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The Ten Plagues of Egypt- allegorical or historical?

The Ten Plagues of Egypt- allegorical or historical?

  • Allegorical

    Votes: 5 11.6%
  • Historical

    Votes: 13 30.2%
  • Partly historical

    Votes: 6 14.0%
  • We can’t possibly know for certain

    Votes: 4 9.3%
  • This poll doesn’t reflect my thinking

    Votes: 15 34.9%

  • Total voters
    43

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
but I am far less sure of that when it comes to the creation and flood narratives,
Good you mention this. Some stories are indeed way above my understanding (creation and God, being the major ones), whereas other stories are not that weird to me, like the stories with the plagues. Those, I can perfectly relate to.

Once I had a plague of flees once in my house ... lasted ca. 40 days, hence to me, when it comes to the 10 plagues, that to me is very easy to accept (I mean to accept these Bible stories), I could not accept having thousands of flees in my house:D (now smiling, not when the plague was going on). And no poison could kill them. After ca. 6 weeks I was desperate and went on my knees and I prayed to God, to please withdraw this plague (and I made a big sacrifice; in India that's quite common). And it worked, next day "God" withdrew this plague. Big relieve, after ca. 6 weeks

So, I do understand the significance of these 10 plagues. Usually it takes a lot of problems, before humans (at least I), go on their knees, and realize they need help. In that context, I also view those plagues from the Bible. So, I see lots of allegory, but if I got the flees, I won't be surprised they got their fair share of "animals and bugs" too:D.

And how "God" fits in it exactly, I don't know. Like creation, God is also beyond my understanding. But, I do know, as a fact, that praying works. Even animals (at least for flees I know for sure now) have to submit then. I do use the word "God", even though I can't comprehend the Greatness of God. Most important for me is, to experience that it (prayer) works. That's all I need to know right now. Not important to understand it all for me, or be able to prove it all (if this is even possible).
 

Good-Ole-Rebel

Well-Known Member
Thank you. You would be one of a significant minority of Christians who believe the Bible is literal and historical. I would align myself with the Christians who see the Bible as the inspired Word of God, but have no need to take every story as historical and literal though agree that many of the stories are just that.

So if the proof of the Bible is its own testimony, where does it claim to be literally and historically true as you believe?

Your welcome. Perhaps I am a minority in being a Christian.

It is written as historically and literally true. Beginning with (Genesis) it is written in a declaration form. God is. God spoke. God created. And it was so.

There is no claim in the Bible that says it is not written as historical and literal and should be taken as just nice stories. It reads as events and persons that really occur and exist. Of course some don't believe these events or persons were literal. But that is no fault of the Bible. The Bible presents them as historical and literal.

If the historical record found in the Bible is not true, then Jesus was mistaken or a liar. Which would make Him a poor substitute for sin. (John 3:14) "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:" (John 7:19) "Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?" This is just two of many many verses.

But for that matter, if the story of the Exodus is not really true, why should one believe the account concerning Jesus? I mean, it makes a good story. But no need for anyone to believe it really happened. Correct?

You don't have to believe any of it. But it doesn't give any the authority to believe only parts of it and reject the others. Which in reality is rejecting all of it.

Good-Ole-Rebel
 
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Shad

Veteran Member
Excuse my perverse sense of humour but with the coronavirus on the forefront of our minds, I thought a debate about the ten plagues of Egypt might provide a welcome distraction for some of us more scripturally orientated members. I’ve been thinking about plagues after a family member asked me if the coronavirus could be considered a plague. I explained that it couldn’t and the term isn’t used in medicine these days except when discussing the history of medicine long before the advent of the science of microbiology.

It had me thinking about the ten plagues of Egypt. Most of us are familiar with the story but for those who aren’t it forms part of the story of the book of Exodus when Ten disasters are inflicted on Egypt by Yahweh the God of Israel, in order to force the Pharaoh to allow the Israelites to depart from slavery; they serve as "signs and marvels" given by God to answer Pharaoh's taunt that he does not know Yahweh: "The Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD."

