Apology / Proselytising issues

I would like to apologize for unfair behavior on this forum. I understand that this behavior might have been hurtful to some members, but it was a reaction to an appeal to emotions expressed in a situation where the lines between “seeking people for community activities” and promoting specific religions are especially blurry (“interfaith”). As I’ve been accused of proselytization myself, I acknowledge the perception of such situations might be subjective and not intended. However it is a well-known fact that the manipulation of feelings is a technique often used by members of controversial religions in order to create a positive bias to the group in as a whole.

I think it would be helpful for all if we discussed facts rather than appealing to emotions when dealing with religions that are known to strongly proselytize.

Sirona said:

I think it would be helpful for all if we discussed facts rather than appealing to emotions when dealing with religions that are known to strongly proselytize.

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Only cold facts might make it a bit cold IMO. And there is not need to worry about this issue, as RF has the perfect solution (see last line)

People just must learn, that proselytizing is disrespectful (even a proselytizing thought is still belittling). Once they understand this simple fact, then it's very easy to not do that anymore. But the real problem is, that people who proselytize still believe it's good to do so, and they do not want to accept, that it's a disrespectful act towards others. Even the Bible clearly states, that proselytizing should not be done to them, still many Christians do it to others

What can we do?:
1)"Remind them"
2)Tell them to "use IMHO"
3)"RF Rule#8 + Report Button" (if all other solutions won't work)

Sirona said:

I would like to apologize for unfair behavior on this forum. I understand that this behavior might have been hurtful to some members, but it was a reaction to an appeal to emotions expressed in a situation where the lines between “seeking people for community activities” and promoting specific religions are especially blurry (“interfaith”). As I’ve been accused of proselytization myself, I acknowledge the perception of such situations might be subjective and not intended. However it is a well-known fact that the manipulation of feelings is a technique often used by members of controversial religions in order to create a positive bias to the group in as a whole.

I think it would be helpful for all if we discussed facts rather than appealing to emotions when dealing with religions that are known to strongly proselytize.

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Some good points you mention. "Manipulation of feelings is a technique often used....".
IMO: It's good that those things come out, because we all become aware of our tricks we use, sometimes even unaware. And others can point it out to us, so we can learn from them. We all like to follow the rules as good as we can, don't we?

If we try too hard to control things, certain things which are still subconscious in us, might not come out, and we miss an opportunity to learn
And I know that most RF'ers are more than willing to point out some "learning points" to others.

For me RF, is a great place to learn, esp. about some habits I have, of which I am not aware yet. And I am grateful if others point them out.

Sirona said:

I would like to apologize for unfair behavior on this forum. I understand that this behavior might have been hurtful to some members, but it was a reaction to an appeal to emotions expressed in a situation where the lines between “seeking people for community activities” and promoting specific religions are especially blurry (“interfaith”). As I’ve been accused of proselytization myself, I acknowledge the perception of such situations might be subjective and not intended. However it is a well-known fact that the manipulation of feelings is a technique often used by members of controversial religions in order to create a positive bias to the group in as a whole.

I think it would be helpful for all if we discussed facts rather than appealing to emotions when dealing with religions that are known to strongly proselytize.

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It is often hard to discuss religion and facts at the same time....

Milton Platt said:

It is often hard to discuss religion and facts at the same time....

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It is a fact, that "It is often hard to discuss religion and facts at the same time...."

stvdv said:

proselytizing

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There can be a very large grey area that's very much a question of motivation.

If someone asks a question or makes a statement and I feel I have something to offer, I might offer my perspective which will sometimes include my deeply held beliefs. The motivation here is to share not proselytize but it could be misinterpreted.

Or I might be just waiting for an opportunity to try to convert someone to my beliefs and use some question or statement as an excuse to trot out why someone really must adopt my beliefs which of course is proselytizing.

The words on the page with a single post is not sufficient for me to judge between enthusiasm for a belief and browbeating someone to adopt it. I find that for me that it usually takes time and multiple posts before I'm going to consider a judgement.

sun rise said:

There can be a very large grey area that's very much a question of motivation.

If someone asks a question or makes a statement and I feel I have something to offer, I might offer my perspective which will sometimes include my deeply held beliefs. The motivation here is to share not proselytize but it could be misinterpreted.

