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Who is Jesus to Non-Christians?

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Is there anything in Tanach that would support this implication? Healings and excorisims don't imply Moshiach in Judaism. If this ^^ is true, doesn't it erode at the idea that Jesus was a "Jewish Rabbi" as is claimed in the video in the OP? This implication isn't very Jewish, imho.

I am perhaps not the best qualified to answer this question, which is likely better handled by other Tanakh-knowledgeable Jewish posters.

It is possible, I guess, that this self-understanding on the part of Jesus may have been conditioned by the popular religious imagination of his time - lay, folk culture - which may have accorded some importance to healings and exorcisms as symbols of divine presence that was lacking in the actual Tanakh.

This might be useful, though, in Shofar: An Interdisciplinary Journal of Jewish Studies

Project MUSE - The Jewish Context of Jesus' Miracles (review)

Generally, this book is a helpful study that clarifies what it means to grasp that Jesus' miracles should be understood in terms of miracles, healings, and exorcisms in Jesus time, place, and religion.

Eve indicates that Jesus did not attribute sickness to God or humans, but most likely to demons. Jesus is never reputed (contra, I would add, Asclepius and his sons [cf. Plato, Res Publica 3.407 E-408 A]) to have healed broken bones and wounds. Worthy of further discussion is the claim that Jesus, like Elijah and Elisha (especially), combined the healing role of folk heroes with the office of a prophet.

Also, refreshing and challenging is the suggestion that Jesus' healings and exorcisms were perceived by his contemporaries as related to the great miracles of national deliverance in the past (viz., the Exodus and the withdrawal of the Assyrian army during the time of King Hezekiah).

In summation, Eve points to Jesus' "experience of divine empowerment" that caused him "to combine and transform Jewish traditions" (p. 381).
 
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DanishCrow

Seeking Feeds
Interesting and well put questions! I will endeavor to answer them as I understand them.

Like many members of polytheist pagan faiths, I don't necessarily not believe Jesus was an incarnation of the Abrahamic God, nor do I not necessarily believe the Abrahamic God does not exist, I just don't worship Jesus or God. So, as a non-christian, I speak thusly:

Christians have converted heathen lands over a millenium ago now, and so I was brought up protestant, like most other norse animists. In that light, we probably can't keep Jesus out of our cultural space, nor do we really have to. For my own part, I enjoy the less compromising Jesus we see in the sermon on the mount. A spiritual view and path must understand what the ideal is, even as the spiritual seeker can and will fall short, and I thought Jesus summed this up well.
 

GoodbyeDave

Well-Known Member
I'd agree with the Jewish historian Josephus: Jesus was a faith healer and preacher.

Does he influence me and do I admire his preaching? Not in the slightest.
 

izzy88

Active Member
there is no persuasive evidence Jesus understood himself to be 'God' in his lifetime.

That depends entirely on whether you use the Gospels as evidence. If you don't, all you can say about Jesus is that he was a Jewish rabbi who performed alleged miracles and was crucified by Pontius Pilate. But if you take the Gospels as evidence, Jesus is constantly demonstrating his divinity throughout all four of them - he's just doing so in a distinctly Jewish way. Virtually all of his miracles are him demonstrating that he can do things that only God was believed to be capable of, and unlike the prophets and miracle workers before him, he did the miracles in his own name. All other miracles had to be done by people invoking God and asking him to perform the miracle for them or to give them the power to do so. But Jesus never did this; he performed his miracles with his own power, never invoking anything outside of himself.

There are many other aspects to how we know the Jesus in the Gospel stories was explicitly showing that he was God, but you need more background knowledge in ancient Jewish beliefs and culture.

