So Jesus is not God?

DW79 said:

Sure the scriptures are deep no doubt about it. But here's the thing, that doesn't mean that none of it is simple to understand. I mean for example do you believe Jesus was born in Bethlehem? Or do you try and find other meanings around the scriptures that directly say he was born in Bethlehem?

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Yes we believe Jesus was born in Bethlehem but that's easy to see now. That doesn't mean there aren't deeper meanings to it though.

As for other meanings. I try to understand the scriptures from a spiritual perspective.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

DW79 said:

So the question is simply this. Do we simply read what Jesus says about his identity or do we imply he meant something else?

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Then, let's simply read what Jesus says about His identity. In Matthew 11:25-27 and/or Luke 10:21-22. In these passages we find that no one can know who the Son is or the Father unless the Son shows them. So, it's not so easy to see who Jesus really is. In fact God has hidden this identity from the "wise and prudent" of this world. Yes He is a mystery as we read in 1 Timothy 3:16.

Matthew 11:25-27
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

DW79 said:

Because only one of these is correct.

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Well, it depends what you mean by that. Was Jesus a prophet? A Son of God? A healer? A carpenter's Son? The Son of God?

He can be a lot of things. But we need to know Him better. Not just stop at one thing. Many Jews in those days believed He was a prophet (which is true) but never said He was Son of God or the Messiah. So we can know Jesus better now also.

DW79 said:

If we choose the wrong one we will never reach the answer. If you would like to discuss this point with me I would be happy too.

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Go for it.

DW79 said:

Sure the scriptures are deep no doubt about it. But here's the thing, that doesn't mean that none of it is simple to understand. I mean for example do you believe Jesus was born in Bethlehem? Or do you try and find other meanings around the scriptures that directly say he was born in Bethlehem?

So the question is simply this. Do we simply read what Jesus says about his identity or do we imply he meant something else? Because only one of these is correct. If we choose the wrong one we will never reach the answer. If you would like to discuss this point with me I would be happy too.

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DW79, in this forum, the discussions and debates are about the Christian Scriptures... The Christian belief. So that narrows things down a whole heap.

Next, we are talking about, in general, a trinity belief verses a non-trinity belief.

Trinity belief is so wide and fluid that there can be no agreement between any two of such belief ... because every trinitarian devises his of her own trinity ideology within the belief.

Non-trinity is a rarity.

Some non-trinity beliefs are actually Trinitarian in basis.

Oneness belief, for instance, is actually trinitarian despite other Trinitarians classing it as non-Trinitarian.

Jehovah Witnesses can be dismissed since they wrongfully believe that Jesus was an angel...

And Mormonism doesn’t even show on the radar.

So, of non-trinity beliefs, what is left?

Well, there is a non-trinity belief that has no title... It’s theology is not that Jesus is not God ... it does not even consider such a nonsense. What it does claim is the simple truth... the truth of Almighty God and his Christ, and that:

• ‘Eternal life depends on believing that the Father is the only true God, and in Jesus Christ whom He, YHWH, sent with the Revelation of YHWH to mankind’ (paraphrase of John 17:3 and Rev 1:1)

Soapy said:

Oneness belief, for instance, is actually trinitarian despite other Trinitarians classing it as non-Trinitarian.

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According to you maybe but I don't believe so. We don't believe God is three persons in one God.

Soapy said:

Almighty God is not our FRIEND!!

Almighty God, YHWH, is our [spiritual] FATHER. We are his children.

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But Jesus is also supposed to be our Father if you read Isaiah 9:6 then Jesus is a Father. Some say the Father of eternity others eternal Father. Doesn't matter because it can be read both ways in Hebrew and both are true. Either way He's still a Father.

Soapy said:

Even human society says ‘Do not ever claim to be “friends” with your children - you are their parents!!’

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In Revelation 3:19 we see Jesus is acting as a Father to His children. He(Jesus) is chastening them. So, does that mean Jesus can't be our Friend and yet chasten us and act as disciplinarian?

Revelation 3:19
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.


So to be the friend of Jesus is to do whatever He commands you. (John 15:14) You see there is more to being His friend than just being your next door neighbor's friend. You don't have to obey your neighbor. They're your equal. But, to be a friend of a King is never exactly the same thing. You still must treat a King like what they are. A King even though they're your friend.

Soapy said:

DW79, in this forum, the discussions and debates are about the Christian Scriptures... The Christian belief. So that narrows things down a whole heap.

Next, we are talking about, in general, a trinity belief verses a non-trinity belief.

Trinity belief is so wide and fluid that there can be no agreement between any two of such belief ... because every trinitarian devises his of her own trinity ideology within the belief.

Non-trinity is a rarity.

Some non-trinity beliefs are actually Trinitarian in basis.

Oneness belief, for instance, is actually trinitarian despite other Trinitarians classing it as non-Trinitarian.

Jehovah Witnesses can be dismissed since they wrongfully believe that Jesus was an angel...

And Mormonism doesn’t even show on the radar.

So, of non-trinity beliefs, what is left?

