So Jesus is not God?

moorea944 said:

To even think that is very disrespectful to our Heavenly Father.

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So it's disrespectful to think God did something ... good? Explain that.

And yet somehow it's not disrespectful to Jesus; to think that Jesus did it?

moorea944 said:

So..... why did the Messiah have to die. The book of Hebrews (along with many other books) tells us that. Read Hebrews chapters 8-10. We also compare Hebrews 9 with Lev 16. Paul is comparing the two High Priests.

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That's all absolutely correct what you're saying about Jesus being the high priest etc. Of course. But there is more to it than just that.

Jesus is the mediator between God and man. (1 Timothy 2:5) Literally, God became a man to create unity between Himself and us. This is what God came to do. To make us "one" with Him as Jesus is "one" with the Father. (John 17:11) So, the point of Jesus is; He comes to bring us back to the Father. We sinned, we turned our backs on God. (Isaiah 53:6) God wanted His family back. God came in the form of a human being; so that we could all be reconciled and returned back to Him as we were originally designed to be with Him forever.

So God was literally in Christ reconciling the world to Himself again.

2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Again, in Colossians 1:19-22 we see that it pleased all the fullness (of God) to dwell in Jesus and through Jesus reconcile all things to Himself.

Colossians 1:19-22
19 because in him it did please all the fulness to tabernacle,
20 and through him to reconcile the all things to himself -- having made peace through the blood of his cross -- through him, whether the things upon the earth, whether the things in the heavens.
21 And you -- once being alienated, and enemies in the mind, in the evil works, yet now did he reconcile,
22 in the body of his flesh through the death, to present you holy, and unblemished, and unblameable before himself,


So in conclusion; all of the fullness of God was living in Jesus and reconciling the world to Himself again.

74x12 said:

So it's disrespectful to think God did something ... good? Explain that.

And yet somehow it's not disrespectful to Jesus; to think that Jesus did it?

That's all absolutely correct what you're saying about Jesus being the high priest etc. Of course. But there is more to it than just that.

Jesus is the mediator between God and man. (1 Timothy 2:5) Literally, God became a man to create unity between Himself and us. This is what God came to do. To make us "one" with Him as Jesus is "one" with the Father. (John 17:11) So, the point of Jesus is; He comes to bring us back to the Father. We sinned, we turned our backs on God. (Isaiah 53:6) God wanted His family back. God came in the form of a human being; so that we could all be reconciled and returned back to Him as we were originally designed to be with Him forever.

So God was literally in Christ reconciling the world to Himself again.

2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Again, in Colossians 1:19-22 we see that it pleased all the fullness (of God) to dwell in Jesus and through Jesus reconcile all things to Himself.

Colossians 1:19-22
19 because in him it did please all the fulness to tabernacle,
20 and through him to reconcile the all things to himself -- having made peace through the blood of his cross -- through him, whether the things upon the earth, whether the things in the heavens.
21 And you -- once being alienated, and enemies in the mind, in the evil works, yet now did he reconcile,
22 in the body of his flesh through the death, to present you holy, and unblemished, and unblameable before himself,


So in conclusion; all of the fullness of God was living in Jesus and reconciling the world to Himself again.

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What do you mean by "literally"? God changed into Jesus?

moorea944 said:

[ Would you explain how he created all things? as it says in Colossians 1:14-19 - considering the fact that YHWH said he made all things, and was alone and by himself in Isaiah 44:24]
God created all things, Jesus didnt. He wasnt born yet. And there was no reason that he would pre-exist. Look at all of the people in the OT. What were they told of a "coming Messiah"? Were they told that the coming Messiah was already here? No, of course not. Read Deut 18 and 2 Sam 7.

Are you reading the KjV? In that version is a bad translation. It says by him, the org language reads, in him.... God created everything for his son. There is no reason that Jesus should have made everything. His Father did.


[You could also consider the fact that the voice in the wilderness that was to prepare the way for YHWH turns out to be John the baptist in the NT. Matthew 3:1-3 Mark 1:2-3]
It doesnt say Yahweh, it says Lord. But even if it did say Yahweh, that's fine too. This is our Heavenly Father's plan and purpose. Jesus is part of that. God has sent his son out to the world to reconcile the world back to God. (2 Corin 5)

[Now I ask you - Who did John (the voice in the wilderness) prepare the way for? Was it not YHWH as foretold?}
Jesus is doing the work of his father. Stop making Jesus into God. Really not quit sure why you feel that Jesus has to be God... Are you being told that in your church? Just curious....

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Well said, moorea944... you are quite right.

But I see you start to understand how foolishness brings on aggression... as you said I was doing: ‘Stop making Jesus into God’, you said. It sounds aggressive no matter the mindset you wrote it in!!

Yes, moorea944... even Jesus Christ became ‘righteously aggressive’:

• ‘“You unbelieving and perverse generation," Jesus replied, "how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me."’

