The trinity debate - Is it monotheism?

cataway said:

ahh so because you did not see it happen ,then it did not really happen ?

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There’s no evidence that the stories are anything other than mythic. But they do have all the literary hallmarks of myth.

cataway said:

as for covid-19 we are not surprised that such a thing can happen

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I don’t care if your not surprised; I care that your myth can’t really do in reality what it claims.

Soapy said:

Trinity requires a CREED to Press-Gang it’s members

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Actually, it doesn’t “require a creed.” The creed came before the doctrine.

Soapy said:

Trinity Creed threatens that if you do not believe the lie then your life is forfeit

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No it doesn’t. This is an outright lie. But you call me “satanic.” Nice bit of projection there, dontcha think, Mr. Psychology?

Soapy said:

What an amazing jumble of misrepresented credal ideology... an illogical mess held together only by tissues of lies sat upon shifting sands of nonsense!

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What an amazing jumble of misrepresented credal ideology you’ve presented here — an illogical mess held together only by tissues of lies set upon shifting sands of nonsense. You’ve even somehow managed to misapprehend the concept of worship. Your lengthy diatribe is certainly, among theological constructs, “...full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.”

sojourner said:

There’s no evidence that the stories are anything other than mythic. But they do have all the literary hallmarks of myth.


I don’t care if your not surprised; I care that your myth can’t really do in reality what it claims.

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this myth you speak of. is any different than the myth that you are spreading ? saying the man did not say the things we know he said??

firedragon said:

When you dnt know, say you dnt knw.
Or, like you do, make things up.

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Firedragon, why do you sound like a defeated foot soldier?

I’ve noticed for quite some time now that you have been just postering rather than offering anything of substance to support your negative squibbling!

It would help if you actually stated exactly what you are objecting to in your posts rather than just saying, ‘You’re wrong!’

I can understand that you are frustrated with your inability to oppose the truth - but you can’t even do so with anything approaching deviant... perhaps you realise that doing so will get you a reputation as an opposer to truth!

Oh, what IS an Opposer to truth - there’s a name that someone spoke but I don’t seem to remember it.

Soapy said:

I’ve noticed for quite some time now that you have been just postering rather than offering anything of substance to support your negative squibbling!

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So says the self-appointed GOD of Negative-squibbling...

sojourner said:

Actually, it doesn’t “require a creed.” The creed came before the doctrine.

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So you mean that the doctrine is based on the creed? His odd!!

No it doesn’t. This is an outright lie. But you call me “satanic.” Nice bit of projection there, dontcha think, Mr. Psychology?

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Are you really saying the trinity creed doesn’t threaten that unbelief in the trinity means eternal death?

Hmmm... I wonder what this means then:

• “Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.”

What an amazing jumble of misrepresented credal ideology you’ve presented here — an illogical mess held together only by tissues of lies set upon shifting sands of nonsense. You’ve even somehow managed to misapprehend the concept of worship. Your lengthy diatribe is certainly, among theological constructs, “...full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.”

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Worship... misrepresented... I think not.

But, ok, since you suggest i misrepresent it... what is WORSHIP, in your opinion?

cataway said:

this myth you speak of. is any different than the myth that you are spreading ? saying the man did not say the things we know he said??

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What are you talking about? You blathered something about plagues and walking on the water. To what quotes from whom are you specifically referring?

Soapy said:

So you mean that the doctrine is based on the creed?

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No, I mean that the creed preceded the doctrine. What part of that sentence didn’t you understand? You sure do enjoy reading into things, don’t you?

Soapy said:

Are you really saying the trinity creed doesn’t threaten that unbelief in the trinity means eternal death?

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There is no such thing as the “Trinity Creed.” Here’s what the Nicene Creed says (and it’s the more blatantly Trinitarian):
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only. Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one being with the Father. Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation, he came down from heaven: by the power fo the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontus Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of live, who proceeds from the Gather and the Son. With he Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism fo the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.

Nothing in there — nothing — let me repeat: nothing in there even vaguely threatening or demanding of belief or reminiscent of condemnation. This is what I’m saying about all your arguments: you make stuff up, claim that that’s really what it is, and then proceed to condemn it. There is no “trinity creed,” and the one we do have that’s most deeply Trinitarian doesn’t say what you claim.