Well, there is a non-trinity belief that has no title... It’s theology is not that Jesus is not God ... it does not even consider such a nonsense. What it does claim is the simple truth... the truth of Almighty God and his Christ, and that:

• ‘Eternal life depends on believing that the Father is the only true God, and in Jesus Christ whom He, YHWH, sent with the Revelation of YHWH to mankind’ (paraphrase of John 17:3 and Rev 1:1)

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Hi Soapy,

Who created everything? Was it YHWH as it says in Isaiah 44:24 - who says he did it alone and by myself? OR was it the one who shed the blood who created everything, as it says in Colossians 1:14-19?

Can you not see that it had to be YHWH that was dwelling in that fleshly body? (in order for both scriptures to be true) Colossians 2:9

74x12 said:

According to you maybe but I don't believe so. We don't believe God is three persons in one God.

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Oh... that’s interesting... what is oneness belief in that respect? I’ve been to oneness church and picked up their ‘Who we are’ leaflet.

Soapy said:

Oh... that’s interesting... what is oneness belief in that respect? I’ve been to oneness church and picked up their ‘Who we are’ leaflet.

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Trinitarians believe God is three distinct persons that can't be mixed up even though they're "one essence".

We (Oneness believers) believe the Father, Son and holy Spirit are the same person and same God. He just reveals Himself in various ways. So we believe the Father is the Son. The holy Spirit is the Spirit of God rather than a distinct person from the Father or Son.

So we don't believe the tri-unity doctrine.

74x12 said:

But Jesus is also supposed to be our Father if you read Isaiah 9:6 then Jesus is a Father. Some say the Father of eternity others eternal Father. Doesn't matter because it can be read both ways in Hebrew and both are true. Either way He's still a Father.

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• “You unbelieving and perverse generation," Jesus replied, "how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me." (Matthew 17:17)

The ‘Eternal Father’ referred to in Isaiah 9:6 is an end-time prophesy. What is it that is not understandable by ‘SHALL BE CALLED’... ‘shall be’ is not ‘IS’....!

When Jesus sits on the judgement seat and raises the dead in the second resurrection, it is HE who will decide on who lives eternally and who dies eternally according to their sins.

The APPROPRIATE definition of ‘Father’ in this instance is:

• ‘He who gives life to...’

And we know that Jesus is GRANTED to be able to ‘give life’ BY ALMIGHTY GOD: the FATHER:

• “For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.” (John 5:26)

So, throughout his life and before he died and was resurrected into an immortal body, Jesus DID NOT have the ability to ‘give life’. Only the Father of heaven, YHWH, did. The Father grants that the son should also be able to ‘give life’... he did not have it until the Father granted it to him.

You will notice, of course, that all the people that Jesus raised up from the ‘dead’ during his time on earth... later died.......!!!! So Jesus’ raising of the dead before his own resurrection BY THE FATHER, were only temporary!

So, at the ‘end of time’ Jesus SHALL GRANT ETERNAL LIFE to those who he judges as worthy... thus, by granting the worthy ones eternal life, Jesus becomes their SPIRITUAL ETERNAL FATHER.

In Revelation 3:19 we see Jesus is acting as a Father to His children. He(Jesus) is chastening them. So, does that mean Jesus can't be our Friend and yet chasten us and act as disciplinarian?

Revelation 3:19
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.


So to be the friend of Jesus is to do whatever He commands you. (John 15:14) You see there is more to being His friend than just being your next door neighbor's friend. You don't have to obey your neighbor. They're your equal. But, to be a friend of a King is never exactly the same thing. You still must treat a King like what they are. A King even though they're your friend.

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You refer to John 15:14... but what about the very next verse.....Do you read that Jesus calls them ‘No longer Servants’ but ‘FRIENDS’. Verse 14 refers to them as SERVANTS... and that is why they obey him... a good servant obeys his MASTER because he is wishes to please his master: a Friends does as his friend does because he recognises its the right thing to do - he does as his good friends because a good friend is equal to his good friend (John 15:16-25):

• “I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.” (John 15:15 - plus verses 16 and 17)

So these in Revelation are not yet the second resurrected ones - or are those of the FIRST resurrection - those who will reign with him as kings and priests, heirs to almighty God:YHWH, over creation (I haven’t read your references regarding these ‘friends’).

74x12 said:

Trinitarians believe God is three distinct persons that can't be mixed up even though they're "one essence".

We (Oneness believers) believe the Father, Son and holy Spirit are the same person and same God. He just reveals Himself in various ways. So we believe the Father is the Son. The holy Spirit is the Spirit of God rather than a distinct person from the Father or Son.

So we don't believe the tri-unity doctrine.

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Yes, I know that’s what they say... and, in fact, that makes oneness EVEN MORE OF A CONUNDRUM than straight up trinity.

I’ve read the oneness ideology sheet and even notice a vague reference to ‘do not ask us to explain the how of our belief’ (don’t quote me on the exact words...!!!) I’m not surprised that such a disguised reference should be included... no one of oneness belief is going to question anyone in the oneness church, are they! Not if they want to attend the following week or ever after!!!