There's a succinct explanation of some of the main points in a chapter of Brant Pitre's "The Case for Jesus" - which is a fantastic book that examines the scholarly evidence for Jesus. Pitre is a fantastic biblical scholar, who presents the evidence in a very objective way.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
It is possible, I guess, that this self-understanding on the part of Jesus may have been conditioned by the popular religious imagination of his time - lay, folk culture - which may have accorded some importance to healings and exorcisms as symbols of divine presence that was lacking in the actual Tanakh.
What's missing is this: divine presence does not equal messiah. Perhaps it's a rhetorical question, but, Why do so many believers in Christ ( mostly I see it from Christians and Bahai ) equate these two, miracles and messianic status? There seems to be no basis for it.
 

izzy88

Active Member
What's missing is this: divine presence does not equal messiah. Perhaps it's a rhetorical question, but, Why do so many believers in Christ ( mostly I see it from Christians and Bahai ) equate these two, miracles and messianic status? There seems to be no basis for it.
As I said in my comment just above yours, the Gospels describe Jesus as performing miracles in his own name, with his own power. He doesn't have to invoke the power of God - because he has it, himself. That's the difference.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
As I said in my comment just above yours, the Gospels describe Jesus as performing miracles in his own name, with his own power. He doesn't have to invoke the power of God because he has it, himself. That's the difference.
But how does that equate to messiah?
 

Samantha Rinne

Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
Running off a series of dialogues with those in different faiths, I want to ask a very fundamental question. Who is Jesus to those who don't believe in Him as the Son of God or Messiah as written in parts of the Bible? How does Jesus influence you whether or not he is a main figure in your beliefs? Does your religion pull from some of His doctrines and if so you don't mind sharing what? As Christians consider Him with reverence, please show reverence as well, but I would like to get to know the differing opinions of this inter-faith figure known as Jesus the Christ. Here is an example of a Rabbi finding connections with his faith and Christianity, just to see an example of what I am asking


I'm gonna say something shocking. You know the "No one comes to the Father but through me" reaction where they're like "How dare you? What about all those other religions." Neither Islam nor Christianity are religions. Islam is a complete life system (similar to how Taoism has everything from advice to run an ideal state, acupuncture, tai chi, etc, etc, etc; same deal with Islam, they have laws and rules for every facet of life). In contrast, Christianity is not a religion because its original goal is as a salvation program. Jesus had come about in a time when Roman and Greek and Egyptian paganism were all still in existence. The Jews had one God, but they seemed more interested in cleanliness than in serving God. There were plenty of gods but none of them really addressed people's real needs, none of these addressed a need for a personal relationship with God. There were demons, leprosy, state power, and all sorts of conditions, but despite the gods being supposedly omnipresent, they were nowhere to be found.

Jesus is not there to be a Savior for Christians. This is not intended to be another religion (blame the Catholic Church for this), but for people who are living as Christ lived, to teach others how to be free from this world and its crushing worries.
 

izzy88

Active Member
But how does that equate to messiah?
The term "Messiah" is a reference to a collection of prophesies in the Book of Daniel, which Jesus himself references several times in his ministry. Messiah just means "anointed one" - it's not really the title itself that's important, but what the Messiah was prophesied as coming to accomplish: in short, freeing Israel from their tyrannical rulers - with Israel representing all mankind, and the tyrannical rulers representing sin and death. It's much more complicated than that, though, and for a great explanation I'll recommend for the second time in this thread the book "The Case for Jesus" by Brant Pitre. It has a whole chapter dedicated exclusively to this Messiah concept and how it relates to Jesus. Great book.
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
The term "Messiah" is a reference to a collection of prophesies in the Book of Daniel
This is wrong; so is much of your post but leaving that aside, the messianic prophecies are rife in other books too, such as Isaiah and the book of Samuel, etc. There are very specific ones and none include miracle working. G-d specifically says, in fact, he will send false prophets - miracle workers too - to test Israel. So if even false prophets can work miracles, that means Jesus could easily (and I believe does) join that category.