I’m eager to see what else you believe. I’m seeking others who believe as I do but others start out on track but then veer away into Fantasia land.

Soapy said:

Well said, moorea944... you are quite right.

But I see you start to understand how foolishness brings on aggression... as you said I was doing: ‘Stop making Jesus into God’, you said. It sounds aggressive no matter the mindset you wrote it in!!

Yes, moorea944... even Jesus Christ became ‘righteously aggressive’:

• ‘“You unbelieving and perverse generation," Jesus replied, "how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me."’

I’m eager to see what else you believe. I’m seeking others who believe as I do but others start out on track but then veer away into Fantasia land.

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No aggression here my friend. Have a wonderful day.

moorea944 said:

[ Would you explain how he created all things? as it says in Colossians 1:14-19 - considering the fact that YHWH said he made all things, and was alone and by himself in Isaiah 44:24]
God created all things, Jesus didnt. He wasnt born yet. And there was no reason that he would pre-exist. Look at all of the people in the OT. What were they told of a "coming Messiah"? Were they told that the coming Messiah was already here? No, of course not. Read Deut 18 and 2 Sam 7.

Are you reading the KjV? In that version is a bad translation. It says by him, the org language reads, in him.... God created everything for his son. There is no reason that Jesus should have made everything. His Father did.


[You could also consider the fact that the voice in the wilderness that was to prepare the way for YHWH turns out to be John the baptist in the NT. Matthew 3:1-3 Mark 1:2-3]
It doesnt say Yahweh, it says Lord. But even if it did say Yahweh, that's fine too. This is our Heavenly Father's plan and purpose. Jesus is part of that. God has sent his son out to the world to reconcile the world back to God. (2 Corin 5)

[Now I ask you - Who did John (the voice in the wilderness) prepare the way for? Was it not YHWH as foretold?}
Jesus is doing the work of his father. Stop making Jesus into God. Really not quit sure why you feel that Jesus has to be God... Are you being told that in your church? Just curious....

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I believe there are 141x when "en" was translated as by. i.e. Acts 20:19 (But since I am not a Greek expert, I won't argue that the primary meaning is not in.) However, you have to deal with some other verses anyway. So let's look at some others.

All things came into being through him, and without him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. John 1:3

He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world knew him not, he came unto his own, and his own received him not. John 1:10 (Also, In what way would he be coming to his own, if he was just a man that would be born?)

Of course the Messiah wasn't already there. YHWH created everything, and later manifest himself as the Messiah. (i.e. God appeared in a body.) The fulness of the Godhead was dwelling in that body. Colossians 2:9

If he wasn't God in some way - then explain the following:

1. How would he raise up his own body if they destroyed it? John 2:19-21

2. How was he before Abraham? John 8:56-58

2a. For that matter, how was he even before John the Baptist? John 1:30

3. Why did he say? - You are from beneath; I am from above: You are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that you shall die in your sins: for if you believe not that I am, you shall die in your sins. John 8:23-24

4. Why did Thomas call him God? John 20:28

5. What about Hebrews 1:6 - why would all the angels of God worship him?

6. How is he the first and the last, considering YHWH said he was the first and the last? Revelation 1:17-18 vs. Isaiah 44:6

7. YHWH said there was no saviour beside him. Isaiah 43:11 So what about this verse - Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour ... who gave himself (note singular) for us, that he might redeem us ... Titus 2:13-14

TrueBeliever37 said:

I believe there are 141x when "en" was translated as by. i.e. Acts 20:19 (But since I am not a Greek expert, I won't argue that the primary meaning is not in.) However, you have to deal with some other verses anyway. So let's look at some others.

All things came into being through him, and without him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. John 1:3

He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world knew him not, he came unto his own, and his own received him not. John 1:10 (Also, In what way would he be coming to his own, if he was just a man that would be born?)

Of course the Messiah wasn't already there. YHWH created everything, and later manifest himself as the Messiah. (i.e. God appeared in a body.) The fulness of the Godhead was dwelling in that body. Colossians 2:9

If he wasn't God in some way - then explain the following:

1. How would he raise up his own body if they destroyed it? John 2:19-21

2. How was he before Abraham? John 8:56-58

2a. For that matter, how was he even before John the Baptist? John 1:30

3. Why did he say? - You are from beneath; I am from above: You are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that you shall die in your sins: for if you believe not that I am, you shall die in your sins. John 8:23-24

4. Why did Thomas call him God? John 20:28

5. What about Hebrews 1:6 - why would all the angels of God worship him?

6. How is he the first and the last, considering YHWH said he was the first and the last? Revelation 1:17-18 vs. Isaiah 44:6

7. YHWH said there was no saviour beside him. Isaiah 43:11 So what about this verse - Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour ... who gave himself (note singular) for us, that he might redeem us ... Titus 2:13-14

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Thanks for your post!! Great questions!! Thank you my friend.