Just as a few basic entry questions:

1. Where does it say in scriptures that Jesus is the Father?
2. Where does it say in scriptures that Jesus is the Holy Spirit?
3. When Jesus died, did God die?
4. Who raised God from the dead?
5. Who was Jesus talking to when he cried out to the Father saying, ‘Why have you deserted me’ and ‘Into thy hands I commend my spirit’?
6. Who is it that ‘sits on the throne’ while Jesus, the lamb, stands before the throne?

• (There’s plenty others but these will suffice!)

But, in any case, oneness believes in a ‘THREE IN ONE GOD’.., which is, da dah.. ‘Trinity’!

Jesus is most definitely a father without having to be Yahweh Himself. We understand the process and timing when Jesus becomes a father on the basis of Isaiah 53:10... when the Messiah makes himself an offering for sin he will see his seed (his descendants). It is on the basis of Christ sacrificing himself that he can have children. Aren't we born again through baptism, joining Jesus in his death and resurrection through the baptismal grave?!!

In this same context the saints will qualify as priests in the Kingdom Age, In the First Kingdom Age the priests had to be the sons of the High Priest (from Aaron down). Therefore the priests (immortal) of the restored Kingdom Age will also have to be the children of the High Priest. Jesus told Nicodemus (John 3) that one has to be born again in order to enter the Kingdom. Well Jesus is the Father for this rebirth, on the basis of his sacrifice (as noted in Isaiah 53:10).

The fact that Jesus qualifies for the title of "Everlasting" Father is the fact that those born again through him will inherit everlasting life. The difference between Christ and God in the context of "everlasting" is that God is from everlasting and to everlasting. Jesus is only to everlasting, as he had an origin... but he will be the father of those who inherit everlasting life.

Abraham is also given the title "Father" as he is the Father of the faithful and those baptized into Christ are constituted his children on the basis of faith (Gal 3:27-29). Abraham will qualify as an "Everlasting Father" as well, as he will inherit everlasting life.

There is no reason why a son can't also be a father. I am both a son and a father. My father had a father. The difference is that Yahweh had no beginning. He has no father, unlike Jesus. I certainly have a father, but when (if) I am born again I will necessarily have a new father. That will be Jesus, who also had a father, but his Father didn't have a father.

moorea944 said:

Jesus is most definitely a father without having to be Yahweh Himself. We understand the process and timing when Jesus becomes a father on the basis of Isaiah 53:10... when the Messiah makes himself an offering for sin he will see his seed (his descendants). It is on the basis of Christ sacrificing himself that he can have children. Aren't we born again through baptism, joining Jesus in his death and resurrection through the baptismal grave?!!

In this same context the saints will qualify as priests in the Kingdom Age, In the First Kingdom Age the priests had to be the sons of the High Priest (from Aaron down). Therefore the priests (immortal) of the restored Kingdom Age will also have to be the children of the High Priest. Jesus told Nicodemus (John 3) that one has to be born again in order to enter the Kingdom. Well Jesus is the Father for this rebirth, on the basis of his sacrifice (as noted in Isaiah 53:10).

The fact that Jesus qualifies for the title of "Everlasting" Father is the fact that those born again through him will inherit everlasting life. The difference between Christ and God in the context of "everlasting" is that God is from everlasting and to everlasting. Jesus is only to everlasting, as he had an origin... but he will be the father of those who inherit everlasting life.

Abraham is also given the title "Father" as he is the Father of the faithful and those baptized into Christ are constituted his children on the basis of faith (Gal 3:27-29). Abraham will qualify as an "Everlasting Father" as well, as he will inherit everlasting life.

There is no reason why a son can't also be a father. I am both a son and a father. My father had a father. The difference is that Yahweh had no beginning. He has no father, unlike Jesus. I certainly have a father, but when (if) I am born again I will necessarily have a new father. That will be Jesus, who also had a father, but his Father didn't have a father.

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moorea944, your post is very naive. I detect an elementary understanding of scriptures that is defeated by the level of others here.

You have a few points right.. I’ll give you that. But in saying that, there is the problem! If you were to preach and have others believe you then you would be severely misleading your congregational flock!

If it please you to learn the truth then read post #428, two posts before your last one above.

By the way, what is your definition of ‘Father’ in the spiritual sense (I.e. not procreation ... flesh to flesh!)?

And do you have a spiritual definition of ‘Son’... not pro-created flesh but in the spirit?

Soapy said:

moorea944, your post is very naive. I detect an elementary understanding of scriptures that is defeated by the level of others here.

You have a few points right.. I’ll give you that. But in saying that, there is the problem! If you were to preach and have others believe you then you would be severely misleading your congregational flock!

If it please you to learn the truth then read post #428, two posts before your last one above.

By the way, what is your definition of ‘Father’ in the spiritual sense (I.e. not procreation ... flesh to flesh!)?

And do you have a spiritual definition of ‘Son’... not pro-created flesh but in the spirit?

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[Your post is very naive. I detect an elementary understanding of scriptures that is defeated by the level of others here.]

Wow! That was arrogant!!

