The origins of monotheism, the one true God, and men pretending to speak for the one true God

dfnj · Apr 14, 2020

I recently watched an episode from Morgan Freeman's TV series on God. Here is the segment:

Akhenaten got rid of all the major Egyptian gods and invented Aten another name for Ra the sun god. Aten was to be worshiped as the only one true god. And Akhenaten claimed he was the only spokesman for Aten on Earth. Akhenaten's will was Aten's will.

"Others have likened some aspects of Akhenaten's relationship with the Aten to the relationship, in Christian tradition, between Jesus Christ and God, particularly interpretations that emphasize a more monotheistic interpretation of Atenism than a henotheistic one."

Akhenaten became a single high king priest and the high priests of the other gods lost all their power as all the power was accumulated under a single monarchy. This made the once powerful priests very angry! The priests who lost their power wanted to crucify Akhenaten!

"The idea that Akhenaten was the pioneer of a monotheistic religion that later became Judaism has been considered by various scholars."

Akhenaten - Wikipedia

But not surprisingly Jewish scholars have poo-poo'd the idea their religion of monotheism was not of their own invention:

"There is little or no evidence to support the notion that Akhenaten was a progenitor of the full-blown monotheism that we find in the Bible. The monotheism of the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament had its own separate development – one that began more than half a millennium after the pharaoh's death."

But the similarities are too obvious. Psalm 104 and "Great Hymn to the Aten" are practically identical. Prior to Akhenaten monotheism simply did not exist anywhere in recorded history. Akhenaten was the first to invent it. And it was hugely successful in consolidating power!

This idea of a single "Lord" God where the king on Earth forms a divine monarchy was very appealing to those who desire absolute power over their subjects. The "messenger" of God holds tremendous power over the people who buy into the message.

King James was a big proponent of the divine rights of kings as outlined in his book The True Law of Free Monarchies.

The True Law of Free Monarchies - Wikipedia

The idea of the divine rights of kings I find is somewhat evil, selfish, and self-serving for the person in the position of power. But you be the judge:

"The divine right of kings, divine right, or God's mandate is a political and religious doctrine of royal and political legitimacy. It stems from a specific metaphysical framework in which the king (or queen) is pre-selected as a heir prior to their birth. By pre-selecting the king's physical manifestation, the governed populace actively (rather than merely passively) hands the metaphysical selection of the king's soul – which will inhabit the body and thereby rule them – over to God. In this way, the "divine right" originates as a metaphysical act of humility or submission towards the Godhead. Consequentially, it asserts that a monarch (e.g. a king) is subject to no earthly authority, deriving the right to rule directly from a divine authority, like the monotheist will of God. The monarch is thus not subject to the will of his people, of the aristocracy, or of any other estate of the realm. It implies that only divine authority can judge an unjust monarch and that any attempt to depose, dethrone or restrict their powers runs contrary to God's will and may constitute a sacrilegious act. It is often expressed in the phrase "by the Grace of God", attached to the titles of a reigning monarch; although this right does not make the monarch the same as a sacred king. The divine right has been a key element for legitimizing many absolute monarchies."

Essentially the king speaks for God because the king and God are of the same mind.

This has a long history in Christianity:

"Outside of Christianity,[clarification needed] kings were often seen as either ruling with the backing of heavenly powers or perhaps even being divine beings themselves. However, the Christian notion of a divine right of kings is traced to a story found in 1 Samuel, where the prophet Samuel anoints Saul and then David as mashiach or king over Israel. The anointing is to such an effect that the monarch became inviolable, so that even when Saul sought to kill David, David would not raise his hand against him because "he was the Lord's anointed"."

All throughout history hundreds of people have claimed to be messengers for God:

List of people who have been considered deities - Wikipedia

Kings are supposedly messengers of God. I have a tough time with this idea of divine monarchy. I think the Bible is written as authoritarian propaganda justifying monarchy as divine government. I live in the New York City area where there's an expression, "He's selling you the Brooklyn bridge.". The idea is shysters will sell you something they do not own. This is how I feel about the divine rights of kings. I feel like whoever is in power is being shyster selling something they do not own.

I feel the mind of God is beyond our comprehension and no one speaks for God.

So what do you think? Are kings and messengers of God claiming to speak for God nothing but shysters pretending to know the mind of God? Or are you believing someone selling you the Brooklyn bridge is legitimate?

danieldemol · Apr 14, 2020

dfnj said:
I recently watched an episode from Morgan Freeman's TV series on God. Here is the segment:

Akhenaten got rid of all the major Egyptian gods and invented Aten another name for Ra the sun god. Aten was to be worshiped as the only one true god. And Akhenaten claimed he was the only spokesman for Aten on Earth. Akhenaten's will was Aten's will.

