Coronavirus: CPAP to the rescue?

Rather than ham-handed attempts to speed the production of horse-pulled buggies, there are alternatives like this one. I hate to write this, but I assume the USA will go into a spasm of "not invented here" plus lobbying on the part of medical device manufacturers to keep this nefarious threat to the medical industry profits out of the US.

Coronavirus: Mercedes F1 to make breathing aid

A breathing aid that can help keep coronavirus patients out of intensive care has been created in under a week.

University College London engineers worked with clinicians at UCLH and Mercedes Formula One to build the device, which delivers oxygen to the lungs without needing a ventilator.

Continuous Positive Airway Pressure (CPAP) devices are already used in hospitals but are in short supply.
...
If trials go well, up to 1,000 of the CPAP machines can be produced per day by Mercedes-AMG-HPP, beginning in a week's time.

One of my co-workers has been having difficulty getting replacement parts for her CPAP for her sleep disorder. It's not like the company is going to be stuck with a glut of equipment if they ramp up production now for the Covid -19 pandemic.

sun rise said:

Rather than ham-handed attempts to speed the production of horse-pulled buggies, there are alternatives like this one. I hate to write this, but I assume the USA will go into a spasm of "not invented here" plus lobbying on the part of medical device manufacturers to keep this nefarious threat to the medical industry profits out of the US.

Coronavirus: Mercedes F1 to make breathing aid

A breathing aid that can help keep coronavirus patients out of intensive care has been created in under a week.

University College London engineers worked with clinicians at UCLH and Mercedes Formula One to build the device, which delivers oxygen to the lungs without needing a ventilator.

Continuous Positive Airway Pressure (CPAP) devices are already used in hospitals but are in short supply.
...
If trials go well, up to 1,000 of the CPAP machines can be produced per day by Mercedes-AMG-HPP, beginning in a week's time.

Click to expand...

This I think is a response to the recent advice from Italian doctors that CPAP is enough for a lot of Covid-19 patients. It has the huge advantage of not requiring the patient to be anaesthetised , intubated and closely supervised by specialists in an ICU. This was reported last week by one of the London consultants that has been involved in learning what we can from Italy.

By the way, he was full of respect for his Italian colleagues, who have spent extra hours, after long and punishing hospital shifts, to collate, translate and communicate everything they have been able to learn, to help other countries.

exchemist said:

This I think is a response to the recent advice from Italian doctors that CPAP is enough for a lot of Covid-19 patients. It has the huge advantage of not requiring the patient to be anaesthetised , intubated and closely supervised by specialists in an ICU. This was reported last week by one of the London consultants that has been involved in learning what we can from Italy.

By the way, he was full of respect for his Italian colleagues, who have spent extra hours, after long and punishing hospital shifts, to collate, translate and communicate everything they have been able to learn, to help other countries.

Click to expand...

Well, those, the doctors, are humans as humans ought to be.

Regards
Mikkel

sun rise said:

I hate to write this, but I assume the USA will go into a spasm of "not invented here" plus lobbying on the part of medical device manufacturers to keep this nefarious threat to the medical industry profits out of the US.

Click to expand...

Why assume that?
From your linked article....
"Meanwhile a consortium of UK industrial, technology and engineering businesses in the UK has come together to produce medical ventilators for the NHS.
The "VentilatorChallengeUK" consortium includes Airbus, BAE Systems, Ford, Rolls-Royce and Siemens.
Companies in the consortium have received orders for more than 10,000 ventilators from the government, although MHRA approval is still pending."

Note that Ford is a US company.
Note also the underlined text.
(Medical Hot Rod Association?)
Government approval might instead be the hurdle.
But I won't presume dysfunctional/nefarious motives as a default.

Revoltingest said:

Why assume that?
From your linked article....
"Meanwhile a consortium of UK industrial, technology and engineering businesses in the UK has come together to produce medical ventilators for the NHS.
The "VentilatorChallengeUK" consortium includes Airbus, BAE Systems, Ford, Rolls-Royce and Siemens.
Companies in the consortium have received orders for more than 10,000 ventilators from the government, although MHRA approval is still pending."

Note that Ford is a US company.
Note also the underlined text.
(Medical Hot Rod Association?)
Government approval might instead be the hurdle.
But I won't presume dysfunctional/nefarious motives as a default.

Click to expand...

1st bold - It may not be that simple.
2nd bold - Correct, bureaucratic as legal hurdles are not the same as dysfunctional/nefarious motives.

Regards
Mikkel

mikkel_the_dane said:

1st bold - It may not be that simple.
2nd bold - Correct, bureaucratic as legal hurdles are not the same as dysfunctional/nefarious motives.