What exactly did you not like or understand what I wrote?...... just curious.....

moorea944 said:

[Your post is very naive. I detect an elementary understanding of scriptures that is defeated by the level of others here.]

Wow! That was arrogant!!

What exactly did you not like or understand what I wrote?...... just curious.....

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Arrogant...? Does that mean you acknowledge that what I said was true... hope so - because it is!

You said:

• “Jesus is most definitely a father without having to be Yahweh Himself.”

This is true because ‘Father’ is just a title... it is a reference to someone who ‘Gives Life to ....’

This could be anything... anything that is ‘brought into existence’, the one who did is is ITS FATHER...

Jesus Christ is NOW the HEAD of humanity, over creation... He was made to be HEAD by one who is HEAD over even him: YHWH, as you said. And, of course, YHWH is ‘The HEAD over all whom are called heads’...(capitalisation mine)

You said:

• “The fact that Jesus qualifies for the title of "Everlasting" Father is the fact that those born again through him will inherit everlasting life. The difference between Christ and God in the context of "everlasting" is that God is from everlasting and to everlasting. Jesus is only to everlasting, as he had an origin... but he will be the father of those who inherit everlasting life.”

Comparing Melon with Grape... Jesus is the grape that is nowhere equal ‘Father’ compared to the Melon of almighty God. You ARE RIGHT though that YHWH is from everlasting [past] to everlasting [future] and Jesus is only from his birth in Mary to everlasting [future], as he said in Revelation:

• ‘I am he that was dead BUT am alive for evermore...’

Yes, how can someone who was dead at one time be said to have been from eternity to eternity!!!
The ‘Father’ of Jesus is at the END OF TIME when Jesus raises the dead and judges them in the second resurrection. Those whom he chooses as bad will be everlastingly destroyed in their body and spirit ... those who he judges worthy will be GIVEN ETERNAL LIFE... thus, Jesus GIVES THEM LIFE ... (which is to ‘Father’ them). But you said earlier that his sacrifice was so he could have children and become Father. That is so not true in itself... that is naive. Certainly it ends as such but it is not a cause... it’s a symptom.

You said:

• “Abraham is also given the title "Father" as he is the Father of the faithful and those baptized into Christ are constituted his children on the basis of faith (Gal 3:27-29). Abraham will qualify as an "Everlasting Father" as well, as he will inherit everlasting life.”

Abraham is only ‘Father’ of the Israelites and thus all Jews (even the Samaritans!) This is ‘procreated Fatherhood’. Scripturally we are speaking of SPIRITUAL FATHERHOOD! I mean, think of this... Adam, the sinner of sinners of mankind, is ALL OUR human FATHER... Our father by procreation!!
So, please stick to Spiritual fatherhood!!

And finally, you said:

• “There is no reason why a son can't also be a father. I am both a son and a father. My father had a father. The difference is that Yahweh had no beginning. He has no father, unlike Jesus. I certainly have a father, but when (if) I am born again I will necessarily have a new father. That will be Jesus, who also had a father, but his Father didn't have a father.”

Here, you’ve strayed into childish naivety here. This is pure procreation... nothing to do with spiritual fatherhood.

HOWEVER, everyone who does the works of him who commands him... is a SON.., which means, YES, even he who does the works of his Father, can command another to do another works, and if he who does so does so then he is Son and the commander is ‘Father’.

It’s a bit recursive but true.

Soapy said:

Arrogant...? Does that mean you acknowledge that what I said was true... hope so - because it is!

You said:

• “Jesus is most definitely a father without having to be Yahweh Himself.”

This is true because ‘Father’ is just a title... it is a reference to someone who ‘Gives Life to ....’

This could be anything... anything that is ‘brought into existence’, the one who did is is ITS FATHER...

Jesus Christ is NOW the HEAD of humanity, over creation... He was made to be HEAD by one who is HEAD over even him: YHWH, as you said. And, of course, YHWH is ‘The HEAD over all whom are called heads’...(capitalisation mine)

You said:

• “The fact that Jesus qualifies for the title of "Everlasting" Father is the fact that those born again through him will inherit everlasting life. The difference between Christ and God in the context of "everlasting" is that God is from everlasting and to everlasting. Jesus is only to everlasting, as he had an origin... but he will be the father of those who inherit everlasting life.”

Comparing Melon with Grape... Jesus is the grape that is nowhere equal ‘Father’ compared to the Melon of almighty God. You ARE RIGHT though that YHWH is from everlasting [past] to everlasting [future] and Jesus is only from his birth in Mary to everlasting [future], as he said in Revelation:

• ‘I am he that was dead BUT am alive for evermore...’

Yes, how can someone who was dead at one time be said to have been from eternity to eternity!!!
The ‘Father’ of Jesus is at the END OF TIME when Jesus raises the dead and judges them in the second resurrection. Those whom he chooses as bad will be everlastingly destroyed in their body and spirit ... those who he judges worthy will be GIVEN ETERNAL LIFE... thus, Jesus GIVES THEM LIFE ... (which is to ‘Father’ them). But you said earlier that his sacrifice was so he could have children and become Father. That is so not true in itself... that is naive. Certainly it ends as such but it is not a cause... it’s a symptom.