"Others have likened some aspects of Akhenaten's relationship with the Aten to the relationship, in Christian tradition, between Jesus Christ and God, particularly interpretations that emphasize a more monotheistic interpretation of Atenism than a henotheistic one."

Akhenaten became a single high king priest and the high priests of the other gods lost all their power as all the power was accumulated under a single monarchy. This made the once powerful priests very angry! The priests who lost their power wanted to crucify Akhenaten!

"The idea that Akhenaten was the pioneer of a monotheistic religion that later became Judaism has been considered by various scholars."

Akhenaten - Wikipedia

But not surprisingly Jewish scholars have poo-poo'd the idea their religion of monotheism was not of their own invention:

"There is little or no evidence to support the notion that Akhenaten was a progenitor of the full-blown monotheism that we find in the Bible. The monotheism of the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament had its own separate development – one that began more than half a millennium after the pharaoh's death."

But the similarities are too obvious. Psalm 104 and "Great Hymn to the Aten" are practically identical. Prior to Akhenaten monotheism simply did not exist anywhere in recorded history. Akhenaten was the first to invent it. And it was hugely successful in consolidating power!

This idea of a single "Lord" God where the king on Earth forms a divine monarchy was very appealing to those who desire absolute power over their subjects. The "messenger" of God holds tremendous power over the people who buy into the message.

King James was a big proponent of the divine rights of kings as outlined in his book The True Law of Free Monarchies.

The True Law of Free Monarchies - Wikipedia

The idea of the divine rights of kings I find is somewhat evil, selfish, and self-serving for the person in the position of power. But you be the judge:

"The divine right of kings, divine right, or God's mandate is a political and religious doctrine of royal and political legitimacy. It stems from a specific metaphysical framework in which the king (or queen) is pre-selected as a heir prior to their birth. By pre-selecting the king's physical manifestation, the governed populace actively (rather than merely passively) hands the metaphysical selection of the king's soul – which will inhabit the body and thereby rule them – over to God. In this way, the "divine right" originates as a metaphysical act of humility or submission towards the Godhead. Consequentially, it asserts that a monarch (e.g. a king) is subject to no earthly authority, deriving the right to rule directly from a divine authority, like the monotheist will of God. The monarch is thus not subject to the will of his people, of the aristocracy, or of any other estate of the realm. It implies that only divine authority can judge an unjust monarch and that any attempt to depose, dethrone or restrict their powers runs contrary to God's will and may constitute a sacrilegious act. It is often expressed in the phrase "by the Grace of God", attached to the titles of a reigning monarch; although this right does not make the monarch the same as a sacred king. The divine right has been a key element for legitimizing many absolute monarchies."

Essentially the king speaks for God because the king and God are of the same mind.

This has a long history in Christianity:

"Outside of Christianity,[clarification needed] kings were often seen as either ruling with the backing of heavenly powers or perhaps even being divine beings themselves. However, the Christian notion of a divine right of kings is traced to a story found in 1 Samuel, where the prophet Samuel anoints Saul and then David as mashiach or king over Israel. The anointing is to such an effect that the monarch became inviolable, so that even when Saul sought to kill David, David would not raise his hand against him because "he was the Lord's anointed"."

All throughout history hundreds of people have claimed to be messengers for God:

List of people who have been considered deities - Wikipedia

Kings are supposedly messengers of God. I have a tough time with this idea of divine monarchy. I think the Bible is written as authoritarian propaganda justifying monarchy as divine government. I live in the New York City area where there's an expression, "He's selling you the Brooklyn bridge.". The idea is shysters will sell you something they do not own. This is how I feel about the divine rights of kings. I feel like whoever is in power is being shyster selling something they do not own.

I feel the mind of God is beyond our comprehension and no one speaks for God.

So what do you think? Are kings and messengers of God claiming to speak for God nothing but shysters pretending to know the mind of God? Or are you believing someone selling you the Brooklyn bridge is legitimate?

I think you have tied the concept of the divine right of kings into monotheism without demonstrating that it is an essential concept of monotheism.

IOW you can have democracy and monotheism just as you can have Kings in the abscence of monotheism (consider pre-Christian Rome)

paarsurrey · Apr 14, 2020

danieldemol said:
I think you have tied the concept of the divine right of kings into monotheism without demonstrating that it is an essential concept of monotheism.

IOW you can have democracy and monotheism just as you can have Kings in the abscence of monotheism (consider pre-Christian Rome)

Yes, there is no contradiction in democracy and Oneness of G-d. I understand, Oneness exists irrespective of the form of rule of a country. Right, please?

