RabbiO
הרב יונה בן זכריה
Would it be rude of me to point out that nothing you have written demonstrates any knowledge or understanding on your part of Jews and/or Judaism - historically or in the present day?
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Theosis, Salvation, and Jesus
- Thread starter Treasure Hunter
- Start date
Would it be rude of me to point out that nothing you have written demonstrates any knowledge or understanding on your part of Jews and/or Judaism - historically or in the present day?
Treasure Hunter
Well-Known Member
I have been speaking to the underlying feeling of betrayal. This is an important part of the beginning of the spiritual development journey. It is contained within the following parable that Jesus told:
14 “Again, the Kingdom of Heaven can be illustrated by the story of a man going on a long trip. He called together his servants and entrusted his money to them while he was gone. 15 He gave five bags of silver[a] to one, two bags of silver to another, and one bag of silver to the last—dividing it in proportion to their abilities. He then left on his trip.
16 “The servant who received the five bags of silver began to invest the money and earned five more. 17 The servant with two bags of silver also went to work and earned two more. 18 But the servant who received the one bag of silver dug a hole in the ground and hid the master’s money.
19 “After a long time their master returned from his trip and called them to give an account of how they had used his money. 20 The servant to whom he had entrusted the five bags of silver came forward with five more and said, ‘Master, you gave me five bags of silver to invest, and I have earned five more.’
21 “The master was full of praise. ‘Well done, my good and faithful servant. You have been faithful in handling this small amount, so now I will give you many more responsibilities. Let’s celebrate together!’
22 “The servant who had received the two bags of silver came forward and said, ‘Master, you gave me two bags of silver to invest, and I have earned two more.’
23 “The master said, ‘Well done, my good and faithful servant. You have been faithful in handling this small amount, so now I will give you many more responsibilities. Let’s celebrate together!’
24 “Then the servant with the one bag of silver came and said, ‘Master, I knew you were a harsh man, harvesting crops you didn’t plant and gathering crops you didn’t cultivate. 25 I was afraid I would lose your money, so I hid it in the earth. Look, here is your money back.’
26 “But the master replied, ‘You wicked and lazy servant! If you knew I harvested crops I didn’t plant and gathered crops I didn’t cultivate, 27 why didn’t you deposit my money in the bank? At least I could have gotten some interest on it.’
28 “Then he ordered, ‘Take the money from this servant, and give it to the one with the ten bags of silver. 29 To those who use well what they are given, even more will be given, and they will have an abundance. But from those who do nothing, even what little they have will be taken away. 30 Now throw this useless servant into outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
The master = God
This parable is a metaphor for the “game” of life. The thing to understand is that we all start off as the servant who sees God as an unjust betrayer and squanders their one bag of silver. The servant who is “lazy”, “wicked”, and who has a low expectation of what they are capable of.
We also start off as someone who is resistant to or in denial of the reality of this game. This includes the following category of people:
Naive secularist - the world is loving and accommodating
Naive theist - God is loving and accommodating
Naive Pantheist - the Universe is loving and accommodating
Atheist materialist - the world is indifferent
Deist - God is indifferent
The similarity with all of these category 1 people is that they have yet to accept the conceptualization of God, the world, or the Universe as capable of betrayal or hostility. Because of this, they don’t identify with the metaphorical game described in the parable. Since they don’t identify with it, they don’t give much of their conscious attention to it. Therefore, they play it poorly.
Category 2 people include the theist who recognizes God as capable of betrayal and hostility, but see themselves as powerless, or see themselves as sinners who are worthy of betrayal. This category also includes the secularists who see the world as hostile and also see themselves as powerless. This category of people are incrementally more accepting and consciously aware of the game, but don’t see themselves as capable of playing the game well. They are only incrementally more consciously aware of the game because there will still be the tendency to deny or not want to participate in a game that you associate with failure and pain.
In order to play the game successfully as the investor servant who regularly proves worthy of more responsibility, it is necessary to both become more consciously aware of the game and more hopeful/optimistic about the game. To do this, one should see God as a betrayer but then attempt to “redeem” God by looking deeper. Similarly, they should see their own powerlessness/limitations and attempt to look deeper.
This is where ethics come in. To help cross this bridge, we can practice in our daily lives. When we experience an injustice, we can practice forgiving that person and when we fail, we can practice forgiving ourselves. As we develop this ability, we will be more capable of redeeming God, more capable of redeeming ourselves, and as a result more aware of the game and more capable in it.
