Why Didn't the Holy Spirit Know?

rrobs · Mar 25, 2020

cataway said:
i do appreciate that Jesus did have to be a man,thats a given how will you explain away theses verses ?
John 3:13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man"

Hopefully you won't mind if I answer to 1 verse at a time. Even then I'll only go over it rather broadly. If you like it, I'll add more to the answer and answer to another verse you quoted. If you don't like it, we'll just leave it at that.

The phrase "coming down from heaven/above/God" was a Hebrew idiom which meant that a person or a thing was commissioned by or had its origin in God. This figure of speech is used of other persons and objects in the Bible to describe their divine authorship, to identify them as having been stored up in God's heavenly plan. James has a good example:

Jas 1:17,

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Something coming from heaven simply means it has it's source in God. Manna came from heaven, but it doesn't mean God had a big 'ol breadbasket up there in heaven with him in the beginning.

I trust you agree that not only was Jesus a man, but he was a man just like the rest of us (the only exception to that is that he was born without sin). If he is truly like us, he was born when he was born and before that he did not exist in physical form. True, he was in God's plan (logos of John 1:1) from the beginning, but he did not exist until he was born in John 1:14. John 1:1 says "the word" (logos, plan) was with God. There is no need to go beyond that simple declaration and substitute "Jesus" for "the word." It is not much different than a blueprint exists before the actual house. Nobody would look at a blueprint and try to walk through the front door. They would wait until the blueprint, the plan, became a tangible house with an actual front door.

How do you understand this verse in Ephesians?

Eph 1:4,

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Since God choose us before He created the universe, are we to believe we existed in the beginning alongside Jesus?

Clear · Mar 25, 2020

rrobs said : "The phrase "coming down from heaven/above/God" was a Hebrew idiom which meant that a person or a thing was commissioned by or had its origin in God. This figure of speech is used of other persons and objects in the Bible to describe their divine authorship, to identify them as having been stored up in God's heavenly plan."

Just a comment. While I agree with rrobs that Hebrew has a lot of idioms, the actual specific meaning of the idiom will depend upon the authors context.

First point is that underlying the metaphor, there is something literal as well.

For example, when something “descends” from on high it can mean that it comes from God as rrob says. For example, revelation from God is described as thought which “was like a letter, and his will descended from on high. 6 And it was sent from a bow like an arrow that has been forcibly shot. 7 And many hands rushed to the letter, in order to catch (it), then take and read it. Odes of Solomon #23 vs 4-7;

While it is a metaphor that revelation is "like a letter...like an arrow", it is literal that it comes from (descends) from "on high".

Second point, and this is important. Idioms are most often the exception in speech. That is, usually we speak in intelligible terms that actually mean what they seem to mean and use of idioms is the exception. Thus, when something “descends”, the thing is actually thought to “descend” from one place to another or change from a higher, greater state of existence, and "descend" to a lower, lessor state of existence.

For example, in early Judeo-Christianity, where Jesus/the Messiah did exist as “the Word” who was “in the beginning with God” and who was the creator of the world, the symbology of “descending from above” was frequently NOT a simple idiom or metaphor in early Judeo-Christian literature, but instead, it often meant what it appeared to mean.

For examples,

When biblical Mark says “he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him…”, he is speaking of something literally descending and it is not an idiom. (Mark 1:10)

The same can be said of biblical Luke 3:33 when the narrative tells us that “the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him…” These examples do not appear to be idiomatic uses of the word “descend” but instead, there was something literally descending.

Similarly, in other Judeo-Christian literature, the use of the word “descend” often means exactly what it says. For example, In the Gospel of the Ebionites (epiphanius, Panarion 30.13.7-8) when “he saw the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove that descended and entered into him…” it is not idiomatic usage of the word "descended".

It is such literal usage in the literature that confirms the early Judeo-Christian belief that Jesus the Messiah was thought to have actually descended from a Heaven (as heaven was imagined to be “above” the earth).

For examples, when Seth was speaking to the angel in Gospel of Nicodemus, he is told that “the only-begotten son of God shall become man and shall descend below the earth. And he shall anoint him [Adam] with that oil. The Gospel of Nicodemus chapter 3

While any “descension” from any “heaven” must be symbolic to a certain extent, it was, in the symbology of a heaven “above” the earth, a literal descension.

The descension of the pre-creation Christ to the earth

In Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah . 10:6-16 the prophet describes God the Father, giving command to the Son, saying “I heard the voice of the Most High, the Father of my Lord, as he said to my Lord Christ, who will be called Jesus, “Go out and descend through all the heavens... And afterwards you shall ascend from the gods of death to your place, and you shall not be transformed in each of the heavens, but in glory you shall ascend and sit at my right hand, and then the princes and the powers of that world will worship you. 16 This command I heard the Great Glory giving to my Lord.”

In the later verses of Martyrdom of Isaiah, the details of Christs descending from a heavenly home in his commission to be the Messiah and savior of the world, it describes his descension : “And those who kept the gate of the (third) heaven demanded the password, and the Lord gave (it) to them...25 And again I saw when he descended into the second heaven, that there again he gave the password, for those who kept the gates demanded (it) and the Lord gave (it)...27 And again I saw when he descended into the first heaven, that there he gave the password to those who kept the gates...29 And again he descended into the firmament where the prince of this world dwells… (10:24-30)

This descension from heaven was believed to be a literal leaving of heaven where he was and he descended to earth to accomplish his task as intercessor and savior.

Thus, when the narrative relates that Jesus says “I say to you, for your sake I have descended. You are the beloved; you are those who will become a cause of life for many. Beseech the Father. Implore God often, and he will give to you... Take reproof from me and save yourselves. I intercede on your behalf with the father, and he will forgive you much.” (Apocryphon of James), he is describing his coming to Earth to accomplish his assignment of intercession for mankind.

Similar language appears in G. Barthol (ch IV) “… Jesus said to him: “Bartholomew, the Father named me Christ, that I might come down on earth and anoint with the oil of life everyone who came to me.”

Similarly, the Apocalypse of James parallels the use of descension as the prior examples from early literature. “In truth I say to you, had it been to those who would listen to me that I was sent, and had it been with them that I was to speak, I would have never descended upon the earth.” The Apocryphon of James

The descension of Jesus into Sheol
The early Christian decensus literature, describes the death of Jesus and the entry of his spirit into sheol (world of spirits, hades, etc.) during the three days between the death of his body and his resurrection. The literature uses the term of “descend” in exactly the same manner since Sheol, hades, the grave, the world of spirits (whatever name one describes it by) is a “descension” (hence the name of this genre of literature).