You’re lying and the truth ain’t in you.

Soapy said:

Hmmm... I wonder what this means then:

• “Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly

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That’s neither in the creed, nor is it in the doctrine I’ve suggested, asked, requested, and begged you to read for yourself, and you won’t seem to do it. I wonder why that is??

sojourner said:

What are you talking about? You blathered something about plagues and walking on the water. To what quotes from whom are you specifically referring?

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yes Jesus walked on water . how is it you dont know that?

Terry Sampson said:

So says the self-appointed GOD of Negative-squibbling...

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What’s your problem? Just cos no one is talking to you ... do you feel left out? Suffering from separation anxiety?

Not self-appointed. Did Jesus say he was self-appointed when he said:

• ‘What say you of the one that God sanctified (consecrated / Anointed / Set aside / Chose as his own) and sent into the world...’

This, he said in reverence to Isaiah 42:1.

Hmmm... you think speaking the truth is a sin, now?

Soapy said:

What’s your problem? Just cos no one is talking to you ... do you feel left out? Suffering from separation anxiety?

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LOL! The masochist in me was starving for abuse. I miss it when you're gone too long.

By the by, ....

Soapy said:

This, he said in reverence to Isaiah 42:1.

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You misspelled the 5th word; should be "reference".

Soapy said:

Hmmm... you think speaking the truth is a sin, now?

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By no means, ... I love the truth; got some? Like, maybe, what you come to RF for other than harassing folks who don't swallow your opinions whole or calling Trinitarians satanists, or preaching your opinions (a.k.a. proselytizing) in violation of RF Rule 8?

cataway said:

yes Jesus walked on water . how is it you dont know that?

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I’m well aware of the pericope in the Gospels. What quotes are you talking about?

Terry Sampson said:

LOL! The masochist in me was starving for abuse. I miss it when you're gone too long.

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Always happy to provide a little amusement.

By the by, ....

You misspelled the 5th word; should be "reference".

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It was a test to see if you knew the difference. ... but really, “I cannot tell a lie”... it wasn’t my joke...it’s the auto-spellchecker’s...!!

By no means, ... I love the truth; got some? Like, maybe, what you come to RF for other than harassing folks who don't swallow your opinions whole or calling Trinitarians satanists, or preaching your opinions (a.k.a. proselytizing) in violation of RF Rule 8?
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I am not proselytising...

What is the name of the group I am supposedly p...ing to?

And since when I speaking the truth that is written in the scriptures that we are discussing and debating, proselytising...!!!?

If you think what I’m doing is p...ing then you are a hypocrite because aren’t you doing the same!!!

In fact, everyone of us who says even as little as, ‘That’s not true’, would be this classed as p...ing!

So, perhaps, p...ing is too small a word for what it’s definition states.

Actually, what is your objection to the truth of the scriptures?

What exactly are you saying that I’m saying is wrong?

sojourner said:

No, I mean that the creed preceded the doctrine. What part of that sentence didn’t you understand? You sure do enjoy reading into things, don’t you?


There is no such thing as the “Trinity Creed.” Here’s what the Nicene Creed says (and it’s the more blatantly Trinitarian):
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only. Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one being with the Father. Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation, he came down from heaven: by the power fo the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontus Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of live, who proceeds from the Gather and the Son. With he Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism fo the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.

Nothing in there — nothing — let me repeat: nothing in there even vaguely threatening or demanding of belief or reminiscent of condemnation. This is what I’m saying about all your arguments: you make stuff up, claim that that’s really what it is, and then proceed to condemn it. There is no “trinity creed,” and the one we do have that’s most deeply Trinitarian doesn’t say what you claim.

You’re lying and the truth ain’t in you.


That’s neither in the creed, nor is it in the doctrine I’ve suggested, asked, requested, and begged you to read for yourself, and you won’t seem to do it. I wonder why that is??

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Oh, you quote the niceness creed...but forget the Athanasian Creed...and other creeds...

All different then...

Your church teaches??? That’s a joke if they are teaching from the scriptures in the common Christian Bible.

