Good-Ole-Rebel
Well-Known Member
Well, that is my whole point. You don't believe the Bible. Which is fine, go ahead and believe your faith. But don't lie to yourself and others that you believe the Bible.
Good-Ole-Rebel
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Does God welcome everyone into heaven?
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
Well, that is my whole point. You don't believe the Bible. Which is fine, go ahead and believe your faith. But don't lie to yourself and others that you believe the Bible.
Good-Ole-Rebel
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, I do not believe everything that is in the Bible, but I believe some things that are in the Bible.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I think that at the end of the day it all boils down to what makes the most sense to us and what fits with our values and what consider important in life. That is why I am a Baha'i and not some other religion, but also it is because I see evidence that the Baha'i Faith is the truth from God whereas i do not see that much evidence for the other religions. I mean we know that Baha'u'llah existed and we have depictions of His character from people who knew Him, we have a chronicled history of the Faith from 1844 onward,and we have the original writings of Baha'u'llah. So even without the fulfillment of prophecies we have so much more verifiable evidence than any other religion in history.
You get so hung up in so many details of the Bible and the Baha'i Faith that you cannot see the forest through the trees, so there will always be a reason for you to have doubts, apparently. It is kind of like opening up this country. Eventually the governments will have to move forward, but right now they are lost in a morass of details.
ManSinha
Well-Known Member
Do not make absolute statements - the Sikh religion has as much if not more verifiable evidence since we had 10 Masters over a 230 year period - all of whom wrote their teachings down which are then compiled and collected and cross verified. You have been told before - you are indoctrinated and blind to what else is around - believe in the Baha'i faith by all means if you would like but do not make generalized statements that are false and can be easily debunked. I can go on and rip every argument you make apart - but that is not my intention. Just stop making generalized statements as if they were true.
Face the fact - the Baha'i religion is not the panacea you claim it to be. No religion is. The amount of time you spend here proselytizing and defending your beliefs speaks volumes. You have gotten negative posts disagreeing with you from virtually every poster you engage with. It should tell you something.
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Good-Ole-Rebel
Well-Known Member
Because you don't believe the Bible, whatever 'things' you say you believe, mean nothing concerning the Bible. They are just 'your' selection to support your other faith. In other words, you use the Bible but do not believe the Bible.
You don't get to choose what is true and what is not true in the Bible. And how you make such a choice, you still fail to explain. Just because that is what your faith says doesn't explain how you or they arrive at the conclusion that the Cross is true, but the Resurrection is not. It is inconsistent.
Good-Ole-Rebel
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
There is a difference in the saved--part of the Matthew 25 discussion--which in context is about Jewish people in the end times, by the way (servants). Atheists cannot love their enemies and atheists break around 6 of the 10 commandments of Exodus 20 right off the bat.
John 3:16 says nothing about a free gift? "Whoever trusts Jesus shall NOT be condemned!"
GardenLady
Active Member
I think it was CS Lewis who wrote something like, "in the end, there are those who say too God "thy will be done," and those to whom God says "thy will be done." The latter being those who reject him. I do not think that those who actively reject him will be saved.
There is an aspect of this whole thing that I find very challenging. Some people are born with significant cognitive damage and do not have the capacity for understanding or faith. Does God exclude these people from salvation because of their lack of capacity (which is a feature of their physical bodies and not their souls)? I think not.
But on the other hand, there are people who have a complete lack of empathy and spend their lives being destructive to all around them -- we commonly call them psychopaths. Some experts say psychopaths are born and sociopaths are made. If someone is truly born a psychopath due to something wrong in their brain, des this mitigate culpability for their lack of empathy and their destructive behavior? Surely Ted Bundy knew that what he was doing was wrong, didn't he?
There is an aspect of this whole thing that I find very challenging. Some people are born with significant cognitive damage and do not have the capacity for understanding or faith. Does God exclude these people from salvation because of their lack of capacity (which is a feature of their physical bodies and not their souls)? I think not.