Or I might be just waiting for an opportunity to try to convert someone to my beliefs and use some question or statement as an excuse to trot out why someone really must adopt my beliefs which of course is proselytizing.

The words on the page with a single post is not sufficient for me to judge between enthusiasm for a belief and browbeating someone to adopt it. I find that for me that it usually takes time and multiple posts before I'm going to consider a judgement.

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For me, proselytizing has to do with the arrogance to think you know what is best for others (talking about their feelings ... soul level)
It comes close to slavery, is the thought that comes up now. It's really bad.
It's all about arrogance, and with it comes belittling of the other
It's about how/what the proselytizer thinks that counts

I think it's okay if you like it that others adopt your beliefs. The bad part starts when you feel arrogant and you belittle them when they don't adopt your beliefs
For example, I feel happy when someone else would say "from now on Sai Baba is also my guru". There is no problem in this
Because I will also be happy if the same person would say tomorrow "from now on Meher Baba is my guru".
Because I really believe in "Freedom of Religion"

"Freedom of Religion" to me, means "Not judging 1 view (Master) above the other, nor belittling 1 view (Master)"
This "Freedom of Religion" is not possible if people believe in "1 highway for all"

sun rise said:

The motivation here is to share not proselytize but it could be misinterpreted.

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Once Sai Baba was explaining about Gurus
He said "even if you discover that your Guru is a crook, no need to search for another Guru. Just make sure that you don't make the same mistake"
Many times in Hindu books, I read about the Guru becoming the disciple, and the disciple becoming the Guru
There is so much to learn, while alive on this planet, that I learn every day, even from the cat next door
Cats can be great Gurus

Sirona said:

I would like to apologize for unfair behavior on this forum. I understand that this behavior might have been hurtful to some members, but it was a reaction to an appeal to emotions expressed in a situation where the lines between “seeking people for community activities” and promoting specific religions are especially blurry (“interfaith”). As I’ve been accused of proselytization myself, I acknowledge the perception of such situations might be subjective and not intended. However it is a well-known fact that the manipulation of feelings is a technique often used by members of controversial religions in order to create a positive bias to the group in as a whole.

I think it would be helpful for all if we discussed facts rather than appealing to emotions when dealing with religions that are known to strongly proselytize.

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I posted to this thread already, but had an additional thought......
The difference between proselytizing and simply explaining your beliefs has a lot of gray area between them.

stvdv said:

Only cold facts might make it a bit cold IMO. And there is not need to worry about this issue, as RF has the perfect solution (see last line)

People just must learn, that proselytizing is disrespectful (even a proselytizing thought is still belittling). Once they understand this simple fact, then it's very easy to not do that anymore. But the real problem is, that people who proselytize still believe it's good to do so, and they do not want to accept, that it's a disrespectful act towards others. Even the Bible clearly states, that proselytizing should not be done to them, still many Christians do it to others

What can we do?:
1)"Remind them"
2)Tell them to "use IMHO"
3)"RF Rule#8 + Report Button" (if all other solutions won't work)

Click to expand...

I know a lot of people proselytize because they're just excited and want to share their experience, but obviously the way the real world works not everybody's going to be on par in respect of statements you may make.

I think you got the right idea though to maybe put a prefix entailing, "In my humble opinion", or my favorite found in a lot of religious texts that open with, "Thus have I heard".. among other similar openings along those lines.

I think I learned my lesson on proselytizing when I left Christianity and got some insight as to how people viewed it on the other side of the fence. It makes a lot of sense to use disclaimers and also it makes your statements, and mine for that matter, more honest and truthful to others. I tend to think religion is more personal anyways than communal whenever you're talking about it with another person or a group of people like here in the forum.

stvdv said:

Once Sai Baba was explaining about Gurus
He said "even if you discover that your Guru is a crook, no need to search for another Guru. Just make sure that you don't make the same mistake"
Many times in Hindu books, I read about the Guru becoming the disciple, and the disciple becoming the Guru
There is so much to learn, while alive on this planet, that I learn every day, even from the cat next door
Cats can be great Gurus

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I assume the "Sai Baba" you refer to is not the one that lived in Shirdi because he said a guru was essential NEED OF

But I do agree that we can and should learn from everything.

