nPeace
Veteran Member
Predate?
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The Ten Plagues of Egypt- allegorical or historical?
- Thread starter Dawnofhope
- Start date
Wandering Monk
Well-Known Member
This seems to suggest that the Exodus account may have been inspired by the earlier stories found in Ipuwer.
Good-Ole-Rebel
Well-Known Member
amorphous_constellation
Well-Known Member
Is there anything about this biblical story that is socially innovative? Is it socially useful to perpetually remember transgressions that others make toward you? (Or is that not what this is about somehow?) In my own life for example, it seems that 'forgive and forget' is sometimes a more socially efficient option when it comes to interpersonal relationships. I don't want to hold grudges against my neighbor or brother forever, if possible. I should think that remembering problems from 4 or 5 thousand years ago might obfuscate social efficiency somewhat, no?
Or, rather. they may both have been "inspired" by earlier disasters conflated and, perhaps, shifted in time. There is an almost perennial search for causes. (IMO, one of the more informed and entertaining attempts is Barbara Sivertsen's The Parting of the Sea.)
One of the unfortunate things about discussions of "biblical history" and "biblical archaeology" is the superficial Egypt/Israel focus. There was a lot of stuff going on at the time. An interesting book to read for context about the world that gave us Israel and it's lore is Eric Cline's 1177 B.C.; The Year Civilization Collapsed - truly the stuff of legend.
amorphous_constellation
Well-Known Member
I guess I'm not quickly seeing the connection. Weren't they not 'strangers,' but slaves?
I'm both surprised and sorry that you see no value in the Exodus narrative, but that's a discussion that will take us far off topic. (You may wish to consider posting a question in the Judaism DIR.)
amorphous_constellation
Well-Known Member
mostly I'm just asking questions.. not trying to give cause to surprise or anything..
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
They do if one understands their "language", which is why those in my field (anthropology) have to rely on bio-chemists and physicists who do understand their "language". OTOH, all scriptures were written by people who we don't know, can't question, and whom are writing to a large extent subjectively. However, I am in no way suggesting that all scriptures are wrong-- just that in most cases we cannot verify that they're objectively correct. IOW, we sorta have to discern for ourselves that which we decide to believe.
Science, otoh, doesn't work that way because tentative conclusions must be evidence-based with such evidence being in full display (peer review).
All religions claim "eyewitness testimony", so do you believe in what all religions teach?
However, with that being said, even though I can't go back thousands of years ago to check this out for myself, there's enough there for me to get my teeth into, especially based on my experiences, which is why I am a believer in God and Jesus.
Absolutely false, and even most theologians are not likely to agree with you. Religion is based on "faith", science is based on the "scientific method", and they simply are not even close to being the same.
I read one of his books and found his approach having "answers begging the questions". I even debated this, informally though.
I never called you a "liar". But looking back at what you wrote, I do agree that I appear to be wrong in feeling that you were just slamming me. Sorry.
I never said it was "inferior" but that it's not held up to the same level of scrutiny as we have in science. In my anthropology course, I told my students that if they are still conflicted about the ToE at the end of the course because of their religious beliefs, that I recommend they go with the latter since that will have a far greater impact on their lives.
I have taught both for many years, and they simply are not handled the same way nor with the same level of objectivity. Religion, by it's nature, is largely subjective, which is why people here at RF debate and argue religion but with no way of proving themselves right.
whirlingmerc
Well-Known Member
I think its off topic.
whirlingmerc
Well-Known Member
Well they support the historicity of Semitic slaves in Egypt.
there is also The Ipuwer Papyrus
Is there extra-biblical evidence of the ten plagues in Egypt? | GotQuestions.org
"The Ipuwer Papyrus is an ancient document that provides a possible independent record of the ten plagues in Egypt. It describes a great disaster that took place in ancient Egypt. The oldest copy dates to around 1400 BC, placing it close to the time of the Exodus (circa 1446 BC). The Ipuwer Papyrus is the sole surviving manuscript of an ancient Egyptian poem officially designated as Papyrus Leiden I-344. The poem is known as “The Admonitions of Ipuwer.” A new edition is available now entitled “The Dialogue of Ipuwer and the Lord of All.” Dutchman Giovanni Anastasi purchased the Ipuwer Papyrus in 1828, and it is now housed in Leiden, the Netherlands, at the Dutch National Museum of Antiquities, the Rijksmuseum van Oudheden.
...
The tenth and last plague (the death of firstborn males). Every household that did not apply the blood of the Passover sacrifice saw the death of the firstborn (Exodus 12:23). The Ipuwer Papyrus says, “Forsooth, the children of princes are dashed against the walls” (4:3 and 5:6). “Forsooth, the children of princes are cast out in the streets” (6:12). “He who places his brother in the ground is everywhere” (2:13). “It is groaning throughout the land, mingled with lamentations” (3:14).