But on the other hand, there are people who have a complete lack of empathy and spend their lives being destructive to all around them -- we commonly call them psychopaths. Some experts say psychopaths are born and sociopaths are made. If someone is truly born a psychopath due to something wrong in their brain, des this mitigate culpability for their lack of empathy and their destructive behavior? Surely Ted Bundy knew that what he was doing was wrong, didn't he?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
You do not know what I believe or my intentions.
I believe that the Bible is God's greatest testimony to His creatures, but I do not believe that everything recorded in it "literally" happened.
Apparently, you are unable to see anything from any perspective except your own.
No, I do not get to choose what is true and what is not in the Bible, but I do get to choose what "I believe" is true and not in the Bible because I have free will.
I explained how and why I made the choice, more than once.
What my Faith says explains is how I arrived at the conclusion that the Cross is true, but the "bodily" Resurrection is not true. That is because "I believe" that the Prophet Founder of my Faith knew what happened at the cross and what happened afterwards.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Atheists can love their enemies and they can follow most of the 10 commandments.
Do Christians follow all of those commandments, what about keeping the Sabbath Day holy?
But that is not what John 3:16 says: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
That is a guarantee of everlasting life for believers, but it says nothing about atheists being condemned.
Good-Ole-Rebel
Well-Known Member
I do know what you believe and your intentions as you have stated them. Your other faith, as opposed to the Christian faith, dictates your belief concerning the Bible. You want to say you believe the Bible, but that is a lie. You don't believe the Bible. You use the Bible to support your 'other faith'. You select certain things you want to believe and reject certain you don't. What ever supports your faith.
You choose to believe your 'prophet' who is the founder of your faith. Good. No problem. You believe his writings. That means you don't believe the Bible. And that is no problem until you say you believe the Bible. Because you don't.
Are you that dependent on the Christian faith to the degree that you cannot let go and embrace your other faith? Are you scared to really say I don't believe the Bible? Don't be scared. The God of the Bible doesn't care for your middle of the road confession anyway. (Rev. 3:15-16) I know, I know, that is just one of those verses you don't believe.
Good-Ole-Rebel
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The only reason I believe in the Bible at all is because my religion teaches that the Bible is God's greatest testimony to His creatures. I would never believe in the Bible otherwise because it has so many inconsistencies, and let's be honest: there is no way the NT is the exact words of Jesus and it might not even be close. That opens up a Pandora's Box.
Obviously, I am not going to convince you that I believe in the Bible because you can only see it from your own perspective, so it is best that I now bow out gracefully.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
God decided on the requirements because God sets the standards for human behavior by revealing teachings and laws through the Messengers. God does not demand that we follow His teachings or laws but rather we do so by virtue of our own free will, so that is why demands are not the same as requirements. I hope that makes sense.
From my perspective, humanity has what it needs for the next 1000 years, from the year 1852, so there is no need for another Messenger until at least that date. What happened in the past is irrelevant because the past is gone.And now we have to wait another what 800 years? Seriously? And by that time, another messenger might come, what if that person is a native indian, an Eskimo which live in a remote area and hardly anyone on Earth understand their language... the whole setup really doesn't make a lot of sense. It is so convenient the way it works, that one would assume that humans came up with it.
It is interesting that you mention where the next Messenger might appear, because God sends these Messengers to the location and culture that in most need at that time in history. That is why the Bab and Baha’u’llah appeared in Persia:
PERSIA’S STATE OF DECADENCE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NINETEENTH CENTURY
That description begins on page xxxviii and concludes on page xlviii.
You are funny Nimos.