The gospel of Bartholemew (ch 1) describes this decension thusly. “Bartholomew said to him: “Lord, when you went to be hanged on the cross, I followed you at a distance and saw how you were hanged on the cross and how the angels descended from heaven and worshiped you. And when darkness came, I looked and saw that you had vanished from the cross; only I heard your voice in the underworld, and suddenly a great wailing and gnashing of teeth arose. Tell me, Lord, where you went from the cross.” And Jesus answered: “Blessed are you Bartholomew, my beloved, because you saw this mystery. And now I will tell you everything you ask me. “When I vanished from the cross, I went to the underworld to bring up Adam and all the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The archangel – Michael – had asked me to do this. When I descended with my angels to the underworld ,in order to dash in pieces the iron bars and shatter the portals of the underworld…”.

In this narrative, there is a mixture of symbolic metaphor and literal truth that describes the visit of the Messiah to the world of spirits and his bringing them out to resurrection at the time of his own resurrection.

One biblical texts version of this story simply says “the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus' resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people. (Matt 27:52-53)

In the early literature, this “descension” is described in narratives as an actual descension. For example, “the only-begotten son of God shall become man and shall descend below the earth.” (Gospel of Nicodemus)

Similarly Martyrdom of Isaiah relates this same decension thusly : “they handed him to the ruler, and crucified him, and he descended to the angel who (is) in Sheol. (Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah . 11:19-21)

“Ch 40 v 12 From there I was brought down and I came to the place of condemnation, and I saw hell open, and I saw there a certain plain like a prison, an unbounded judgment, and I descended, and I knew all their accusations. Ch 41 vs 1 “And I sighed and I wept over the perdition of the impious.” 2nd Enoch 41:1

New Testament Ephesians refers to these same traditions when it relates that the same Jesus that ascended to heaven after first descending to earth and descending to sheol (Hades/world of spirits) first. “Wherefore he sayeth When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things. Ephesians 4:8-10;

I just finished my work day and need to stop here. The point is that to "descend" to the earth, or below the earth (and similar examples could be given of ascension literature as well), was much more often a reference to literal descending rather than simply a Hebrew idiom. While these religious beliefs were couched in symbolism, there was a reality which underlie the symbolism.

The reality was that the Messiah left his home above, descended to a lower level of existence in mortality, became the savior of mankind, an intercessor for them with God, the Father. He accomplished the atonement and descended further to the world of spirits and brought spirits of mankind out of that world to the resurrection (which he inaugurated). There are many, many things for which this superlative person of the Messiah should be honored, besides simply being a "savior".

Again, I apologize for disjointed thoughts but I had to type between patients and don’t have time to return to my writing and correct errors. I will try to do so later.

Good journey to everyone.

Clear
τωφιακειω

PearlSeeker · Mar 27, 2020

Clear said:
PearlSeeker said : “ There is no revelation about mediator/creator.”(post 216)
That is correct. The Christian doctrine that Jesus was the mediator and creator did NOT come from the text where Paul has his revelation.

Where did it came from?

Muffled · Mar 30, 2020

URAVIP2ME said:
I find 'biblical hell' is just the common stone-cold temporary grave for the sleeping dead.
This is why Jesus likened 'sleep to death' and Not to pain - John 11:11-14.
No soul immortality being spoken of at Matthew 10:28
Jesus was teaching the soul can be destroyed in Gehenna.
King James translated into English the word Gehenna as hell or hell fire.
Gehenna was a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed forever.
Thus, as Psalms 92:7 says the wicked will be ' destroyed forever '.

At 1 Corinthians Paul is addressing those ' brothers ' who are the saints of holy ones of Daniel 7:18.
They have that first or earlier resurrection to heaven - Revelation 20:6; Revelation 2:10; Revelation 5:9-10.
So, the 20th chapter of Revelation is about the majority of mankind who can have a later happy-and-healthy physical resurrection on Earth.

I believe translations have used Hell for the grave but that does not mean that Hell is completely missing from the Bible.

Muffled · Mar 30, 2020

rrobs said:
I'm not sure, but it sounds like you are making the Spirit a person when the scriptures actually uses it as an attribute of God. Jesus said, "God is spirit..." Of course God is also holy and therefore his true nature is holy spirit. Again, holy spirit is what God is, not a separate person.

Jesus once told the religious leaders that their traditions make God's word (the scriptures) of no effect. The trinity doctrine certainly enjoys a long history as a church tradition. It began before Paul even died. He warned us against preaching another Jesus who he did not preach. Well, Paul never said anything about the trinity. He, nor any other writer, never used one single word the Council of Nicea had to resort to using in order to "explain" the trinity doctrine.

The scriptures will never be understood as the are meant to be understood so long as we mix up what God is, i.e., holy spirit, with some extra-biblical person called the Holy Spirit. They will truly, as Jesus said, be of no effect, at least not as much as they could be if we stuck to truth (the scriptures and nothing but the scriptures) instead of tradition.

I believe that is false. The Bible is quite clear that the Spirit is God. I believe since God displays personality that He is a person.

I believe that is true. It is common usage but is a misnomer. The actual word is Paraclete and often that gets translated many ways but I prefer God joined to the Church.

I believe the Trinity is what God supports whether the RCC has it correct or not.

I believe he does support the concept of the Trinity. Evidently you either haven't read much or misinterpret a lot.

Muffled · Mar 30, 2020

cataway said:
have you contemplated that angles are also holy spirits . and that they being servants of God are sent to do what ever it is the most high God wants done ??

I believe there is scant evidence of what angels are. There is evidence that they appear as men at times.

rrobs · Mar 30, 2020

Muffled said:
I believe that is false. The Bible is quite clear that the Spirit is God. I believe since God displays personality that He is a person.

I believe that is true. It is common usage but is a misnomer. The actual word is Paraclete and often that gets translated many ways but I prefer God joined to the Church.

I believe the Trinity is what God supports whether the RCC has it correct or not.

I believe he does support the concept of the Trinity. Evidently you either haven't read much or misinterpret a lot.

While John 20:24 does say God is spirit, it does not say He is the spirit. The scriptures use the word "spirit" in many different ways. It doesn't always refer to God. Context will usually explain exactly what spirit a verse is speaking of.

But, if what you say is true, how do you explain 1 Cor 8:6?

1Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

That doesn't seem to leave any room for God the Son or God the Holy Spirit (both un scriptural words) in the triumvirate.

How would you explain John?

John 20:17,

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

Who is the God of God and who is God's Father?

God bless.