“If a prophet or someone who has dreams arises among you and proclaims a sign or wonder to you, and that sign or wonder he has promised you comes about, but he says, ‘Let us follow other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us worship them,’ do not listen to that prophet’s words or to that dreamer. For the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul. You must follow the Lord your God and fear Him. You must keep His commands and listen to His voice; you must worship Him and remain faithful to Him."
 
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Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
What's missing is this: divine presence does not equal messiah. Perhaps it's a rhetorical question, but, Why do so many believers in Christ ( mostly I see it from Christians and Bahai ) equate these two, miracles and messianic status? There seems to be no basis for it.

Good question, I don't disagree so far as the Tanakh prophecies of a mashiach are concerned. (And I trust Jewish scholars to be the most reliable authorities on this)

It is difficult to understand - from a strictly scholarly, as opposed to religious point-of-view - exactly how Jesus conceptualised his own 'role' in the divine schema of history. Evidently, he regarded himself to be playing an exceptionally key one in a great cosmic drama. As noted by David Flusser, the Jewish scholar of early Christianity whose research we've been discussing, “it would be absolutely absurd to suppose that Christianity adopted an unambitious, unknown Jewish martyr and catapulted him against his will into the role of chief actor in a cosmic drama.” So Jesus did so regard himself, only not to the extent of later advanced Christology after his death..

The interesting thing is that there is a school of historical Jesus scholars who don't think he claimed to be the messiah at all. Others (such as NT Wright, Larry Hurtado, David Flusser and Brant Pitre) do believe he thought this. But there is no consensus - so we cannot just say, "the historical Jesus thought himself the messiah". Another prominent Jewish scholar of Christianity, Daniel Boyarin, does believe that Jesus thought himself to be the messiah - and he has a somewhat controversial 'take' on the intellectual landscape of Second Temple eschatological expectation:

A Jewish Messiah


As a Talmudic scholar, Daniel Boyarin spends his life studying and interpreting obscure ancient Jewish texts.

But, in recent years, Boyarin has been studying documents that most people would not consider to be Jewish texts. He has been bringing all of his Talmudic skills to bear on the study of the sacred texts of the Christian faith, texts that are commonly viewed as being in conflict with the Jewish faith from which they emerged.

Boyarin’s scholarly studies of the New Testament have led him to some startling conclusions...


https://www.thejc.com/judaism/features/why-a-divine-messiah-was-not-beyond-belief-1.44171

The Jewish Gospels is a short work aimed at general readers by Daniel Boyarin, a professor of Talmud at the University of California in Berkeley. In ancient times, the borders between what Judaism and Christianity were far more porous than we conceive today, he argues: it was not until the fourth century that the doctrinal differences were clarified, not least because of the desire of the Roman-backed church to put clear water between the spreading new faith and those it considered Jews.

His most explosive contention is that the concept of a divine messiah was not an alien import but part of the cauldron of ideas that bubbled in the volatile world of classical Judaism. “The basic underlying thoughts from which both the Trinity and the incarnation grew are there in the very world into which Jesus was born,” he writes.

Jesus could have plausibly claimed to be the “son of God”, or rather the “son of Man”, as was the more potent phrase, which goes back to the Book of Daniel. In his dreams, the prophet sees heavenly thrones — the plural is significant. On one sits the “Ancient of Days” whose hair is white as wool (Daniel 7:9): but emerging from the “clouds of heaven” is another apparition, who is likened to a “Son of Man”, whose “dominion is an everlasting dominion” and who is to be served by all peoples and nations (7:13-14).

Some interpreters may regard the Son of Man simply as the symbolic representation of a warrior-Messiah , who does not enjoy divine status, or of heroic Israel. But Boyarin suggests that Daniel’s vision reflected earlier traditions of a dual Father-Son godhead — which later rabbis successfully fought as heresy but which underlay the Gospels’ depiction of Jesus.

It is fair to say that the apocalyptic visions of Daniel are not familiar territory even to most shul-going Jews. Even less known are other texts on which Boyarin draws to bolster his argument that “Gospel Judaism” was a “Jewish messianic movement”.