You said:

• “Abraham is also given the title "Father" as he is the Father of the faithful and those baptized into Christ are constituted his children on the basis of faith (Gal 3:27-29). Abraham will qualify as an "Everlasting Father" as well, as he will inherit everlasting life.”

Abraham is only ‘Father’ of the Israelites and thus all Jews (even the Samaritans!) This is ‘procreated Fatherhood’. Scripturally we are speaking of SPIRITUAL FATHERHOOD! I mean, think of this... Adam, the sinner of sinners of mankind, is ALL OUR human FATHER... Our father by procreation!!
So, please stick to Spiritual fatherhood!!

And finally, you said:

• “There is no reason why a son can't also be a father. I am both a son and a father. My father had a father. The difference is that Yahweh had no beginning. He has no father, unlike Jesus. I certainly have a father, but when (if) I am born again I will necessarily have a new father. That will be Jesus, who also had a father, but his Father didn't have a father.”

Here, you’ve strayed into childish naivety here. This is pure procreation... nothing to do with spiritual fatherhood.

HOWEVER, everyone who does the works of him who commands him... is a SON.., which means, YES, even he who does the works of his Father, can command another to do another works, and if he who does so does so then he is Son and the commander is ‘Father’.

It’s a bit recursive but true.

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Man your killing me with the way to talk to people!! But anyhow....

[Arrogant...? Does that mean you acknowledge that what I said was true... hope so - because it is!]
lol!!! Your kidding me, right?

[Abraham is only ‘Father’ of the Israelites and thus all Jews (even the Samaritans!) This is ‘procreated Fatherhood’. Scripturally we are speaking of SPIRITUAL FATHERHOOD! I mean, think of this... Adam, the sinner of sinners of mankind, is ALL OUR human FATHER... Our father by procreation!!
So, please stick to Spiritual fatherhood!!]
Your completely not getting it... I was making a point which, again.., you didnt get...

[Here, you’ve strayed into childish naivety here. This is pure procreation... nothing to do with spiritual fatherhood.]
Again, your not getting what I wrote. I can tell your note a people person just on the way you talk to people.
The whole point in my post ... (which you completely changed into something else..) was to explain, mostly to trinitarins, that when scripture mentions in Isaiah that Jesus "shall be" an everlasting father, it doesnt mean that it makes him God. Maybe I should have written it simpler for you to understand.... next time........

moorea944 said:

Man your killing me with the way to talk to people!! But anyhow....

[Arrogant...? Does that mean you acknowledge that what I said was true... hope so - because it is!]
lol!!! Your kidding me, right?

[Abraham is only ‘Father’ of the Israelites and thus all Jews (even the Samaritans!) This is ‘procreated Fatherhood’. Scripturally we are speaking of SPIRITUAL FATHERHOOD! I mean, think of this... Adam, the sinner of sinners of mankind, is ALL OUR human FATHER... Our father by procreation!!
So, please stick to Spiritual fatherhood!!]
Your completely not getting it... I was making a point which, again.., you didnt get...

[Here, you’ve strayed into childish naivety here. This is pure procreation... nothing to do with spiritual fatherhood.]
Again, your not getting what I wrote. I can tell your note a people person just on the way you talk to people.
The whole point in my post ... (which you completely changed into something else..) was to explain, mostly to trinitarins, that when scripture mentions in Isaiah that Jesus "shall be" an everlasting father, it doesnt mean that it makes him God. Maybe I should have written it simpler for you to understand.... next time........

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I don’t think you need to explain to me what Isaiah meant. I have written as you stated many many times ... but it’s not that you were wrong - indeed you are right... it’s the rest of the surrounding explanation... as I said, if you were a preacher you would mislead your flock by telling only partial truth.

As for my mode of speech (writing!), you get the truth from me - but unfortunately the truth is too much for the majority of persons. Those trying to foster deception, those not quite in tune with scriptures, and those who really are here just to pass the time of day (or night) - and believe me, there are plenty - those are the ones who find me most difficult. So which are you?

I asked you to show your definition of ‘Father’ and of ‘Son’ in the spiritual sense. I’ve yet to see it. In actual fact I would love it if you wrote what I hope is the same as mine.. again, believe me, no one I’ve talked with has got it right yet... I’m hoping you’ll be the first!

Can I ask? Have you dealt with Trinitarians before?... Let me give you advice on this matter:

• You are going to try a load harder than how you tried here in your post. it never even occurred to me you were posting against and to Trinitarians - I might not have been so hard on you... I would have just dismissed your naivety and looked to your positive truthful aspects.
• Trinitarians are very slippery Snake-like creatures. If you grab their tail they will turn round and bite you... you need to crush their skulls (biblically speaking) with absolute truth because any errors will cause them to ‘fang’ you with venom!!

Soapy said:

The ‘Eternal Father’ referred to in Isaiah 9:6 is an end-time prophesy. What is it that is not understandable by ‘SHALL BE CALLED’... ‘shall be’ is not ‘IS’....!