Muffled · Apr 13, 2020

rrobs said:
While John 20:24 does say God is spirit, it does not say He is the spirit. The scriptures use the word "spirit" in many different ways. It doesn't always refer to God. Context will usually explain exactly what spirit a verse is speaking of.

But, if what you say is true, how do you explain 1 Cor 8:6?

1Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

That doesn't seem to leave any room for God the Son or God the Holy Spirit (both un scriptural words) in the triumvirate.

How would you explain John?

John 20:17,

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

Who is the God of God and who is God's Father?

God bless.

I believe I was speaking of the Holy Spirit which is often used to refer to the Paraclete.

I believe you lack a logical path for this conclusion. One God is the Trinity.

I believe God is God's God. How could it be otherwise? What other god would be God's God?

I believe that would be God. John 10:30 I and the Father are one.”

rrobs · Apr 13, 2020

Muffled said:
I believe I was speaking of the Holy Spirit which is often used to refer to the Paraclete.

Yes, the words "holy" and "spirit" sometimes refers to God, in which case it is Capitalized. Other times it refers to the gift God first gave to the apostles on the day of Pentecost, and which all Christians receive at the new birth. In those case, it should not be capitalized. There is the giver, Holy Spirit (God) and there is the gift, holy spirit. Context usually makes it clear.

I believe you lack a logical path for this conclusion. One God is the Trinity.

I wouldn't use the term logical to describe the trinity. It is quite illogical.

I believe God is God's God. How could it be otherwise? What other god would be God's God?

Well, I'm afraid there is circular reasoning in your premise. If God is God's God and that God has a God then the God who is God's God also has a God. Of course the God of God of God would also have a God........no end in sight.

On the other hand, it makes perfect sense that Jesus is not God (he is actually called the son of God) and therefore it is quite simple for him to have a God as well as a Father. His statement, "your God and my God" is quite simple. We both have the same God.

I believe that would be God. John 10:30 I and the Father are one.”

John 17:21-22,

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Jesus want us to be one with he and his Father. Does that make us him and/or his Father?

1Cor 3:6-8,

6 I (Paul) have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

Is Paul and Apollos actually one and the same person?

When we let the scriptures define itself, we see that being one with someone doesn't mean the two or more persons are literally one and the same person. It appears to mean the two or more people are united in purpose and goals. If, on the other hand, we let tradition be the guide, then we must explain why in some cases being one means two or more are literally one, but in other cases being one means something else.

Have you never heard or read that a group of people or animals acted as one? It's a common idiom that has been used for millennia to describe a group acting as one to accomplish a goal or purpose. It's not uncommon, and we all know what it means. Of course, because of long standing biases, when it comes to God and Jesus, we throw out the usual meaning and take it in a completely different way, a way that defies all logic and common sense.

Duncan · Apr 20, 2020

rrobs said:
Speaking about his second coming, Jesus said,

"But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." Matt 24:36.

I understand Trinitarians say that it was the "man part" of Jesus that didn't know the day and hour. Scripturally, it's not the best argument given that there are no verses that mention a "man part" of Jesus.

But we'll assume Jesus had a God part as well as a man part. But why doesn't the third person of the trinity know the day and hour? Is he also part God and part man?

very good question, and the answer to that question is that there no trinity, Jesus was just a man knowing only what God allowed him to know. You see even if we use the Christian mathematical equation of "trinity", it does not add up. The Christian's technique of addition is that {Father}& {Son} & {Holy Spirit} are all "equal" and therefore 1.0. Yet the Bible gives us a different equation for the numerical value of Jesus.

Jesus admits "..my Father is greater than I", {John 14:28}

This subtracts a Decimal {-0.1}

"I can of mine own self do nothing...," {John 5:30}

This subtracts another decimal {-0.1}

At this point, Jesus in no longer a complete 1.0 but now a {0.8}

Now the list of figures are {Father} =1.0 {Jesus} = 0.8 and {Holy Spirit} = 1.0, Bringing the Total to {2.8}

Reading and depending on the Bible, there is a "quantity" that is overlooked by Christians which has clear value in this equation. Jesus was baptized because He had to fulfill the legal requirements for entering into the priesthood like Melchizedek (Psalm 110:4; Heb. 5:8-10;6:20) Melchizedek has no beginning and no end, no Mother and no Father {Hebrew 7:3}, now that is what I call an immaculate conception!

First, Jesus sought to be a High Priest like Melchizedek. Second, Melchizedek had a more miraculous birth, without a "mother" or "father", with no beginning or end, although Melchizedek clearly worshiped ONE God so we will give Melchizedek a value of {0.9}

Now the total according to the Bible and Christian belief is {Father} =1.0 {Jesus} = 0.8 {Holy Spirit} = 1.0 and {Melchizedek} = 0.9

Bringing the Total to {3.7}

There are more variables which we can add for example Genesis 32:24-30 Jacob wrestles with God. God can not win against Jacob.

This information would make Jacob a {1.1} the Father would remains at {1.0} since through out the Bible, Isaiah 43:10-11,Deuteronomy 4:39, Isaiah 45:18, Isaiah44:6, Isaiah45:6, Isaiah 45:22, Exodus 20:3, Exodus 34:14, the Bible "Clearly" States that God is {1.0}

"For there is One God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus", (I Timothy 2:5).

Of course I am not that good in math, there is a form of advanced mathematics in Christianity that I just can't comprehend, that is the "changing variables" Which means, at one point in the Bible, God is given a quantity and then later on that quantity is either subtracted from or added to or in other words, "fluctuating values".

For example: God is given the value and quantity of "Never sleeping", (Psalm 121:4): "Behold, he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep." And Yet according to trinity then Jesus is supposed to have this "Equal" power but "Jesus sleeps"

How can Jesus be 100% Equal if he worshipped God as any other mortal (Luke 5:16): "And he withdrew himself into the wilderness, and prayed."

Jesus was tempted by Satan for forty days (Luke 4:1-13) but in James 1:13 is said: "...for God cannot be tempted with evil.."

I am confused, If the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are "Equal", why doesn't the Bible "consistently" say they are equal instead of giving them and "others" changing values.

But we can find answer to those confusing questions in the Quran, where God says: "O people of the book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was [no more or less than] a messenger of Allah, and His word, which he bestowed upon Mary, and a spirit preceding from Him: so believe in Allah and his messengers.

Say not "Three": desist!, it is better for you, for Allah is one God, Glory be to Him, Far exalted is He above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and the earth. And enough is Allah as a disposer of affairs." Qur'an (4):171.