Regards

dfnj · Apr 14, 2020

List of people claiming to be a divine messenger of God:

Pharaohs

3150 BCE–30 BCE Egyptian pharaohs were kings of Ancient Egypt, and were considered gods by their culture. Their titles equated them with aspects of the likes of the hawk god Horus, the vulture goddess Nekhbet, and the cobra-goddess Wadjet. The Egyptians believed that when their Pharaoh died, he would continue to lead them in the next life, which is why his burial was grand and completed to perfection—to please him in the next life and ensure his immortality to protect his people. See List of pharaohs.[1][2]
Japanese emperors

660 BCE–1945 CE Claimed, at least by some Shintoists, including government officials, to be divine descendants of the goddess Amaterasu. Hirohito, the Shōwa emperor, repudiated the "false conception" of his divinity in the Humanity Declaration in 1945.[3]
Chinese emperors

221 BCE–1911 CE Deified as "Sons of Heaven" since the Qin Dynasty under Qin Shi Huang.[4]
Roman emperors

42 BCE – 363 CE Following Julius Caesar who in 42 BCE was formally deified as "the Divine Julius", and Caesar Augustus henceforth became Divi filius ("Son of the Divine One"), some (not all) Roman Emperors of the 1st to 4th centuries claimed divinity, including Tiberius 14–37, Caligula 37–41, Claudius 41–54, Hadrian 117–138, Commodus 161–192, Constantine I 306–312, Julian the Apostate 361–363
Further information: Imperial cult (ancient Rome), Augustus (honorific), and Augusta (honorific)
Natchez rulers

700 CE The Natchez were a theocracy ruled by "The Great Sun." This ruler has sometimes been deemed a God-king.[5]
The Sailendras

700 CE The Sailendra dynasty of Java were active promoters of Mahayana Buddhism and covered the plains of Central Java with Buddhist monuments, including the world-famous Borobudur.[6]
Majapahit kings

1293–1597 Javanese rulers of South East Asia's largest ever kingdom, in Indonesia. After death, they were depicted as Hindu gods (see for instance Raden Wijaya).
Dalai Lamas

1391–present Considered re-incarnations of Avalokiteśvara in Tibetan Buddhism. Panchen Lamas are incarnations of Amitābha.[7][8][9]
Inca emperors

1438 The Inca Emperors had a status very similar to that of the Pharaohs of Egypt.
Nepalese kings

1768–2008 In Nepal, the kings of the Shah dynasty were considered incarnations of Vishnu.[10]
Posthumous deification

dfnj · Apr 14, 2020

Gilgamesh

Sometime between 2800 BCE and 2500 BCE[11] Most historians generally agree that Gilgamesh was a historical king of the Sumerian city-state of Uruk,[12][11] who probably ruled sometime during the early part of the Early Dynastic Period (c. 2900–2350 BCE).[12][11] It is certain that, during the later Early Dynastic Period, Gilgamesh was worshipped as a god at various locations across Sumer.[12] In the twenty-first century BCE, Utu-hengal, the king of Uruk adopted Gilgamesh as his patron deity.[12] The kings of the Third Dynasty of Ur were especially fond of Gilgamesh, calling him their "divine brother" and "friend".[12] During this period, a large number of myths and legends developed surrounding him.[12] Probably during the Middle Babylonian Period (c. 1600 BCE – c. 1155 BCE), a scribe named Sîn-lēqi-unninni composed the Epic of Gilgamesh, an epic poem written in Akkadian narrating Gilgamesh's heroic exploits.[12] The opening of the poem describes Gilgamesh as "one-third human, two-thirds divine".[12]
Imhotep

2600 BCE Ancient Egyptian architect and physician whose status, two thousand years after his death, was raised to that of a god, becoming the god of medicine and healing. He was an Egyptian chancellor to the pharaoh Djoser, probable architect of the Djoser's step pyramid, and high priest of the sun god Ra at Heliopolis. The gradual deification of Imhotep seems to have been completed about 525 BCE. His divinity is clearly attested a inscription, adjancent to his picture in the Ptolemeic temple at Kasr el-Agouz, near Luxor: „Son of Ptah, beneficient god, begotten by the god of the south wall (Ptah), giver of life, who bestows gifts on those he loves, who listen (to those who call upon him), who provides remedies for all diseas“. Imhotep’s deification led to the deification of his mother named Kheredu-ankh and his wife Renpetnefert. In Memphis and on the sacred Island of Philae existed temples dedicated to him. The Greeks identified Imhotep with their own divine healer and physician, Asclepios (which also healed people in their dreams).[13]
Queen Dido of Carthage

814 BCE Founder and first queen of Carthage, after her death, she was deified by her people with the name of Tanit and assimilated to the Great Goddess Astarte (Roman Juno).[14] The cult of Tanit survived Carthage's destruction by the Romans; it was introduced to Rome itself by Emperor Septimius Severus, himself born in North Africa. It was extinguished completely with the Theodosian decrees of the late 4th century.
Homer

