What is the difference between the new and old covenant?

rational experiences · Mar 30, 2020

Science is human invented.

There was no old covenant of God just as there was not any new covenant either.

Earth is a natural planet of stone sitting in a natural body, cold deep empty space.
Earth is a natural planet that evolved its own atmospheric released gases into that space body.

Sun a natural body exploded, released stone, attacked stone with consuming metal radiation...that also cooled in out of space.

Earth sitting in a natural position survived by where it once sat in space....for radiation metal cooled in out of space and remained held as metal and radiation in out of space.

Earth converted attacked by hot metal radiation cooled in spatially owned conditions.

Natural history not owned by scientists. Fact of evidence you only control pushing buttons on machines.

rrobs · Mar 31, 2020

IndigoChild5559 said:
There is no temple in which to offer sacrifice. The prophet Hosea gives us instruction of what to do in such a case:
"The words of our lips (prayers) shall be as bullocks (offerings)."
Hosea 14:2

That works. Never noticed the verse before. Thanks!

rrobs · Mar 31, 2020

IndigoChild5559 said:
Remember that Galatians is written to Gentiles, for whom the Law was never given in the first place.

Yes and no.

Paul himself was quite Jewish as was most of the early believers. Also the verse does say, "our schoolmaster." Who is the "our?" Since, as you said, the law was not given to Gentiles, the "our" must refer to a predominately Jewish congregation.

From the context of Galatians it appears that although they understood they were saved by grace, they had begun to put themselves under the law again. Paul was trying to tell them to do good works, not out of law, but out of love.
I think the first few verses in the 3rd chapter gives a good overall summary of what Paul was telling the Galatians.

I respect your view of Paul. I strongly disagree, but I do respect it.

Take care.

IndigoChild5559 · Mar 31, 2020

rrobs said:
Yes and no.

Paul himself was quite Jewish as was most of the early believers. Also the verse does say, "our schoolmaster." Who is the "our?" Since, as you said, the law was not given to Gentiles, the "our" must refer to a predominately Jewish congregation.

From the context of Galatians it appears that although they understood they were saved by grace, they had begun to put themselves under the law again. Paul was trying to tell them to do good works, not out of law, but out of love.
I think the first few verses in the 3rd chapter gives a good overall summary of what Paul was telling the Galatians.

I respect your view of Paul. I strongly disagree, but I do respect it.

Take care.

I may have this wrong. I did go out of my way to study this time where the caldron of Second Temple Judaism produced both Rabbinic Judaism and Christianity, and how the two separated. But I certainly don't have a PhD or anything close to it. I seem to recall that the name Galatia has its origins in that its people were of Gaelic extraction. IOW the Gentiles of Gentiles. It was not place where you were going to find a lot of Jews, certainly not whole congregations of Jews.

The first believers were of course Jews, centered in Jerusalem, under James. These believers continued being Jewish, keeping the 613 laws of the Torah and oral law. When Gentile converts came, they were divided (see the eventual resolution at the council of Jerusalem). Some taught them to convert to Judaism and take upon themselves Jewish law. This is why you had Gentiles obeying Jewish law.

This is not standard Judaism, nor has it ever been. It is true that if a Gentile becomes a permanent resident WITHIN Israel, they were expected to convert. But outside of the promised land, there was never any reason to expect that a Gentile become a Jew and take up the Law. This is why the Council of Jerusalem inevitably rejected the Judaizing of Gentile converts.

metis · Mar 31, 2020

IndigoChild5559 said:
The first believers were of course Jews, centered in Jerusalem, under James. These believers continued being Jewish, keeping the 613 laws of the Torah and oral law. When Gentile converts came, they were divided (see the eventual resolution at the council of Jerusalem). Some taught them to convert to Judaism and take upon themselves Jewish law. This is why you had Gentiles obeying Jewish law.

There really weren't forced conversions, though, and there was a number of what are called in English "God-Fearers" who often hung around the Temple and possibly synagogues but didn't convert to Judaism. They had to abide by halacha to a limited extend since much of it was also part of what we now call "civil law".