One of the things that we have to understand about in scripture is God manifestation. God manifesting Himself in someone or a multitude. He did that with Jesus, angels, prophets, etc. But... it doesnt make them God. God didnt change into Jesus or someone else. Plus, we shouldnt use words that arent in the bible, like "incarnate". I think when we bring in our own words, we can easily go down a different path, example.. the trinity....

So your question... I'm only going to answer some of them, putting together some notes on the other questions for another time.


[1. How would he raise up his own body if they destroyed it? John 2:19-21]
Jesus wasnt saying that "he" was going to do it. He was quoting God, his Father. I'll get more into it later......

[2. How was he before Abraham? John 8:56-58]
He wasnt. But he was preached about before Abraham. God's Word, the Gospel, was taught to people "before" Abraham. Adam & Eve knew about a coming Messiah too.

[2a. For that matter, how was he even before John the Baptist? John 1:30]
John was born first, but Jesus was known about before John. Again, the Gospel. The coming Messiah.


[4. Why did Thomas call him God? John 20:28]
Thomas didnt call Jesus God. Our English bibles says he did. I'll explain...

Much of the significance of the various titles is lost when the Greek Old Testament (Septuagint) is compared with the Hebrew. In the NT, the words Adon, Adoni, Elohim, Yahweh, EL, Eloah are rendered by two words, Theos and Kurios, or, as they appear in our version, "God" and "Lord".

Thus Theos does duty equally for Elohim (Matt 4 v 7, 10), El (Matt 27 v 46) and Yahweh (John 6 v 45) . Kurios is also used for these same words. In Mark 12 v 36 , it is used for Adon, while in Luke 20 v 37 it does duty for Yahweh. In Romans 9 v 29 and James 5 v 4 the title "Lord of Sabaoth" is used, but the powerful, prophetic import of the title is lost in the Greek by the use of Kurios instead of Yahweh.

In example of John 20 v 28, the word for God is Theos, standing in for Elohim. The word "Elohim" is used in many different ways in the bible. People were called "Elohim" alone with Angels too. Judges and the Levi Priesthood were called the Elohim because they were the ones that brought the word of God to the people.

Thomas was calling Jesus, you are my Lord and my Elohim. Also keep in mind that Christ also carries and bares God's name too dont forget. Scripture tells us that Jesus came in the "name of God".

Look at Moses. God wanted him to be God or a god to Pharaoh. So Moses was Elohim to Pharaoh.
Read John 10 v 31-42.

[5. What about Hebrews 1:6 - why would all the angels of God worship him?]
Jesus was always worshiped to the Glory of God. Plus, Jesus was eventually "made" above the angels. He was never equal with them. He was born lower and then above them.
No one... ever worshiped Jesus as God himself.

[6. How is he the first and the last, considering YHWH said he was the first and the last? Revelation 1:17-18 vs. Isaiah 44:6]
Did you actually read Isaiah 44? Read it again.

Jesus IS the first and the last. He is the "firstfruits". Absolutely!!

But in Isaiah, God is talking to Israel. They were worshiping other Gods and also Jacob. (v5). Not putting their God first... So how does answer that? He tells Israel that He is the only God for them to worship. He is the first God and will be the last God for them. He is the only God. Very simple answer.

Hope this helps. I"ll post the other answers when ready. Thanks again.

moorea944 said:

Thanks for your post!! Great questions!! Thank you my friend.

One of the things that we have to understand about in scripture is God manifestation. God manifesting Himself in someone or a multitude. He did that with Jesus, angels, prophets, etc. But... it doesnt make them God. God didnt change into Jesus or someone else. Plus, we shouldnt use words that arent in the bible, like "incarnate". I think when we bring in our own words, we can easily go down a different path, example.. the trinity....

So your question... I'm only going to answer some of them, putting together some notes on the other questions for another time.


[1. How would he raise up his own body if they destroyed it? John 2:19-21]
Jesus wasnt saying that "he" was going to do it. He was quoting God, his Father. I'll get more into it later......

[2. How was he before Abraham? John 8:56-58]
He wasnt. But he was preached about before Abraham. God's Word, the Gospel, was taught to people "before" Abraham. Adam & Eve knew about a coming Messiah too.

[2a. For that matter, how was he even before John the Baptist? John 1:30]
John was born first, but Jesus was known about before John. Again, the Gospel. The coming Messiah.


[4. Why did Thomas call him God? John 20:28]
Thomas didnt call Jesus God. Our English bibles says he did. I'll explain...

Much of the significance of the various titles is lost when the Greek Old Testament (Septuagint) is compared with the Hebrew. In the NT, the words Adon, Adoni, Elohim, Yahweh, EL, Eloah are rendered by two words, Theos and Kurios, or, as they appear in our version, "God" and "Lord".