The Similitudes of Enoch is an apocryphal work dated by scholars to the tumultuous first century CE — the same era as Jesus — and named after the mysterious character who appears briefly at the start of the Bible and is whisked to heaven.

In the Similitudes, the narrator Enoch recounts a heavenly vision of a figure with “a head of days” like “white wool”, accompanied by another “whose face was like the appearance of a man”. That “Son of Man” sits on “the throne of glory”: he will deliver judgment, vanquish the wicked and be worshipped on earth. Enoch comes to understand that the Son of Man is actually himself.

Another first century Jewish text, the Fourth Book of Ezra, depicts a redeemer “like the figure of a man”, flying with the clouds of heaven to initiate some kind of judgment day. “The forms of many people came to him, some of whom were joyful and some sorrowful; some of whom were bound and some were bringing others as offerings.”

The New Testament, he concludes, is “much more deeply embedded within Second Temple Jewish life and thought than many have imagined, even… in the very moments that we take to be most characteristically Christian as opposed to Jewish: the notion of a dual godhead with a Father and a Son, the notion of a Redeemer who himself will be both God and man, and the notion that this Redeemer would suffer and die as part of the salvational process.”

Of course, this is by no means a consensus view among scholars. PeterSchäfer, author of The Jewish Jesus, for example, believes that Boyarin overstates his case. But investigations of first-century Judaism are shaking old certainties. We all build our worldview on ideas about the past. The effect of works like Boyarin’s is to make the solid ground on which we think we stand seem more like ice that can melt into something more fluid.

I'm of the mind that Boyarin likely overstates his case as well.

Hurtado claims, more modestly, that Jesus regarded himself as kind of like a divine 'viceroy' or agent of the kingdom of God, which Jesus had taught was "in-breaking" within history, following the ministry of John the Baptist (the last of the prophets, in Jesus's understanding). As E.P. Sanders noted in his landmark study The Historical Figure of Jesus: "As a devout Jew, Jesus thought that God had previously intervened in the world in order to save and protect Israel...Jesus thought that God would act even more decisively: he would create an ideal world. He would restore the twelve tribes of Israel, and peace and justice would prevail. Life would be like a banquet".

Jesus thought this process of 'kingdom-building' - already immanent in the world and spreading like the yeast leavening the dough in his parable, or the tiny seed slowly maturing into a great tree in one of his other kingdom parables - had been inaugurated with John's ministry and most particularly in his own. He thought this process would continue until the whole world was transformed by it: "I have come to set the world on fire, and I wish it were already burning!" (Luke 12:49)

He thought he was playing an eschatological role predicted by the Jewish prophets of the Tanakh, that we can be absolutely sure of. Which role, specifically, is up for debate but it involved - evidently - God's Reign be returned to Israel and spreading universally through his movement.
 

izzy88

Active Member
This is wrong

the messianic prophecies are rife in other books too

If I say "we're having pizza for dinner" and you say "no, you're wrong, we're having pizza and bread sticks and buffalo wings" - would you be using the term "wrong" in an accurate way?

While there are prophesies in other books which have been interpreted as being about the same Messiah as the one in Daniel, the term "Messiah" is not found anywhere but the book of Daniel (and one of the Psalms), so the source of the Messiah concept is indeed the Book of Daniel.

There are very specific ones and none include miracle working.

I didn't say they did; the miracles were an entirely separate topic about Jesus being God, not the Messiah.
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
If I say "we're having pizza for dinner" and you say "no, you're wrong, we're having pizza and bread sticks and buffalo wings" - would you be using the term "wrong" in an accurate way?