Now it all makes sense, the Qur'an clarified what the Bible is saying. I would be going against the Bible itself if I had "unsupported inconsistent faith in trinity" because the Bible says: "For God is not the Author of confusion, but of peace.." (I Corinthians 14:33).

Duncan · Apr 20, 2020

rrobs said:
Yes, the words "holy" and "spirit" sometimes refers to God, in which case it is Capitalized. Other times it refers to the gift God first gave to the apostles on the day of Pentecost, and which all Christians receive at the new birth. In those case, it should not be capitalized. There is the giver, Holy Spirit (God) and there is the gift, holy spirit. Context usually makes it clear.

are you referring to the Greek word paravklhtoß, ho parakletos ?

rrobs · Apr 20, 2020

duncan said:
very good question, and the answer to that question is that there no trinity, Jesus was just a man knowing only what God allowed him to know. You see even if we use the Christian mathematical equation of "trinity", it does not add up. The Christian's technique of addition is that {Father}& {Son} & {Holy Spirit} are all "equal" and therefore 1.0. Yet the Bible gives us a different equation for the numerical value of Jesus.

Jesus admits "..my Father is greater than I", {John 14:28}

This subtracts a Decimal {-0.1}

"I can of mine own self do nothing...," {John 5:30}

This subtracts another decimal {-0.1}

At this point, Jesus in no longer a complete 1.0 but now a {0.8}

Now the list of figures are {Father} =1.0 {Jesus} = 0.8 and {Holy Spirit} = 1.0, Bringing the Total to {2.8}

Reading and depending on the Bible, there is a "quantity" that is overlooked by Christians which has clear value in this equation. Jesus was baptized because He had to fulfill the legal requirements for entering into the priesthood like Melchizedek (Psalm 110:4; Heb. 5:8-10;6:20) Melchizedek has no beginning and no end, no Mother and no Father {Hebrew 7:3}, now that is what I call an immaculate conception!

First, Jesus sought to be a High Priest like Melchizedek. Second, Melchizedek had a more miraculous birth, without a "mother" or "father", with no beginning or end, although Melchizedek clearly worshiped ONE God so we will give Melchizedek a value of {0.9}

Now the total according to the Bible and Christian belief is {Father} =1.0 {Jesus} = 0.8 {Holy Spirit} = 1.0 and {Melchizedek} = 0.9

Bringing the Total to {3.7}

There are more variables which we can add for example Genesis 32:24-30 Jacob wrestles with God. God can not win against Jacob.

This information would make Jacob a {1.1} the Father would remains at {1.0} since through out the Bible, Isaiah 43:10-11,Deuteronomy 4:39, Isaiah 45:18, Isaiah44:6, Isaiah45:6, Isaiah 45:22, Exodus 20:3, Exodus 34:14, the Bible "Clearly" States that God is {1.0}

"For there is One God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus", (I Timothy 2:5).

Of course I am not that good in math, there is a form of advanced mathematics in Christianity that I just can't comprehend, that is the "changing variables" Which means, at one point in the Bible, God is given a quantity and then later on that quantity is either subtracted from or added to or in other words, "fluctuating values".

For example: God is given the value and quantity of "Never sleeping", (Psalm 121:4): "Behold, he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep." And Yet according to trinity then Jesus is supposed to have this "Equal" power but "Jesus sleeps"

How can Jesus be 100% Equal if he worshipped God as any other mortal (Luke 5:16): "And he withdrew himself into the wilderness, and prayed."

Jesus was tempted by Satan for forty days (Luke 4:1-13) but in James 1:13 is said: "...for God cannot be tempted with evil.."

I am confused, If the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are "Equal", why doesn't the Bible "consistently" say they are equal instead of giving them and "others" changing values.

But we can find answer to those confusing questions in the Quran, where God says: "O people of the book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was [no more or less than] a messenger of Allah, and His word, which he bestowed upon Mary, and a spirit preceding from Him: so believe in Allah and his messengers.

Say not "Three": desist!, it is better for you, for Allah is one God, Glory be to Him, Far exalted is He above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and the earth. And enough is Allah as a disposer of affairs." Qur'an (4):171.

Now it all makes sense, the Qur'an clarified what the Bible is saying. I would be going against the Bible itself if I had "unsupported inconsistent faith in trinity" because the Bible says: "For God is not the Author of confusion, but of peace.." (I Corinthians 14:33).

You are absolutely correct, Jesus is not God. He is the son of God. In what world a son can be his own father, I know not.

It is a sad commentary on Christendom when Muslims are more versed in the scriptures. I just read somewhere that 98.6% of Christians believe Jesus is God. And that despite all the verses you mentioned plus many others. I like this one:

1Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

Even if there was a "God the Son" in the scripture, which of course there is not, he would still not be God.

I also like the several verses where Jesus mentions his God and Father. God has a God and a Father? Really? That's insanity!

It is not really necessary to use the Koran to clarify things. It is only necessary to read what is written in the scriptures without adding extraneous ideas cooked up by Plato loving so called church fathers at councils convened by Pagan Roman emperors.

I find it ironic that most verses people use to prove Jesus is God come from the Gospel of John. John was quite clear on why he (inspired by God) included the reason for that Gospel.

John 20:30-31,

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Seems as clear as clear ever gets. He didn't right it so we might believe Jesus is God. That's for sure!

Thanks for the reply.

rrobs · Apr 20, 2020

duncan said:
are you referring to the Greek word paravklhtoß, ho parakletos ?

Yes. That is another name for the gift of holy spirit God first gave on the day of Pentecost and which is given to every born again Christians. It's what makes a Christian a Christian.

Jesus said we would do the works he did and even greater works (John 14:12). That is possible because of the gift of holy spirit, the parakletos.

Duncan · Apr 20, 2020

rrobs said:
Yes. That is another name for the gift of holy spirit God first gave on the day of Pentecost and which is given to every born again Christians. It's what makes a Christian a Christian.

Jesus said we would do the works he did and even greater works (John 14:12). That is possible because of the gift of holy spirit, the parakletos.

John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever."
In this verse, Jesus promises that another "Comforter" will appear, and thus, we must discuss some issues concerning this "Comforter."

The Greek word paravklhtoß, ho parakletos, has been translated as ‘Comforter.’ Parakletos more precisely means ‘one who pleads another’s cause, an intercessor.’The ho parakletos is a person in the Greek language, not an incorporeal entity. In the Greek language, every noun possesses gender; that is, it is masculine, feminine or neutral. In the Gospel of John, Chapters 14, 15 and 16 the ho parakletos is actually a person. All pronouns in Greek must agree in gender with the word to which they refer and the pronoun "he" is used when referring to the parakletos. The NT uses the word pneuma, which means "breath" or "spirit," the Greek equivalent of ruah, the Hebrew word for "spirit" used in the OT. Pneuma is a grammatically neutral word and is always represented by the pronoun "it."