The last plague is perhaps the most evocative. In Exodus 11:4-6 it is written;

This is what the LORD says: "About midnight I will go throughout Egypt. Every firstborn son in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn of the slave girl, who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well. There will be loud wailing throughout Egypt—worse than there has ever been or ever will be again."

Before His final plague, God commands Moses to tell the Israelites to mark a lamb’s blood above their doors in order that Yahweh will pass over them (i.e., that they will not be touched by the death of the firstborn). Pharaoh distraught at the carnage orders the Israelites to leave, taking whatever they want.

Adapted from
Plagues of Egypt - Wikipedia

So were the ten plagues of Egypt allegorical or historical? What proofs if any can you use to support your position?

Look up the Thera eruption and Middle Bronze Age Collapse 2. I think the 10 plagues are amalgamation of repeated events over the referenced period of time into an easy to digest narrative which is fiction but contains real world elements such as setting and names.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
In this case I'm inclined to agree with you, but I am far less sure of that when it comes to the creation and flood narratives, which I tend to lean were probably written as allegory to counter the Babylonian creation and flood narratives that had an earlier writing than Genesis, were much more widespread through the region, and were polytheistic.

I would suggest that a (monotheistic) poleminic against ANE cosmology is, almost by definition, non-allegorical.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I would suggest that a (monotheistic) poleminic against ANE cosmology is, almost by definition, non-allegorical.
I'm not certain we're using the same definition of "allegorical" on this since I am applying the term also to taking beliefs from another faith but interjecting alternative specifics. In both the Genesis Creation and Flood accounts, there's a rough parallel with the Babylonian accounts, but the end result as far as important teachings is concerned is clearly quite different.

At shul several years ago, we spent around six Shabbos mornings going through the Babylonian creation account, and then comparing and contrasting that with the Genesis 1:1 account, and the comparisons and contrasts were fascinating-- similar, yet dissimilar if you know what I mean.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
New Excuse my perverse sense of humour but with the coronavirus on the forefront of our minds, I thought a debate about the ten plagues of Egypt
Well, Passover is coming up in a couple of weeks.

I vote historical, and central to Jewish culture.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Excuse my perverse sense of humour but with the coronavirus on the forefront of our minds, I thought a debate about the ten plagues of Egypt might provide a welcome distraction for some of us more scripturally orientated members. I’ve been thinking about plagues after a family member asked me if the coronavirus could be considered a plague. I explained that it couldn’t and the term isn’t used in medicine these days except when discussing the history of medicine long before the advent of the science of microbiology.

It had me thinking about the ten plagues of Egypt. Most of us are familiar with the story but for those who aren’t it forms part of the story of the book of Exodus when Ten disasters are inflicted on Egypt by Yahweh the God of Israel, in order to force the Pharaoh to allow the Israelites to depart from slavery; they serve as "signs and marvels" given by God to answer Pharaoh's taunt that he does not know Yahweh: "The Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD."

The last plague is perhaps the most evocative. In Exodus 11:4-6 it is written;

This is what the LORD says: "About midnight I will go throughout Egypt. Every firstborn son in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn of the slave girl, who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well. There will be loud wailing throughout Egypt—worse than there has ever been or ever will be again."

Before His final plague, God commands Moses to tell the Israelites to mark a lamb’s blood above their doors in order that Yahweh will pass over them (i.e., that they will not be touched by the death of the firstborn). Pharaoh distraught at the carnage orders the Israelites to leave, taking whatever they want.