While there are prophesies in other books which have been interpreted as being about the same Messiah as the one in Daniel, the term "Messiah" is not found anywhere but the book of Daniel (and one of the Psalms), so the source of the Messiah concept is indeed the Book of Daniel.
I've never come across this view before and it is certainly not the one I'm used to. Many are called 'anointed' (messiah) but in Jewish theology there is one Messiah who will bring about the Messianic Age. He is talked of in The Book of Daniel and other books, so saying just the book of Daniel is a misnomer.

I didn't say they did; the miracles were an entirely separate topic about Jesus being God, not the Messiah.
John's gospel says Jesus can do nothing of himself, but only through G-d.
 

izzy88

Active Member
John's gospel says Jesus can do nothing of himself, but only through G-d.

Is this the passage you're referencing?

John 5:30-47
Witnesses to Jesus
30 “I can do nothing on my own authority; as I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me. 31 If I bear witness to myself, my testimony is not true; 32 there is another who bears witness to me, and I know that the testimony which he bears to me is true. 33 You sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Not that the testimony which I receive is from man; but I say this that you may be saved. 35 He was a burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light. 36 But the testimony which I have is greater than that of John; for the works which the Father has granted me to accomplish, these very works which I am doing, bear me witness that the Father has sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness to me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen; 38 and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe him whom he has sent. 39 You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me; 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. 41 I do not receive glory from men. 42 But I know that you have not the love of God within you. 43 I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 44 How can you believe, who receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; it is Moses who accuses you, on whom you set your hope. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote of me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?"

________

Taking Bible verses out of their context is never a good idea, yet it's unfortunately done constantly. Jewish legal tradition required two or three witnesses to sustain a claim in court (Deuteronomy 19:15). What Jesus is saying here is that he has a list of witnesses beyond the required number: John the Baptist, his miracles, the Father, the Scriptures, and Moses all bear witness to his divine authority.
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
Is this the passage you're referencing?

John 5:30-47
Witnesses to Jesus
30 “I can do nothing on my own authority; as I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me. 31 If I bear witness to myself, my testimony is not true; 32 there is another who bears witness to me, and I know that the testimony which he bears to me is true. 33 You sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Not that the testimony which I receive is from man; but I say this that you may be saved. 35 He was a burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light. 36 But the testimony which I have is greater than that of John; for the works which the Father has granted me to accomplish, these very works which I am doing, bear me witness that the Father has sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness to me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen; 38 and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe him whom he has sent. 39 You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me; 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. 41 I do not receive glory from men. 42 But I know that you have not the love of God within you. 43 I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 44 How can you believe, who receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; it is Moses who accuses you, on whom you set your hope. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote of me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?"

________

Taking Bible verses out of their context is never a good idea, yet it's unfortunately done constantly. Jewish legal tradition required two or three witnesses to sustain a claim in court (Deuteronomy 19:15). What Jesus is saying here is that he has a list of witnesses beyond the required number: John the Baptist, his miracles, the Father, the Scriptures, and Moses all bear witness to his divine authority.
No, I am referring to this passage, where Jesus explicitly rejects the claims of those who say he is making himself equal with G-d,

Because of this, the Jews tried all the harder to kill him. Not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. So Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, the son can do nothing by himself, unless he sees the Father doing it. For whatever the Father does, the son also does.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
So if even false prophets can work miracles, that means Jesus could easily (and I believe does) join that category.

Maimonides had an especially thought-provoking 'twist' of his own in this respect.

Rambam, while describing Christianity and Islam as deficient religions, equally saw them as serving a messianic purpose, “to prepare the whole world to worship God with one accord.”


https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/source/rambam-messiah.txt


"But if he does not meet with full success, or is slain, it is obvious that he is not the messiah promised in the Torah . . . But even of Jesus of Nazareth, who imagined that he was the messiah, but was put to death by the court . . . has there ever been a greater stumbling than this? All the prophets affirmed that the messiah would redeem Israel, save them, gather their dispersed, and confirm the commandments . . .

