The horsemen of Revelation

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

But it is not, or was not unforeseen. For many years Christians wrestled with the promises and prophecies in the Bible that related to the nation Israel, for many were yet unfulfilled. The problem was there was no Israel any more. Since 586 B.C. coupled with 70 A.D. , there was no nation of Israel in Palestine. But God had made promises concerning the Land and the Nation.

Because of this, certain sects of Christians began viewing the Church as Israel. This way they could say God was still faithful to His promises as we, the Church, are spiritual Israel, or the real Israel now. So the promises left to be fulfilled would be fulfilled in the Church.

But, there were other Christians, who said no. God has made promises to the Jews concerning the Land and those will be fulfilled. Just because we don't see Israel today as a nation in Palestine doesn't mean there won't be one. Faithful to the Word of God they were as God once again has established the Jew back in the land.

In other words, the unfulfilled promises given to the Jews demanded that the Jews must be back in the land. That is not unforseen. See (Ezekiel 11:14-17) Thus Israel being established back as a nation in Palestine is by the hand of God and due to prophecy. As prophecy cannot be fulfilled without her in the land.

Good-Ole-Rebel

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Why did you stop at verse 17? Let's read the rest of the passage to see what's supposed to happen:

"When they [the people of Israel] come there [Israel], they will remove from it all its detestable things and all its abominations. I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them; I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, so that they may follow my statutes and keep my ordinances and obey them. Then they shall be my people, and I will be their God. But as for those whose heart goes after their detestable things and their abominations, I will bring their deeds upon their own heads, says the Lord God."

So no, Ezekiel did not predict this state of affairs. He, like all the other prophets, predicted that when the Jews returned to their land, they would re-establish a Torah-based society. Contra these predictions, what instead was established was a secular democratic society. And again, many, many Jews (maybe even a majority) are still scattered throughout the other nations of the world.

Jim25 said:

Unfortunately those bad things have been around for a long time. I believe that God has not made it possible for humans to witness the end of times

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I see It is not only possible, but has been seen by many. Now one can embrace God's new Kingdom on earth as it is in Heaven.

At this very moment, many are building a new world order, some know they are, some are yet to realise that they are part of that process, some will resist that change.

Regards Tony

Left Coast said:

Why did you stop at verse 17? Let's read the rest of the passage to see what's supposed to happen:

"When they [the people of Israel] come there [Israel], they will remove from it all its detestable things and all its abominations. I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them; I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, so that they may follow my statutes and keep my ordinances and obey them. Then they shall be my people, and I will be their God. But as for those whose heart goes after their detestable things and their abominations, I will bring their deeds upon their own heads, says the Lord God."

So no, Ezekiel did not predict this state of affairs. He, like all the other prophets, predicted that when the Jews returned to their land, they would re-establish a Torah-based society. Contra these predictions, what instead was established was a secular democratic society. And again, many, many Jews (maybe even a majority) are still scattered throughout the other nations of the world.

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I stopped there because I knew you would bring up the rest. It does not say, 'when they come there'. It says, "And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence." (Eze. 11:18) This is a true statement. But the first thing they do is come back to the land. And they don't initially come back into a relationship with God. In other words, God brings them back because they must be in the land. Then there will be a time when they will turn back to God while in the land.

.You have this repeated throughout Scripture. Note the order in (Ezekiel 36:17-27) . Israel dwelt in her own land. (17) She defiled it. (17) God scattered her among the heathen. (19) God had pity on them, but not for their sakes. (21,22) God will take them from the heathen back to the land even while they are profaning His name among the heathen. (23-24) Then He will cleanse them after they are in the land and bring them into the New Covenant. (24-27)

Israel is not brought back into the land as a believing people. But they will be one day. But there is time between the bringing back and the rebirth of Israel. That involves the last 7 years known as the Tribulation.

So, as I said before, the bringing back of the Jews to Palestine and creating a nation of Israel in 1948, was very much a fulfillment of prophecy, as Israel must first be back in the land.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Vee said:

I know a lot of people attribute all this to coincidence, but I don't believe in coincidences much, so when I look at many of the things happening the last few decades, and especially in recent years, the image of the horseman of Revelation comes to mind: the fiery horse of warfare, the black horse of famine, the pale horse of death and the white horse of righteousness.
Wars all over the place, food scarcity affecting large amounts of people and disease (we even have a pandemic to worry about at the moment) are all too common. I can't help but see a connection.