Nowhere Man said:

I think I learned my lesson on proselytizing when I left Christianity and got some insight as to how people viewed it on the other side of the fence.

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Being on RF, seeing and hearing all different views, and especially communicating with each other about views humbled me even more, and make me realize it's not all black and white. And I came to the conclusion ... here on earth there is not 1 universal truth for all (in regard to true religion)

Nowhere Man said:

It makes a lot of sense to use disclaimers and also it makes your statements, and mine for that matter, more honest and truthful to others

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Nowhere Man said:

"Thus have I heard".. among other similar openings along those lines.

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Thank you ... I like this one. Nice and neutral. Not even giving my own opinion, I realize now

Nowhere Man said:

I know a lot of people proselytize because they're just excited and want to share their experience, but obviously the way the real world works not everybody's going to be on par in respect of statements you may make.

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I understand that people, being enthusiastic + excited, share their experiences. I am even okay if someone would keep on babbling 24/7 about Jesus or Buddha or ..., as long as they stay humble and not belittle other views. But only few have this attitude (enthusiasm without superiority feeling)

sun rise said:

I assume the "Sai Baba" you refer to is not the one that lived in Shirdi because he said a guru was essential NEED OF

But I do agree that we can and should learn from everything.

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Oh yes, that must be the same. My Sai Baba also says "Guru is essential". I don't understand why you thought I meant something differently though.
I only said "Sai Baba said there is no need to find another Guru". Maybe you interpreted it as "quit the Guru, but don't look for another one". But that is not what was meant. It just meant "no need to find another Guru ... stick to this one, BUT don't make his mistakes ... use common sense always"

"Guru is essential" does not imply "Follow Guru blindly, and do whatever He says (you can do, but you don't have to)" ... IF Guru says "Go Right", but your "inner Guru" tells you "Go Left", then "Left is Right". Even if Guru gets mad at you. But no need to worry, as you go Left and you left the Guru to go Right !

sun rise said:

I assume the "Sai Baba" you refer to is not the one that lived in Shirdi because he said a guru was essential NEED OF

But I do agree that we can and should learn from everything.

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I know that Shirdi is positive about Guru need.

Guru is especially good to keep you humble, and keep your ego in check.

Sadly, I can't open your link ... get 1 word message "{forbidden}" ... little digging gave me "not logged in" ... was not possible to login, hence I could not read what Shirdi said, but now I am curious and like to read it. I hope you will copy/paste it ... ? You got me curious now

Folks who prosetylise here should be kicked off the forum or at least be made unwelcome by members of staff immediately.

stvdv said:

I know that Shirdi is positive about Guru need.

Guru is especially good to keep you humble, and keep your ego in check.

Sadly, I can't open your link ... get 1 word message "{forbidden}" ... little digging gave me "not logged in" ... was not possible to login, hence I could not read what Shirdi said, but now I am curious and like to read it. I hope you will copy/paste it ... ? You got me curious now

View attachment 38349

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I don't have any issue so here's the page. But I will also note that there are many fake gurus so finding a true guru can take everything one can bring to the search:

NEED OF 'GURU" - - IN SHIRDI SAI BABA'S VIEW

For traversing the path, the help of a good guide (Guru) is absolutely necessary. However learned a man may be, or however deep his study of Vedas and Vedanta (sacred literature) may be, he can not go to his destination safely. If the guide be there to help him, and show him the right way, he would avoid the pitfalls and the wild beasts on the journey and everything will be smooth-sailing.

Baba's experience in this matter, the story which He gave out Himself, is really wonderful, which,. when attended to, will give us faith, devotion and salvation. Baba said "Let us do our prescribed duty and surrender our body, mind and five pranas (life) to the Guru's feet. Guru is God all pervading. To get this conviction, strong unbounded faith is necessary" To stress this point narrated in a story of four learned men who rambled through the woods in the quest of God. in Vanjari words: "Without knowing the woods fully you should not wander at random. If you want to walk through forests and jungles, you should take a guide (GURU) with you.