14 “Again, the Kingdom of Heaven can be illustrated by the story of a man going on a long trip. He called together his servants and entrusted his money to them while he was gone. 15 He gave five bags of silver[a] to one, two bags of silver to another, and one bag of silver to the last—dividing it in proportion to their abilities. He then left on his trip.
16 “The servant who received the five bags of silver began to invest the money and earned five more. 17 The servant with two bags of silver also went to work and earned two more. 18 But the servant who received the one bag of silver dug a hole in the ground and hid the master’s money.
19 “After a long time their master returned from his trip and called them to give an account of how they had used his money. 20 The servant to whom he had entrusted the five bags of silver came forward with five more and said, ‘Master, you gave me five bags of silver to invest, and I have earned five more.’
21 “The master was full of praise. ‘Well done, my good and faithful servant. You have been faithful in handling this small amount, so now I will give you many more responsibilities. Let’s celebrate together!’
22 “The servant who had received the two bags of silver came forward and said, ‘Master, you gave me two bags of silver to invest, and I have earned two more.’
23 “The master said, ‘Well done, my good and faithful servant. You have been faithful in handling this small amount, so now I will give you many more responsibilities. Let’s celebrate together!’
24 “Then the servant with the one bag of silver came and said, ‘Master, I knew you were a harsh man, harvesting crops you didn’t plant and gathering crops you didn’t cultivate. 25 I was afraid I would lose your money, so I hid it in the earth. Look, here is your money back.’
26 “But the master replied, ‘You wicked and lazy servant! If you knew I harvested crops I didn’t plant and gathered crops I didn’t cultivate, 27 why didn’t you deposit my money in the bank? At least I could have gotten some interest on it.’
28 “Then he ordered, ‘Take the money from this servant, and give it to the one with the ten bags of silver. 29 To those who use well what they are given, even more will be given, and they will have an abundance. But from those who do nothing, even what little they have will be taken away. 30 Now throw this useless servant into outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
The master = God
This parable is a metaphor for the “game” of life. The thing to understand is that we all start off as the servant who sees God as an unjust betrayer and squanders their one bag of silver. The servant who is “lazy”, “wicked”, and who has a low expectation of what they are capable of.
We also start off as someone who is resistant to or in denial of the reality of this game. This includes the following category of people:
Naive secularist - the world is loving and accommodating
Naive theist - God is loving and accommodating
Naive Pantheist - the Universe is loving and accommodating
Atheist materialist - the world is indifferent
Deist - God is indifferent
The similarity with all of these category 1 people is that they have yet to accept the conceptualization of God, the world, or the Universe as capable of betrayal or hostility. Because of this, they don’t identify with the metaphorical game described in the parable. Since they don’t identify with it, they don’t give much of their conscious attention to it. Therefore, they play it poorly.
Category 2 people include the theist who recognizes God as capable of betrayal and hostility, but see themselves as powerless, or see themselves as sinners who are worthy of betrayal. This category also includes the secularists who see the world as hostile and also see themselves as powerless. This category of people are incrementally more accepting and consciously aware of the game, but don’t see themselves as capable of playing the game well. They are only incrementally more consciously aware of the game because there will still be the tendency to deny or not want to participate in a game that you associate with failure and pain.
In order to play the game successfully as the investor servant who regularly proves worthy of more responsibility, it is necessary to both become more consciously aware of the game and more hopeful/optimistic about the game. To do this, one should see God as a betrayer but then attempt to “redeem” God by looking deeper. Similarly, they should see their own powerlessness/limitations and attempt to look deeper.
This is where ethics come in. To help cross this bridge, we can practice in our daily lives. When we experience an injustice, we can practice forgiving that person and when we fail, we can practice forgiving ourselves. As we develop this ability, we will be more capable of redeeming God, more capable of redeeming ourselves, and as a result more aware of the game and more capable in it.
izzy88
Active Member
Of course not; God does not need anything, he is perfect - pure actuality, which means zero potentiality.
But in giving us rational minds with freedom of will, he has chosen to allow us to help him with creation. Of course, we can't actually change the course of God's plan, we are simply part of it, and whatever we do is going to be something that God accounted for. Think of it like a father building a shelf and allowing his small child to help him. Obviously the father could build the shelf without the child's help, and the child isn't contributing anything practical to the building of the shelf; the child is simply there because the father loves it and wants to share this experience with it.
Treasure Hunter
Well-Known Member
One common theme of Jesus’ teaching is that the Kingdom of Heaven will not come about the way we think it will. We should be skeptical of our speculations and follow the highest truth in whichever direction it takes us.
