Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
And then we took advantage of them. We chain them, muzzle them. They have to dance to our tunes. Others may differ, as my son and daughter do. Generally not preferred among Hindus for cleanliness' sake.
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Clearly, God wants us to worship Him, but why should we?
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
It is quite simple, Trailblazer. No one has proved the existence of any God or Allah. It is those who come up with religions or later the priests who want you to worship their God/Allah and at the same time give them importance and tith. It is fake from beginning to end, but peoples' own uncertainties and fears keep it going.
Messianic Israelite
Active Member
Worship helps directs our priorities correctly because it recognises Yahweh as the Supreme Being of the Universe. Without worship, we would indeed forget our responsibilities as human beings to keep the commandments of Yahweh as did the 10 Northern Tribes. Worship whether learning of Yahweh's ways on the Holy Days, singing songs to Him or prayer, help us to be joyful. By learning of Yahweh's ways we can grow spiritually as indicated in Jeremiah 12:15-17 where we can be built up. Singing helps us to be joyful. When I have free time I grab a songbook and start singing songs to Yahweh and this makes me joyful as indicated by Psalm 105:43. Just as we teach our children to be generous, thankful and grateful, so Yahweh expects this of His earthly creation and we can achieve this through worship, "giving thanks always for all things in the name of our Master Yahshua the Messiah to Yahweh, even the Father" --Ephesians 5:20.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
I have posted sooooo many times....
the rotation we see when we look up.....IS the proof
science would take us back to the primordial singularity
we when get 'there'
science stops
it has to
prior to the singularity is the void
and with out something to put in the petri dish
without some kind of equation
science halts
but we don't have to
if science is true and an object at rest will remain that way
SOMETHING had to set the singularity into expansion
more so......
science would have you believe.....for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction
the BANG would have been ONE pulse
a single hollow sphere of energy expanding equally
but that is NOT what we see when we look up
we see spin, rotation ,spiral, orbits
THAT motion would need to be in play BEFORE the expansion begins
and that would be the pinch and snap of God's Fingers (so to speak)
upon the primordial singularity
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
It never does that. It always progresses, finding new things each day. Abrahamic religions petrified with Moses.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
nay....without a fingerprint, a photo, an equation or repeatable experiment
science must halt
as for Moses.....nay again
Moses was halted on the near side of the River
and not allowed to proceed
but the belief in God walks on
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
And I didn't say that all things like this are lies. But I don't believe these "messengers" to have any more valid, demonstrable reasons for believing the way that they do than does a religious-based terrorist suicide-bomber who believes so strongly he is willing to sacrifice his life. The same caliber of evidence would be presented by BOTH people. Your "messengers" and suicide bombers.
I want you to look at the part in blue above, and then...
And ...look at the blue part in the quote above. What is going on here? I didn't give motives, but gave motives that made sense? What are you talking about?
Is this you assuming that these people simply MUST get something in return for their suffering and sacrifice? Do you and I even live on the same planet? What cosmic controlling force do you believe there is that forces rewards into the hands of people who have suffered or made sacrifice? I am not understanding why you believe such a thing is somehow "necessary." This seems very, very strange... borderline delusional.
If, however, you are asking why someone would make such a sacrifice or endure such suffering when there was no reward to actually be had... we ALREADY COVERED THIS. All a person has to do is BELIEVE that there is a reward being offered (by God, or whoever) and it is done. You have people doing wacky things, truly believing they are going to be "rewarded" by some magical being. Like suicide bombers who are told they will be standing next to their God in the afterlife, exalted above others because of their "brave" sacrifice. It's lunacy.
Then this should be provable somehow, shouldn't it? Shouldn't they have some trait of their being that we can examine to verify that they aren't entirely human? Do they have human DNA? Were they born from two human parents and bear their genetic lineage markers? If they are indistinguishable in every way from a normal human being except that they say some interesting things... then how in the world would I be expected to accept them as "more than human?" By their words alone? Not good enough. Not good enough at all. This shouldn't be good enough for anyone.
Can these "messengers" prove such things? If they cannot, and do not come equipped to do so except by their assertions that they are such, then God has failed them - especially if He wants them to succeed in conveying the spiritual importance of their "message." There needs to be a way to satisfy the skeptics - who will always exist. If God cannot provide this, then He has a big problem. Although I suppose if all He wants is an army of gullible people in heaven then maybe there is no problem.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I have mentioned it, but I cannot post all of it on this forum.If there is evidence, then why don't you mention it and settle the matter for all times.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I am not selling any snake oil, but here is what Baha'u'llah said about the "evidence."
“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106
Indeed, given all the evidence God provided, God is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.