Why would we need 10000s of Baha’u’llah’s around the world? Think about it. If they all came with the same message and said exactly the same things, why would we need more than one? If people find it near impossible to believe one Messenger, think how much more difficult it would be to believe in so many more. I mean each and every one would have to provide proof of who they were.The reason why God does not send more than one Messenger at a time is not because of God’s capabilities, it is because we only need one Messenger at a time. Baha’u’llah’s only job was to receive the revelation from God, organize a small community of followers, proclaim His message to the kings and rulers and religious leaders of His time, and to write scriptures. After He died, it was the responsibility of the Baha’is to carry the message far and wide, so they were like the messengers for the Messenger and that is how the message spreads.The only reason one could really argue why there would be so many contradictions, is because they would not be send from God, Therefore it is conveniently claimed that there can't be another messenger before another 1000 years have passed. Just think about, how amazingly lucky it is that God's capabilities are not able to handle more than one messenger at the time. While at the same time, the person chosen to be this messenger can't proof it. To me it almost sounds too good to be true.
Baha’u’llah did offer proof to support His claim, it is just too bad more people do not look at it and take it seriously because it is almost too good to be true.
If we had more Messengers then they would all have to provide proof and it would be an even bigger problem than we have now with one Messenger to investigate.
That is precisely why nobody should ever allow other people to convince them that a religion is true but rather they should conduct their own independent investigation.
Nope, it would not mean that Nimos. If you chose Baha’i it would only mean that is the most current religion that God has revealed, but any of the others that were revealed by God were also true. Their spiritual teachings would all be true because those are eternal, but their primary message and their social teachings and laws would no longer be pertinent to this age in history since they were revealed for a different age in history.So lets say that throughout history, there have been 100000 religions. You choose to be a Bahai, that basically mean that 99999 of all religions have been wrong. How incredible lucky is that.
So based upon what I just said, the most obvious approach to any true (divinely revealed) religion is that they are true; however, only the most current religion is ‘pertinent’ to the current age we live in.
Of course they would have to provide a lot of evidence, not just make a claim. Anyone can make a claim. I see people on this forum who ‘claim’ that God communicated with them in some way, but why would I believe that? All I have is their claim.
Screw God just because he does not do what you want Him to do?
Think about it logically Nimos. Let’s say that God did everything that everyone wanted Him to do instead of what He chose to do. That would be putting humans on a level with God, as if they know more about what is best for them than God knows. I mean if God is All-Knowing and All-Wise, God has to know more than any human about what is best for humans.
I understand your sentiments about the do-nothing God. The only reason I bother with God is because I know He exists and I know what He revealed through Baha’u’llah is in my best interest and in the best interests of humanity. If I did not believe that I would be an atheist, given how I feel about God much of the time. But as you can see by the threads I post, I am struggling to make sense of God, what he is really like and what he is doing or not doing.
I do not think you ever saw me blaming atheists for being atheists. I just try to explain how I believe God operates. God does not ‘come on down’ to Earth to help humans out, except when He sends Messengers, but God knows that people will help other people when they need help, because they do.
God would only be thinking that if it did not go as God knew it would go, but that is impossible, because God is All-Knowing. God’s Plan has to unfold according to God’s will because God’s will cannot be thwarted.
If God was thinking anything, He would be thinking “I thought the Baha’is would have done a lot better in getting the message out." In that case, God would have to hold the next Messenger back until the message of Baha’u’llah succeeded in accomplishing what it was intended to accomplish.
God has not done anything except for creating intelligent humans. God cannot take any credit for any cures for disease humans come up with.
I never said that God can’t do anything; I only ever said that God does not do everything He can do. God choosing to use Messengers is not because of a limitation, it is because of a choice God makes. That does not mean God is incompetent, except in the eyes atheists.
On another note, I just saw Denmark on the world news. They said your country was one of the first to open because you did it right and showed some pictures of the children. I wish I could say the same for the United States. We are still in a mess and I do not see an end in sight yet. I am hunkered down at home except for two brief trips to the grocery store a week. I do not mind being at home, I actually prefer it, but not at the expense of all the suffering of others. It’s almost unreal.