Regards
Mikkel

Click to expand...

Well, I never claimed it was simple.
But I objected to the presumption that US companies would make the claimed objection.

Actually - this used to be my wheelhouse and so I feel I can chime in

Continuous Positive Airway Pressure (CPAP) and its closely linked sibling Bi-level Positive Airway Pressure (BiPAP) have been used for years in early respiratory failure to try and avoid intubation as has been mentioned above. There are some limitations - the patient must be alert and co-operative - a disoriented patient (as from lack of oxygen) can "fight" the equipment or worse tear it off their face. Also it is preferably used on an empty stomach - imagine if someone has to throw up with that on their face - there is a big chance that the material goes straight into the already injured lungs causing a chemical reaction making things worse (aspiration pneumonia). It needs a close watch preferably in the ICU and regular blood gas tests to ensure that the sought-after improvement is happening. While this may ease some of the pressure of the invasive ventilator supply it takes the same burden in terms of ICU beds and qualified medical oversight

FWIW

saw this the other day-

MIT Will Post Free Plans Online for an Emergency Ventilator That Can Be Built for $100

In the World: Breath of life

ManSinha said:

Actually - this used to be my wheelhouse and so I feel I can chime in

Continuous Positive Airway Pressure (CPAP) and its closely linked sibling Bi-level Positive Airway Pressure (BiPAP) have been used for years in early respiratory failure to try and avoid intubation as has been mentioned above. There are some limitations - the patient must be alert and co-operative - a disoriented patient (as from lack of oxygen) can "fight" the equipment or worse tear it off their face. Also it is preferably used on an empty stomach - imagine if someone has to throw up with that on their face - there is a big chance that the material goes straight into the already injured lungs causing a chemical reaction making things worse (aspiration pneumonia). It needs a close watch preferably in the ICU and regular blood gas tests to ensure that the sought after improvement is happening. While this may ease some of the pressure of the invasive ventilator supply it takes the same burden in terms of ICU beds and qualified medical oversight

FWIW

Click to expand...

This could well turn into a world-wide disaster situation. Imagine that ALL hospitals are totally overrun. Folks are left to their own devices (so to speak). Given such dire circumstances, if the major downsides are what you listed, this seems far better than nothing at all, no?

Edit, more info:

This article indicates that a CPAP machine could help someone who's having difficulty breathing due to covid, but the downside they list is that when the patient exhales, they'd be spreading the virus airborne. Again, in a life or death situation, it seems like isolation workarounds would be possible?

CPAP Machines Were Seen As Ventilator Alternatives, But Could Spread COVID-19

crossfire said:

One of my co-workers has been having difficulty getting replacement parts for her CPAP for her sleep disorder. It's not like the company is going to be stuck with a glut of equipment if they ramp up production now for the Covid -19 pandemic.

Click to expand...

I use a CPAP, and have discovered that in the U.S., where everything is about profits, the makers of CPAP machines force obsolescence by refusing to provide repair parts after a given period of time. The idea, of course, is to force people to pay a lot of money for a new machine every 8 years or so, even if the machine they have needs only a very minor repair, and could last for 10 to 15 years.

Money, money, money. It's always about the money.

icehorse said:

This could well turn into a world-wide disaster situation. Imagine that ALL hospitals are totally overrun. Folks are left to their own devices (so to speak). Given such dire circumstances, if the major downsides are what you listed, this seems far better than nothing at all, no?

Click to expand...

Absolutely - it can supplement the existing stock of conventional ventilators - the point I guess I was trying to make is that for the average patient - close medical supervision is necessary to ensure the best outcomes. I am emphasizing that it is both equipment and personnel working in conjunction that may provide the best outcomes.

sun rise said:

Rather than ham-handed attempts to speed the production of horse-pulled buggies, there are alternatives like this one. I hate to write this, but I assume the USA will go into a spasm of "not invented here" plus lobbying on the part of medical device manufacturers to keep this nefarious threat to the medical industry profits out of the US.

Click to expand...

"Horse pulled buggies????" I don't follow. It almost sounds like you're referring to vents as simple, old fashioned devices.
They're not.

A breathing aid that can help keep coronavirus patients out of intensive care has been created in under a week.

University College London engineers worked with clinicians at UCLH and Mercedes Formula One to build the device, which delivers oxygen to the lungs without needing a ventilator.

Continuous Positive Airway Pressure (CPAP) devices are already used in hospitals but are in short supply.

Click to expand...

CPAP is a simple, common therapy used by millions for obstructive sleep apnea. All it does is blow air into your nose/mouth under pressure. In a pinch, it might help someone with labored breathing, but if someone really needs a vent, CPAP; even BiPAP, isn't going to save him.

