If this pandemic/pestilece is a sign of the end..next sign is in the heavens

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

With me, it is enough to recognize the way that the present day events line up with those end time events that are described in the Bible. In other words, like watching a play. When you see certain props on stage you have an idea of where we are at in the acts of the play.

The signs you speak of are for the Tribulation period, correct? So, should the believer in Christ not be concerned with the Second Coming of Christ as the Tribulation must occur first? In other words, are we to look for the Tribulation period which will be 7 years before Christ's second coming, instead of Christ's second coming.

Good-Ole-Rebel

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I have asked whether there are three groups of signs.

Before the seven years.
Just before and leading into the seven years
After the seven years starts. So, no, the signs are not all for the Tribulation. The signs that are being focused on in this thread are those introducing that time of sorrows.
This is important because it is inspiring to know that our salvation draws near.

dad said:

That has - what to do with the pandemic? There really is one you know.

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I know that.

I'm pointing out that it isn't actually a sign from God or anything. When there's a perfectly rational explanation, there's no need to invoke supernatural meaning to it.

dad said:

There is a trump when the dead are raised.

It mentions His voice is like a trumpet also.



In other words the dead folks already gone to be with Him will come back with Him when He returns.


At this Rapture the trump of God sounds.


The departed bodies of the saints are raised up first then the believers which are alive.



The verse you cited said trump of God, not last trump!
Then is the Rapture.

You made that up. It does not say we float around up in the sky and do not go to be where He is! In fact it is DURING the tribulation that the great marriage supper of the Lamb in heaven occurs. What, you thought He left millions of raised up believers floating down near the earth so they would not be there at the wedding supper?!
Of course, they are. The harvest of that day will be great.

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I did not make stuff up -just did not post associated scripture. As this is your thread, I will try to get back to it when I can.
It will not likely change anything, but may help if you find things did not work out as you thought.

Just this for now..... Here we clearly see the wedding supper of the Lamb associated with things that happen on Earth... the armies which were in heaven following him here for that event. The beast could not make war with him if he were not here.

9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. 10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

This is part of the same event....
Zech 141Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives,

Tiberius said:

I know that.

I'm pointing out that it isn't actually a sign from God or anything. When there's a perfectly rational explanation, there's no need to invoke supernatural meaning to it.

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I see. I disagree it is rational. I disagree that it is not an indication that the times they seem to be a changing.

InChrist said:

Not making the same argument.
True anyone can make up a story and if it’s ridiculous that should be obvious to all. That’s not often the case though because even intelligent people are easily deceived.

I just watched a six part documentary series on the Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh ( Ohso) movement which happened in eastern Oregon back in the late 80’s. The majority of this guru’s followers were educated lawyers, doctors, engineers, etc. who were willing to believe every deceptive word that came out of his mouth or not (during times of silence) and give him piles of money for his 20 something Rolls Royces and expensive clothes and jewelry.

Yet, God the Creator has revealed HIStory and verified it with real people, real names, real family genealogies, real nations, real places, real time frames, real events set in human history, while also providing prophetic insight into the unfolding of future events on earth.

But the fool says there is no God and won’t believe His story which is revealed reality... but likely many will all too willingly believe another story and give all their allegiance to a good liar.

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I think you missed my point.

Anyone can say that followers of their religion will be persecuted. Most religions are persecuted at some point. Someone predicting that does not mean that it is a prophecy from God or anything.

Etritonakin said:

I did not make stuff up -just did not post associated scripture. As this is your thread, I will try to get back to it when I can.
It will not likely change anything, but may help if you find things did not work out as you thought.

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There is always the reality that believers should be prepared to be wrong. No matter what happens we have everything to be happy about. We are saved whether a few years later or earlier.

dad said:

I have asked whether there are three groups of signs.

Before the seven years.
Just before and leading into the seven years
After the seven years starts. So, no, the signs are not all for the Tribulation. The signs that are being focused on in this thread are those introducing that time of sorrows.
This is important because it is inspiring to know that our salvation draws near.

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What time of sorrows?

Good-Ole-Rebel

dad said:

Inherited sin a bad thing. A blessing is a good thing. You cannot compare them. There is no blessing, you made that up. There is a world of sinners. Look around, does it all seem like a blessing to you?

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That's why. You misunderstood the question.

You're mixing sinning with inherited sin. People sin. That doesn't mean they have inherited sin. That's the difference.

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Inherited blessings are a good thing (your true nature is a blessing from god)

Therefore you are blessed: You've been blessed by god since you were born. You do not need to be saved because god made you without inherited sin. You don't need salvation from an inherited sin because it does not exist.

The question is: How is inherited sin better than inherited blessings?

The act of sinning-murder, abuse, etc-is besides the point

dad said:

There is always the reality that believers should be prepared to be wrong. No matter what happens we have everything to be happy about. We are saved whether a few years later or earlier.

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I definitely will that for you! Remember he who endures to the end in keeping the commandments of God will be saved!
I believe all will eventually -but the first resurrection is a "better resurrection" as it says

(I also edited my last post)

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

What time of sorrows?

Good-Ole-Rebel

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The time compared to a woman in labor. The last seven years of man's history of rule on earth. Or, as the three gospels I cited say the beginning of sorrows.

Etritonakin said:

I definitely will that for you! Remember he who endures to the end in keeping the commandments of God will be saved!
I believe all will eventually -but the first resurrection is a "better resurrection" as it says

(I also edited my last post)

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They that endure will be the saved and of course also be saved. Those that call upon the name of the Lord will be saved also.
Try to remember that all that end-time period is the wrath of God. We are not appointed to wrath.

dad said:

OK, thanks.