All present day Bibles are compiled from "ancient manuscripts," the oldest dating back to the fourth century C.E. No two ancient manuscripts are identical.
All Bibles today are produced by combining manuscripts with no single definitive reference. The Bible translators attempt to "choose" the correct version. In other words, since they do not know which "ancient manuscript" is the correct one, they decide for us which "version" for a given verse to accept. Take John 14:26 as an example. John 14:26 is the only verse of the Bible which associates the Parakletos with the Holy Spirit. But the "ancient manuscripts" are not in agreement that the "Parakletos" is the ‘Holy Spirit.’ For instance, the famous Codex Syriacus, written around the fifth century C.E., and discovered in 1812 on Mount Sinai, the text of 14:26 reads; "Paraclete, the Spirit"; and not "Paraclete, the Holy Spirit."
Why is it important? It is significant because in biblical language a "spirit," simply means "a prophet."

It is instructive to know that several biblical scholars considered parakletos to be an ‘independent salvific (having the power to save) figure,’ not the Holy Ghost

The question, then, is: was Jesus’ parakletos, Comforter, a ‘Holy Ghost’ or a person - a prophet - to come after him?

Duncan · Apr 20, 2020

rrobs said:
You are absolutely correct, Jesus is not God. He is the son of God. In what world a son can be his own father, I know not.

It is a sad commentary on Christendom when Muslims are more versed in the scriptures. I just read somewhere that 98.6% of Christians believe Jesus is God. And that despite all the verses you mentioned plus many others. I like this one:

1Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

Even if there was a "God the Son" in the scripture, which of course there is not, he would still not be God.

I also like the several verses where Jesus mentions his God and Father. God has a God and a Father? Really? That's insanity!

It is not really necessary to use the Koran to clarify things. It is only necessary to read what is written in the scriptures without adding extraneous ideas cooked up by Plato loving so called church fathers at councils convened by Pagan Roman emperors.

I find it ironic that most verses people use to prove Jesus is God come from the Gospel of John. John was quite clear on why he (inspired by God) included the reason for that Gospel.

John 20:30-31,

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Seems as clear as clear ever gets. He didn't right it so we might believe Jesus is God. That's for sure!

Thanks for the reply.

No than you for your reply rrob, you know i have debated with friends where they believe that Jesus is the Son of God as quoting Jesus is the only begotten son." The word "only begotten" exists only in the Gospel according to John, only in the King James Version (1:14, 1:18, 3:16, 3:18). Interestingly enough, this word "only begotten" does not exist in the Revised Standard Version, New Revised Standard, or the World English Bible.
Do you adhere to that theory? because the bible says that God has many sons

"That the sons of God saw the daughters of men" (Genesis 6:2).
"Israel is my son, even my firstborn" (Exodus 4:22).
"Ye are the children of God" (Deuteronomy 14:1).
"The Lord hath said unto me, (David) Thou art my son: this day have I begotten thee" (Psalms 2:7).
"for I (God) am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my first born" (Jeremiah 31:9).
"which (Adam) was the Son of God" (Luke 3:38).
"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God" (Romans 8:14).

It is quite clear from the above verses that many righteous people were called sons of God. Israel and Ephraim were God's firstborn. David and Jesus were called begotten sons of God. So what does that mean? It is a metaphorical, not literal, descriptive term that is commonly used by the Jews to indicate closeness and affection to God. The authors of the New Testament used the same title of the Son of God to indicate closeness to God. The apostles and Paul were Jews using Jewish terms. Jesus also said, "God is not only his father, but also your father" (Matthew 5:45 & 48). This metaphorical term is quite obvious in II Cor. 6:18 "And will be a father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty." Christians agree with that, but emphasize that Jesus was an exception based upon only the Gospel according to John only in the King James Version. God created Adam. But both Adam and Jesus had no fathers. As a matter of fact, creating Jesus was simpler, in a human sense, than creating Adam, because Adam had no father or mother, while Jesus had a mother. God created every living creature. He is the Lord, Creator, Cherisher, and Sustainer of all. Metaphorically speaking therefore God is the father of all.

Take the exemple in the Hebrews 7:3 there is a dramatic story about Melchisedec: "Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, or end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually."

Melchisedec was the king of Salem and a priest of God. He met and blessed Abraham, Genesis 14:17-24. According to the above verse he is eternal, with no beginning or end, with no father or mother. He was in a position to bless Abraham. He was made like the Son of God. What more can you ask for a God? According to the Christian logic in the Bible, Melchisedec should be the Son of God or even god himself. He is more unique than Jesus or Abraham or Adam. None of these prophets are eternal. Why is Melchisedec very much unknown to the Christians? A person with his credential should be more famous than Jesus! Some may argue about the verse "like unto the son of God" that he is like but not actually the Son of God. In this case, who would confirm that the word "like" was not added to the text and who would confirm the authenticity of this whole part of the Hebrews, or who was the real author of this part? As usual this story is completely changed in other versions of the Bible. For example "without mother" is changed to "his mother was unknown"! Jesus called himself son of man and refused to be called Son of God:

"And the devils also came, out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God" (Luke 4:41).

It is clear here that the devils attempted to call Jesus as Son of God, but he refused that title, as the devils knew Jesus was the Christ. Jesus even refused to be called "the Christ of God" and called himself the son of man, (Luke 9:20-22).

Jesus was the expected Messiah and a prophet. Humans escalated and promoted him from a teacher to a prophet to the Son of God and finally to God himself.

rrobs · Apr 21, 2020

duncan said:
John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever."
In this verse, Jesus promises that another "Comforter" will appear, and thus, we must discuss some issues concerning this "Comforter."

The Greek word paravklhtoß, ho parakletos, has been translated as ‘Comforter.’ Parakletos more precisely means ‘one who pleads another’s cause, an intercessor.’The ho parakletos is a person in the Greek language, not an incorporeal entity. In the Greek language, every noun possesses gender; that is, it is masculine, feminine or neutral. In the Gospel of John, Chapters 14, 15 and 16 the ho parakletos is actually a person. All pronouns in Greek must agree in gender with the word to which they refer and the pronoun "he" is used when referring to the parakletos. The NT uses the word pneuma, which means "breath" or "spirit," the Greek equivalent of ruah, the Hebrew word for "spirit" used in the OT. Pneuma is a grammatically neutral word and is always represented by the pronoun "it."