The Ebionites are believed to have insisted on full observance of the Law, but they very much were in the minority as the larger group didn't insist on full conversion to Judaism, which caused quite a bit of friction between the groups, including in the diasporah. This conflict is alluded to in Paul's letter to the Romans, with the appeal of allowing observant Jews to remain as such but not to try and coerce Gentiles to convert to Judaism per se.

As the Church moved more out into the diasporah, and many more Gentiles flocking to it, the appointees and the leadership gradually shifted away from any semblance of halacha, and this shift is reflected in both the gospels and the epistles.

rrobs · Mar 31, 2020

IndigoChild5559 said:
I may have this wrong. I did go out of my way to study this time where the caldron of Second Temple Judaism produced both Rabbinic Judaism and Christianity, and how the two separated. But I certainly don't have a PhD or anything close to it. I seem to recall that the name Galatia has its origins in that its people were of Gaelic extraction. IOW the Gentiles of Gentiles. It was not place where you were going to find a lot of Jews, certainly not whole congregations of Jews.

The first believers were of course Jews, centered in Jerusalem, under James. These believers continued being Jewish, keeping the 613 laws of the Torah and oral law. When Gentile converts came, they were divided (see the eventual resolution at the council of Jerusalem). Some taught them to convert to Judaism and take upon themselves Jewish law. This is why you had Gentiles obeying Jewish law.

This is not standard Judaism, nor has it ever been. It is true that if a Gentile becomes a permanent resident WITHIN Israel, they were expected to convert. But outside of the promised land, there was never any reason to expect that a Gentile become a Jew and take up the Law. This is why the Council of Jerusalem inevitably rejected the Judaizing of Gentile converts.

Well, I'm not anywhere close to a PhD myself. But at least we can learn from those who are. Of course, there is a certain amount of trust demanded, but when many say the same thing, we are safe in believing what they say. But, to me at least, all of that assumes that what they say is not a blatant contradiction of the scriptures, whether they be Jewish or Christian.

You made some excellent points. It is true enough the Galatia was a predominately Gentile city. However that would not preclude at least some Jews also living there. Remember, they were scattered abroad when they were taken captive by Babylon and Persia. There is this I found regarding Jews in Galatia:

"Peter also wrote to the Galatians among others. He mentions the Galatians among "exiles of the dispersion (diaspora)" (1Peter 1:1). James also wrote to "the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad" (James 1:1).

This refers to Jews whose homeland was Judea, its capital Jerusalem. However, social, political, economic, and religious pressures caused many Jews to migrate to places like Galatia, where they were still able to keep in touch with "home".

The Jews established synagogues around the world (eg Acts 13:4-5,14). Galatia was no exception. Ruins of synagogues can still be found today in what was once Galatia. Inside these synagogues Paul would teach the Jews, and make converts of some to Jesus Christ."

Introduction to Galatians - Background to Paul’s Letter to the Galatian Churches

Take care my friend.

IndigoChild5559 · Mar 31, 2020

metis said:
There really weren't forced conversions, though, and there was a number of what are called in English "God-Fearers" who often hung around the Temple and possibly synagogues but didn't convert to Judaism. They had to abide by halacha to a limited extend since much of it was also part of what we now call "civil law".

The Ebionites are believed to have insisted on full observance of the Law, but they very much were in the minority as the larger group didn't insist on full conversion to Judaism, which caused quite a bit of friction between the groups, including in the diasporah. This conflict is alluded to in Paul's letter to the Romans, with the appeal of allowing observant Jews to remain as such but not to try and coerce Gentiles to convert to Judaism per se.

As the Church moved more out into the diasporah, and many more Gentiles flocking to it, the appointees and the leadership gradually shifted away from any semblance of halacha, and this shift is reflected in both the gospels and the epistles.

The God-fearers that converted and didn't feel the need to convert similarly felt no need to keep Jewish Law. IOW conversion to Judaism and keeping the Law always went together.

The Ebionites were a group that came later than the time period we are discussing.

IndigoChild5559 · Mar 31, 2020

rrobs said:
Well, I'm not anywhere close to a PhD myself. But at least we can learn from those who are. Of course, there is a certain amount of trust demanded, but when many say the same thing, we are safe in believing what they say. But, to me at least, all of that assumes that what they say is not a blatant contradiction of the scriptures, whether they be Jewish or Christian.