Anyway, I don’t debate the creed as such as it is man made... nothing man made is is eligible unless it is from the scriptures eise we can argue all day long about what is truth.

All the creeds demand that their supporters believe the dishonest man made doctrine. The problem of the belief is that it is 90% truth... yes, 90% ... so the listener will indeed also read a form of truth...

But what about the 10% non-truth... ah, that’s where the deception comes in:

• Let the hearer be warned
  
• Let the listener be warned
• Let him that has ear to hear, hear -
• Let him who has mind to speak, speak!

Once believing the 90%, be careful of the deceptive 10%. Let it be known:

• Truth and fallacy = Fallacy
• Fallacy and Truth = Fallacy

Hear this, truly, and faithfully:
Only:

• Truth and Truth = Truth

So no matter what truth is spoken first of last, if it’s not 100% truth, and the residue is purposely deceptive, the WHOLE is a lie... Any leaven in a dough of bread makes it rise... by accident is forgivable, but on purpose is spiritual death!

Soapy said:

Oh, you quote the niceness creed...but forget the Athanasian Creed...and other creeds...

All different then...

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None of them is “the Trinity Creed” as I said. Can you produce this mystery “trinity creed?” Betcha can’t; apparently, you can’t even read the trinity doctrine for yourself. You continue to sidetrack, backpedal, evade and misdirect.

Soapy said:

Your church teaches??? That’s a joke if they are teaching from the scriptures in the common Christian Bible

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Hmmm... which version is “the Common Christian Bible?” Is it from the same publisher as “the Trinity Creed?”

Soapy said:

Anyway, I don’t debate the creed as such as it is man made... nothing man made is is eligible unless it is from the scriptures eise we can argue all day long about what is truth

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ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!! Everything in religion is “man-made.” The Bible is “man-made,” too.

Soapy said:

All the creeds demand that their supporters believe the dishonest man made doctrine

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I just printed one out verbatim. There are no demands anywhere in it. You’re lying and the truth ain’t in you.

Soapy said:

All the creeds demand that their supporters believe the dishonest man made doctrine. The problem of the belief is that it is 90% truth... yes, 90% ... so the listener will indeed also read a form of truth...

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Belief isn’t a matter of percentages. Belief is a fluid concept.

Soapy said:

So no matter what truth is spoken first of last, if it’s not 100% truth, and the residue is purposely deceptive, the WHOLE is a lie... Any leaven in a dough of bread makes it rise... by accident is forgivable, but on purpose is death

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Hmmm... so when Jesus said that “the kingdom is like a woman who mixed leaven into a lump of dough until all of it was leavened,” he really meant that she did so “by accident?” So the kingdom is “accidental???” Or, it’s “on purpose” and is, therefore, “death??” What percentage of the truth is that dishonest theological statement?

sojourner said:

None of them is “the Trinity Creed” as I said. Can you produce this mystery “trinity creed?” Betcha can’t; apparently, you can’t even read the trinity doctrine for yourself. You continue to sidetrack, backpedal, evade and misdirect.

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This is amazing... you do not even realise that you are confessing the fallacy of trinity in that ‘None of them is Trinity Creed’...

Truly, Truly, Truly, the snake bites it’s own tail!!!

Hmmm... which version is “the Common Christian Bible?” Is it from the same publisher as “the Trinity Creed?”

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sojourner, there is only one TRUE common scriptural bible... Yes, I agree that there many corrupted versions just as there is only one TRUE GOD but many versions, and corrupted ones, in the world:

• ‘For just as there are many Gods and many Lords, for us there is only one God: the Father, and one Lord: Jesus Christ‘

This scripture verse speaks of spiritual matters in that ‘Gods’ simply means:

• ‘Mighty Ones’, ‘Heroes’, ‘Great Ones’...

and for sure there are many such ones...

and ‘Lords’ simply means

• ‘Masters’, ‘Teachers’, ‘Leaders’...

and for sure there are many such ones...,

for the spiritual minded man, there is:

• Only one God

and

• Only one Lord

Therefore, seeing that The Father is God, and Jesus Christ is Lord, they both cannot be one and the same... and yet you notice that ONLY TWO authorities are presiding over the true believer.