All present day Bibles are compiled from "ancient manuscripts," the oldest dating back to the fourth century C.E. No two ancient manuscripts are identical.
All Bibles today are produced by combining manuscripts with no single definitive reference. The Bible translators attempt to "choose" the correct version. In other words, since they do not know which "ancient manuscript" is the correct one, they decide for us which "version" for a given verse to accept. Take John 14:26 as an example. John 14:26 is the only verse of the Bible which associates the Parakletos with the Holy Spirit. But the "ancient manuscripts" are not in agreement that the "Parakletos" is the ‘Holy Spirit.’ For instance, the famous Codex Syriacus, written around the fifth century C.E., and discovered in 1812 on Mount Sinai, the text of 14:26 reads; "Paraclete, the Spirit"; and not "Paraclete, the Holy Spirit."
Why is it important? It is significant because in biblical language a "spirit," simply means "a prophet."

It is instructive to know that several biblical scholars considered parakletos to be an ‘independent salvific (having the power to save) figure,’ not the Holy Ghost

The question, then, is: was Jesus’ parakletos, Comforter, a ‘Holy Ghost’ or a person - a prophet - to come after him?

Yes on all the textual comments. The fact is, we have no documents that Moses, John, Paul, etc actually penned. All we have are copies which, being copied by people, are subject to errors, some intentional to fit a doctrine, and some non-intentional.

If we start with the premise that the scriptures are actually the words of God, we can assume they must be perfect, purified 7 times as they themselves declare. There can be no contractions. With that as a starting point, we can get pretty darn close to the original intent. We'll have to wait for Jesus' promised return to get the whole thing 100% right.

I'm not sure it is a good practice to base a doctrine on one verse, let alone one translation such as the Codex Syriacus. As far as I know, the gender of a Greek word has nothing to do with it being a person or not. That can only be determined by context. Besides, I'm not really sure why you brought that up. I'm sure you had some good reason, but I just don't see it.

I think that sometimes pneuma agion refers to God (in which case, it should be capitalized) and other times it refers to the gift (not capitalized) He gave on the day of Pentecost (context tells which). Wouldn't you think that soon after Jesus mentioned the parakletos the Apostles received the gift of holy spirit? Seems like there ought to be some connection there.

It is also worth noting that Jesus himself is called a parakletos.

1 John 2:1,

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

It is not unusual in any language for a word to be used in different ways.

To summerize: we have God (sometime called Pneuma Agion), Jesus (called our parakletos in 1 John), and the gift of pneuma agion (referred to as the parakletos in John). All three are different, though related, entities. They are in no wise three in one. I think that fits with the overall context of the scriptures.

rrobs · Apr 21, 2020

duncan said:
Metaphorically speaking therefore God is the father of all.

John 8:44,

Ye (scribes & Pharisees) are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Metaphorically, these guys had the devil as their father, not God. Of course the devil is also referred to as the father of lies, so apparently the word "father" has different connotations. It is not unusual for any word in any language to be used in different ways.

Take the exemple in the Hebrews 7:3 there is a dramatic story about Melchisedec: "Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, or end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually."

The exact meaning of this verse escapes me. What I do know about it is that if we take it at face value it contradicts what God told Adam in Gen 2:17 and validates what the devil told Eve in Gen 3:4. With that in mind, I can't see how Hebrews can literally mean any man lives forever.

It may just mean we don't know who his father and mother was, nor do we know when he was born and when he died. Notice the words "it may just mean." I don't really know, but I do know it must fit somehow with God's clear pronouncement that we all die. I just can't force myself to agree with the devil.

I think that this verse may be referring to the fact that Jesus was not a priest after the usual order of Israel's priest, i.e. Aaron. Jesus lineage did not come through Aaron, so in that sense he was not a "normal" priest, but a special one. But, again, I'm not clear on what this verse really says. It's another one on my list of questions for Jesus when I see him coming in the clouds for me. He'll have the answer for me.

As I said before, I don't think it wise to base a doctrine on just one or two verses, especially when those verse are somewhat obtuse.

Jesus was the expected Messiah and a prophet. Humans escalated and promoted him from a teacher to a prophet to the Son of God and finally to God himself.

While I agree that humans elevated Jesus to be God (that's not in the scriptures), I think the scriptures themselves are rather clear on his status as a prophet (Deut 18:15, et.al.), as well as a son of God (Mark 1:1 - technically "a" son of God [no article in Greek]).

In general, it is important to realize that the scriptures were given to an ancient people in a society that is quite foreign to our modern West. As such, it is imperative that we understand the usage of words and concepts in the same way they did and not try to see them in the light or our modern Western culture. It's not what we consider a father to be, but what they considered a father to be. The same goes with the word "monogenes." Sometimes that can be a difficult task (maybe at times even impossible"), but the scriptures do tell us to be workmen of the word and work is work. It's not always easy.

rrobs · Apr 21, 2020

duncan said:
No than you for your reply rrob, you know i have debated with friends where they believe that Jesus is the Son of God as quoting Jesus is the only begotten son." The word "only begotten" exists only in the Gospel according to John, only in the King James Version (1:14, 1:18, 3:16, 3:18). Interestingly enough, this word "only begotten" does not exist in the Revised Standard Version, New Revised Standard, or the World English Bible.
Do you adhere to that theory? because the bible says that God has many sons

"That the sons of God saw the daughters of men" (Genesis 6:2).
"Israel is my son, even my firstborn" (Exodus 4:22).
"Ye are the children of God" (Deuteronomy 14:1).
"The Lord hath said unto me, (David) Thou art my son: this day have I begotten thee" (Psalms 2:7).
"for I (God) am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my first born" (Jeremiah 31:9).
"which (Adam) was the Son of God" (Luke 3:38).
"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God" (Romans 8:14).

It is quite clear from the above verses that many righteous people were called sons of God. Israel and Ephraim were God's firstborn. David and Jesus were called begotten sons of God. So what does that mean? It is a metaphorical, not literal, descriptive term that is commonly used by the Jews to indicate closeness and affection to God. The authors of the New Testament used the same title of the Son of God to indicate closeness to God. The apostles and Paul were Jews using Jewish terms. Jesus also said, "God is not only his father, but also your father" (Matthew 5:45 & 48). This metaphorical term is quite obvious in II Cor. 6:18 "And will be a father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty." Christians agree with that, but emphasize that Jesus was an exception based upon only the Gospel according to John only in the King James Version. God created Adam. But both Adam and Jesus had no fathers. As a matter of fact, creating Jesus was simpler, in a human sense, than creating Adam, because Adam had no father or mother, while Jesus had a mother. God created every living creature. He is the Lord, Creator, Cherisher, and Sustainer of all. Metaphorically speaking therefore God is the father of all.