"Nevertheless, the intent of the Creator of the world is not within the power of man to comprehend, for [to paraphrase Yeshayahu 55:8] His ways are not our ways, nor are His thoughts our thoughts. [Ultimately,] all the deeds of Jesus of Nazareth and that Ishmaelite [i.e. Mohammed] who arose after him will only serve to pave the way for the coming of Mashiach and for the improvement of the entire world, [motivating the nations] to serve G-d together, as it is written [Zephaniah 3:9], "I will make the peoples pure of speech so that they will all call upon the Name of G-d and serve Him with one purpose."

"How will this come about? The entire world has already become filled with talk of [the supposed] Messiah, as well as of the Torah and the mitzvos. These matters have been spread among many spiritually insensitive nations, who discuss these matters as well as the mitzvos of the Torah. Some of them [i.e. the Christians] say: "These commandments were true, but are not in force in the present age; they are not applicable for all time." Others [i.e. the Moslems] say: "Implied in the commandments are hidden concepts that cannot be understood simply; the Messiah has already come and revealed them."


Judah Ha-Levi (1075 – 1141) opined the same: “God has a secret and wise design concerning us, which should be compared to the wisdom hidden in the seed which falls into the ground, where it undergoes an external transformation into earth, water and dirt, without leaving a trace for him who looks down upon it. It is, however, the seed which transforms the earth and water into its own substance … until it refines the elements and transforms them into something like itself … allowing the pure essential core to appear … the original seed produced the tree bearing fruit resembling that from which it had been produced. In the same manner, the religion of Moses transforms each one who honestly follows it, even if he apparently rejects it. These communities [i.e., Christianity and Islam] are a preparation and introduction for the hoped-for messiah who is the fruit. They all will become his fruit, if they acknowledge him, and the tree will become one. Then they will revere the fruit they had previously despised.” (The Kuzari 4:23)

Given that he only had orthodox Christian theology to work off of, as opposed to the insights of modern secular scholarship, Maimonides took it for granted that Jesus actually was a (false) Messiah-claimant.

Undoubtedly, the movement Jesus created did - ultimately - result in millions of polytheist Romans believing in the divine revelation of the Torah and the mitzvots̶, as well as billions of people from across the world in subsequent centuries. Islam, whilst not disseminating the actual scriptures of the Hebrew Bible in the same way as Christianity, can be said to have done something similar for the concept of unitarian monotheism ("There is no god but God"). Combined, you have some 3 billion or more persons - Christians and Muslims - who either reverence the Hebrew Bible as divine writ (Christians) or worship a single unitarian Creator whom they regard to be the God of Abraham (Muslims).
 
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Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
Maimonides had an especially thought-provoking 'twist' of his own in this respect.

Rambam, while describing Christianity and Islam as deficient religions, equally saw them as serving a messianic purpose, “to prepare the whole world to worship God with one accord.”


https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/source/rambam-messiah.txt


"But if he does not meet with full success, or is slain, it is obvious that he is not the messiah promised in the Torah . . . But even of Jesus of Nazareth, who imagined that he was the messiah, but was put to death by the court . . . has there ever been a greater stumbling than this? All the prophets affirmed that the messiah would redeem Israel, save them, gather their dispersed, and confirm the commandments . . .

"Nevertheless, the intent of the Creator of the world is not within the power of man to comprehend, for [to paraphrase Yeshayahu 55:8] His ways are not our ways, nor are His thoughts our thoughts. [Ultimately,] all the deeds of Jesus of Nazareth and that Ishmaelite [i.e. Mohammed] who arose after him will only serve to pave the way for the coming of Mashiach and for the improvement of the entire world, [motivating the nations] to serve G-d together, as it is written [Zephaniah 3:9], "I will make the peoples pure of speech so that they will all call upon the Name of G-d and serve Him with one purpose."