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Except we live in one of the most peaceful eras in history, and more people are receiving adequate nutrition than ever before, but other than that, sure.

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

I stopped there because I knew you would bring up the rest. It does not say, 'when they come there'. It says, "And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence." (Eze. 11:18)

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Oh come oooon, Rebel. I was quoting the NRSV, and in fact it does say what I quoted (and it's not the only one). But even in the KJV, there is no natural reading of that text that would lead you to believe there will be some 75+ year hiatus between the phrases, "and they shall come thither," and, "and they shall take away..." No one 100 years ago, reading that text, would have said that's what Ezekiel envisioned. The restoration of the land and the establishment of Torah-based society are of a piece, consistently throughout Biblical prophecy. You're reading back into the text based on what's actually happened and trying to fit history into prophecy. Sorry, that dog don't hunt.

You have this repeated throughout Scripture. Note the order in (Ezekiel 36:17-27) . Israel dwelt in her own land. (17) She defiled it. (17) God scattered her among the heathen. (19) God had pity on them, but not for their sakes. (21,22) God will take them from the heathen back to the land even while they are profaning His name among the heathen. (23-24) Then He will cleanse them after they are in the land and bring them into the New Covenant. (24-27)

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The profaning happens while they're scattered, not once they're back in the land. In fact, the passage says they live in the land after they've been cleansed:

"I will take you from the nations, and gather you from all the countries, and bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will remove from your body the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. I will put my spirit within you, and make you follow my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances. Then you shall live in the land that I gave to your ancestors; and you shall be my people, and I will be your God."

There is no natural reading of the text indicating that they'd be "gathered" (but only half of them), and then 75+ years would go by, and then they'd be "cleansed," and then they'd live in the land (which they've been doing for decades already?). Again, you're trying to fit the square peg of prophecy into the round hole of history.

Left Coast said:

Oh come oooon, Rebel. I was quoting the NRSV, and in fact it does say what I quoted (and it's not the only one). But even in the KJV, there is no natural reading of that text that would lead you to believe there will be some 75+ year hiatus between the phrases, "and they shall come thither," and, "and they shall take away..." No one 100 years ago, reading that text, would have said that's what Ezekiel envisioned. The restoration of the land and the establishment of Torah-based society are of a piece, consistently throughout Biblical prophecy. You're reading back into the text based on what's actually happened and trying to fit history into prophecy. Sorry, that dog don't hunt.



The profaning happens while they're scattered, not once they're back in the land. In fact, the passage says they live in the land after they've been cleansed:

"I will take you from the nations, and gather you from all the countries, and bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will remove from your body the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. I will put my spirit within you, and make you follow my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances. Then you shall live in the land that I gave to your ancestors; and you shall be my people, and I will be your God."

There is no natural reading of the text indicating that they'd be "gathered" (but only half of them), and then 75+ years would go by, and then they'd be "cleansed," and then they'd live in the land (which they've been doing for decades already?). Again, you're trying to fit the square peg of prophecy into the round hole of history.

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Well, first of all you need to get another Bible. I wouldn't trust the NRSV as it is quite a perversion. I didn't say 75 year difference. Neither did I say only half of them. I said Israel is brought back to the land in unbelief. And then later they are brought into a right relationship with God. How much time, I don't know. There will be another gathering of Jews back to the land as not all Jews have returned.

No, I am not reading into the text what has actually happened. The passage says God will bring Israel back, and not because they are being such good children of God. They are not. They profaned his name while among the heathen. He is clear in (Ez. 36:22). "...I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen...." They are brought back first to the land. Then God will cleanse them. (24-25). The point being, they are first brought back to the land in unbelief.