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He "shall" be called because at the time Jesus wasn't yet born when Isaiah spoke the prophecy!

... For unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given ... it's about His birth.

Soapy said:

The APPROPRIATE definition of ‘Father’ in this instance is:

• ‘He who gives life to...’

Click to expand...

All Fathers give life. It still means what it means. It literally means Father. So Jesus is a Father. I say He is the THE Father. Because for us the church there is only one God and Faather of all who is above all and through all and in you all. (Ephesians 4:6)

Soapy said:

And we know that Jesus is GRANTED to be able to ‘give life’ BY ALMIGHTY GOD: the FATHER:

• “For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.” (John 5:26)

Click to expand...

He had to be granted all power in heaven and in earth in human form. This is not about God giving Himself the ability to give life. It's about God giving the ability to give life to a human being. The Son of man; Jesus. Why? So that by Him and in Him; we fellow humans would have life and we would have power over all our enemies. So that's the amazing thing about it all. Not that God had all power. He already did. It was that a human being had all power now. That is something special.

I believe God promised all power to a human being (The Messiah) knowing that He would come in human form to take that power back and do what with it? He would save us. It's all about God's love for Adam(mankind).

Soapy said:

So, throughout his life and before he died and was resurrected into an immortal body, Jesus DID NOT have the ability to ‘give life’. Only the Father of heaven, YHWH, did. The Father grants that the son should also be able to ‘give life’... he did not have it until the Father granted it to him.

You will notice, of course, that all the people that Jesus raised up from the ‘dead’ during his time on earth... later died.......!!!! So Jesus’ raising of the dead before his own resurrection BY THE FATHER, were only temporary!

So, at the ‘end of time’ Jesus SHALL GRANT ETERNAL LIFE to those who he judges as worthy... thus, by granting the worthy ones eternal life, Jesus becomes their SPIRITUAL ETERNAL FATHER.

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Jesus gained all power in heaven and in earth when He rose from the dead. (Matthew 28:18) This was so that He could subdue all our enemies.

One reason why the resurrections such as of Lazarus were not permanent was because Jesus has to be the firstborn from the dead. He is the first one to obtain immortality through the resurrection. (see Colossians 1:18) Everyone who is born again into the body of Christ has that resurrection power also; but it begins first within and the redemption of the body comes later on. (Romans 8:23, 1 Corinthians 15:53)

But if you are really born again of the Spirit (John 3:3-5) then you should consider your spirit as being raised in resurrection power to live to God and your flesh is crucified with Christ. (Galatians 2:19-20) and your soul and spirit will live forever with God. (So long as you don't quit following God of course.) You're only supposed to be waiting on the redemption of your body. Because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. So it must be transformed. (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)

But in the meantime the "Kingdom of God" is "within you" (speaking to those who are indeed submitted to the rule of God within their hearts.)

Soapy said:

You refer to John 15:14... but what about the very next verse.....Do you read that Jesus calls them ‘No longer Servants’ but ‘FRIENDS’. Verse 14 refers to them as SERVANTS... and that is why they obey him... a good servant obeys his MASTER because he is wishes to please his master: a Friends does as his friend does because he recognises its the right thing to do - he does as his good friends because a good friend is equal to his good friend (John 15:16-25):

• “I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.” (John 15:15 - plus verses 16 and 17)

So these in Revelation are not yet the second resurrected ones - or are those of the FIRST resurrection - those who will reign with him as kings and priests, heirs to almighty God:YHWH, over creation (I haven’t read your references regarding these ‘friends’).

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No friend of a King is ever really His equal. You can find examples from history such as Alexander the Great. He named his soldiers "companions" which is just another way of saying friend. In the old days of monarchies; it was a great honor to be called the "king's friend".

So no we can't be equal with Jesus. He's the head of the body and that's why we show Him honor even more than angels. (Colossians 2:19)

But in any case; even though we may be the friend of Christ that doesn't mean we're not supposed to be His servant also.

We see that Paul was not ashamed to call himself the servant of Jesus Christ in Romans 1:1

• James also did it in James 1:1
• Peter says it in 2 Peter 1:1
• Jude says it in Jude 1:1
• And the book of Revelation is written to the "servants of Jesus Christ". (Revelation 1:1)

Soapy said:

Where does it say in scriptures that Jesus is the Father?

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Here are two for starters:

Isaiah 9:6
John 14:7-9

Soapy said:

Where does it say in scriptures that Jesus is the Holy Spirit?

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It can be seen easily enough. Just bear with me. I am going to explain this carefully so you have to follow along.

Let's establish something first. In 1 Corinthians 12:13 we find that there is only ONE Spirit for the whole body. That is you only receive one Spirit. You don't get two or three spirits. Only one. And that is the Spirit of God.


Yet in Galatians 4:6 we find that God sends the Spirit of His Son into their hearts!


So, then the Spirit of the Father and the Spirit of the Son logically must be the same Spirit. And we will see that this is indeed true in Romans 8:9-16. Here, there is no differentiation between the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Jesus Christ. They are spoken of as one and the same Spirit.