Thus Theos does duty equally for Elohim (Matt 4 v 7, 10), El (Matt 27 v 46) and Yahweh (John 6 v 45) . Kurios is also used for these same words. In Mark 12 v 36 , it is used for Adon, while in Luke 20 v 37 it does duty for Yahweh. In Romans 9 v 29 and James 5 v 4 the title "Lord of Sabaoth" is used, but the powerful, prophetic import of the title is lost in the Greek by the use of Kurios instead of Yahweh.

In example of John 20 v 28, the word for God is Theos, standing in for Elohim. The word "Elohim" is used in many different ways in the bible. People were called "Elohim" alone with Angels too. Judges and the Levi Priesthood were called the Elohim because they were the ones that brought the word of God to the people.

Thomas was calling Jesus, you are my Lord and my Elohim. Also keep in mind that Christ also carries and bares God's name too dont forget. Scripture tells us that Jesus came in the "name of God".

Look at Moses. God wanted him to be God or a god to Pharaoh. So Moses was Elohim to Pharaoh.
Read John 10 v 31-42.

[5. What about Hebrews 1:6 - why would all the angels of God worship him?]
Jesus was always worshiped to the Glory of God. Plus, Jesus was eventually "made" above the angels. He was never equal with them. He was born lower and then above them.
No one... ever worshiped Jesus as God himself.

[6. How is he the first and the last, considering YHWH said he was the first and the last? Revelation 1:17-18 vs. Isaiah 44:6]
Did you actually read Isaiah 44? Read it again.

Jesus IS the first and the last. He is the "firstfruits". Absolutely!!

But in Isaiah, God is talking to Israel. They were worshiping other Gods and also Jacob. (v5). Not putting their God first... So how does answer that? He tells Israel that He is the only God for them to worship. He is the first God and will be the last God for them. He is the only God. Very simple answer.

Hope this helps. I"ll post the other answers when ready. Thanks again.

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For question :
#1) Your answer is incorrect. He did say he would raise it up. (Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up. John 2:19

#2) You say he wasn't before Abraham. That is in contradiction to him saying he was before Abraham. John 8:56-58 (Why do you think they tried to stone him after he said it?)

#3) John didn't say he was known before me. He said he was before me. John 1:15

#4) You say Thomas didn't call him God. Elohim, Kurios, and God are all words in different languages used to mean God. He said "my God". And he is YHWH. YHWH is what Thomas was calling him when he said my Lord. As you said they replaced his name and the word God with the other words being used here.

#6) The first and the last means the same thing in both instances. Why do you work so hard to change what the scriptures say?

I have followed this thread for a little while and see that both sides are not genuous.

TrueBeliever37 said:

For question :
#1) Your answer is incorrect. He did say he would raise it up. (Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up. John 2:19

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Jesus was not speaking about ‘himself’, but rather, the ‘Temple of his Soul’... the ‘temple’ he was establishing: ‘The Church’ (‘Congregation of believers in YHWH the only true God, and, Jesus Christ, whom YHWH sent’)

You will see that after Jesus died, the disciples went BACK TO THEIR DAY JOBS... The church had indeed been ‘destroyed’, the congregation scattered and disbelieving: if their master was dead, how could he have been the saviour and yet the Romans still ruled over them and emburdening them with taxes and slavery???

So, after three days, Jesus reappeared and indeed REBUILT the congregation of Believers...: the church.

Please understand, and check for yourself: Jesus was always speaking SPIRITUALLY... death and raising up of his body is NOT SPIRITUAL but EARTHLY/FLESHLY. Clearly, scriptures tells us that it was THE FATHER who raised up Christ Jesus.

T’ain’t hard to understand if you are not trying to be disingenuous!!!

#2) You say he wasn't before Abraham. That is in contradiction to him saying he was before Abraham. John 8:56-58 (Why do you think they tried to stone him after he said it?)

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I’ve posted this answer many time’s but it seems none of the readers understand...

‘BEFORE’ is a term in Jewishness which means ‘GREATER THAN’. The Jews asked Jesus if he was greater than their forefather, Abraham. Indeed, Abraham was great... he was ‘Before’ them!!! Abraham showed faith greater than all others of the forefathers....

But even great as Abraham was, he foresaw through the word of God, that the SAVIOUR would come through the seed of his loins... ONE GREATER THAN HE would be the deliverer... and he saw, through spiritual vision, that great day when the saviour would appear.

And that saviour we know as JESUS.

So, we know also that the saviour was a MAN in the lineage of the patriarch, Abraham! But more than that, in the lineage of the FIRST MAN, Adam, but one who DID NOT SIN!!!

In addition, the Jews took up stones to stone Jesus EXACTLY BECAUSE Jesus implied that he was GREATER THAN (BEFORE) Abraham.

Think about it?!!! Jesus, a man some knew from their neighbourhood (maybe!) just said he was greater than they greatest patriarch!!! They would be incensed, livid, enraged... that someone could make such a claim... he must be bedevilled... deserving of death .. by the only method allowed by the romans: stoning - for the sin of blasphemy!!!