You need to understand that in Bible prophecy not everything is accounted for in one prophecy. Nothing is said in these verses concerning the final 7 years of judgement upon Israel left to fulfill the 70 weeks of prophecy in Daniel. That must occur before Israel is brought into the New Covenant described in (Ez. 36:25-27) So, yes Israel is brought back into the land. And yes she will be brought into the New Covenant. But between that, is the final 7 years of judgement of Daniel.

The 'and' insures that which is spoken of will follow. In Scripture it doesn't insure it follows time wise immediately after. Note this example. Moses is restating Israel's history since coming out of Egypt. In (Deut. 10:5-6) he says, "And I turned myself and came down from the mount, and put the tables in the ark which I had made; and there they be, as the LORD commanded me. And the children of Israel took their journey from Beeroth of the children of Jaakan to Mosera: there Aaron died..."

Moses put the tables in the ark not long after the Exodus. (Ex. 40:20) In (Deut. 10:6) Moses says "And the children of Israel took their journey from Beeeroth of the children of Jaakan to Mosera: there Aaron died..."

But, we know from (Num. 33:38) that Aaron died 40 years after the Exodus. "And Aaron the priest went up into the mount Hor at the commandment of the LORD, and died there, in the fortieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt..."

What does this mean? It means between (Deut. 5) and (Deut. 6) there are 40 years unaccounted for which are separated by 'And'. If all we had was the book of (Deuteronomy), we would not know of those 40 years. But we have other Scripture that explains.

One more example. When Jesus entered His public ministry He began by quoting (Isaiah 61:1-2). See (Luke 4:16-19). (Isaiah 61:2) says, "To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn." But when Jesus quoted it, He stopped in the middle of that verse. He said, (Luke 4:19) "To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord."

If all we had was (Isaiah 61:2), we would believe the year of the Lord and the day of vengeance were done at the same time. But, at present, there is some 2020 years between the two, and they are separated by 'and' in the same sentence of (Is. 61:2). But, we have other Scripture to explain.

My point is that Israel is brought back into the land first in unbelief. Later God will perform that which is necessary for her cleansing and bring her into the New Covenant. How much later? we don't know. But Israel has to be back in the land in order to perform these things. Thus the creation of Israel in 1948 was necessary for prophecy to be fulfilled, but it is not the complete fulfillment yet.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

Well, first of all you need to get another Bible. I wouldn't trust the NRSV as it is quite a perversion. I didn't say 75 year difference. Neither did I say only half of them. I said Israel is brought back to the land in unbelief. And then later they are brought into a right relationship with God. How much time, I don't know. There will be another gathering of Jews back to the land as not all Jews have returned.

No, I am not reading into the text what has actually happened. The passage says God will bring Israel back, and not because they are being such good children of God. They are not. They profaned his name while among the heathen. He is clear in (Ez. 36:22). "...I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen...." They are brought back first to the land. Then God will cleanse them. (24-25). The point being, they are first brought back to the land in unbelief.

You need to understand that in Bible prophecy not everything is accounted for in one prophecy. Nothing is said in these verses concerning the final 7 years of judgement upon Israel left to fulfill the 70 weeks of prophecy in Daniel. That must occur before Israel is brought into the New Covenant described in (Ez. 36:25-27) So, yes Israel is brought back into the land. And yes she will be brought into the New Covenant. But between that, is the final 7 years of judgement of Daniel.

The 'and' insures that which is spoken of will follow. In Scripture it doesn't insure it follows time wise immediately after. Note this example. Moses is restating Israel's history since coming out of Egypt. In (Deut. 10:5-6) he says, "And I turned myself and came down from the mount, and put the tables in the ark which I had made; and there they be, as the LORD commanded me. And the children of Israel took their journey from Beeroth of the children of Jaakan to Mosera: there Aaron died..."

Moses put the tables in the ark not long after the Exodus. (Ex. 40:20) In (Deut. 10:6) Moses says "And the children of Israel took their journey from Beeeroth of the children of Jaakan to Mosera: there Aaron died..."

But, we know from (Num. 33:38) that Aaron died 40 years after the Exodus. "And Aaron the priest went up into the mount Hor at the commandment of the LORD, and died there, in the fortieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt..."

What does this mean? It means between (Deut. 5) and (Deut. 6) there are 40 years unaccounted for which are separated by 'And'. If all we had was the book of (Deuteronomy), we would not know of those 40 years. But we have other Scripture that explains.