You made some excellent points. It is true enough the Galatia was a predominately Gentile city. However that would not preclude at least some Jews also living there. Remember, they were scattered abroad when they were taken captive by Babylon and Persia. There is this I found regarding Jews in Galatia:

"Peter also wrote to the Galatians among others. He mentions the Galatians among "exiles of the dispersion (diaspora)" (1Peter 1:1). James also wrote to "the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad" (James 1:1).

This refers to Jews whose homeland was Judea, its capital Jerusalem. However, social, political, economic, and religious pressures caused many Jews to migrate to places like Galatia, where they were still able to keep in touch with "home".

The Jews established synagogues around the world (eg Acts 13:4-5,14). Galatia was no exception. Ruins of synagogues can still be found today in what was once Galatia. Inside these synagogues Paul would teach the Jews, and make converts of some to Jesus Christ."

Introduction to Galatians - Background to Paul’s Letter to the Galatian Churches

Take care my friend.

Sure there were small pockets of Jews in Galatia, and their synagogues. But only a smidgeon of these became believers. You just didn't have entire congregations of Jewish believers out in the diaspora the way you had in Jerusalem. That's what made Jerusalem so unique.

And it being that these Jews were a mere handful in their Gentile populations, Paul isn't really writing to them.

metis · Apr 1, 2020

IndigoChild5559 said:
The God-fearers that converted and didn't feel the need to convert similarly felt no need to keep Jewish Law. IOW conversion to Judaism and keeping the Law always went together.

Exactly, which is why a wall of separation gradually emerged quite early on.

IndigoChild5559 said:
The Ebionites were a group that came later than the time period we are discussing.

"Ebionite" is an assigned name, thus not one used by them. The element that formed that group was really there from the get-go as Paul alludes to them, such as in the Book of Romans. In Rome, there were two sets of "churches" (at this stage, archaeologists refer to them as "synagogues"), with one observing Jewish Law and the other one not, thus there was friction between them.

Spartan · Apr 3, 2020

2ndpillar said:
What is the Christian perspective of the New Covenant? I know they refer to Jeremiah 31:31-34...

Spartan · Apr 3, 2020

2ndpillar said:
"...the false gospel of grace by the false prophet Paul, has not sheltered them from the plagues of Egypt as well."

Paul is legitimate. Paul and Jesus agree on the major tenets of the faith. Click on the following link for numerous examples. Did Jesus and Paul teach the same thing? | CARM.org

2ndpillar said:
On the other hand, the Christians apparently think that under their "new covenant", that they are "saved", and no good works, such as helping their neighbors are required.

The way you present that is misleading. While good works by themselves do not not save believers, they are certainly a significant part of the Christian experience.

"Works of a Godly nature are the result of our regeneration and salvation, not the cause of it. Faith by grace is the antecedent of works. It chronologically occurs first. Once the Holy Spirit indwells a believer at the point of salvation, He starts the process of Progressive Sanctification, and one of the effects of the indwelling Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5-7) is that of causing, or compelling a person, by a change of heart and mind and with the believer’s cooperation, to perform works of a Godly nature."

Paul confirms works are important to believers:

“I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds (works).” (Acts 26:20)

Justification by Faith – How believers are declared righteous by God

2ndpillar said:
They (Christians) think they will escape death and destruction..."

Those Christians who have repented of their sins and received Christ as their Savior will be saved and resurrected (from the dead) unto eternal life.

2ndpillar said:
, yet their (Christian) track record has not been good.

The New Testament never says Christians are perfect and without sin (1 John 1:8), but Christian individuals and missionaries have done countless, wonderful and charitable things all over this planet. So the next time you're down and out, there's probably a caring Christian homeless mission near by you can go to for help.

rrobs · Apr 3, 2020

Spartan said:

Seems pretty simple to me. Thanks.