Thus, if trinity be true, then trinity claims that:

• TWO EQUAL THREE

which even you will admit is a perversity of reality - even spiritual reality!

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!! Everything in religion is “man-made.” The Bible is “man-made,” too.

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That’s a strange thing to say seeing you are in a Forum debating religious matters!

There is nothing achievable except purposeful controversy by such perverse discourse from you!

Still, as is said in scriptures:

• ‘ArchAngel Michael, in debating with Satan concerning the body of Moses, did not bring a reviling word against him but said only, ‘May God Judge you’ (Jude 1:9)

So also I say to you, sojourner:

• ‘May God Judge you’

By this I mean that many will read what you present in this forum as claiming to be of a Christian religious nature only to reveal now that you think religion is bunkum and man made:

• “Everything in religion is ‘man made’”

Is that not what you said? Why are you here?

I just printed one out verbatim. There are no demands anywhere in it. You’re lying and the truth ain’t in you.

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The quote I gave you is valid... you choose to ignore it. You don’t even mention it and you do know it to be true as to it’s claim... so it is you who is being disingenuous!

Belief isn’t a matter of percentages. Belief is a fluid concept.

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Wrongful Belief must, by nature, be fluid... it must be ‘shifting sands’. As each ideological fallacy is outed, the ideology changes ... trinity, and JW and Mormon ideologies have changed Miriam times in the course of their lifetime...

There is only one truth that has not changed from the time of Jesus Christ to this day...!

Hmmm... so when Jesus said that “the kingdom is like a woman who mixed leaven into a lump of dough until all of it was leavened,” he really meant that she did so “by accident?” So the kingdom is “accidental???” Or, it’s “on purpose” and is, therefore, “death??” What percentage of the truth is that dishonest theological statement?

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sojourner, have you not read of ‘Leaven’? Here is an extract that outlines it (I apologise that if is an off-site quote but it states what I would say so much better):

• “1 Corinthians 5:6-8 draws the parallel between hametz (leaven) and sin – particularly the sin of pride.
  
  “Your boasting is no good. Don’t you know that a little hametz leavens the whole batch of dough? Get rid of the old hametz, so you may be a new batch, just as you are unleavened—for Messiah, our Passover Lamb, has been sacrificed. Therefore let us celebrate the feast not with old hametz, the hametz of malice and wickedness, but with unleavened bread—the matzah of sincerity and truth.”
  
  The idea of being “puffed up” with pride is also mentioned elsewhere by Paul in 1 Corinthians 4:18, 8:1, and Romans 11:11-32. The symbolism is clear – risen bread puffed up with leaven is reminiscent of sinful pride, and unleavened matzo bread is humble, simple, and pure.
  
  Because there is enough leaven just in the air to have an effect on dough, special efforts have to be taken to prevent it from rising. The bread has lines scored across it, and holes pierced through it to help keep it laying low. This reminds us of how Yeshua, humble, pure and sinless, was striped and pierced as he gave his own life for the ultimate Passover sacrifice.”

Soapy said:

Firedragon, why do you sound like a defeated foot soldier?

I’ve noticed for quite some time now that you have been just postering rather than offering anything of substance to support your negative squibbling!

It would help if you actually stated exactly what you are objecting to in your posts rather than just saying, ‘You’re wrong!’

I can understand that you are frustrated with your inability to oppose the truth - but you can’t even do so with anything approaching deviant... perhaps you realise that doing so will get you a reputation as an opposer to truth!

Oh, what IS an Opposer to truth - there’s a name that someone spoke but I don’t seem to remember it.

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Great exegesis. You get a prize.

firedragon said:

Great exegesis. You get a prize.

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It is not your reward I desire - but your understanding of the truth.

Soapy said:

It is not your reward I desire - but your understanding of the truth.

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Well you lied saying "Christian doesn't mean literally mean little Christ". So it's like a cat chasing his own tail.

firedragon said:

Well you lied saying "Christian doesn't mean literally mean little Christ". So it's like a cat chasing his own tail.

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Umm... what do you mean, ‘Lied’?

I said that ‘Christian’ means, ‘Like Christ’!

Where is the ‘Lie’ in that?

But here is a thing... please quote me a source which states that ‘Christian’ means ‘Little Christ’.