One more example. When Jesus entered His public ministry He began by quoting (Isaiah 61:1-2). See (Luke 4:16-19). (Isaiah 61:2) says, "To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn." But when Jesus quoted it, He stopped in the middle of that verse. He said, (Luke 4:19) "To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord."

If all we had was (Isaiah 61:2), we would believe the year of the Lord and the day of vengeance were done at the same time. But, at present, there is some 2020 years between the two, and they are separated by 'and' in the same sentence of (Is. 61:2). But, we have other Scripture to explain.

My point is that Israel is brought back into the land first in unbelief. Later God will perform that which is necessary for her cleansing and bring her into the New Covenant. How much later? we don't know. But Israel has to be back in the land in order to perform these things. Thus the creation of Israel in 1948 was necessary for prophecy to be fulfilled, but it is not the complete fulfillment yet.

Good-Ole-Rebel

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if its about Israel . where does that leave you?

cataway said:

if its about Israel . where does that leave you?

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As a Christian, I am part of the Church.

I'm not sure of the time reference you are asking me of. Where does that leave me now? Or, where does that leave me when the Lord brings Israel back into relationship with Him?

Good-Ole-Rebel

you seem to indicate its all about Israel . Israel, as a nation is out of it . the Jew's are not about to accept Jesus as the christ .

cataway said:

you seem to indicate its all about Israel . Israel, as a nation is out of it . the Jew's are not about to accept Jesus as the christ .

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Well, concerning Old Testament prophecy, it is all about Israel.

As one who believes both the Old and New Testament is the Word of God, Israel is never out of it. Even when there was no Israel as a nation prior to 1948, she was never out of it. Because God is true to His promises. And of course Israel today would agree with you that she will never accept Jesus as the Christ. But there are things that have gone before that are the reason for that. And when the time comes, she will. But...it is going to get much worse before that will happen.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

Well, concerning Old Testament prophecy, it is all about Israel.

As one who believes both the Old and New Testament is the Word of God, Israel is never out of it. Even when there was no Israel as a nation prior to 1948, she was never out of it. Because God is true to His promises. And of course Israel today would agree with you that she will never accept Jesus as the Christ. But there are things that have gone before that are the reason for that. And when the time comes, she will. But...it is going to get much worse before that will happen.

Good-Ole-Rebel

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Acts15:14 Symʹe·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written: 16 ‘After these things I will return and raise up again the tent of David that is fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins and restore it, 17 so that the men who remain may earnestly seek Jehovah, together with people of all the nations, people who are called by my name, says Jehovah, who is doing these things,

cataway said:

Acts15:14 Symʹe·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written: 16 ‘After these things I will return and raise up again the tent of David that is fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins and restore it, 17 so that the men who remain may earnestly seek Jehovah, together with people of all the nations, people who are called by my name, says Jehovah, who is doing these things,

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Good verses.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

Well, first of all you need to get another Bible. I wouldn't trust the NRSV as it is quite a perversion.

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Who told you that? Which version is not a 'perversion'? Are you a KJV-onlyist?

I didn't say 75 year difference.

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It's been 72 years since 1948.

Neither did I say only half of them.

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But that's what's happened.

I said Israel is brought back to the land in unbelief. And then later they are brought into a right relationship with God.

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But the text doesn't say that.

How much time, I don't know. There will be another gathering of Jews back to the land as not all Jews have returned.

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So there will be a 2nd 'gathering'? The text also doesn't say that.

No, I am not reading into the text what has actually happened. The passage says God will bring Israel back, and not because they are being such good children of God. They are not. They profaned his name while among the heathen. He is clear in (Ez. 36:22). "...I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen...." They are brought back first to the land. Then God will cleanse them. (24-25). The point being, they are first brought back to the land in unbelief.

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The events are spoken of as being all of a piece. If I say, "I'm coming to your house, and I'm going to play with your dog, and then then we're going to watch a movie," no natural reading of that would lead you to believe that I mean that years are going to go by between each clause in that sentence. You're trying to read things into the text to make it fit history, when no objective reading of the text would lead you to believe that's what the author was actually predicting.