PureX said:

I use a CPAP, and have discovered that in the U.S., where everything is about profits, the makers of CPAP machines force obsolescence by refusing to provide repair parts after a given period of time. The idea, of course, is to force people to pay a lot of money for a new machine every 8 years or so, even if the machine they have needs only a very minor repair, and could last for 10 to 15 years.

Money, money, money. It's always about the money.

Click to expand...

You answered @Revoltingest 's objection.

PureX said:

I use a CPAP, and have discovered that in the U.S., where everything is about profits, the makers of CPAP machines force obsolescence by refusing to provide repair parts after a given period of time. The idea, of course, is to force people to pay a lot of money for a new machine every 8 years or so, even if the machine they have needs only a very minor repair, and could last for 10 to 15 years.

Money, money, money. It's always about the money.

Click to expand...

My co-worker got her CPAP only a month or so ago and can't get replacement parts!

sun rise said:

You answered @Revoltingest 's objection.

Click to expand...

He did answer.
But I'm more interested in your opinion.
Tis your claim.
And you're more reasonable...less doctrinaire..

Revoltingest said:

He did answer.
But I'm more interested in your opinion.
Tis your claim.
And you're more reasonable...less doctrinaire..

Click to expand...

We've seen drug companies and government working together to keep equal quality but much cheaper drugs out of the US with false claims that people can't trust the same drug that happened to wind up in a Canadian pharmacy rather than in a much higher priced US pharmacy.

Things like this are to be expected in our crony capitalist system.

sun rise said:

We've seen drug companies and government working together to keep equal quality but much cheaper drugs out of the US with false claims that people can't trust the same drug that happened to wind up in a Canadian pharmacy rather than in a much higher priced US pharmacy.

Things like this are to be expected in our crony capitalist system.

Click to expand...

Do you have examples?
But even so, ordinary competitive wrangling never involves threats to
those doing & benefitting from the protectionism. This is a different
situation, wherein those same people could see their own friends &
family die. So every day garden variety behaviors face new pressures.
We must all consider tempering the usual cynicism.

My insurance company won't cover any cost of my CPAP machine unless I get it from a specific supplier that charges $1500 for it. I can buy that exact same machine brand new on line for $600. My insurance will only cover half the cost, so it's actually cheaper for me to buy the machine myself, than through my insurance, except that if I do that, my insurance will not pay to repair it if it needs it, nor will they give me a loaner until it's repaired. So I have to buy the $1300 machine because if it needs to be repaired, I have to have a loaner or I don't sleep. Also, I have no control over the functioning of the machine. To change the settings, I have to go see a specialist, who then sends an order to the medical supplier, who then resets the machine via wifi. I am not allowed to simply buy the machine, adjust the machine's settings as needed, and use it. Instead, I have to go to a specialist who will write a proscription for a sleep test. Go do an overnight sleep test. Then go back to the specialist to discuss the results. Then the specialist sends the order for the machine to the medical provider, who sets the machine and controls it, while I take it home and use it. And then charges me outrageous prices for supplies for it ($140 for a plastic mask, $75 for a plastic hose, etc.). And I have no choice in any of this because the specialists, the test facility, the medical supplier, and even my GP are all in the same insurance "network". And my insurance will not cover anyone not in their network.

So figure the cost of several visits to a specialist, an over night sleep test, a visit to the supplier with an 'orientation class', all completely unnecessary, just to replace my 10-year-old CPAP machine that could have simply been repaired for $150 plus a loaner for a week or so.

Meanwhile our corrupt politicians are all claiming that we can't afford to have socialized health care, while we're already paying twice what every other nation on the planet with socialized health care pays for it. And this is exactly why. The health care conglomerates have bribed our politicians to help them create these corporate fiefdoms that give them complete control over our lives, and allows them to overcharge us for everything we need to live. And it's not just health care. It's housing, energy, transportation, communication, education; it's everything that is essential to our survival in a modern, inter-dependent society.

Revoltingest said:

Do you have examples?
But even so, ordinary competitive wrangling never involves threats to
those doing & benefitting from the protectionism. This is a different
situation, wherein those same people could see their own friends &
family die. So every day garden variety behaviors face new pressures.
We must all consider tempering the usual cynicism.

Click to expand...

I remember large ads in the newspaper, when l lived in Houston around 2000, stating scarily that cut-price drugs from Canada hadn't gone through the rigorous certification process required in the USA - while of course saying nothing about the rigorous certification process drugs go through in Canada.

I thought the implication that Canada was a sort of Wild West of unapproved, dangerous drug manufacture rather amusing. Personally, I'd feel marginally safer getting that sort of thing in Canada than I would in the States.