The Ipuwer Papyrus also contains a possible reference to the Hebrews’ departure from Egypt, laden with treasures: “Gold and lapis lazuli, silver and malachite, carnelian and bronze . . . are fastened on the neck of female slaves” (3:2; cf. Exodus 12:35–38). Further, there is a possible description of the pillar of fire: “Behold, the fire has mounted up on high. Its burning goes forth against the enemies of the land” (7:1; cf. Exodus 13:20–22).
"
duh ...
MNoBody
Well-Known Member
given the poll choice [the last box -does not reflect my thinking]
which would be that I think it is mostly allegorical, loosely based on historical events,and personages, in ways that are difficult to see, due to the data loss over time..
and while we may never know for certain, possibly we might..... but that is hard to say from here with all the fragmented data
the nag hammadi material and other bona fide materials are such fun to read in their time redacted format
whole paragraphs and sections of vital data, just missing..... whole libraries destroyed by ruling juntas to conceal [easier to sell a counterfeit when the originals are destroyed]
so all that etc makes the whole topic a challenge
which would be that I think it is mostly allegorical, loosely based on historical events,and personages, in ways that are difficult to see, due to the data loss over time..
and while we may never know for certain, possibly we might..... but that is hard to say from here with all the fragmented data
the nag hammadi material and other bona fide materials are such fun to read in their time redacted format
whole paragraphs and sections of vital data, just missing..... whole libraries destroyed by ruling juntas to conceal [easier to sell a counterfeit when the originals are destroyed]
so all that etc makes the whole topic a challenge
MNoBody
Well-Known Member
erm....slavery in egypt.....
there is no real evidence of a slave trade in Egypt, no slave markets and the like.... to corroborate with mythical claims
added a link to back that
Egypt tombs suggest pyramids not built by slaves
there is no real evidence of a slave trade in Egypt, no slave markets and the like.... to corroborate with mythical claims
added a link to back that
Egypt tombs suggest pyramids not built by slaves
Not really what we'retalking about in this thread. Inferring meaning from something doesn't mean that this meaning was intentional on the part of person who created it.
People find meaning in tea leaves.
This is different from what's happening with an allegory. In an allegory, a (usually fictional) story is used to deliberately communicate the author's intended meaning.
It only communicates this if the story is literally true. If it's a collection of deeds that God didn't actually do, then it's useless to establish God's greatness or power.
... unless God himself is an allegory, too. If God is nothing more than a fictional character in something akin to a collection of fables, then sure: fictional stories about how great God is establish God's character within the context of the stories, but not in the context of reality.
Is this the approach you're taking? I didn't think you were an atheist.
What "rich symbolism" are you talking about specifically?
erm....slavery in egypt.....
there is no real evidence of a slave trade in Egypt, no slave markets and the like.... to corroborate with mythical claims
added a link to back that
Egypt tombs suggest pyramids not built by slaves
Did you?
Let's see.
From your "added link to back that" ...
CAIRO (Reuters) - New tombs found in Giza support the view that the Great Pyramids were built by free workers and not slaves, as widely believed, Egypt’s chief archaeologist said on Sunday.
From Wikipedia :: Giza Pyramid Complex : Pyramids and Sphinx ...
The Pyramids of Giza consist of the Great Pyramid of Giza (also known as the Pyramid of Cheops or Khufu and constructed c. 2580 – c. 2560 BC), the somewhat smaller Pyramid of Khafre (or Chephren) a few hundred meters to the south-west, and the relatively modest-sized Pyramid of Menkaure (or Mykerinos) a few hundred meters farther south-west. The Great Sphinx lies on the east side of the complex. Current consensus among Egyptologists is that the head of the Great Sphinx is that of Khafre. Along with these major monuments are a number of smaller satellite edifices, known as "queens" pyramids, causeways and valley pyramids.
Now, try to grasp the following ...
- Giza is not Pithom, and
- c.2580 - c.2560 BCE predates the purported Exodus by at least a millennium.
MNoBody
Well-Known Member
well biblical stories meanings are kind of like the JFK shellgame.....likely people will never know, since it isn't desired that people know, concealed things are kept buried and the dead, well, they bury the dead so the man said.
and witnesses have been eliminated over the span of history, other cultures ancient archives and monuments, libraries....millennial spanning cover-ups usually take something kind of a miraculous level to get a break in the case
and witnesses have been eliminated over the span of history, other cultures ancient archives and monuments, libraries....millennial spanning cover-ups usually take something kind of a miraculous level to get a break in the case
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I would certainly say that it is a matter of faith to accept a religious document as inerrantly true. These sacred manuscripts are collections of many genres: regular history, legend, myth, poetry and song, wisdom, plays...
If you want to have faith in your Bible as being the inerrant word of God, fine. But admit that it is an act of faith, and not because this is something you can prove.