You need to understand that in Bible prophecy not everything is accounted for in one prophecy.

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I didn't say it had to be limited to one.

Nothing is said in these verses concerning the final 7 years of judgement upon Israel left to fulfill the 70 weeks of prophecy in Daniel. That must occur before Israel is brought into the New Covenant described in (Ez. 36:25-27) So, yes Israel is brought back into the land. And yes she will be brought into the New Covenant. But between that, is the final 7 years of judgement of Daniel.

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I believe you're conflating Revelation in the New Testament with what Ezekiel and Daniel predicted. Which is your prerogative, but it's important to recall what's what.

The 'and' insures that which is spoken of will follow. In Scripture it doesn't insure it follows time wise immediately after. Note this example. Moses is restating Israel's history since coming out of Egypt. In (Deut. 10:5-6) he says, "And I turned myself and came down from the mount, and put the tables in the ark which I had made; and there they be, as the LORD commanded me. And the children of Israel took their journey from Beeroth of the children of Jaakan to Mosera: there Aaron died..."

Moses put the tables in the ark not long after the Exodus. (Ex. 40:20) In (Deut. 10:6) Moses says "And the children of Israel took their journey from Beeeroth of the children of Jaakan to Mosera: there Aaron died..."

But, we know from (Num. 33:38) that Aaron died 40 years after the Exodus. "And Aaron the priest went up into the mount Hor at the commandment of the LORD, and died there, in the fortieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt..."

What does this mean? It means between (Deut. 5) and (Deut. 6) there are 40 years unaccounted for which are separated by 'And'. If all we had was the book of (Deuteronomy), we would not know of those 40 years. But we have other Scripture that explains.

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Fascinating example, but not a prophecy. A history summary is quite a different thing.

One more example. When Jesus entered His public ministry He began by quoting (Isaiah 61:1-2). See (Luke 4:16-19). (Isaiah 61:2) says, "To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn." But when Jesus quoted it, He stopped in the middle of that verse. He said, (Luke 4:19) "To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord."

If all we had was (Isaiah 61:2), we would believe the year of the Lord and the day of vengeance were done at the same time. But, at present, there is some 2020 years between the two, and they are separated by 'and' in the same sentence of (Is. 61:2). But, we have other Scripture to explain.

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Fascinating, but a) Isaiah 61:1-2 isn't a prediction, it's a statement of purpose, and 2) the fact that Jesus interpreted something some way doesn't mean he did so correctly. You may believe that, but I'm under no obligation to do so.

My point is that Israel is brought back into the land first in unbelief. Later God will perform that which is necessary for her cleansing and bring her into the New Covenant. How much later? we don't know. But Israel has to be back in the land in order to perform these things. Thus the creation of Israel in 1948 was necessary for prophecy to be fulfilled, but it is not the complete fulfillment yet.

Good-Ole-Rebel

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I understand your point. And my point is that using Ezekiel alone, or frankly any other prophecy in the Bible, you'd never anticipate this situation. You can read back into the text and squint and look sideways to try to find a way that it fits. And people do. But 100 years ago you wouldn't say this is what Ezekiel was predicting. It's a post hoc interpretation.

Left Coast said:

Who told you that? Which version is not a 'perversion'? Are you a KJV-onlyist?



It's been 72 years since 1948.



But that's what's happened.



But the text doesn't say that.



So there will be a 2nd 'gathering'? The text also doesn't say that.



The events are spoken of as being all of a piece. If I say, "I'm coming to your house, and I'm going to play with your dog, and then then we're going to watch a movie," no natural reading of that would lead you to believe that I mean that years are going to go by between each clause in that sentence. You're trying to read things into the text to make it fit history, when no objective reading of the text would lead you to believe that's what the author was actually predicting.



I didn't say it had to be limited to one.



I believe you're conflating Revelation in the New Testament with what Ezekiel and Daniel predicted. Which is your prerogative, but it's important to recall what's what.



Fascinating example, but not a prophecy. A history summary is quite a different thing.