2ndpillar · Apr 3, 2020

Spartan said:

I think you will find the "old" covenant in the ark of the covenant, which is different from what you have presented. I think you will find the "new" covenant based on the writings of the unknown writer of Hebrews, and the babble/babel of Paul, founder of the "Christian" church, a daughter of Babylon, is based on the same lie as from the serpent (Gen 3:4).

rrobs · Apr 3, 2020

Spartan said:
Paul is legitimate. Paul and Jesus agree on the major tenets of the faith. Click on the following link for numerous examples. Did Jesus and Paul teach the same thing? | CARM.org

The way you present that is misleading. While good works by themselves do not not save believers, they are certainly a significant part of the Christian experience.

"Works of a Godly nature are the result of our regeneration and salvation, not the cause of it. Faith by grace is the antecedent of works. It chronologically occurs first. Once the Holy Spirit indwells a believer at the point of salvation, He starts the process of Progressive Sanctification, and one of the effects of the indwelling Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5-7) is that of causing, or compelling a person, by a change of heart and mind and with the believer’s cooperation, to perform works of a Godly nature."

Paul confirms works are important to believers:

“I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds (works).” (Acts 26:20)

Justification by Faith – How believers are declared righteous by God

Those Christians who have repented of their sins and received Christ as their Savior will be saved and resurrected (from the dead) unto eternal life.

The New Testament never says Christians are perfect and without sin (1 John 1:8), but Christian individuals and missionaries have done countless, wonderful and charitable things all over this planet. So the next time you're down and out, there's probably a caring Christian homeless mission near by you can go to for help.

Good post. Thanks.

Gal 3:1-3,

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

It's always been amazing to me how these simple verses could somehow be twisted into saying we must finish the work Jesus apparently was unable to do. I've asked many who think we must finish that work how many sins we get before it's to late. I've asked hundreds of times and so far nobody cares to speculate.

When Jesus said, "It is finished" seconds before he died, that is exactly what he meant. Our savior is a complete savior. We act out of love, not out of fear of damnation. I pity those who must worry about their worth to God. I know they are sincere, but sincerity is no guarantee for accuracy.

1John 1:8-9,

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Whenever I sin, and make no mistake, I do sin (as per verse 8), I admit I sinned to the Father knowing that He will forgive me and cleanse me from all unrighteousness and I see no limits to how many times I can do that.

The 7th chapter of Romans is a good read. Apparently not even Paul could keep his flesh spotless, but he had a great solution to the problem. So do we!

God bless and thanks again for holding forth the truth.

2ndpillar · Apr 3, 2020

Spartan said:
Paul is legitimate. Paul and Jesus agree on the major tenets of the faith. Click on the following link for numerous examples. Did Jesus and Paul teach the same thing? | CARM.org

The way you present that is misleading. While good works by themselves do not not save believers, they are certainly a significant part of the Christian experience.

"Works of a Godly nature are the result of our regeneration and salvation, not the cause of it. Faith by grace is the antecedent of works. It chronologically occurs first. Once the Holy Spirit indwells a believer at the point of salvation, He starts the process of Progressive Sanctification, and one of the effects of the indwelling Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5-7) is that of causing, or compelling a person, by a change of heart and mind and with the believer’s cooperation, to perform works of a Godly nature."

Paul confirms works are important to believers:

“I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds (works).” (Acts 26:20)

Justification by Faith – How believers are declared righteous by God

Those Christians who have repented of their sins and received Christ as their Savior will be saved and resurrected (from the dead) unto eternal life.

The New Testament never says Christians are perfect and without sin (1 John 1:8), but Christian individuals and missionaries have done countless, wonderful and charitable things all over this planet. So the next time you're down and out, there's probably a caring Christian homeless mission near by you can go to for help.

Paul is "legitimate" according to you and the "many" described in Mt 7:13-15, led by the "false prophets" "to destruction". "Those who dwell on the earth" have been deceived by the beast with two horns like a lamb (Rev 13), Constantine, who built his Roman Trinity church upon the two he glorified by building basilicas for each, Peter, the "worthless shepherd" of Zech 11:16-17), the "stumbling block to me" (Mt 16:23) and Paul, of "those who commit lawlessness" (Mt 13:39:42) who shall be gathered out by the "angels" and "cast" into the furnace of fire. According to Constantine's vision in 310 with Sol Invictus/Satan, he went out to conquer the world under the pagan sign of the cross, exemplified by Paul's false gospel of grace. Only those without the sign of the beast will arise at the first resurrection (Rev 20:4). Those with the sign of the beast apparently taste from the cup of God's wrath (Rev 19:20-21). As for repenting of one's sins and being baptized, Yeshua told the "brood of vipers", that unless they produce fruit in line with their repentance, he would cut them down and throw them into the fire (Mt 3). Yeshua also mentioned that to be "saved", which is saved from the coming Tribulation (Mt 24:13-22 & Joel 2), one must "endure to the end". Well we are at the "end of the age" (Mt 13:40), and the angels are coming, and the kingdom of God is being preached (Mt 24:13-14), which is the antithesis of the false gospel of grace.