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
That makes humans sound helpless and worthless. Just a tool of God.
izzy88
Active Member
We are certainly helpless compared to the infinite and omnipotent Creator who is solely responsible for holding us and everything else in the universe in existence at every moment, but that certainly doesn't mean we're worthless or tools, and I have no idea how you got that from what I said.
Does the father see his small child as a worthless tool in my example?
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
In your example, the child is mainly an observer. He sees what the parent is doing but has little to contribute to the process. Maybe humans are just observing what God is doing and have little to add to it.
MNoBody
Well-Known Member
well, according to the oldest stories there is a God who appointed a set time period for Adam/Eve and their seed to be in this world as a consequence of their actions
the time has been long debated and contemplated and thought to have been imminent and still hasn't happened......
and according to the context of the question set by the OP
the time has been long debated and contemplated and thought to have been imminent and still hasn't happened......
and according to the context of the question set by the OP
Treasure Hunter
Well-Known Member
Another thing that needs mentioning: We do not fear what happens after bodily death. That is a projection. This took me a long time to clarify.
We can fear or be anxious about a possible life threatening event, but the nothingness that represents existence after bodily death, we do not fear. The resistance to Theosis only makes us believe we do.
We DO fear the chaotic unknown, which is the path toward Theosis. This fear gets projected and deflected into thinking about what happens after bodily death. It is a counterfeit fear. As we make progress toward Theosis, any fear that is associated with existence after bodily death dissipates.
We can fear or be anxious about a possible life threatening event, but the nothingness that represents existence after bodily death, we do not fear. The resistance to Theosis only makes us believe we do.
We DO fear the chaotic unknown, which is the path toward Theosis. This fear gets projected and deflected into thinking about what happens after bodily death. It is a counterfeit fear. As we make progress toward Theosis, any fear that is associated with existence after bodily death dissipates.
Treasure Hunter
Well-Known Member
Use fear to orient and focus toward the status hierarchy. Do individual development within this context of climbing the status hierarchy. If you feel a sense of urgency, like you are falling behind, or are not living up to your potential fully, grab hold or at least stay within contact of that feeling.
Use resistance to reach down into the darkness and pull up fire. Mind your ethics.
Use the feeling of betrayal to see the truth of the hostility of the world toward our desire for eros.
Use acceptance, forgiveness, hope, and faith to look deeper.
Use dread and apathy as a call to conscious awareness. It is a sign that the enemy is getting nervous.
Use self sabotage as a call to maximize conscious awareness. The enemy is weakened and it’s time to seize control.
Use the maximization of self doubt combined with self loathing as a sign to sink and turn inward. It is the time to turn the betrayal from external to internal. A leap of faith is required here.
Use resistance to reach down into the darkness and pull up fire. Mind your ethics.
Use the feeling of betrayal to see the truth of the hostility of the world toward our desire for eros.
Use acceptance, forgiveness, hope, and faith to look deeper.
Use dread and apathy as a call to conscious awareness. It is a sign that the enemy is getting nervous.
Use self sabotage as a call to maximize conscious awareness. The enemy is weakened and it’s time to seize control.
Use the maximization of self doubt combined with self loathing as a sign to sink and turn inward. It is the time to turn the betrayal from external to internal. A leap of faith is required here.
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
@Treasure Hunter
First, thank you for sharing your thoughts. Generally I agree. I would just like to share a slightly different view on some points.
First, thank you for sharing your thoughts. Generally I agree. I would just like to share a slightly different view on some points.
Regarding order and chaos I think it desires balance (yin-yang). For example love without surprises is just routine.
Some beliefs are central - belief in good, some are not so important e. g. virgin birth. I think intentions and implementation is of the same (if not more) importance.
There something called mindfulness. Awaken people have a still mind and are fully present in the now.
Again I would rather point out balance: tradition and innovation.
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
Love cannot be forced.
Treasure Hunter
Well-Known Member
Jacob Samuelson
Active Member
I will get back to you on this, as this topic is very subjective, I might just have to start a thread for those who are Muslim and who are Jews to get a clearer answer. My sources to this come from my conversations with friends from these respective faiths. However, they can't speak for everyone, but suffice it to say that Jesus' influence is largely spread into those faith whether negatively or positively.
Matthew 5 isn't opposing Jewish thought, sorry for the confusion, but it is a good source to show how Jewish thought was, and how according to Christ, it should be.