#3) John didn't say he was known before me. He said he was before me. John 1:15

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Same answer as above.... The scriptures repeats itself exactly to justify and validate itself. There is no other reason why John the Baptist was written about stating he was [six months] older than Jesus... think of another reason that fits the scenario..? (and yet... though cousins, John did not know Jesus - nor Jesus know John!!)

#4) You say Thomas didn't call him God. Elohim, Kurios, and God are all words in different languages used to mean God. He said "my God". And he is YHWH. YHWH is what Thomas was calling him when he said my Lord. As you said they replaced his name and the word God with the other words being used here.

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‘My God’ is ‘personal’... is it not curious that no other of the ten disciples even flinched that Thomas thought that Jesus was ALMIGHTY GOD!!!!? And, Jesus told Thomas that he, Jesus, was ‘NOT A SPIRIT’... and we know that ALMIGHTY GOD is SPIRIT!!! Ha!, and scriptures tells us that “No one has seen God at any time”!!

Oh boy! Such a perverse generation of false believers - Jesus said... a spirit of deception will be sent unto you such that you will believe the lie!!!

#6) The first and the last means the same thing in both instances. Why do you work so hard to change what the scriptures say?

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Verses and words have been added (and taken away) from the scriptures by trinitarian translators ... the translators were, um..., persuaded..., to make the changes so that the authorities could uphold the “Holy Roman Catholic Church” creed, underwritten by the very enemies of the Christian Faith, and impressed upon by their pretentious believer, Emperor Constantine (forget the details... leave it at his door!!) concerning the belief in the trinity ideological doctrine.

Many of the alterations in REVELATION have been WELL DOCUMENTED. Only someone who is still trying to prove that FALLACY is TRUTH would resort to such ridiculous attempts at proof by untruth!!!!

I can’t show you the information right now because it’s a whole since I had to present it. If you require it then I can look it up for a later post.

TrueBeliever37 said:

For question :
#1) Your answer is incorrect. He did say he would raise it up. (Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up. John 2:19

#2) You say he wasn't before Abraham. That is in contradiction to him saying he was before Abraham. John 8:56-58 (Why do you think they tried to stone him after he said it?)

#3) John didn't say he was known before me. He said he was before me. John 1:15

#4) You say Thomas didn't call him God. Elohim, Kurios, and God are all words in different languages used to mean God. He said "my God". And he is YHWH. YHWH is what Thomas was calling him when he said my Lord. As you said they replaced his name and the word God with the other words being used here.

#6) The first and the last means the same thing in both instances. Why do you work so hard to change what the scriptures say?

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[1) Your answer is incorrect. He did say he would raise it up. (Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up. John 2:19 ]

How is Jesus going to raise himself up if he's really dead!! Think about it. How many times did people say things figuratively, allegoracally, etc. Look at the parables!! So with that in mind, let me say this...

Then the supposed indication is that Jesus was not really dead, that he somehow consciously directed his own resurrection? That would make this death completely fake and therefore meaningless. Whoever is suggesting this has some kind of Hollywood frame of reference where fake appears real. If Jesus did not really die - which means ceasing to live (not just the body shell or just a hand or just an ankle or just one's consciousness but the whole being) - then the entire gospel is a lie and his death was meaningless... just for show to fool the shallow-minded.
There is no sacrifice if Jesus did not die... completely and just Hollywood special effects.


[#2) You say he wasn't before Abraham. That is in contradiction to him saying he was before Abraham. John 8:56-58 (Why do you think they tried to stone him after he said it?)]

No, again, your thinking with a trinitarian mindset. Jesus did not exist before Abraham, the Gospel was. He had every right to say that too. People knew about a coming Messiah before Jesus was even born.

[#3) John didn't say he was known before me. He said he was before me. John 1:15]

Ughhhh....

[#4) You say Thomas didn't call him God. Elohim, Kurios, and God are all words in different languages used to mean God. He said "my God". And he is YHWH. YHWH is what Thomas was calling him when he said my Lord. As you said they replaced his name and the word God with the other words being used here.]

Again, no. "God" is not Yahweh. "GOD" is.... Thomas and everyone else knew that Jesus was not GOD. You have to stop making Jesus God or Yahweh himself. God did not change into a man. That is totally degrading to our Heavenly Father!!!

#6) The first and the last means the same thing in both instances. Why do you work so hard to change what the scriptures say?

lol... Read Isaiah again... Like I said before , your already going into the bible with a Trinitarian mindset. And that's not good. Think of God manifestation, then you'll start to get it. Isaiah is totally different from what Jesus was talking about!!

So... do you also mean that since Jesus was called Lord and God was called Lord, that makes Jesus God? lol, I hope not!! .....