8th century BCE Venerated at Alexandria by Ptolemy IV Philopator.
Romulus and Remus

771–717 BCE Founders of Rome, sons of Mars, Romulus served as first king. Romulus was, according to the book History of Rome (written between 27 and 9 BC by the historian Titus Livius), the son of Rhea Silvia, a Vestal Virgin which became pregnant with the twins Romulus and Remus by the god Mars.[15] After his death, Romulus was defined as the god Quirinus, the divine persona of the Roman people. Romulus ascension to heaven and deification as god Quirinus is mentioned in Ovid’s poem Metamorphoses, Book 14 (written shortly before 8 AD). Ovid depicts god Jupiter promising Mars the right to translate his son Romulus to immortality.[16] He is now regarded as a mythological figure, and his name a back-formation from the name Rome, which may ultimately derive from a word for "river". Some scholars, notably Andrea Carandini believe in the historicity of Romulus, in part because of the 1988 discovery of the Murus Romuli on the north slope of the Palatine Hill in Rome.[17]

dfnj · Apr 14, 2020

The Buddha

563 BCE (?) Believed a god by some Mahayana sects, and worshipped as an avatar of Vishnu by some Vaishnavas.

Pythagoras of Samos

c. 570–495 BCE Pythagoras was the eponymous founder of the religion of Pythagoreanism.[18] A posthumous legend claimed that Pythagoras was the mortal incarnation of the "Hyperborean Apollo"[19][20] and that he proved his divinity to Abaris the Hyperborean by showing him his golden thigh.[19]

Hephaestion

356–324 BCE Deified by Alexander the Great

Alexander the Great

356–323 BCE Some believe he implied he was a demigod by actively using the title "Son of Ammon–Zeus". The title was bestowed upon him by Egyptian priests of the god Ammon at the Oracle of the god at the Siwah oasis in the Libyan Desert.[21]

Jesus of Nazareth

1st century
Further information: History of early Christianity, Pauline Christianity, Christology, and Dating the Bible § Table IV: New Testament
The Pauline epistles from the early second half of the 1st century CE offer the earliest references to Jesus as the Son of God (See Romans 1 for example). The First Council of Nicaea of 325 CE crystallized this notion in the Nicene creed and declared Jesus God Incarnate. Early Christian denominations with different christologies such as the Ebionites fell in popularity, and he is now considered divine in most Christian views of Jesus (God the Son in Trinitarian Christianity).

See also: § Self-deification

Antinous

111–130 CE Deified by Hadrian. He is the last non-Imperial human formally deified in Western civilization.

Mary, mother of Jesus

300 CE In 300 CE she was worshipped as a Mother Goddess in the Christian sect Collyridianism, which was found throughout Thrace. Collyridianism was made up mostly of women followers and female priests. Followers of Collyridianism were known to make bread and wheat offerings to the Virgin Mary, along with other sacrificial practices. The cult was heavily condemned as heretical and schismatic by other Christians and was preached against by Epiphanius of Salamis, who discussed the group in his recollective writings titled Panarion.

Guan Yu

581–618 CE Guan Yu has been deified as early as the Sui Dynasty and is still popularly worshipped today among the Chinese people variedly as an indigenous Chinese deity, a bodhisattva in Buddhism and a guardian deity in Taoism. He is also held in high esteem in Confucianism. In Hong Kong both police and gangsters consider him a divine object of reverence. In certain schools of Taoism and Chinese Buddhism he has been deemed divine or semi-divine status. The reverence for him may date back to the Sui dynasty.[22]

dfnj · Apr 14, 2020

Ali

599–661 CE According to the Alawite faith, Ali ibn Abi Talib is one member of a trinity (Ali-Muhammad-Salman the Persian) corresponding roughly to the Christian Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He is considered the second emanation of God by Yarsan and the supreme deity in Ali-Illahism.

Sugawara no Michizane

845–903 CE Japanese Imperial courtier banished from the capital and deified upon his death to appease his angry spirit. Worshipped as Tenjin, kami of scholarship.

Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah

985–1021 CE Sixth Fatimid Caliph in Egypt, ruling from 996 to 1021. The members of the Druze faith believe that the Fatimid Caliph Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah is the Mahdi. The Muslim scholar and early preacher Nashtakin ad-Darazi claimed that the Caliph was God incarnate. Because of that he was executed by Al-Hakim who did not proclaim he that he was God. The druze today do reject Ad-Darazi's preaching completely[23][24][25][26][27]

Tokugawa Ieyasu

1616 Deified posthumously with the name Tōshō Daigongen by his successors.

Hu Tianbao 17th Century According to What the Master Would Not Discuss (Chinese: 子不語), written by Yuan Mei (Chinese: 袁枚) during the Qing dynasty, Tu'er Shen was a man named Hu Tianbao (胡天保) who fell in love with a very handsome imperial inspector of Fujian Province. One day he was caught peeping on the inspector through a bathroom wall, at which point he confessed his reluctant affections for the other man. The imperial inspector had Hu Tianbao sentenced to death by beating. One month after Hu Tianbao's death, he appeared to a man from his hometown in a dream, claiming that since his crime was one of love, the underworld officials decided to right the injustice by appointing him the god and safeguarder of homosexual affections.[28]
Gauchito Gil

1840s, allegedly 1847 Venerated as a Folk saint and deity in Argentina.

George Washington

1865 Worshipped as a kami in Hawaiian Shinto shrines.[29] In the United States Capitol dome, he is also depicted ascending into Heaven and becoming a god, in the famous painting called The Apotheosis of Washington.

Kanichi Otsuka 1891 Shinreikyo states of its founder "God became one with a human body, appeared among humanity, and founded Shinreikyo."[30]
L. L. Zamenhof

20th century Considered a god by members of the Oomoto religion.

José Rizal

20th century Deified by some people in the Philippines due to his contributions to the Philippine Revolution.[31][32]

Wallace Fard Muhammad 20th century Posthumously (?) deified by Elijah Muhammad. He is also given other titles by the Nation of Islam.[33]
Mother Teresa

1997 Worshipped as a Hindu goddess by some inhabitants of Kolkata.[34]

The list is endless

dfnj · Apr 14, 2020

Naram-Sin

2255–2119 BCE The first Mesopotamian king to claim divinity.[47]
Empedocles of Acragas

c. 490 – c. 430 BCE Empedocles of Acragas was a Pre-Socratic philosopher from the island of Sicily, who, in one of his surviving poems, declares himself to have become a "divine being... no longer mortal",[48] followed by descriptions of him performing activities normally reserved for the gods.[48] The later historian Diogenes Laërtius claimed that Empedocles committed suicide by jumping into Mount Etna in order to persuade people that he was an immortal god,[49] a legend which is also alluded to by the Roman poet Horace.[50]
Pharnavaz I of Iberia

326–234 BCE Iberian king (r. 299–234 BCE)
Antiochus IV Epiphanes

215–164 BCE Seleucid ruler (r. 175–164); the only Seleucid king to claim divine honors, calling himself Theos Epiphaneus "God Manifest" and Nikephoros "Bringer of Victory." Nearly conquered Ptolemaic Egypt, the primary rival of the Seleucids among the Diadochi states. Famously attempted to impose ancient Greek religion on the Jews by persecution, leading to the Maccabean Revolt; remembered as a major persecutor in Jewish tradition.[38]
Antiochus I Theos

c. 86 BCE–38 BCE King of Commagene who instituted a cult for himself and several syncretistic Graeco-Persian deities at Mount Nemrud and elsewhere.[51]
Jesus

1st century The Gospel of John (dating from the late 1st century or 2nd century CE) reports him as hinting at, or claiming to be God in passages such as John 10:30[52] and John 14:9.[53]
See also: § Posthumous deification
Simon Magus

1st century Considered a god in Simonianism. According to Irenaeus, he "was glorified by many as if he were a god; and he taught that it was himself who appeared among the Jews as the Son, but descended in Samaria as the Father while he came to other nations in the character of the Holy Spirit. He represented himself, in a word, as being the loftiest of all powers, that is, the Being who is the Father over all, and he allowed himself to be called by whatsoever title men were pleased to address him."[54]
Veleda

1st century Germanic prophetess considered a deity during her lifetime.
Ismail I

16th century Self-claimed to be an emanation of God and was considered such by the Kızılbaş-Safaviya order, Qizilbash-Turkman subjects and Alevis.[55][56][57]
Danila Filippovich

1700 He believed that he was God and started the Khlysts. (There are various transliterations of his name including Danila Filipov, Danila Filipich, and Daniil Filippovich.)[58]
Kondratii Selivanov

1780s Kondraty Selivanov proclaimed himself both as the late Peter III of Russia and Christ himself, and started the Skoptsy.
Ghanshyam Pandey

1781–1830 Guru and God of the Swaminarayan Sect. His followers consider him to be the most supreme of all gods (Sarvopari) and the original god who gives Powers to All including the prime Hindu gods:- Krishna, Shiva, Durga, Ganesh and Surya.[5]
Some of his major disciples are accused of interpolating the original Sanskrit texts and for deliberate mistranslations of ancient Hindu scriptures inorder to prove Ghanshyam Pandey as the supreme god; degrading the original Hindu gods.[6]