Nimos
Well-Known Member
Would you agree to the following. Pretty much any human that have ever lived on Earth, unless there is something genetically wrong with them, aim towards living a happy and fulfilling life?
So certain things we can consider as being not desired, like suffering, being psychologically hurt, starving, sick and ultimately die as well as a lot of other things which also reduce quality of life. Now lets say that everything opposite to these improve the quality of life.
With that in mind, how do you think that affects us when we have to make choices?
So lets say you have to go from point A to point B, you can either go straight ahead through a burning building, which will reduce the trip by 10 minutes or you could choose to go around which take a bit longer?
Going through the burning building is not really a choice, because you know that it will hurt you and again reduce quality of life.
So what we can do is apply heaven and hell to this scenario, so the burning building is hell and going around is heaven. Basically there is no difference. The idea behind heaven and hell is exactly that, you play on peoples fear.
Again no one forces or demand that you go around the burning building, the choice is yours. But if everything that improve your quality of life is found by going around it, obviously that would be the correct choice. The difference here is that "God" have made the scenario and packed it, like its a reasonable set of options.
If this type of choice should make any sense in regards to free will, it would have to be like this.
You have to go from point A to B, if you choose the left path, you will loose your left foot. If you take the right, then you loose your right foot.
Do you see the difference, why talking about free will in the last example makes sense and not in the first one?
But that makes no sense, its like looking at humans as group of robots, with absolutely no care to the individual. What does it matter in the eyes of a human that is living a poor live. Lets say a person starving in Africa and suffering day in and day out. Imagine God having to explain to this person that overall Africa is not doing bad enough compared to Syria, so he can't really help him at this time. Im sorry, but it makes so little sense.
Even the fact that this can be split into cultures and locations... think about it for a second....
God is looking at Earth based on cultures and countries and depending on how bad each of these are doing, he decide where a messenger should appear?
So basically what we could do, is gather all the people from all countries that are doing bad and put them in Australia and all those which do well there, we move to other places, then we know that the next messenger will come there right?
Again, if this is really what Bahai's believe in, it makes God such an incompetent excuse for a joke, that I really can't see how anyone can believe in it. And im sorry for putting it like that, but its simply insane to picture a being that is suppose to be all wise, all powerful and all loving to work in such ways.
Think about it, God doesn't give a flying turd about anyone, he is purely interested in statistical data of which region/country is doing the worse and then based on that, he decide to send them a messenger, which can do absolutely nothing for them. How is a messenger going to help people that are starving or living in the worse poverty imaginable. Unless this messenger is like Jesus and can turn water into wine or feed thousands of people with a couple of breads and fish or what it was.
That is why, I wrote that even if that happened it would be near impossible to believe in. But at least it would make more sense for God to do, as these people speak in different languages. As you have mentioned yourself (If I recall correctly), the writings of Baha'u'llah have yet not been translated so everyone can understand them.You are funny Nimos.
So having 10000s of them going around spreading the word and teaching would make a lot more sense, especially if you backed this up by them performing miracles, like healing the sick, creating food out of thin air, walking on water, bringing back the dead. All that would really help, even though I know that you don't think miracles are required, I would really disagree. Miracles would make the whole difference. Because that would let us study them, and if these turned out to be true miracles, obviously it would lay the foundation for God to really make an entrance
I recall you showing me these proofs/predictions, but lets be honest, they are not really strong, compared to what you would expect or require.Baha’u’llah did offer proof to support His claim, it is just too bad more people do not look at it and take it seriously because it is almost too good to be true.
No, the problem is that God send these messenger with no ability to proof who they are. That is the issue!
The amount of messengers is irrevant, if they could truly prove it. Again having someone under controlled conditions, bring back the dead, heal the sick, walk on water etc. Would go such a long way. But God does not seem to understand this either, he still think that blind faith is the best way, which makes no sense, when he can see that people demand evidence for these claims more than ever.