First it speaks of the Spirit of God dwelling in you and then it says you must have the Spirit of Christ. Then it makes it clear you need the Spirit hat raised Jesus from the daed dwelling in you. Then speaking of the SAME Spirit this Spirit is called the Spirit of adoption which is how we are able to cry "Abba, Father". So this Spirit is how God identifies His children. Because the Spirit enables us to cry "Abba Father".

Now, going back to Galatians 4:6 again ... here we see that it is indeed the Spirit of the Son that cries "Abba Father". So, all this together is conclusive proof that
1. The body only receives one Spirit.
2. This Spirit is indeed the Spirit of God aka the holy Spirit.
3. This Spirit is indeed the Spirit of the Son of God which cries "Abba Father".

Now this is no surprise that the Spirit of God prays with and for us within us. If you read Romans 8:26

Romans 8:9-16
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Soapy said:

When Jesus died, did God die?

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God dies through Jesus. God can't literally die. That's why He needed a human body. See Hebrews 10:5 "a body hast thou prepared me"

God made a human body in the womb of Mary that would be the "Lamb of God" the ultimate sacrifice.

Soapy said:

ho raised God from the dead?

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God did it. But remember Jesus Himself is the "Word of Life" (1 John 1:1) that is the commandment to the dead to rise again to live. Jesus is literally the Word sent out from God that would give life to the dead.

Even Jesus said He would raise Himself in John 2:19.

He refers to Himself as the temple because He is speaking as God dwelling in that temple.

Soapy said:

Who was Jesus talking to when he cried out to the Father saying, ‘Why have you deserted me’ and ‘Into thy hands I commend my spirit’?

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He was talking to God. Jesus said that He proceeded forth and came from God and that He would return to Him again. (John 8:42) So, God is able to send His Spirit out (Psalm 104:30) and the Spirit is able to return to Him again.

Soapy said:

Who is it that ‘sits on the throne’ while Jesus, the lamb, stands before the throne?

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God is omnipresent. God can be everywhere at once. Jesus must sit on the right hand of the power of God until all His enemies are subdued under His glorified human feet. That is important. Every enemy of Adam(mankind) must be subdued by the Son of man. Then His work is finished.

But even Jesus says He sits in His Father's throne. (Revelation 3:21) So Jesus the Son indeed sits in the throne of the Father.

74x12 said:

Here are two for starters:

Isaiah 9:6
John 14:7-9

It can be seen easily enough. Just bear with me. I am going to explain this carefully so you have to follow along.

Let's establish something first. In 1 Corinthians 12:13 we find that there is only ONE Spirit for the whole body. That is you only receive one Spirit. You don't get two or three spirits. Only one. And that is the Spirit of God.

1 Corinthians 12:13
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.​

Yet in Galatians 4:6 we find that God sends the Spirit of His Son into their hearts!

Galatians 4:6
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.​

So, then the Spirit of the Father and the Spirit of the Son logically must be the same Spirit. And we will see that this is indeed true in Romans 8:9-16. Here, there is no differentiation between the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Jesus Christ. They are spoken of as one and the same Spirit.

First it speaks of the Spirit of God dwelling in you and then it says you must have the Spirit of Christ. Then it makes it clear you need the Spirit hat raised Jesus from the daed dwelling in you. Then speaking of the SAME Spirit this Spirit is called the Spirit of adoption which is how we are able to cry "Abba, Father". So this Spirit is how God identifies His children. Because the Spirit enables us to cry "Abba Father".

Now, going back to Galatians 4:6 again ... here we see that it is indeed the Spirit of the Son that cries "Abba Father". So, all this together is conclusive proof that
1. The body only receives one Spirit.
2. This Spirit is indeed the Spirit of God aka the holy Spirit.
3. This Spirit is indeed the Spirit of the Son of God which cries "Abba Father".

Now this is no surprise that the Spirit of God prays with and for us within us. If you read Romans 8:26

Romans 8:9-16
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

God dies through Jesus. God can't literally die. That's why He needed a human body. See Hebrews 10:5 "a body hast thou prepared me"

God made a human body in the womb of Mary that would be the "Lamb of God" the ultimate sacrifice.

God did it. But remember Jesus Himself is the "Word of Life" (1 John 1:1) that is the commandment to the dead to rise again to live. Jesus is literally the Word sent out from God that would give life to the dead.

Even Jesus said He would raise Himself in John 2:19.

He refers to Himself as the temple because He is speaking as God dwelling in that temple.

He was talking to God. Jesus said that He proceeded forth and came from God and that He would return to Him again. (John 8:42) So, God is able to send His Spirit out (Psalm 104:30) and the Spirit is able to return to Him again.

God is omnipresent. God can be everywhere at once. Jesus must sit on the right hand of the power of God until all His enemies are subdued under His glorified human feet. That is important. Every enemy of Adam(mankind) must be subdued by the Son of man. Then His work is finished.

But even Jesus says He sits in His Father's throne. (Revelation 3:21) So Jesus the Son indeed sits in the throne of the Father.

Click to expand...