Hong Xiuquan

19th century Chinese man who claimed he was the younger brother of Jesus, and thus a son of God. Led the Taiping Rebellion, conquering a large part of China before defeat and suicide.

dfnj · Apr 14, 2020

Aleister Crowley

1904 British ceremonial magician who created the religion of Thelema and presented himself as the avatar of Heru-ra-ha. Claimed that Christianity would be replaced by "Crowleyanity".
Dios Buhawi ~1887 Philippine shaman who called himself "God Whirlwind."
Father Divine ~20th century His followers considered him God in the flesh.[59]
Taher Saifuddin

20th century Claimed to be Ilah'ul-Ard (God on Earth) in Bombay High Court.[60][61]
Lou de Palingboer

20th century A divorced Dutchman named Louwrens Voorthuijzen who proclaimed himself "Lou the Eel Vendor", this being the translation of his proclaimed name "Lou de Palingboer". He was a figure who mixed marketing European eels with proselytism. His followers also considered him a living God on a mission against evil.[62]
Jehovah Wanyonyi 20th century "I am the one who created Adam and Eve. I made their bodies and their blood", […] "I still use human beings by speaking through them, like I spoke through Jesus Christ until he went to Heaven." There are between 120 and a 1000 followers who consider him God.[63][64]
Sathya Sai Baba

20th century Hindu guru that followers believed was a reincarnation of an avatar of Dattatreya. He alleged that he had the ability to heal, raise the dead, appear in more than one location at the same time, materialize objects, such as jewellery, etc.
Yahweh ben Yahweh 20th century He was born as Hulon Mitchell, Jr. and his self-proclaimed name means "God, Son of God." He could have only been deeming himself son of God, not God, but many of his followers clearly consider him God Incarnate.[65][66]
Mitsuo Matayoshi

20th century In 1997 he established the World Economic Community Party (世界経済共同体党) based on his conviction that he is the God and Christ.[67]
Meher Baba

~1930 An Indian spiritual master who said he was the Avatar,[68][69][70] God in human form.[71][72]
Adolf Hitler

1934–1945 Upon becoming Führer, Adolf Hitler was largely glorified as a deity and saviour by Nazi propaganda.[73] Various historians and writers have alluded to the religious aspects of Nazism, and commentators of the era have noted the Third Reich's 'cultic appeal'.[74] Reichsminister for Propaganda Joseph Goebbels stated of Hitler: "Our Führer is the intermediary between his people and the throne of God. Everything the Führer utters is religion in the highest sense."[75] Heinrich Himmler wrote in 1937: "We live in an era of the ultimate conflict with Christianity. It is part of the mission of the SS to give the German people in the next half century the non-Christian ideological foundations on which to lead and shape their lives."[76] The Nazi regime had various plans to diminish and potentially replace religion in Germany with Nazi ideology, such as the Kirchenkampf and Christianity. Various movements within Nazism also existed which sought to combine Nazi ideology with Christianity and elements of Occultism.

dfnj · Apr 14, 2020

danieldemol said:
I think you have tied the concept of the divine right of kings into monotheism without demonstrating that it is an essential concept of monotheism.

This is exactly what Akhenaten did. And he invented monotheism.

danieldemol · Apr 14, 2020

dfnj said:
This is exactly what Akhenaten did. And he invented monotheism.

So he invented two unrelated concepts (monotheism and the divine right of kings). That does not prove there is an essential link between them.

paarsurrey · Apr 14, 2020

dfnj said:
List of people claiming to be a divine messenger of God:

Pharaohs

3150 BCE–30 BCE Egyptian pharaohs were kings of Ancient Egypt, and were considered gods by their culture. Their titles equated them with aspects of the likes of the hawk god Horus, the vulture goddess Nekhbet, and the cobra-goddess Wadjet. The Egyptians believed that when their Pharaoh died, he would continue to lead them in the next life, which is why his burial was grand and completed to perfection—to please him in the next life and ensure his immortality to protect his people. See List of pharaohs.[1][2]
Japanese emperors

660 BCE–1945 CE Claimed, at least by some Shintoists, including government officials, to be divine descendants of the goddess Amaterasu. Hirohito, the Shōwa emperor, repudiated the "false conception" of his divinity in the Humanity Declaration in 1945.[3]
Chinese emperors

221 BCE–1911 CE Deified as "Sons of Heaven" since the Qin Dynasty under Qin Shi Huang.[4]
Roman emperors

42 BCE – 363 CE Following Julius Caesar who in 42 BCE was formally deified as "the Divine Julius", and Caesar Augustus henceforth became Divi filius ("Son of the Divine One"), some (not all) Roman Emperors of the 1st to 4th centuries claimed divinity, including Tiberius 14–37, Caligula 37–41, Claudius 41–54, Hadrian 117–138, Commodus 161–192, Constantine I 306–312, Julian the Apostate 361–363
Further information: Imperial cult (ancient Rome), Augustus (honorific), and Augusta (honorific)
Natchez rulers