Spartan · Apr 4, 2020

2ndpillar: "...exemplified by Paul's false gospel of grace."

Explain why Paul allegedly has a "false gospel of grace"? I don't see it.

Etritonakin · Apr 4, 2020

2ndpillar said:
What is the Christian perspective of the New Covenant? I know they refer to Jeremiah 31:31-34 whereas with regards to the house of Israel and house of Judah,I will put "My law within them", as their new covenant, but the nations/Gentiles are not mentioned, and they, nor Jacob apparently "Know the LORD", the final product of the "new covenant", and do not have to teach each other to "Know the LORD".

As for the original covenant, "My law", if one was to keep it, they would not suffer the plagues of Egypt, yet Jacob, did not keep it and have been under judgment ever since. Whereas the Christians and their proposed new covenant, the false gospel of grace by the false prophet Paul, has not sheltered them from the plagues of Egypt as well.

"My law" of the first covenant seemed to be pivoted around loving your neighbor by not stealing from him, defrauding him or killing him, and if he was in need to feed him. If you didn't take care of him, well, one faces judgment (Mt 25:32) & (Ezekiel 34). Yeshua's comment on the matter was that if one didn't do this, which was produce good fruit, one would be thrown into the fire (Matthew 3:10), even if one repented and was baptized.

On the other hand, the Christians apparently think that under their "new covenant", that they are "saved", and no good works, such as helping their neighbors are required. They think they will escape death and destruction, yet their track record has not been good. Have they like Eve, eaten the forbidden fruit and think they will not die, yet will in effect, like "every one" will die for their own iniquities (Jeremiah 31:30).

The commandments were written in stone, as it were. They have not changed.
The first commandment includes living by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God -and allows for judgments which do change over time.
A good example of this is the matter of clean and unclean food.
They changed over time from no animal flesh, all animal flesh, only some animal flesh -and later no animal flesh again (not even the animals will consume each other).
Another example is Christ changing the judgment concerning stoning for adultery -when he crouched down as if writing in the sand (as judgments are written in sand, as it were).

Judgments changed because God's overall plan calls for different things at different times.

God's plan is to make gods -billions of them -the children of God. The firstfruits of the children of God (of all nations) will literally be the government -kings and priests -on Earth under Christ for the first thousand years after his return (then the entire creation).

The old covenant was a beginning -which affected a people so that their offspring would be different due to growing up in a different situation.
The old covenant -and the associated judgments -kept sin out of Israel as much as possible by deterrents -and even literally removing sinners by death.
It created both an environment and mindset which shaped future generations.

The old covenant prepared those future generations to receive the new covenant. It also prepared Israelites to bring the gospel -and new covenant -to all nations.
The apostles and their mindsets, etc., for example, were a product of their environment -which was a result of the old covenant.

The old covenant was an agreement -and some of it actually still stands. Old judgments have changed under the new covenant, but God will keep his end of the agreement. Israel may have broken their end of the agreement, but God's word to people back then -and the covenant itself -included specific blessings -and also God bringing judgments upon them -including future generations -if they did break the agreement to obey him. Even those judgments, however, are part of how God refines us and prepares us to be the children of God.

Isa 13:11And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.

Salvation -eternal life -is by grace, but works -though they do not EARN it - ARE A REQUIREMENT to receive that gift.

Matt 19:17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

James 2:22Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was [j]accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

2ndpillar · Apr 5, 2020

Spartan said:
2ndpillar: "...exemplified by Paul's false gospel of grace."

Explain why Paul allegedly has a "false gospel of grace"? I don't see it.