TrueBeliever37 said:

You are probably correct about most of Christianity. However some believe different. I for instance believe the Messiah was born of a woman, born under the law as stated in Galatians 4:4

I don't believe in a Trinity. I believe the Holy Spirit is the Father. I believe God made himself a body to dwell in and sacrifice for the sins of the world. He called that body his Son. After all he was the Father of that body. But it wasn't another person. It was YHWH himself dwelling in that body.

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I believe also when Jesus says He doesn't know the expiration of the world it means that He isn't in the body as Jesus at that time a billion years from now.

I believe that you are believing something contrary to what God says.

I believe the Paraclete often referred to as the Holy Spirit is God in believers whereas the Father is just the Spirit of God alone.

I believe that view reflects what God says in the scriptures.

IndigoChild5559 said:

I'll leave this for Christians to respond to.

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I believe you will find the Trinity in IS. 9: 6 & 7.

Riders said:

It is Christ who died, but it is God that shows the love. How? By having His son die! So it is the Son who shows greater love for mankind than God, because there is no greater love than dying for your friends!!

How is that possible when you accept as authoritative that God is the source of love, the servant is not greater than the master and "Jesus is not God"? How does Jesus show greater love than the source of love itself?

In other words, because Jesus laid down his life for the world this proves he is God? Then how is it that there are hundreds of thousands of other folks who also laid down their lives to save other people as well??????????

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I believe they did not lay down their lives as God to save people from their sins. There is only one God and there is only one who has said so and laid done His life in Israel.

Muffled said:

I believe you will find the Trinity in IS. 9: 6 & 7.

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How is the trinity in Isaiah? Or in any chapter for that matter of fact. Just curious on you see that one...

We also have to remember that the trinity was "added into" religion around 325ish AD from Emp Constantine and the council of Nicea. No one in scripture, esp in the OT believed in a triune God. Our Heavenly Father is one God. No other Gods beside him. Isaiah also says that.

Soapy said:

I have followed this thread for a little while and see that both sides are not genuous.

Jesus was not speaking about ‘himself’, but rather, the ‘Temple of his Soul’... the ‘temple’ he was establishing: ‘The Church’ (‘Congregation of believers in YHWH the only true God, and, Jesus Christ, whom YHWH sent’)

You will see that after Jesus died, the disciples went BACK TO THEIR DAY JOBS... The church had indeed been ‘destroyed’, the congregation scattered and disbelieving: if their master was dead, how could he have been the saviour and yet the Romans still ruled over them and emburdening them with taxes and slavery???

So, after three days, Jesus reappeared and indeed REBUILT the congregation of Believers...: the church.

Please understand, and check for yourself: Jesus was always speaking SPIRITUALLY... death and raising up of his body is NOT SPIRITUAL but EARTHLY/FLESHLY. Clearly, scriptures tells us that it was THE FATHER who raised up Christ Jesus.

T’ain’t hard to understand if you are not trying to be disingenuous!!!


I’ve posted this answer many time’s but it seems none of the readers understand...

‘BEFORE’ is a term in Jewishness which means ‘GREATER THAN’. The Jews asked Jesus if he was greater than their forefather, Abraham. Indeed, Abraham was great... he was ‘Before’ them!!! Abraham showed faith greater than all others of the forefathers....

But even great as Abraham was, he foresaw through the word of God, that the SAVIOUR would come through the seed of his loins... ONE GREATER THAN HE would be the deliverer... and he saw, through spiritual vision, that great day when the saviour would appear.

And that saviour we know as JESUS.

So, we know also that the saviour was a MAN in the lineage of the patriarch, Abraham! But more than that, in the lineage of the FIRST MAN, Adam, but one who DID NOT SIN!!!

In addition, the Jews took up stones to stone Jesus EXACTLY BECAUSE Jesus implied that he was GREATER THAN (BEFORE) Abraham.

Think about it?!!! Jesus, a man some knew from their neighbourhood (maybe!) just said he was greater than they greatest patriarch!!! They would be incensed, livid, enraged... that someone could make such a claim... he must be bedevilled... deserving of death .. by the only method allowed by the romans: stoning - for the sin of blasphemy!!!


Same answer as above.... The scriptures repeats itself exactly to justify and validate itself. There is no other reason why John the Baptist was written about stating he was [six months] older than Jesus... think of another reason that fits the scenario..? (and yet... though cousins, John did not know Jesus - nor Jesus know John!!)


‘My God’ is ‘personal’... is it not curious that no other of the ten disciples even flinched that Thomas thought that Jesus was ALMIGHTY GOD!!!!? And, Jesus told Thomas that he, Jesus, was ‘NOT A SPIRIT’... and we know that ALMIGHTY GOD is SPIRIT!!! Ha!, and scriptures tells us that “No one has seen God at any time”!!

Oh boy! Such a perverse generation of false believers - Jesus said... a spirit of deception will be sent unto you such that you will believe the lie!!!