Fascinating, but a) Isaiah 61:1-2 isn't a prediction, it's a statement of purpose, and 2) the fact that Jesus interpreted something some way doesn't mean he did so correctly. You may believe that, but I'm under no obligation to do so.



I understand your point. And my point is that using Ezekiel alone, or frankly any other prophecy in the Bible, you'd never anticipate this situation. You can read back into the text and squint and look sideways to try to find a way that it fits. And people do. But 100 years ago you wouldn't say this is what Ezekiel was predicting. It's a post hoc interpretation.

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My point is, which I explained, we don't use (Ezekiel) alone. We who are Christian do not use any one piece of prophecy alone. 100 years ago I would have said the same thing as I have the same Bible. The prophecies in (Revelation), (Daniel) and (Ezekiel) all contribute to the future story. As well as all other prophecies in the Bible.

In order for God to accomplish what He wants with Israel, she must be back in the land. That was done in 1948. The way is prepared for God to finish what He started.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

My point is, which I explained, we don't use (Ezekiel) alone. We who are Christian do not use any one piece of prophecy alone. 100 years ago I would have said the same thing as I have the same Bible. The prophecies in (Revelation), (Daniel) and (Ezekiel) all contribute to the future story. As well as all other prophecies in the Bible.

In order for God to accomplish what He wants with Israel, she must be back in the land. That was done in 1948. The way is prepared for God to finish what He started.

Good-Ole-Rebel

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I'm not saying you only have to use Ezekiel. None of the verses shared in this thread predict that decades would pass between Jews being back in their land (kinda, halfway) and them creating a Torah-based society. God is supposedly omnipotent. He doesn't need the "stage to be set." All the passages in question discuss the prediction as one thing, not occurring in stages with decades (centuries?) between.

Can you cite anyone from 100 years ago or earlier who anticipated that Israel would be founded as a secular democratic state and persist for decades that way based on Ezekiel or any other Bible prophecy? That's what was initially alleged here that I replied to.

Left Coast said:

I'm not saying you only have to use Ezekiel. None of the verses shared in this thread predict that decades would pass between Jews being back in their land (kinda, halfway) and them creating a Torah-based society. God is supposedly omnipotent. He doesn't need the "stage to be set." All the passages in question discuss the prediction as one thing, not occurring in stages with decades (centuries?) between.

Can you cite anyone from 100 years ago or earlier who anticipated that Israel would be founded as a secular democratic state and persist for decades that way based on Ezekiel or any other Bible prophecy? That's what was initially alleged here that I replied to.

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I never said 'decades would pass'. But there would be a time element between when the Jews are brought back in unbelief and when they are brought back into a right relationship with God. As I said, there are at least the 7 years of the 70 weeks of Daniel that must be considered. The Jews must be in the land. They will accept the anti-christ. He will make a covenant with them. They will rebuild the temple. etc. etc. It is up to God when that 7 year period begins. It could be 10 or 20 more years. But Israel must be in the land, in unbelief still, for it to begin.

You keep saying a 'Torah-based society'. I am not saying that. I am saying they are brought back into a right relationship with God. This means they recognize Jesus as the Christ.

Actually God does need the stage to be set, because He is the One Who has dictated that is how it will be.

That Israel would become a secular democratic state when she returned in unbelief doesn't matter. That Israel would persist that way for decades or any certain length of time doesn't matter. That she first returned in unbelief does. The time period she would remain that way is up to God. Are you asking for anyone who believes that 100 years ago?

See also (Eze. 22:17-22)

Good-Ole-Rebel

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

I never said 'decades would pass'.

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But decades have passed. So yes, you are saying that the prophecy fits with decades passing between two clauses of a sentence.

But there would be a time element between when the Jews are brought back in unbelief and when they are brought back into a right relationship with God.

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Yes, a "time element" of at least 72 years and counting. And the Jews are only half "brought back."

As I said, there are at least the 7 years of the 70 weeks of Daniel that must be considered.

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No idea what this has to do with the price of tea in China.

The Jews must be in the land. They will accept the anti-christ. He will make a covenant with them. They will rebuild the temple. etc. etc. It is up to God when that 7 year period begins. It could be 10 or 20 more years. But Israel must be in the land, in unbelief still, for it to begin.