700 CE The Natchez were a theocracy ruled by "The Great Sun." This ruler has sometimes been deemed a God-king.[5]
The Sailendras

700 CE The Sailendra dynasty of Java were active promoters of Mahayana Buddhism and covered the plains of Central Java with Buddhist monuments, including the world-famous Borobudur.[6]
Majapahit kings

1293–1597 Javanese rulers of South East Asia's largest ever kingdom, in Indonesia. After death, they were depicted as Hindu gods (see for instance Raden Wijaya).
Dalai Lamas

1391–present Considered re-incarnations of Avalokiteśvara in Tibetan Buddhism. Panchen Lamas are incarnations of Amitābha.[7][8][9]
Inca emperors

1438 The Inca Emperors had a status very similar to that of the Pharaohs of Egypt.
Nepalese kings

1768–2008 In Nepal, the kings of the Shah dynasty were considered incarnations of Vishnu.[10]
Posthumous deification

"List of people claiming to be a divine messenger of God"

The list, I understand, amply evidences that Oneness of G-d is the most natural, ancient principle and religious knowledge in all religions of the world. Right, please?

Regards

Nakosis · Apr 14, 2020

dfnj said:
So what do you think? Are kings and messengers of God claiming to speak for God nothing but shysters pretending to know the mind of God? Or are you believing someone selling you the Brooklyn bridge is legitimate?

I think prophets 100% believe they hear the word of God. Hearing God talk to you is not that uncommon. Having enough conviction to claim to be a messenger of God is not so common, but happens often enough. I suspect most of them are sincere in their belief. It doesn't mean they are actual messengers, it just means they are not faking their belief.

paarsurrey · Apr 14, 2020

Nakosis said:
I think prophets 100% believe they hear the word of God. Hearing God talk to you is not that uncommon. Having enough conviction to claim to be a messenger of God is not so common, but happens often enough. I suspect most of them are sincere in their belief. It doesn't mean they are actual messengers, it just means they are not faking their belief.

The Messengers were truthful, I understand, and how G-d helped them succeed against all odds evidences for the existence of G-d and also the the truth of His Messengers and the truth of religious Message given by Him to them. And there is absolutely no need, I understand, to doubt it. Right, please?

Regards

Trailblazer · Apr 14, 2020

paarsurrey said:
The Messengers were truthful, I understand, and how G-d helped them succeed against all odds evidences for the existence of G-d and also the the truth of His Messengers and the truth of religious Message given by Him to them. And there is absolutely no need, I understand, to doubt it. Right, please?

Right. There is no logical reason to doubt the truth of the Messengers of God, such as Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah, because there is no logical explanation for what they were able to accomplish on their missions, including the scriptures that they revealed, and they would have had no motive for suffering and sacrificing their lives, other than for the Cause of God.

You and I and those others like us can thank God for enabling us to recognize His Messengers. Baha'u'llah told us to thank God every day of our lives for enabling us to recognize His Messengers.

osgart · Apr 14, 2020

I do not think divinity is a hard concept to understand. Righteous authority and perfect living and perfect judgment in all matters of life and virtue.

Attaining divinity is impossible for humans. Not to say that human excellence isn't attainable, obviously it is.

The knowledge and power of God is incomprehensible on a human scale. A requirement for divinity is perfect judgment in perfect knowledge, with perfect wisdom.

I wouldn't think that even God would desire to have to be perfect all the time.

As for the Divine character of God,it is so simple that anyone who truly loves selflessly knows it. Anyone who is rightfully self loving too. No great intellect needed there.

Trailblazer · Apr 14, 2020

Nakosis said:
I think prophets 100% believe they hear the word of God.

I believe if they were true Prophets they 100% heard the word of God......
but if they were false prophets they were either delusional or they were con-men... you pick..
The way you can tell the difference is by their fruits.
That is why Jesus said what he said.......

Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions: FRUIT | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

MNoBody · Apr 15, 2020

I recall reading somewhere about the three T's of empire
Throne, Temple, Treasury.
the three necessities for a King to rule.

even tribal cultures knew that if a chief or someone had the shaman on their side [ in that they were speaking great things about them] then this was a positive 'sign' and was found more acceptable than if they did not have this additional PR to tip the balance favorably

good thread idea by the way.

Nakosis · Apr 15, 2020

paarsurrey said:
The Messengers were truthful, I understand, and how G-d helped them succeed against all odds evidences for the existence of G-d and also the the truth of His Messengers and the truth of religious Message given by Him to them. And there is absolutely no need, I understand, to doubt it. Right, please?