I have not concluded that this sign or others in history are signs that the last seven years of world history have started.

In fact, as the thread wore on I suggested that it probably could not be one of the signs either after the seven years begins or in the batch of signs that introduce us to the beginning of that time. It likely falls into the signs before that seven year end period category.



The signs in the final seven years are anything but vague. The 5 signs introducing that period seem fairly concise also. (war, famine, plagues, earthquakes, and great signs in the heavens)

I think where a lot of the confusion may originate is when people consider all the earthquakes and etc that happened in the last few thousand years to be signs of the very end.

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The signs in the final seven years are anything but vague. The 5 signs introducing that period seem fairly concise also. (war, famine, plagues, earthquakes, and great signs in the heavens)

If they are so concise then how come there have been people in every generation for the past 2000 years who have been convinced that the end times would come during their lives? Obviously they thought that the wars, famines, earthquakes, and greats signs that they saw in the heavens during their lives were the 'signs' mentioned in the bible, yet clearly they were wrong. That's because there has never been a point in human history in which there hasn't been war, famines, earthquakes, and new phenomenon in the skies that people could interpret as 'great signs' in the heavens.

'Great signs from heaven' is so vague that it could mean almost anything. Even a claim like 'the stars will fall from the sky' can mean many different things. Does that mean that stars as we understand them today will literally fall down out of the sky? Or could it just as easily be interpreted to mean that there will be great meteor showers and we'll see a lot of 'falling stars', which of course aren't stars at all.

Sorry, that's the problem with all 'signs' and 'prophecies', they are either so vague that they can mean almost anything or they are no different than an accurate prediction.

dad said:

There is always the reality that believers should be prepared to be wrong. No matter what happens we have everything to be happy about. We are saved whether a few years later or earlier.

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Are you prepared to be wrong?

QuestioningMind said:

The signs in the final seven years are anything but vague. The 5 signs introducing that period seem fairly concise also. (war, famine, plagues, earthquakes, and great signs in the heavens)

If they are so concise then how come there have been people in every generation for the past 2000 years who have been convinced that the end times would come during their lives?

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Their deductions were not based on prophesy. Anyone can claim some new moon is a great sign, and offer a timetable till the exact day the world ends. Most Bible expositors and believers do not do that.

We know that one day the end period will come. The signs are for those living in it.

There have been lots of wars and earthquakes and famines, and pestilences, and unusual things in the sky. We are also in the last days since Jesus was here. Those signs did not indicate that the last seven years had started. That would be obvious to any or most people who mistook some signs pretty quickly.

Obviously they thought that the wars, famines, earthquakes, and greats signs that they saw in the heavens during their lives were the 'signs' mentioned in the bible, yet clearly they were wrong. That's because there has never been a point in human history in which there hasn't been war, famines, earthquakes, and new phenomenon in the skies that people could interpret as 'great signs' in the heavens.

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Name a war that killed a quarter of the planet's population, and that involved Syria, Israel, Turkey, Russia, Libya and Jordan? Name an earthquake that made all mountains level and all islands move away from where they were? Name a sign in the sky that involved a third of the stars going out? Name any plague that happened to people with a mark in their forehead or hands needed to buy and sell by force of law and under penalty of death? Name a time when hundred pound hailstones fell on men? Name and earthquake that split the mount of Olives in two from east to west and left a big valley? Name a time when 2/3 of Israel was killed in a war and persecution? Etc.
Yes, prophecies are specific. The issue is whether early prophesies could tell us that this seven-year period was here or not, or even close. You see if it was near that would have implications. It would mean that believers were about to leave this world.
No man knows the day or the hour when He will return. However, we can know the signs of the times!

'Great signs from heaven' is so vague that it could mean almost anything. Even a claim like 'the stars will fall from the sky' can mean many different things. Does that mean that stars as we understand them today will literally fall down out of the sky? Or could it just as easily be interpreted to mean that there will be great meteor showers and we'll see a lot of 'falling stars', which of course aren't stars at all.

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The ancients did consider most things that were lights in the sky were stars apparently. They did not use a modern science definition.
In some instances, such as a big star falling to earth and poisoning the seas, I could see where the star could be more of a heavenly object (space station, asteroid etc). In other instances where the heavens depart like a scroll and the earth has no light and has to use candles, it does seem like the sun and moon and stars are affected.

Tiberius said:

Are you prepared to be wrong?

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We cannot be wrong about the eternal life Jesus gives those who ask. At this stage in history, we cannot yet be certain exactly when the final period will start. We can be sure it will start one day.

dad said:

We cannot be wrong about the eternal life Jesus gives those who ask. At this stage in history, we cannot yet be certain exactly when the final period will start. We can be sure it will start one day.

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So you can't even follow your own advice. One set of rules for you, another set for everyone else.

Be careful, your double standard is showing.

Tiberius said:

I think you missed my point.

Anyone can say that followers of their religion will be persecuted. Most religions are persecuted at some point. Someone predicting that does not mean that it is a prophecy from God or anything.

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The verse I posted was not about predicting persecution at all. It is about those like yourself that deny the Lord’s promise to come again.

Tiberius said:

So you can't even follow your own advice. One set of rules for you, another set for everyone else.

Be careful, your double standard is showing.

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You can't follow simple arguments and logic. We may accept some things are absolute. For some interpretations, we may not be absolute.

InChrist said:

The verse I posted was not about predicting persecution at all. It is about those like yourself that deny the Lord’s promise to come again.

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So you're just waffling on about random things now? Please keep to the topic at hand, okay?

dad said:

You can't follow simple arguments and logic. We may accept some things are absolute. For some interpretations, we may not be absolute.

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I don't think I am the one who has trouble with logic...