[God dies through Jesus. God can't literally die. That's why He needed a human body.]
Sorry my friend, but I cringe on things like this when I here these things. God doesnt have to die. And God doesnt need a human body. To even think that is very disrespectful to our Heavenly Father. Jesus had to die. But for why? For what purpose?

So..... why did the Messiah have to die. The book of Hebrews (along with many other books) tells us that. Read Hebrews chapters 8-10. We also compare Hebrews 9 with Lev 16. Paul is comparing the two High Priests.

The Levitical priesthood had to sacrifice every year for the sins of Israel. The High Priest entered into the Most Holy place once a year to atone for the sins. Hebrew 9 tells us that, Christ, a High Priest himself of good things to come, entered into the Most Holy place too. But this one was different. It was a tabernacle, not made of hands, but into Heaven it's self. But why?

Christ was the perfect sacrifice. He only had to be a sacrifice only once. Why did he have to die? Because without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins. We learn that even with Adam and Eve. And because of that, we now have access to have our sins to be forgiven through baptism (Romans 6) and praying to our heavenly Father for forgiveness. We pray to God, not Jesus for that.

Why did Jesus go to heaven? Again... Hebrews 9
"For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."

So now because of the death of Jesus we now have the means of having our sins forgiven through baptisim and prayer. We can now come before the throne of Grace to pray to our Heavenly Father for forgiveness "through" his son.

moorea944 said:

[God dies through Jesus. God can't literally die. That's why He needed a human body.]
Sorry my friend, but I cringe on things like this when I here these things. God doesnt have to die. And God doesnt need a human body. To even think that is very disrespectful to our Heavenly Father. Jesus had to die. But for why? For what purpose?

So..... why did the Messiah have to die. The book of Hebrews (along with many other books) tells us that. Read Hebrews chapters 8-10. We also compare Hebrews 9 with Lev 16. Paul is comparing the two High Priests.

The Levitical priesthood had to sacrifice every year for the sins of Israel. The High Priest entered into the Most Holy place once a year to atone for the sins. Hebrew 9 tells us that, Christ, a High Priest himself of good things to come, entered into the Most Holy place too. But this one was different. It was a tabernacle, not made of hands, but into Heaven it's self. But why?

Christ was the perfect sacrifice. He only had to be a sacrifice only once. Why did he have to die? Because without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins. We learn that even with Adam and Eve. And because of that, we now have access to have our sins to be forgiven through baptism (Romans 6) and praying to our heavenly Father for forgiveness. We pray to God, not Jesus for that.

Why did Jesus go to heaven? Again... Hebrews 9
"For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."

So now because of the death of Jesus we now have the means of having our sins forgiven through baptisim and prayer. We can now come before the throne of Grace to pray to our Heavenly Father for forgiveness "through" his son.

Click to expand...

Hi moorea944,
Since you don't believe he was God manifest in the flesh. Would you explain how he created all things? as it says in Colossians 1:14-19 - considering the fact that YHWH said he made all things, and was alone and by himself in Isaiah 44:24

You could also consider the fact that the voice in the wilderness that was to prepare the way for YHWH turns out to be John the baptist in the NT. Matthew 3:1-3 Mark 1:2-3
Now I ask you - Who did John (the voice in the wilderness) prepare the way for? Didn't it have to be YHWH as foretold? Isaiah 40:3

TrueBeliever37 said:

Hi moorea944,
Since you don't believe he was God manifest in the flesh. Would you explain how he created all things? as it says in Colossians 1:14-19 - considering the fact that YHWH said he made all things, and was alone and by himself in Isaiah 44:24

You could also consider the fact that the voice in the wilderness that was to prepare the way for YHWH turns out to be John the baptist in the NT. Matthew 3:1-3 Mark 1:2-3
Now I ask you - Who did John (the voice in the wilderness) prepare the way for? Didn't it have to be YHWH as foretold? Isaiah 40:3

Click to expand...

[ Would you explain how he created all things? as it says in Colossians 1:14-19 - considering the fact that YHWH said he made all things, and was alone and by himself in Isaiah 44:24]
God created all things, Jesus didnt. He wasnt born yet. And there was no reason that he would pre-exist. Look at all of the people in the OT. What were they told of a "coming Messiah"? Were they told that the coming Messiah was already here? No, of course not. Read Deut 18 and 2 Sam 7.

Are you reading the KjV? In that version is a bad translation. It says by him, the org language reads, in him.... God created everything for his son. There is no reason that Jesus should have made everything. His Father did.


[You could also consider the fact that the voice in the wilderness that was to prepare the way for YHWH turns out to be John the baptist in the NT. Matthew 3:1-3 Mark 1:2-3]
It doesnt say Yahweh, it says Lord. But even if it did say Yahweh, that's fine too. This is our Heavenly Father's plan and purpose. Jesus is part of that. God has sent his son out to the world to reconcile the world back to God. (2 Corin 5)

[Now I ask you - Who did John (the voice in the wilderness) prepare the way for? Was it not YHWH as foretold?}
Jesus is doing the work of his father. Stop making Jesus into God. Really not quit sure why you feel that Jesus has to be God... Are you being told that in your church? Just curious....