Paul's gospel of grace/cross, is antithetical to the gospel of the kingdom. The gospel of the kingdom is when "My servant David" will rule over the combined "stick" of "Judah" and "Ephraim"/house of Israel (Ezekiel 37), and "they shall live on the land I gave to Jacob", and "keep My statutes". They will be given a "new heart" and a "new spirit", and be "gathered out of the nations" (Ez 36:24 & 26). It is a time when all the nations/Gentiles, in which Israel had been "scattered", would be destroyed completely (Jeremiah 30:11) & (Daniel 2:44). Babylon and her daughters will find their ending. Paul and his church of lawlessness, will be among the fallen (Matthew 7:23-27) & (Mt 13:40-41). You can get out now, or suffer the consequences. (Rev 18:4)

2ndpillar · Apr 5, 2020

Etritonakin said:
The commandments were written in stone, as it were. They have not changed.
The first commandment includes living by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God -and allows for judgments which do change over time.
A good example of this is the matter of clean and unclean food.
They changed over time from no animal flesh, all animal flesh, only some animal flesh -and later no animal flesh again (not even the animals will consume each other).
Another example is Christ changing the judgment concerning stoning for adultery -when he crouched down as if writing in the sand (as judgments are written in sand, as it were).

Judgments changed because God's overall plan calls for different things at different times.

God's plan is to make gods -billions of them -the children of God. The firstfruits of the children of God (of all nations) will literally be the government -kings and priests -on Earth under Christ for the first thousand years after his return (then the entire creation).

The old covenant was a beginning -which affected a people so that their offspring would be different due to growing up in a different situation.
The old covenant -and the associated judgments -kept sin out of Israel as much as possible by deterrents -and even literally removing sinners by death.
It created both an environment and mindset which shaped future generations.

The old covenant prepared those future generations to receive the new covenant. It also prepared Israelites to bring the gospel -and new covenant -to all nations.
The apostles and their mindsets, etc., for example, were a product of their environment -which was a result of the old covenant.

The old covenant was an agreement -and some of it actually still stands. Old judgments have changed under the new covenant, but God will keep his end of the agreement. Israel may have broken their end of the agreement, but God's word to people back then -and the covenant itself -included specific blessings -and also God bringing judgments upon them -including future generations -if they did break the agreement to obey him. Even those judgments, however, are part of how God refines us and prepares us to be the children of God.

Isa 13:11And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.

Salvation -eternal life -is by grace, but works -though they do not EARN it - ARE A REQUIREMENT to receive that gift.

Matt 19:17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

James 2:22Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was [j]accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

The only ones ruling with "Christ" will be those who had not worshipped the beast or those without the mark of the beast (Rev 20:4). Of course the mark of the beast, the beast with two horn like a lamb, is the pagan sign given by the dragon/devil/Sol Invictus to Constantine, in which he was to conquer the world. That was the sign of the cross which you can find on almost every church of Peter and Paul, the two Christ like horn of the beast by which he was to conquer the world.

As for who receives "eternal life", all are to be judged for their "deeds", and the only ones besides the false prophet, the beast and the devil who receive eternal life are those written in the book of life (Rev 20). While the false prophet does apparently receive "eternal life" (Rev 20:10), it is not the kind one would wish for. Be careful what you wish for.

Etritonakin · Apr 5, 2020

2ndpillar said:
The only ones ruling with "Christ" will be those who had not worshipped the beast or those without the mark of the beast (Rev 20:4). Of course the mark of the beast, the beast with two horn like a lamb, is the pagan sign given by the dragon/devil/Sol Invictus to Constantine, in which he was to conquer the world. That was the sign of the cross which you can find on almost every church of Peter and Paul, the two Christ like horn of the beast by which he was to conquer the world.

As for who receives "eternal life", all are to be judged for their "deeds", and the only ones besides the false prophet, the beast and the devil who receive eternal life are those written in the book of life (Rev 20). While the false prophet does apparently receive "eternal life" (Rev 20:10), it is not the kind one would wish for. Be careful what you wish for.

Will try to respond more later... initial thoughts....

Rev 7:9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

How is the cross in hands and foreheads?

What is the difference between the new and old covenant?

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