Take the exemple in the Hebrews 7:3 there is a dramatic story about Melchisedec: "Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, or end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually."

Melchisedec was the king of Salem and a priest of God. He met and blessed Abraham, Genesis 14:17-24. According to the above verse he is eternal, with no beginning or end, with no father or mother. He was in a position to bless Abraham. He was made like the Son of God. What more can you ask for a God? According to the Christian logic in the Bible, Melchisedec should be the Son of God or even god himself. He is more unique than Jesus or Abraham or Adam. None of these prophets are eternal. Why is Melchisedec very much unknown to the Christians? A person with his credential should be more famous than Jesus! Some may argue about the verse "like unto the son of God" that he is like but not actually the Son of God. In this case, who would confirm that the word "like" was not added to the text and who would confirm the authenticity of this whole part of the Hebrews, or who was the real author of this part? As usual this story is completely changed in other versions of the Bible. For example "without mother" is changed to "his mother was unknown"! Jesus called himself son of man and refused to be called Son of God:

"And the devils also came, out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God" (Luke 4:41).

It is clear here that the devils attempted to call Jesus as Son of God, but he refused that title, as the devils knew Jesus was the Christ. Jesus even refused to be called "the Christ of God" and called himself the son of man, (Luke 9:20-22).

Jesus was the expected Messiah and a prophet. Humans escalated and promoted him from a teacher to a prophet to the Son of God and finally to God himself.

Good points, but how does this fit in with what you've said:

Rom 1:4,

And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

There are no other prophets that have been raised from the dead and continue to live unto this day. If true, wouldn't that give Jesus some credibility that none others possess?

Also Luke does not say Jesus refused to be called the Christ. It says he told his disciples not to repeat it to anyone.

From his study of the OT, Jesus was perfectly aware of who he was and what he must do. Indeed, it could be said that the main reason for the OT was so that Jesus would know who he was and what he must do. Remember, as a man, Jesus knew nothing when he made his grand appearance upon this planet, i.e. when he was born. Like all men, Jesus had to learn from a source outside of himself. In this case it was the scriptures. I like to read the OT from Jesus' perspective. I wonder how he must have felt the day he realized Isaiah:

Isa 52:14,

As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:

Getting beat up more than any other man was just the beginning. He also learned that the devil would bruise him, that he would have to be hung on a tree, that he'd be mocked, etc. etc. Of course, in course of his study he'd come to realize that God would raise him from the dead. That is what he kept in mind during his torture/death (Heb 12:2).

Duncan · Apr 22, 2020

rrobs said:
Yes on all the textual comments. The fact is, we have no documents that Moses, John, Paul, etc actually penned. All we have are copies which, being copied by people, are subject to errors, some intentional to fit a doctrine, and some non-intentional.

If we start with the premise that the scriptures are actually the words of God, we can assume they must be perfect, purified 7 times as they themselves declare. There can be no contractions. With that as a starting point, we can get pretty darn close to the original intent. We'll have to wait for Jesus' promised return to get the whole thing 100% right.

I'm not sure it is a good practice to base a doctrine on one verse, let alone one translation such as the Codex Syriacus. As far as I know, the gender of a Greek word has nothing to do with it being a person or not. That can only be determined by context. Besides, I'm not really sure why you brought that up. I'm sure you had some good reason, but I just don't see it.

I think that sometimes pneuma agion refers to God (in which case, it should be capitalized) and other times it refers to the gift (not capitalized) He gave on the day of Pentecost (context tells which). Wouldn't you think that soon after Jesus mentioned the parakletos the Apostles received the gift of holy spirit? Seems like there ought to be some connection there.

It is also worth noting that Jesus himself is called a parakletos.

1 John 2:1,

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

It is not unusual in any language for a word to be used in different ways.

To summerize: we have God (sometime called Pneuma Agion), Jesus (called our parakletos in 1 John), and the gift of pneuma agion (referred to as the parakletos in John). All three are different, though related, entities. They are in no wise three in one. I think that fits with the overall context of the scriptures.

apologies for the late reply you see rrobs when we continue reading beyond chapter 14:16 and chapter 16:7, we find that Jesus predicts the specific details of the arrival and identity of the parakletos. Therefore, according to the context of John 14 & 16 we discover the following facts.

Jesus said the parakletos is a human being:

John 16:13 "He will speak."

John 16:7 "…for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you."

It is impossible that the Comforter be the "Holy Ghost" because the Holy Ghost was present long before Jesus and during his ministry.

John 16:13 Jesus referred to the paraclete as ‘he’ and not ‘it’ seven times, no other verse in the Bible contains seven masculine pronouns. Therefore, paraclete is a person, not a ghost.

Jesus is called a parakletos:

"And if any man sin, we have an advocate (parakletos) with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." (1 John 2:1)

Here we see that parakletos is a physical and human intercessor.

The Divinity of Jesus a later innovation

Jesus was not accepted as divine until the Council of Nicea, 325 CE, but everyone, except Jews, agree he was a prophet of God, as indicated by the Bible:

Matthew 21:11 "...This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee."

Luke 24:19 "...Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people."

Jesus prayed to God for another parakletos:

John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another parakletos."

Jesus describes the function of the other Parakletos:

John 16:13 "He will guide you into all the truth."

I know it maybe irrelevant for you that I quote the Quran but the imformation in there are very important, you see God says in the Quran of Muhammad: "O mankind! The Messenger has now come unto you with the truth from your Lord: believe, then, for your own good!..." (Quran 4:170)

and then you can read in John 16:14 "He will glorify Me."

The Quran brought by Muhammad glorifies Jesus: "…who shall become known as the Christ Jesus, son of Mary, of great honor in this world and in the life to come, and [shall be] of those who are drawn near unto God." (Quran 3:45)

Muhammad also glorified Jesus: "Whoever testifies that none deserves worship except God, who has no partner, and that Muhammad is His servant and Messenger, and that Jesus is the servant of God, His Messenger, and His Word which He bestowed in Mary, and a spirit created from Him, and that Paradise is true, and that Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise, according to his deeds." (Saheeh Al-Bukhari, Saheeh Muslim)

John 16:8 "he will convince the world of its sin, and of God’s righteousness, and of the coming judgment."