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None of that has to do with what I asked.

You keep saying a 'Torah-based society'. I am not saying that.

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I am saying it because the text says it. What do you think "the statutes and ordinances of the Lord" are, to a Jew 2,500 years ago? The Law. The Torah.

I am saying they are brought back into a right relationship with God. This means they recognize Jesus as the Christ.

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Neither Ezekiel nor Daniel say that, of course. And it has nothing to do with what I asked.

Actually God does need the stage to be set, because He is the One Who has dictated that is how it will be.

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He can make it happen all in one go. Like how his prophets predicted it.

That Israel would become a secular democratic state when she returned in unbelief doesn't matter. That Israel would persist that way for decades or any certain length of time doesn't matter.

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They do if you care what the text says.

That she first returned in unbelief does. The time period she would remain that way is up to God. Are you asking for anyone who believes that 100 years ago?

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What I asked was pretty clear. Who 100 years ago believed that Ezekiel was predicting that decades would pass between Israel kinda-sorta coming back into the land and the establishment of Torah-based society?

See also (Eze. 22:17-22)

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Yet another passage that combines God gathering Israel with cleansing her, in one thought. Contra your interpretation.

Left Coast said:

But decades have passed. So yes, you are saying that the prophecy fits with decades passing between two clauses of a sentence.



Yes, a "time element" of at least 72 years and counting. And the Jews are only half "brought back."



No idea what this has to do with the price of tea in China.



None of that has to do with what I asked.



I am saying it because the text says it. What do you think "the statutes and ordinances of the Lord" are, to a Jew 2,500 years ago? The Law. The Torah.



Neither Ezekiel nor Daniel say that, of course. And it has nothing to do with what I asked.



He can make it happen all in one go. Like how his prophets predicted it.



They do if you care what the text says.



What I asked was pretty clear. Who 100 years ago believed that Ezekiel was predicting that decades would pass between Israel kinda-sorta coming back into the land and the establishment of Torah-based society?



Yet another passage that combines God gathering Israel with cleansing her, in one thought. Contra your interpretation.

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Again, it doesn't matter how much time has passed. The time element is unknown. That there will be time between Israel coming back to the land in unbelief, and when they are placed in a right relationship with God is what is important. That there is at least 7 years is assured as the Tribulation will last 7 years.

This has nothing to do with the price of tea in China. It has everything to do with Israel being brought back into the land in unbelief and a time period existing before they are brought back into a relationship with God. I already explained to you that at lest 7 years must occur between those events.

It has everything to do with what you asked. Time is involved for Israel, who is in unbelief and in the land, to accept the anti-christ, to enjoy a peace of 3 and 1/2 years, to rebuild the temple, then to experience the treachery of the anti-christ, etc. etc. before she as a nation turns back to God.

Was Israel in Jesus day a 'Torah based society'? Does this 'Torah based society of yours include Jesus as the Christ?

Well, neither does (Ezekiel) or (Daniel) say anything about a so called "Torah based Society". Yet you keep repeating it. What now? Being brought into a right relationship with God is what it is all about. That is the whole point of God bringing Israel back.

I am showing you how His prophets predicted it. You just refuse to believe it. Why? Because you don't believe any of it anyway. Either way.

Because I know what the text says, it doesn't matter.

Again, no one is saying 'decades would pass'. Just because decades have passed is immaterial. The point is that Israel is brought back to the land in unbelief. And there would be a time element existing before she would be brought back into a right relationship with God. How much time is immaterial. And a Torah based society are your words. Not the Bibles.

Did you read (Eze. 22:17-22)? No, you didn't. There is nothing there of God gathering and cleansing Israel at the same time. God gathers her and then brings her through judgement because she is not cleansed. Note (22:24) "Thou art the land that is not cleansed, nor rained upon in the day of indignation."

In other words, time is involved when once Israel is brought back into the land and when she is brought back into a right relationship with God. She was brought back in 1948. She is in the land in unbelief. She still must go through the last 7 years of Daniels 70th week.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

Again, it doesn't matter how much time has passed. The time element is unknown. That there will be time between Israel coming back to the land in unbelief, and when they are placed in a right relationship with God is what is important.