Hmmm, I might need more clarification on this view on salvation. What do you mean by 'complete those spiritually handicapped'? What process does this look like? Is it like overcoming an addiction, developing good habits? Where could I find this written or stated by God? I like how we are constantly developing ourselves, but how can one say they are spiritually handicap if everyone has the ability to generate a strong spirit. Physically, however, we are not able to self-generate eyes if we are not born with them or arms. Yet spiritually we are able to develop kindness and compassion freely in my opinion. Unless you believe that there are some born without those as well and will never be able to. As far as salvation, is God merciful to all of us? What if we didn't care less about developing ourselves, will God's mercy cover that and just admit us to Heaven. How far will God's mercy be? To what point is God's mercy fair for those who live daily in his will? Sorry for all the questions. I'm a firm believer in character development and I absolutely agree the world needs it, but where and how does God fit in to this?
To be honest I don't actually know what the process looks like, it could be that after death of the body the suffering of the spiritually handicapped soul is enough to encourage them to develop character attributes, or maybe the mercy of God completes them in some other way.
Although I could point you to writings alleged to be of God, I would not be remaining true to my authentic self to do so. I don't believe God writes or states anything. Instead I believe God inspires us through the coloured lense of our own individual flaws, which explains the flaws found in all writings alleged to be of God.
You are thinking of a handicap as an externally imposed thing here, not all handicaps are externally imposed. Spiritual handicaps are the limitations we place upon ourselves through failure to develop the virtues in this life, resulting in a temporary handicap in the next life proportionate to our failure to develop the virtues here.
I believe God is merciful to all of us. No God's mercy will not give us any automatic tickets, rather the spiritual suffering we go through in the next life will compel us to grow spiritually if we failed to avoid that suffering by developing the virtues here in this life. Those who live daily in God's will will find themselves richly rewarded through being empowered souls from the moment of passing/birth into the spiritual world.
Jacob Samuelson
Active Member
It would not, it would be a pleasure to learn if I am wrong. From my understanding and I pray you will correct me, Jesus was a Jewish rabbi and his audience were Jews as well. As for historic influence, early Christians weren't Christians at all, they were Jews who heard and converted to Christ's and John's teachings that He was the Messiah. This doesn't dissuade from him being a prophet as well, at least to that audience, which was not a few. Perhaps the mainstream Jews at the time weren't in agreement with their dissenters, but his influence wasn't ignored, as they petitioned that Christ would be killed. The question stands, Did the Jewish people have a part to play in the martyrdom of the Christ? Or was it Christ's popularity that caused the Romans to put Him to death? What does Jewish history tell us about this, perhaps it is different than what is written? Is it not written that it was Jews who killed their prophets of old as well? What is your understanding on that? For the most part, even today, I want to say the Jewish have very mixed feelings on Jesus. Perhaps to show respect to the Christians, from who I have talked to they claim that he was a great rabbi who was misinterpreted, similar to how Muslims revere him to be a great prophet, but not the Son of God. Perhaps you have seen both sides of this argument, would you mind presenting your understanding on this matter of Jesus?
Jacob Samuelson
Active Member
I really appreciate this sentiment. You, unlike many I have talked to, rely more upon your heart or what you feel is right, then what you interpret to be right, based on what is written. This allows men's interpretations to be absent from the way you believe, which is a necessity if you are truly able to communicate with God. God's voice is not someone shouting at you the words of scripture proclaiming a supposed truth, it actually is the small voice that compels you to do better. This is right. 1st Kings 19: 11-12. I also appreciate that you don't pretend to know everything, which is a big relief. I believe that men are the ones who wrote the scriptures, which means there are mistakes and flaws in interpreting them, however I also believe that these same men are those who were able to hear God directly. I believe that all scriptures that were written to get us closer to God are good as they help us to understand how to obtain His salvation. 2 Timothy 3: 16. Because it is hard to know what is of God, I agree with you that we need to go to the source of all truth which is God. I invite you to read James 1:5-10. In it is exactly what we were talking about. I believe that if there was one thing in this life we needed to accomplish, it would be to know who God. John 17:3
No group of Jews consider Jesus a prophet. Jesus has nothing whatsoever to do with our faith.
Jacob Samuelson
Active Member
The Jewish People and Belief in Jesus | Jewish Voice Ministries International... No group of Jews believes this? Could you explain this site I'm fairly certain that a Jew wrote it. To say no group requires extensive knowledge of every group within your faith. How many groups are there? Perhaps a prophet is a stretch, but wasnt he a rabbi in your faith?
I don't agree that James 1:5-10 reflects what we were talking about (which I would summarise as the need to acquire virtues).
James 1:5-10 appears to be a groundless polemic against those without faith. It accuses them of being "double-minded", and "unstable" in "all" their "ways".