" Though an Incarnation Himself, He respected a low Vanjari, by accepting his food with the firm belief that "Food is Brahman" and showed how those, who rejected Vanjari's hospitable offer, suffered; and how it was impossible to get Jnana without a Guru.

To stress the need of Guru Baba told another story of His dream "The master (Guru) mentioned above, was of different type. By his grace, realization flashed upon Me of itself, without effort or study. I had not to seek anything, but everything became clear to Me as broad day-light. The Guru alone knows how the topsy-turvy Suspension, "with head down and feet up" .

stvdv said:

For me, proselytizing has to do with the arrogance to think you know what is best for others (talking about their feelings ... soul level)
It comes close to slavery, is the thought that comes up now. It's really bad.
It's all about arrogance, and with it comes belittling of the other
It's about how/what the proselytizer thinks that counts

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I have often seen a few posters do that repeatedly. In fact I (and others) have called them out for their smug arrogance and words like "well we shall see.....won't we?" which to me show an attempt at a threat. Secure as I am in my own beliefs I can laugh it off but unsure about others that may not be.

There is one poster who claims they are sharing when IMHO they are shamelessly proselytizing - when called to account for making declarative statements about other religions - they often leave the thread or debate and go on to trying their luck in other threads.

Thank you very much for copy/paste this text. I love (to read) Shirdi Sai Baba.

sun rise said:

But I will also note that there are many fake gurus so finding a true guru can take everything one can bring to the search:

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I am lucky I have Sai Baba as my Guru. I know He is perfect for me. But true, better be careful, not all Gurus have your best interest at heart

Gu means darkness and Ru means dispelling. Guru means one who dispels darkness

sun rise said:

By his grace, realization flashed upon Me of itself, without effort or study. I had not to seek anything, but everything became clear to Me as broad day-light. The Guru alone knows how the topsy-turvy Suspension, "with head down and feet up" .

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Guru can grant you anything He deems needed, hence I need a Guru, as I don't have that power myself

ManSinha said:

I have often seen a few posters do that repeatedly. In fact I (and others) have called them out for their smug arrogance and words like "well we shall see.....won't we?" which to me show an attempt at a threat. Secure as I am in my own beliefs I can laugh it off but unsure about others that may not be.

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IF this happens, I remember what I read in a Hindu Scripture a long time ago. It was one of the first things I read, when coming to India first time.
Something like this:"Spiritual Ego is the biggest obstacle on the Spiritual path; even God can not cure Spiritual Ego".

Knowing this, I don't try to explain to them (I tried also, but not anymore). I treat such a person as I would treat "Corona Virus" now.

ManSinha said:

There is one poster who claims they are sharing when IMHO they are shamelessly proselytizing - when called to account for making declarative statements about other religions - they often leave the thread or debate and go on to trying their luck in other threads.

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Took me quite a while to find my way in this. I studied Narcissism a bit. 1 type of Narcissists is the "Spiritual Narcissist". That sums it up nice for me.
All experts say about normal narcissists "No Contact is the best contact". I found out the hard way, that the experts were right with this.

ManSinha said:

Secure as I am in my own beliefs I can laugh it off but unsure about others that may not be.

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IMO:
How I see all of this now, is different then when I was in the middle of it. First I was unaware why it upset me so much. But as it upset me, I started expressing myself, and said NO, and put up my borders. Slowly I understood, that this was my lesson, once I put up my borders, they did not bother me anymore.

It all had to do (in my case), with learning to not let others cross my borders (which I did all the time; took a long time to learn this for me)

Below stories helped me to get stronger, and even enjoy this "game" they played, finding my own way slowly:

Great story I remember. Some boys (always boys, girls don't do these things) misbehaving towards Buddha. Buddha remained calm, afterwards His disciples, who were still upset about what had happened, asked Buddha "why you did not get mad". And Buddha calmly replied "when the postman delivers a package and it's not addressed to you, where does the package go?"

And my Master made it even better. Those who treat you bad, will get your negative karma, and you get rid of it (if you don't react).
But He also said "if you see injustice then you must act, otherwise you are as guilty"

So I believe that, acting like a Buddha (not reacting) only works when I am "in my mind" as clean as Buddha = no thoughts