Regards

Atheists succeed as well. Success doesn't require a belief in God. If success is evidence of God then it is equally evidence of no God.

IndigoChild5559 · Apr 15, 2020

dfnj said:
I recently watched an episode from Morgan Freeman's TV series on God. Here is the segment:

Akhenaten got rid of all the major Egyptian gods and invented Aten another name for Ra the sun god. Aten was to be worshiped as the only one true god. And Akhenaten claimed he was the only spokesman for Aten on Earth. Akhenaten's will was Aten's will.

"Others have likened some aspects of Akhenaten's relationship with the Aten to the relationship, in Christian tradition, between Jesus Christ and God, particularly interpretations that emphasize a more monotheistic interpretation of Atenism than a henotheistic one."

Akhenaten became a single high king priest and the high priests of the other gods lost all their power as all the power was accumulated under a single monarchy. This made the once powerful priests very angry! The priests who lost their power wanted to crucify Akhenaten!

"The idea that Akhenaten was the pioneer of a monotheistic religion that later became Judaism has been considered by various scholars."

Akhenaten - Wikipedia

But not surprisingly Jewish scholars have poo-poo'd the idea their religion of monotheism was not of their own invention:

"There is little or no evidence to support the notion that Akhenaten was a progenitor of the full-blown monotheism that we find in the Bible. The monotheism of the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament had its own separate development – one that began more than half a millennium after the pharaoh's death."

But the similarities are too obvious. Psalm 104 and "Great Hymn to the Aten" are practically identical. Prior to Akhenaten monotheism simply did not exist anywhere in recorded history. Akhenaten was the first to invent it. And it was hugely successful in consolidating power!

This idea of a single "Lord" God where the king on Earth forms a divine monarchy was very appealing to those who desire absolute power over their subjects. The "messenger" of God holds tremendous power over the people who buy into the message.

King James was a big proponent of the divine rights of kings as outlined in his book The True Law of Free Monarchies.

The True Law of Free Monarchies - Wikipedia

The idea of the divine rights of kings I find is somewhat evil, selfish, and self-serving for the person in the position of power. But you be the judge:

"The divine right of kings, divine right, or God's mandate is a political and religious doctrine of royal and political legitimacy. It stems from a specific metaphysical framework in which the king (or queen) is pre-selected as a heir prior to their birth. By pre-selecting the king's physical manifestation, the governed populace actively (rather than merely passively) hands the metaphysical selection of the king's soul – which will inhabit the body and thereby rule them – over to God. In this way, the "divine right" originates as a metaphysical act of humility or submission towards the Godhead. Consequentially, it asserts that a monarch (e.g. a king) is subject to no earthly authority, deriving the right to rule directly from a divine authority, like the monotheist will of God. The monarch is thus not subject to the will of his people, of the aristocracy, or of any other estate of the realm. It implies that only divine authority can judge an unjust monarch and that any attempt to depose, dethrone or restrict their powers runs contrary to God's will and may constitute a sacrilegious act. It is often expressed in the phrase "by the Grace of God", attached to the titles of a reigning monarch; although this right does not make the monarch the same as a sacred king. The divine right has been a key element for legitimizing many absolute monarchies."

Essentially the king speaks for God because the king and God are of the same mind.

This has a long history in Christianity:

"Outside of Christianity,[clarification needed] kings were often seen as either ruling with the backing of heavenly powers or perhaps even being divine beings themselves. However, the Christian notion of a divine right of kings is traced to a story found in 1 Samuel, where the prophet Samuel anoints Saul and then David as mashiach or king over Israel. The anointing is to such an effect that the monarch became inviolable, so that even when Saul sought to kill David, David would not raise his hand against him because "he was the Lord's anointed"."

All throughout history hundreds of people have claimed to be messengers for God:

List of people who have been considered deities - Wikipedia

Kings are supposedly messengers of God. I have a tough time with this idea of divine monarchy. I think the Bible is written as authoritarian propaganda justifying monarchy as divine government. I live in the New York City area where there's an expression, "He's selling you the Brooklyn bridge.". The idea is shysters will sell you something they do not own. This is how I feel about the divine rights of kings. I feel like whoever is in power is being shyster selling something they do not own.

I feel the mind of God is beyond our comprehension and no one speaks for God.

So what do you think? Are kings and messengers of God claiming to speak for God nothing but shysters pretending to know the mind of God? Or are you believing someone selling you the Brooklyn bridge is legitimate?

I don't see why it has to be the Egyptian monotheism informing the Jews, when it could very well have been the other way around.

The origins of monotheism, the one true God, and men pretending to speak for the one true God

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Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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Loving God and my neighbor as myself.