Adapted from
Plagues of Egypt - Wikipedia

So were the ten plagues of Egypt allegorical or historical? What proofs if any can you use to support your position?
Persons who thought the plagues of Egypt were real events...
Joshua, and the Jews of his day - (Joshua 24:1-8)

Samuel, and the Jews of his day - (1 Samuel 6:1-6; 10:17-19)
Solomon, and the Jews of his day - (1 Kings 8:14-16, 51-53; 2 Kings 17:36)

Asaph, and fellow Jews - (Psalm 78:42-54; 135:8, 9)
Jeremiah and the Jews of his day - (Jeremiah 32:20, 21)

Daniel, and fellow Jews in Babylon, who returned to their land, and restored Jerusalem, along with Nehemiah and the Jews of that time. - (Daniel 9:15)

Amos and contemporary prophets - (Amos 4:10; (Micah 6:4)

Disciple of Jesus - Philip, and fellow Christian disciples - (Acts 7)

Apostle Paul believed these according to scripture (Romans 9:17, 18; Hebrews 8:8, 9)

I too, believe the scriptures to be true - the inspired word of God. Hence, I believe that for me to claim to believe the scriptures, and at the same time, claim the plagues to be allegorical, creates a contradiction of claims, which would reveal either a gross ignorance, or serious hypocrisy, since I would be demonstrating disbelief in what is written.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
On another forum a similar thread was also started today:

"Were The Plagues In Pharaoh's Egypt (Exodus), Literal Or Symbolic?"

The OP doesn't relate it to the corona, though.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I voted "allegorical" although the correct term would be "mythical". The whole story of the captivity and exodus is untraceable not only in Egyptian records but also in the archeology of the region, so it's not history. A myth is a story told to make a point — like the parables told by Jesus. Two historical facts — the Egyptian rule over Canaan in the Bronze Age and the expulsion of the Hyksos from Egypt, provided the basic framework, but the point of the story is to define the Israelites as a people and to define their relationship with their tribal god, Yahweh.
This ties in nicely as a framework with @Jayhawker Soule post before yours. I particularly appreciate his capitalization of the word myth to mean something greater than just a type of story. It would be Story with a capital S, versus a story. It is the nature of the narrative of a people that each can identify themselves with. It's a living breathing organic thing.

It's the same thing really on our own personal level with the narratives we tell ourselves about ourselves. We are editors of the narrative of history in our self-reflections. "Who am I," gets identified with that story arc we have created. The actuality of those things happening exactly as we've told ourselves is point of great fallacy in believing that everything we remember was literally true. Memory is simply not that accurate at all. So we "believe" that "history" of our lives and the many meanings and values we identify with those memories. It is the personal myth that we all have.

And so I see the cultural myth to be the individual's myths adding to the collective Myth. And then our personal myth and culture myth become our collective Myth. It is how we see ourselves in the world, what is our tribe, who is "our people"? This was an early advance in civilization moving away from bloodlines and kinship systems, to an ethno-identification. It is a fiction loosely created around bloodlines and shared Narrative. This evolved later on into the fiction of Nation States, and so forth.

Each and everyone one of them is fused together by their Mythologies. It's what binds us together in our conscious minds. "Who are my people? Who am I?"

Personally, I find this, like many OT myths, deeply disturbing. We are told that Yahweh "hardened the pharaoh's heart" — so, if he could do that, why didn't he do the opposite and encourage the pharaoh to let them go? Because he wanted to demonstrate his power by sending plagues. As a myth, this may only tell us what the israelites believed about their god, rather than the truth, but if it's inaccurate, why didn't he correct them? It's like Job, where Yahweh tortures a man to win a bet. Either this is a very unpleasant god, or one so weak that he can't correct misconceptions about himself.
This dilemma you present here begins with a presupposition that the image of God you see on the pages of scripture, actually, literally, scientifically even, somehow are not themselves metaphors. That assumes the literalist view of these things as factual descriptions, rather than symbolic and representative of an aspect of man's ideas of God on its pages. The mistake comes when one assumes if it is not literally true, or if you see some contradiction of logic, that means there is nothing worthy to see there, or worse that's it's 'just a lie'.