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You would never derive that from a natural reading of Ezekiel. That's been my whole point this entire time.

That there is at least 7 years is assured as the Tribulation will last 7 years.

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Your belief in a 7 year Tribulation comes from your interpretation of a completely different prophesy, completely different book, different author, different time period, and different language. And the passages in Revelation you derive then from have nothing to do with Israel being a secular democracy for nearly a century before they establish Torah over their society again.

This has nothing to do with the price of tea in China. It has everything to do with Israel being brought back into the land in unbelief and a time period existing before they are brought back into a relationship with God. I already explained to you that at lest 7 years must occur between those events.

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You stated your opinion, you didnt really 'explain.' Nothing in Ezekiel or Daniel about any of that.

It has everything to do with what you asked. Time is involved for Israel, who is in unbelief and in the land, to accept the anti-christ, to enjoy a peace of 3 and 1/2 years, to rebuild the temple, then to experience the treachery of the anti-christ, etc. etc. before she as a nation turns back to God.

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But Ezekiel says they won't live in the land till they're cleansed? Again, you're trying to fit history into prophecy, when it should work the other way if the prophecies are accurate.

Was Israel in Jesus day a 'Torah based society'?

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Essentially, yep. Complicated by Roman rule, though.

Does this 'Torah based society of yours include Jesus as the Christ?

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I didn't write the Torah. It's not "mine." The Torah was written and implemented in ancient Israel hundreds of years before there was a guy named Jesus. Ezekiel and Daniel knew nothing about him, as he didnt exist yet.

Well, neither does (Ezekiel) or (Daniel) say anything about a so called "Torah based Society". Yet you keep repeating it. What now?

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You didnt answer my question that would have helped answer your question here. What were the "statutes and ordinances of the Lord," to a Jew 2,500 years ago?

Being brought into a right relationship with God is what it is all about. That is the whole point of God bringing Israel back.

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Yes, and how are Jews brought into a right relationship to God, according to their Scriptures? By following the Torah.

I am showing you how His prophets predicted it. You just refuse to believe it. Why? Because you don't believe any of it anyway. Either way.

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No, I'm sorry, you simply aren't. You're declaring things, and I keep bringing you back to what the texts actually do and don't say.

Again, no one is saying 'decades would pass'. Just because decades have passed is immaterial.

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If you think it's immaterial, you've missed the entire point of my participation in the thread.

Did you read (Eze. 22:17-22)? No, you didn't. There is nothing there of God gathering and cleansing Israel at the same time. God gathers her and then brings her through judgement because she is not cleansed. Note (22:24) "Thou art the land that is not cleansed, nor rained upon in the day of indignation."

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The verses, for the kids at home:

"The word of the Lord came to me: Mortal, the house of Israel has become dross to me; all of them, silver, bronze, tin, iron, and lead. In the smelter they have become dross. Therefore thus says the Lord God: Because you have all become dross, I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem. As one gathers silver, bronze, iron, lead, and tin into a smelter, to blow the fire upon them in order to melt them; so I will gather you in my anger and in my wrath, and I will put you in and melt you. I will gather you and blow upon you with the fire of my wrath, and you shall be melted within it. As silver is melted in a smelter, so you shall be melted in it; and you shall know that I the Lord have poured out my wrath upon you."

The Bible often uses the metaphor of God's judgment as a "refining fire" which is painful but ultimately purifying. See, for example, Malachi 3 or Zechariah 13.

In other words, time is involved when once Israel is brought back into the land and when she is brought back into a right relationship with God. She was brought back in 1948. She is in the land in unbelief. She still must go through the last 7 years of Daniels 70th week.

Good-Ole-Rebel

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She's kinda in the land. Half in, half out. And has been there 72 years. When no prophecy says that such a length of time will pass, they all speak of it as one process. Which is why you can't point to anyone 100 years ago who interpreted the prophecies you are to predict what has actually happened.

InChrist said:

I think any form of replacement theology, as you have expressed above and as the Watchtower teaches shows a lack of rightly dividing the word of God’s truth.....

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What did you find as replacement theology at www.jw.org________________