People just have to look at the evidence. If they don't look they cannot blame God for that.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
1. The person himself is his testimony, i.e., accept what a person says, don't question him/her. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of the Ahmadiyyas said that he is the Mahdi, the returning Jesus. But Bahaullah too claims to be the returning Jesus. So two people cannot be the returning Jesus. So, whom should one believe if there is no other evidence is offered by any of the two persons, but only assertions..
2. Next to his own testimony is what he/she says. There is no difference between what the two people said. Both stood for universal peace and brotherhood. Actually all religious leaders and even charlatans spout these grandiloquent ideas.
So what person has said has no value at all, just word salad.
2. Next to his own testimony is what he/she says. There is no difference between what the two people said. Both stood for universal peace and brotherhood. Actually all religious leaders and even charlatans spout these grandiloquent ideas.
So what person has said has no value at all, just word salad.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The person Himself is certainly NOT His testimony; it is who He is as a person, His character, and we know that by His deeds. As Jesus said in Matthew 7:16 "Ye shall know them by their fruits."
“Man is like unto a tree. If he be adorned with fruit, he hath been and will ever be worthy of praise and commendation. Otherwise a fruitless tree is but fit for fire.” Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 257
“The essence of faith is fewness of words and abundance of deeds; he whose words exceed his deeds, know verily his death is better than his life.” Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 156
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad can say whatever he wants to say, but that means nothing unless he can back up his words with evidence and deeds. I cannot say what he did because I am not familiar with him, but I know that Baha'u'llah backed up everything He said with deeds and he provided evidence of who He was.
We should never believe someone is a Messenger of God based upon his personal testimony, we need to investigate his claim and ascertain if it is the truth.
"Bahá’u’lláh asked no one to accept His statements and His tokens blindly. On the contrary, He put in the very forefront of His teachings emphatic warnings against blind acceptance of authority, and urged all to open their eyes and ears, and use their own judgement, independently and fearlessly, in order to ascertain the truth. He enjoined the fullest investigation and never concealed Himself, offering, as the supreme proofs of His Prophethood, His words and works and their effects in transforming the lives and characters of men." Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 8
I don’t think Bible God needs us to serve Him, because:
The God who made the world and all things in it, he, being Lord of heaven and earth, doesn't dwell in temples made with hands, neither is he served by men's hands, as though he needed anything, seeing he himself gives to all life and breath, and all things.
Acts 17:24-25
How could we worship God, who has given everything to us and everything we have is because of God? We could only give back something He has given.
I think the meaning of Exodus 20:1-3 and Matthew 4:10 is that we should not keep anyone else as our God.
And if one wants to serve God, this is the best way:
Pure religion and undefiled before our God and Father is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.
James 1:27
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
What fruits? Another Abrahamic religion among the many already existing.
Just like Bahaollah and Bahais, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad or his combine are also backing up their words with evidence (AS IF BAHAOLLAH PROVIDED ANY) and deeds. If you do not know anything about Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, then on what basis you are rejecting him. You are rejecting a mahdi, a mssenger of Allah.
I find the third paragraph strange. You are accepting the personal testimony of Bahaollah. Why are you rejecting the personal testimony of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad? Ahmadiyyas too are not afraid of any investigation, offering, as the supreme proofs of Prophethood of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, His words and works and their effects in transforming the lives and characters of men.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I reject him because I already accept Baha'u'llah and there cannot be two Messiahs.
Also, and this is huge, there is NO WAY he fulfilled the biblical prophecies since Baha'u'llah fulfilled them and there cannot be 'double fulfillment.' The Messiah was to come out of Persia, not India. In addition, Ahmad did not found a new religion, but rather his religion is a sect of Islam.
Although Ghulam Ahmad is revered by Ahmadi Muslims as the promised Messiah and Imām Mahdi, Muhammad nevertheless remains the central figure in Ahmadiyya Islam.[22][23] Ghulam Ahmad's claim to be a subordinate (ummati) prophet within Islam has remained a central point of controversy between his followers and mainstream Muslims, who believe Muhammad to be the last prophet. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad - Wikipedia
Ahmad in no way fits into the biblical prophecies or the prophecies of other religions. The Messiah was to be the Promised One of all ages and bring all religions together, not champion one religion like Islam. Also, claiming to be the second coming of Christ and not fulfilling any of the OT or NT prophecies won't work.
As I said before, I do not accept the personal testimony of Baha'u'llah as evidence. I told you what I consider evidence - His character, His revelation and His Writings.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, that is not true at all. The same caliber of evidence would not be presented at all.
You gave motives as to why religious leaders would DO what they DO, but you gave no motives as to why the Messengers of God would DO what they DO.
I am assuming all people do something for a REASON. I am asking why ‘you think’ anyone would do what these individuals do, suffer and sacrifice their lives. All human behavior has a motive.