Verses and words have been added (and taken away) from the scriptures by trinitarian translators ... the translators were, um..., persuaded..., to make the changes so that the authorities could uphold the “Holy Roman Catholic Church” creed, underwritten by the very enemies of the Christian Faith, and impressed upon by their pretentious believer, Emperor Constantine (forget the details... leave it at his door!!) concerning the belief in the trinity ideological doctrine.

Many of the alterations in REVELATION have been WELL DOCUMENTED. Only someone who is still trying to prove that FALLACY is TRUTH would resort to such ridiculous attempts at proof by untruth!!!!

I can’t show you the information right now because it’s a whole since I had to present it. If you require it then I can look it up for a later post.

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Soapy,
Some of your comments are very rude. And your answers are so ludicrous that I'm not even going to discuss it with you any further.

moorea944 said:

[1) Your answer is incorrect. He did say he would raise it up. (Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up. John 2:19 ]

How is Jesus going to raise himself up if he's really dead!! Think about it. How many times did people say things figuratively, allegoracally, etc. Look at the parables!! So with that in mind, let me say this...

Then the supposed indication is that Jesus was not really dead, that he somehow consciously directed his own resurrection? That would make this death completely fake and therefore meaningless. Whoever is suggesting this has some kind of Hollywood frame of reference where fake appears real. If Jesus did not really die - which means ceasing to live (not just the body shell or just a hand or just an ankle or just one's consciousness but the whole being) - then the entire gospel is a lie and his death was meaningless... just for show to fool the shallow-minded.
There is no sacrifice if Jesus did not die... completely and just Hollywood special effects.


[#2) You say he wasn't before Abraham. That is in contradiction to him saying he was before Abraham. John 8:56-58 (Why do you think they tried to stone him after he said it?)]

No, again, your thinking with a trinitarian mindset. Jesus did not exist before Abraham, the Gospel was. He had every right to say that too. People knew about a coming Messiah before Jesus was even born.

[#3) John didn't say he was known before me. He said he was before me. John 1:15]

Ughhhh....

[#4) You say Thomas didn't call him God. Elohim, Kurios, and God are all words in different languages used to mean God. He said "my God". And he is YHWH. YHWH is what Thomas was calling him when he said my Lord. As you said they replaced his name and the word God with the other words being used here.]

Again, no. "God" is not Yahweh. "GOD" is.... Thomas and everyone else knew that Jesus was not GOD. You have to stop making Jesus God or Yahweh himself. God did not change into a man. That is totally degrading to our Heavenly Father!!!

#6) The first and the last means the same thing in both instances. Why do you work so hard to change what the scriptures say?

lol... Read Isaiah again... Like I said before , your already going into the bible with a Trinitarian mindset. And that's not good. Think of God manifestation, then you'll start to get it. Isaiah is totally different from what Jesus was talking about!!

So... do you also mean that since Jesus was called Lord and God was called Lord, that makes Jesus God? lol, I hope not!! .....

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#1) The Spirit of YHWH was dwelling in that body and saying that, and YHWH did raise the body up. He was YHWH manifest in a fleshly body. The flesh couldn't raise itself up, the Spirit raised the body up. But he was still YHWH, and it was his body that he had made to dwell in and sacrifice. Why could he not call the body his son if he wanted to? - (He fathered it.)

#2) Wrong again - I am not a Trinitarian. The eternal Spirit in the body was before Abraham. That was how he could say it. YHWH has always existed - even before he took on a body to sacrifice.

#3) As YHWH he was before John also.

#4) There are not both lower case and upper case "God" in the original. You are making a distinction that is not there. He didn't change into a man. He remained an eternal Spirit. But he made himself a human body to dwell in and sacrifice for our sins. He called his body - the Son.

#5) Impossible for me to be using a Trinitarian mindset - Once again, I am not a Trinitarian. I don't believe in 3 persons in the Godhead. I only believe in one God. An eternal Spirit that wrapped himself in flesh, and shed the blood of that flesh for mankind.

TrueBeliever37 said:

Soapy,
Some of your comments are very rude. And your answers are so ludicrous that I'm not even going to discuss it with you any further.

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Your reply is typical of those who see the truth and cannot refute it.

Instead of showing what you believe to be wrong, you resort to ‘I won’t reply’... I notice trinity believers will argue the toss with all-comers who have wrongful beliefs but run away from those who show the truth... as you are doing now!!

Stand up to what you believe and show me my wrong... or else KNOW that it is truth I speak and write.

I ask you these few:

• Did YHWH make this Jesus that we know, ‘Both Lord and Christ’?
• Did YHWH give Jesus that we know, the power and authority to rule for a thousand years?
• Does Jesus that we know ‘hand back power and authority’ to YHWH after the thousand years?
• Does Jesus finally acquire RULERSHIP over CREATION ... and if so, how is Jesus gifted with it if he is ALMIGHTY GOD who is RULER OVER HEAVEN - greater kingdom which incorporates the lesser kingdom of creation?