But this again end in a checkmate as I also described in the last post about how religions works. Because obviously you believe that there is not going to be another messenger for the next 800 years, therefore Bahai must be the right one.
Lets try to compare that to the other big religions. Why do you think Jesus would warn about false prophets and that people should stay away from these?
So imagine you are back in time, before Baha'u'llah... why is it important for a religion to make it, so no one can claim to be a new prophet or authority?
Why is it that Muhammad is considered the last prophet by muslims and that it is important to make it, so that no one will come after him?
Now how does that differ from Bahai saying that a messenger will only occur once every 1000 years, far longer than a human lifespan?
So looking at the above about why it is important for religions to claim that no one else is going to replace them. Is largely to do with each religion claiming to be the final authority, the one and only true religion.
No one will come after Jesus, because this is the right religion. No one will come after Muhammad because that is the final true religion. No one will come after Baha'u'llah because he is the final religion. Doesn't matter if you add 1000 years or ever, the idea is exactly the same.
That is not true, you do whatever you can for your cats. Obviously you are limited by being a mere human, but you taking as best care of them as you can, does not make them human. At most it makes them happy.Screw God just because he does not do what you want Him to do?
Think about it logically Nimos. Let’s say that God did everything that everyone wanted Him to do instead of what He chose to do. That would be putting humans on a level with God, as if they know more about what is best for them than God knows. I mean if God is All-Knowing and All-Wise, God has to know more than any human about what is best for humans.
Its no different than God compared to humans, we would be considered less than ants in comparison, even if he healed all of us, brought peace and harmony.... heaven to Earth. He would still be the creator and God and we would be his cats, just being slightly happier overall than we are now.
I weren't speaking of you in regards to atheists, it was more of a general statement, as there a countries where being atheist is punishable by death. But its everyone, not only atheists. The biggest difference is that atheists are being killed or "violated", for something we don't even believe in and for most of us, don't even care about.
Sort of like you being able to be punished by death if you don't believe in unicorns... how absurd would that be
That didn't really answer my question
Where do you see the effect of God?
Saw that the US is hit really hard, but not only because of the virus, but now you also have the mass unemployment etc. It seems to me, that the US system is far worse at dealing with these crisis than we are, simply due to how we do things here. The mere fact that we have completely free healthcare for everyone, makes it so much easier and less stressful for everyone.
Can only imagine the frustration that those in the US that have been fired must feel... It could completely ruin them if they get sick.
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BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
Atheists can love their enemies and they can follow most of the 10 commandments.
Do Christians follow all of those commandments, what about keeping the Sabbath Day holy?
But that is not what John 3:16 says: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
That is a guarantee of everlasting life for believers, but it says nothing about atheists being condemned.
Every person breaks the ten commandments, even born agains, my point being that atheists break more of them then Christians by rejecting God, taking idols, etc.
John 3:16 offers the free gift of eternal life to ANYONE WHO TRUSTS. "Whosoever trusts".
Atheists are condemned if they've not been born again, just as anyone else who isn't PERFECT to enter the perfect place that comes.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Only God can condemn anyone, and God doeth whatsoever He chooseth.
According to my beliefs...
"...... But we must always remember that our existence and everything we have or ever will have is dependent upon the mercy of God and His bounty, and therefore He can accept into His heaven, which is really nearness to Him, even the lowliest if He pleases. We always have the hope of receiving His mercy if we reach out for it."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, January 12, 1957)
From: Lights of Guidance (second part): A Bahá'í Reference File
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Yes, if the details aren't important, the Baha'i Faith is great... and so are all the other religions. Like you say, Christianity has some nice music. Who cares about the details. I can join them and sing away. Or, I can join the Hare Krishnas and sing and dance. I don't care about the details about what they believe. But, we all know that religious leaders lie and all religions believe different things. Checking out what people believe and why is important. And I don't think that not to worry about the details isn't what the Baha'is mean when they say to personally investigate the truth. So let's see... Detail... Ishmael or Isaac taken to be sacrificed? Who cares. Jesus rose physically from the dead? Not important. Without Jesus, God will send people to hell? Yeah, like that's nothing to concern myself over. Many false prophets will come? So, what's the big deal? Yeah, you're right. Nothing to worry about. Why sweat the little unimportant details.