The Quran announces: "Indeed, they have disbelieved who say, ‘God is the Christ, son of Mary’ - seeing that the Christ [himself] said, ‘O Children of Israel! Worship God [alone], who is my Lord as well as your Lord.’ ‘Indeed, whoever ascribes divinity to any being beside God, unto him will God deny paradise, and his goal shall be the fire: and there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers!’" (Quran 5:72)

John 16:13 "he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak."

The Quran says of Muhammad: "Neither does he speak out of his own desire: that [which he conveys to you] is but [a divine] inspiration with which he is being inspired." (Quran 53:3-4)

John 14:26 "and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

The words of the Quran: "…while the Messiah had said, ‘O Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord.’" (Quran 5:72)

…reminds people of the first and greatest command of Jesus they have forgotten:

"The first of all the commandments is, ‘Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord.’" (Mark 12:29)

John 16:13 "and He will disclose to you what is to come."

The Quran states: "That is from the news of the unseen which We reveal, [O Muhammad], to you…" (Quran 12:102)

Hudhaifa, a disciple of Prophet Muhammad, tells us: "The Prophet once delivered a speech in front of us wherein he left nothing but mentioned everything that would happen till the Hour (of Judgment)." (Saheeh Al-Bukhari)

John 14:16 "that he may abide with you for ever."

…meaning his original teachings will remain forever. Muhammad was God’s last prophet to humanity. His teachings are perfectly preserved. He lives in the hearts and minds of his adoring followers who worship God in his exact imitation. No man, including Jesus or Muhammad, has an eternal life on earth. Parakletos is not an exception either. This cannot be an allusion to the Holy Ghost, for present day creed of the Holy Ghost did not exist until the Council of Chalcedon, in 451 CE, four and half centuries after Jesus.

John 14:17 "he will be the spirit of truth"

…meaning he will be true prophet, see 1 John 4: 1-3.

John 14:17 "the world neither sees him..."

Many people in the world today do not know Muhammad.

John 14:17 "...nor knows him"

Fewer people recognize the real Muhammad, God’s Prophet of Mercy.

John 14:26 "the Advocate (parakletos)" Muhammad will be the advocate of humanity at large and of sinful believers on Judgment Day:

People will look for those who can intercede on their behalf to God to reduce the distress and suffering on Day of Judgment. Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus will excuse themselves.

Then they will come to our Prophet and he will say, "I am the one who is able." So he will intercede for the people in the Great Plain of Gathering, so judgment may be passed. This is the ‘Station of Praise’ God promises Him in the Quran:

"…It may be that your Lord will raise you to Station of Praise (the honor of intercession on the Day of Resurrection)" (Quran 17:79)

Prophet Muhammad said:

"My intercession will be for those of my nation who committed major sins." (Al-Tirmidhi)

"I shall be the first intercessor in Paradise." (Saheeh Muslim)

Some Muslim scholars suggest what Jesus actually said in Aramaic represents more closely the Greek word periklytos which means the ‘admired one.’ In Arabic the word ‘Muhammad’ means the ‘praiseworthy, admired one.’ In other words, periklytos is "Muhammad" in Greek. And there are two strong reasons in its support. First, due to several documented cases of similar word substitution in the Bible, it is quite possible that both words were contained in the original text but were dropped by a copyist because of the ancient custom of writing words closely packed, with no spaces in between. In such a case the original reading would have been, "and He will give you another comforter (parakletos), the admirable one (periklytos)." Second, we have the reliable testimony of at least four Muslim authorities from different eras who ascribed ‘admired, praised one’ as a possible meaning of the Greek or Syriac word to Christians scholars

The following are some who attest that the Paraclete is indeed an allusion to Muhammad, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him:

The First Witness: Anselm Turmeda (1352/55-1425 CE), a priest and Christian scholar, was a witness to the prophecy. After accepting Islam he wrote a book, "Tuhfat al-arib fi al-radd ‘ala Ahl al-Salib."

The Second Witness: Abdul-Ahad Dawud, the former Rev. David Abdu Benjamin Keldani, BD, a Roman Catholic priest of the Uniate-Chaldean sect. After accepting Islam, he wrote the book, ‘Muhammad in the Bible.’ He writes in this book: "There is not the slightest doubt that by "Periqlyte," Prophet Muhammad, i.e. Ahmad, is intended."

The Third Witness: A synopsis of the life of Muhammad Asad has already been given above. Commenting on the verse:

"…an apostle who shall come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad" (Quran 61:6)

…where Jesus predicts the coming of Muhammad, Asad explains that the word Parakletos:

"…is almost certainly a corruption of Periklytos (‘the Much-Praised’), an exact Greek translation of the Aramaic term or name Mawhamana. (It is to be borne in mind that Aramaic was the language used in Palestine at the time of, and for some centuries after, Jesus and was thus undoubtedly the language in which the original - now lost - texts of the Gospels were composed.) In view of the phonetic closeness of Periklytos and Parakletos it is easy to understand how the translator - or, more probably, a later scribe - confused these two expressions. It is significant that both the Aramaic Mawhamana and the Greek Periklytos have the same meaning as the two names of the Last Prophet, Muhammad and Ahmad, both of which are derived from the Hebrew verb hamida (‘he praised’) and the Hebrew noun hamd (‘praise’)."

Duncan · Apr 22, 2020

rrobs said:
Good points, but how does this fit in with what you've said:

Rom 1:4,

And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

There are no other prophets that have been raised from the dead and continue to live unto this day. If true, wouldn't that give Jesus some credibility that none others possess?

Also Luke does not say Jesus refused to be called the Christ. It says he told his disciples not to repeat it to anyone.

From his study of the OT, Jesus was perfectly aware of who he was and what he must do. Indeed, it could be said that the main reason for the OT was so that Jesus would know who he was and what he must do. Remember, as a man, Jesus knew nothing when he made his grand appearance upon this planet, i.e. when he was born. Like all men, Jesus had to learn from a source outside of himself. In this case it was the scriptures. I like to read the OT from Jesus' perspective. I wonder how he must have felt the day he realized Isaiah:

Isa 52:14,

As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:

Getting beat up more than any other man was just the beginning. He also learned that the devil would bruise him, that he would have to be hung on a tree, that he'd be mocked, etc. etc. Of course, in course of his study he'd come to realize that God would raise him from the dead. That is what he kept in mind during his torture/death (Heb 12:2).

You see rrobs the more I read the Bible the more I see the human tampering with Bible that has reached Jesus himself. But just to understand, you believe That Jesus is the son God who died for the sins of humanity on the cross, and when I say son of God I mean by that literary the son of God, Or you just believe in Jesus as a prophet of God born miraculously without a father, of a virgin mother Marry.?

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