So... do you also mean that since Jesus was called Lord and God was called Lord, that makes Jesus God? lol, I hope not!! .....

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“Lord” is nothing to do with being “God”.

“Lord” is anyone who is master...

In the heirarchy of powers, a “Lord” is a SUB-title... like “Lord GOD”: ‘Master God’.

Do we not call a Judge, ‘Lord’?

Do we not call a great person (in old language), ‘My Lord’? (‘What is your bidding, my Lord!?’)

But, moreover,:

• "Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah." (Acts 2:36)

Soapy said:

“Lord” is nothing to do with being “God”.

“Lord” is anyone who is master...

In the heirarchy of powers, a “Lord” is a SUB-title... like “Lord GOD”: ‘Master God’.

Do we not call a Judge, ‘Lord’?

Do we not call a great person (in old language), ‘My Lord’? (‘What is your bidding, my Lord!?’)

But, moreover,:

• "Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah." (Acts 2:36)

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I know that. Not understanding why your telling me what I just said...

moorea944 said:

I know that. Not understanding why your telling me what I just said...

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Hi....

I’m not telling YOU that!

I’m QUALIFYING what you said.

Your reply should have said: “Exactly”!

It’s not a competition to tell the truth... Jesus said that we should have love among the true brethren and by this love we are known to be brethren of his.

If I offend you by re-enforcing this much of your view... then I apologise. Perhaps I should have glorified you first.

But in any case then:

• I agree that your belief in this matter is true and righteous...
• ‘Lord’ does not imply ‘God’, for even ‘God’ made Jesus ‘Lord’...
• and if Jesus was ‘MADE to be Lord’ then Jesus cannot have been ‘God’...
• for certainly, he did not make himself so but by another...
• and for sure, ‘God’ does not make himself LESS THAN WHAT HE IS -
• so twice over:

TrueBeliever37 said:

#1) The Spirit of YHWH was dwelling in that body and saying that, and YHWH did raise the body up. He was YHWH manifest in a fleshly body. The flesh couldn't raise itself up, the Spirit raised the body up. But he was still YHWH, and it was his body that he had made to dwell in and sacrifice. Why could he not call the body his son if he wanted to? - (He fathered it.)

#2) Wrong again - I am not a Trinitarian. The eternal Spirit in the body was before Abraham. That was how he could say it. YHWH has always existed - even before he took on a body to sacrifice.

#3) As YHWH he was before John also.

#4) There are not both lower case and upper case "God" in the original. You are making a distinction that is not there. He didn't change into a man. He remained an eternal Spirit. But he made himself a human body to dwell in and sacrifice for our sins. He called his body - the Son.

#5) Impossible for me to be using a Trinitarian mindset - Once again, I am not a Trinitarian. I don't believe in 3 persons in the Godhead. I only believe in one God. An eternal Spirit that wrapped himself in flesh, and shed the blood of that flesh for mankind.

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TrueBeliever, answering room your five points is summed as in thus:

• Having an appearance of truth but that which, under examination, does not confirm to complete truth
• Falsehood does not dwell with Truthhood just as Darkness does not dwell with Lightness

Who is speaking to whom in these verses (your #4):

• ‘A body YOU made for me’
• ‘This is my Son in whom I am well pleased’
• ’Stephen, seeing by vision heaven open, saw Jesus STANDING at the right hand of God [who was seated on the throne]‘

TrueBeliever, your belief is not the truth and expressing yourself in the manner you believe only causes distress to those trying to understand the immortal and immutable God:

• Immortal God cannot die
  
• Immutable God cannot change

Jesus Christ was a man, made in the manner of Adam: Holy and Sinless through the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit OF ALMIGHTY GOD: YHWH.

Adam was SON OF GOD (Luke 3:38)... he sinned and fell away from true sonship... therefore ANOTHER was brought up to REPLACE HIM: Jesus...

Throughout Scriptures the theme of ‘The first Son (The most beloved at first) always sins and another is brought up to become the fathers MOST BELOVED’ is expressed. Even the first KING and the first NATION (Jews)... but even this son sinned... EXCEPT JESUS.

Jesus: the SECOND and LAST ADAM. What is it to be called an ‘Adam’?

It means: a human Being. Jesus called himself: ’Son of Man’!

What does it mean to be called a ’Son of God’?

It means: He who does the works of his God! Jesus called himself, ‘Son of God’!

TrueBeliever, Jesus is MAN in holiness and sinlessness. YHWH is the Father in SPIRIT unto whom Jesus obeys and is awarded KINGSHIP over ALL CREATION: “GOD over Creation”... not “GOD over HEAVEN”.

By the way, where did you learn the falsehood that you present as your belief? Did you imagine it for yourself or were you taught it by another from youth or from adult stage?