Fine, if that is what you think, that they only imagined they heard from God… Case closed. I am not going to attempt to convince you that they REALLY heard from God.
That is an interesting question… How would we know? My, oh my, God sure works in strange ways. As luck, or God, would have it I just got a post from a Baha’i on another forum that might help you understand this. As you read this, please bear in mind that ‘according to my beliefs’ a Messenger of God is a Manifestation of God and His appearance on earth is for all intents and purposes God’s appearance on earth. The reason that it is not OBVIOUS who these individuals are is because God wants us to (1) do a lot of homework by looking at all the evidence, and (2) exercise our free will to choose to believe or not believe.
"... While the Manifestations of God all shine with the splendours of God's Revelation, they can reveal themselves in only two ways. The first is to appear in their naked glory. Should this happen, all human beings would witness their awesome power, would bow before their majesty and would submit their will entirely to God's Viceregent on earth. People would thus become puppets of God and lose their free will; all would follow the path of truth, not by their own volition but by capitulating to the irresistible power of the Manifestation of God. By the force of God's command, all would obey His teachings and would live a goodly life; no one would have the choice to be different. The Covenant of God would become meaningless because if there were no free will, how could human beings observe the laws of the Covenant? Should the Manifestation of God appear in this way and expose His august attributes to the generality of mankind, people would be devoid of the power of creativity, becoming creatures whose actions were controlled from a higher realm. The principles of justice and of reward and punishment would then become inoperative in society. The only other way that the Manifestations of God can reveal themselves, which ensures the preservation of human free will, is to conceal their divine power behind the veil of human characteristics. Although they possess majestic, divine qualities, it is, according to Bahá’u’lláh, against the law of God for them to reveal these to the generality of mankind....... Through this method people can exercise their free will to accept or to reject the Message of God, to live in accordance with His teachings or to disobey Him." Adib Taherzadeh, The Child of the Covenant, p. 17
The Messengers could prove who they are if they wanted to, but they do not want to, for the reasons given above in that long quotation. In fact, after certain Muslims called Baha’u’llah a false prophet, offered to perform ANY miracle they chose, anything. But what happened is that the Muslims backed down and failed to show up on that day. I guess they did not really want to know who He was.
It is no problem for God at all that there are skeptics because God does not NEED the belief of the skeptics. In fact, God does not need the belief of anyone because God is fully self-sufficient and fully self-sustaining…. It is humans who need God, not God who needs humans. Why would an omnipotent God need humans for anything?
It is no skin off an omnipotent God’s nose if only a few people recognize His Messenger, and that is exactly what happens when that Messenger first appears, and for a long time afterwards. That was the case with Jesus, very few people recognized Him at first, so why would it be any different for Baha’u’llah?
Whenever a new Messenger of God appears, he is the narrow gate by which we can attain eternal life. That is why Jesus said…
Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
There are many reasons why only a few people recognize the new Messenger when He appears on earth. The main reason is because most people are steeped in religious tradition or attached to what they already believe. Secondly, if they do not have a religion, most people are suspicious of the new religion and the new Messenger. Thirdly, if they are atheists they do not like the idea of Messengers of God or they think they are all phonies. You are a case in point.
It is difficult to get through the narrow gate because one has to be willing to give up all their preconceived ideas, have an open mind, and think for themselves. Most people do not normally embark upon such a journey. They go through the wide gate, the easy one to get through – their own religious tradition or their own preconceived ideas about God or no god. They follow the broad road that is easiest for them to travel.
It is not the gullible people who will end up in heaven; it is the wise people who actually think for themselves and look at the evidence instead of discounting it out of hand.
“If a man were to declare, ‘There is a lamp in the next room which gives no light’, one hearer might be satisfied with his report, but a wiser man goes into the room to judge for himself, and behold, when he finds the light shining brilliantly in the lamp, he knows the truth!” Paris Talks, p. 103
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
According to the Bible, and I agree, God takes note of those who mistreat animals and will have a reckoning. The Garden of Eden was a paradise. Adam and Eve were told to eat fruit. (Except that one fruit.) Mankind was not given permission to kill and eat animals until Noah's time.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
It is true that the Bible says that Adam and Eve lived in the area of what is now called Persia, or Iran. But what makes you say that the Messiah was to come out of Persia? Not speaking of India now.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I notice you did not respond to what I said about cats. Although it was cute and funny, it was also quite serious. Cats have largely domesticated us, not the other way around. Comments?
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
I agree cats are very cute. I may not like to keep one as a pet but sure would love them to visit us frequently when we could feed them. Indians generally avoid keeping cats as pets for the danger of their harming infants and children. I think that may not be very true.