"How will this come about? The entire world has already become filled with talk of [the supposed] Messiah, as well as of the Torah and the mitzvos. These matters have been spread among many spiritually insensitive nations, who discuss these matters as well as the mitzvos of the Torah. Some of them [i.e. the Christians] say: "These commandments were true, but are not in force in the present age; they are not applicable for all time." Others [i.e. the Moslems] say: "Implied in the commandments are hidden concepts that cannot be understood simply; the Messiah has already come and revealed them."


Judah Ha-Levi (1075 – 1141) opined the same: “God has a secret and wise design concerning us, which should be compared to the wisdom hidden in the seed which falls into the ground, where it undergoes an external transformation into earth, water and dirt, without leaving a trace for him who looks down upon it. It is, however, the seed which transforms the earth and water into its own substance … until it refines the elements and transforms them into something like itself … allowing the pure essential core to appear … the original seed produced the tree bearing fruit resembling that from which it had been produced. In the same manner, the religion of Moses transforms each one who honestly follows it, even if he apparently rejects it. These communities [i.e., Christianity and Islam] are a preparation and introduction for the hoped-for messiah who is the fruit. They all will become his fruit, if they acknowledge him, and the tree will become one. Then they will revere the fruit they had previously despised.” (The Kuzari 4:23)

Given that he only had orthodox Christian theology to work off of, as opposed to the insights of modern secular scholarship, Maimonides took it for granted that Jesus actually was a (false) Messiah-claimant.

Undoubtedly, the movement Jesus created did - ultimately - result in millions of polytheist Romans believing in the divine revelation of the Torah and the mitzvots, as well as billions of people from across the world in subsequent centuries. Islam, whilst not disseminating the actual scriptures of the Hebrew Bible in the same way as Christianity, can be said to have done the same for the concept of unitarian monotheism ("There is no god but God"). Combined, you have some 3 billion or more persons - Christians and Muslims - who either reverence the Hebrew Bible as divine writ (Christians) or worship a single unitarian Creator whom they regard to be the God of Abraham (Muslims).
Yeah, I am familiar with this view. It seems pretty standard among Orthodox Jewry and I find it an acceptable claim (although Rambam and I don't always see eye to eye).

'Mitzvots'? Hehe. It's mitzvot or mitzvos (or in a more ancient pronunciation mitzvoth). :)
 

izzy88

Active Member
No, I am referring to this passage, where Jesus explicitly rejects the claims of those who say he is making himself equal with G-d,

Because of this, the Jews tried all the harder to kill him. Not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. So Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, the son can do nothing by himself, unless he sees the Father doing it. For whatever the Father does, the son also does.

I'm confused about what you think the problem is. John says that they accused Jesus of calling God his Father and therefore making himself divine and equal to God, and that Jesus replied by confirming his divinity by again calling God his Father, and himself the Son, but making a further statement about the relationship between the Father and the Son. He's simply saying that although the Son is less than the Father in his humanity, he is equal to the Father in his divinity.

Edit:

I didn't mean to submit that yet - I've accidentally clicked that button so many times! The joys of trying to navigate a smartphone...

I was going to continue by referencing the rest of the passage - like I said, we need to look at things in context.

John 5:19-23
The Authority of the Son
19 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing; for whatever he does, that the Son does likewise. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows him all that he himself is doing; and greater works than these will he show him, that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. 22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

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So, in the full context, I don't see how you can deny what Jesus is plainly saying: that he is divine.
 
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Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm confused about what you think the problem is. John says that they accused Jesus of calling God his Father and therefore making himself divine and equal to God, and that Jesus replied by confirming his divinity by again calling God his Father, and himself the Son, but making a further statement about the relationship between the Father and the Son. He's simply saying that although the Son is less than the Father in his humanity, he is equal to the Father in his divinity.
I think the confusion comes from the Christian Scripture's mistaken idea that calling G-d one's father is somehow making oneself equal with Him. Jews call G-d 'Avinu' (our Father) and always have.

Jesus specifically says he can 'do nothing by himself' ergo the miracles he did were not 'of himself'.
 
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