Good question. Years ago, I made a thread asking that question in the Christian DIR and it never got a reply. I'm still not sure how to answer that. I guess the best answer a believer could come up with is "God knows best" and leave it in his hands.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
Yes, fortunately, we know on what basis God condemns or approves, in both instances, it has to do with whether or not Christ transforms us, to be made morally perfect.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I do not believe that Christ is the "only one" who can transform us.
I do not believe that any human being can become "morally perfect."
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Why is it important what other people believe? It should not matter at all. It should only matter what YOU believe. Imo, you need to SEPARATE from these other people and think for yourself.
I told you why Baha’is believe that it is not important if Ishmael or Isaac was taken to be sacrificed. This quote from the Universal House of Justice explains it:
The Bahá'ís believe what is in the Bible to be true in substance. This does not mean that every word recorded in that Book is to be taken literally and treated as the authentic saying of a Prophet. A striking example is given in the account of the sacrifice which Abraham was called upon to make. The Guardian of the Faith confirms that the record in the Qur'an and the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, namely that it was Ishmael, and not Isaac as stated in the Old Testament, whom Abraham was to sacrifice, is to be upheld. In one of His Tablets 'Abdu'l-Bahá refers to this discrepancy, and explains that, from a spiritual point of view, it is irrelevant which son was involved. The essential part of the story is that Abraham was willing to obey God's command to sacrifice His son. Thus, although the account in the Torah is inaccurate in detail, it is true in substance....
...The Bahá'ís believe that God's Revelation is under His care and protection and that the essence, or essential elements, of what His Manifestations intended to convey has been recorded and preserved in Their Holy Books. However, as the sayings of the ancient Prophets were written down some time later, we cannot categorically state, as we do in the case of the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, that the words and phrases attributed to Them are Their exact words
(9 August 1984 to an individual believer)
The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments
...The Bahá'ís believe that God's Revelation is under His care and protection and that the essence, or essential elements, of what His Manifestations intended to convey has been recorded and preserved in Their Holy Books. However, as the sayings of the ancient Prophets were written down some time later, we cannot categorically state, as we do in the case of the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, that the words and phrases attributed to Them are Their exact words
(9 August 1984 to an individual believer)
The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments
It is perfectly understandable why the OT recorded that incorrectly, given how long ago it was written and who wrote it. Do you really believe the OT is inerrant? Do you really believe the NT is inerrant?
Imo it does not MATTER if Jesus rose from the dead, because that has nothing to do with the reason Jesus was sent by God:
John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
This is precisely why getting caught up in the details is not good, because then you lose sight of the actual mission of Jesus. Surely the resurrection is not a detail to the Christians but you are not a Christian so I am hard pressed to understand why it matters to you, unless you still think it might be the truth.
“Without Jesus, God will send people to hell” is not a detail to Christians because they believe it, but do you believe it? If not, why does it MATTER what Christians believe? Can’t you separate yourself from Christian beliefs and decide for yourself what YOU BELIEVE is true?
“Many false prophets will come?” So, what's the big deal? Unless you BELIEVE that Baha’u’llah is a false prophet, what IS the big deal? Please bear in mind that it is completely illogical to say that just because many false prophets will come, a true Prophet will not come. Jesus also said Matthew 7:16-17 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. These verses indicate that there are good trees (true Prophets), not just false prophets.
Why would Jesus bother to say "Ye shall know them by their fruits" if no true Prophets were going to come?
If one actually reads the verses and applies logic they are way out ahead of the game.