I personally think that can be an easy failing of those exiting from literalist religious experience. It is still seeing in somewhat binary terms. In mythic-literal modes of faith, the truth or meaning of the story is fused with facts of the story. But in exiting that stage of faith there is a transition away from that mode of finding truth and meaning, into a rational, fact-based mode finding truth and meaning.

Contradictions in the story, can be understood to mean that the story is not factual, and therefore the meaning of the story is at risk. The baby and the bathwater are one and the same, and either stand or fall to the mythic-literal mind, as well at the emerging rational mind. It is still learning how to master being able to find the meaning of the story, without the details of the story needing to factual or withstand critical analysis.

Eventually, meaning becomes more abstracted, rather than fused to the facts. We create meaning, and always have. And these are our Stories about the great Mystery of our being. It is meaning projected on Myth, to tell us who we are.
 

MJ Bailey

Member
I believe both can be intertwined. The Egyptian plagues have definite scientific reasons for their happening as stated by Live Science;
The Science of the 10 Plagues | Live Science
But the reasoning and timing of the plagues could very well have a more in depth meaning in which science does not yet recognize, and may never recognize;) The covid19 may or may not have the same basis as the plagues; all we can really do is hope for the best and use our resources wisely.
BTW, I don't understand why one would doubt something in which is not only possible but probable without doing proper research first
 
Last edited:

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I believe both can be intertwined. The Egyptian plagues have definite scientific reasons for their happening as stated by Live Science;
The Science of the 10 Plagues | Live Science
But the reasoning and timing of the plagues could very well have a more in depth meaning in which science does not yet recognize, and may never recognize;) The covid19 may or may not have the same basis as the plagues; all we can really do is hope for the best and use our resources wisely.
But I do believe the most driving question is why would God supposedly have caused this by "hardening Pharaoh's heart", and this simply doesn't make one iota of sense to me? For me, I have no problem with rejecting that as I've never been a believer in scriptural inerrancy.
 

leov

Well-Known Member
Excuse my perverse sense of humour but with the coronavirus on the forefront of our minds, I thought a debate about the ten plagues of Egypt might provide a welcome distraction for some of us more scripturally orientated members. I’ve been thinking about plagues after a family member asked me if the coronavirus could be considered a plague. I explained that it couldn’t and the term isn’t used in medicine these days except when discussing the history of medicine long before the advent of the science of microbiology.

It had me thinking about the ten plagues of Egypt. Most of us are familiar with the story but for those who aren’t it forms part of the story of the book of Exodus when Ten disasters are inflicted on Egypt by Yahweh the God of Israel, in order to force the Pharaoh to allow the Israelites to depart from slavery; they serve as "signs and marvels" given by God to answer Pharaoh's taunt that he does not know Yahweh: "The Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD."

The last plague is perhaps the most evocative. In Exodus 11:4-6 it is written;

This is what the LORD says: "About midnight I will go throughout Egypt. Every firstborn son in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn of the slave girl, who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well. There will be loud wailing throughout Egypt—worse than there has ever been or ever will be again."

Before His final plague, God commands Moses to tell the Israelites to mark a lamb’s blood above their doors in order that Yahweh will pass over them (i.e., that they will not be touched by the death of the firstborn). Pharaoh distraught at the carnage orders the Israelites to leave, taking whatever they want.

Adapted from
Plagues of Egypt - Wikipedia

So were the ten plagues of Egypt allegorical or historical? What proofs if any can you use to support your position?
Egyptian Mystical Schools. They are Gnostic at the base. It is typical Gnostic style to speak through semi- truth stories, myth mixed with real events in nature. Those stories are not meant to be true history or true phtsics, they are meant ti convey certain thoughts.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Excuse my perverse sense of humour but with the coronavirus on the forefront of our minds, I thought a debate about the ten plagues of Egypt might provide a welcome distraction for some of us more scripturally orientated members. I’ve been thinking about plagues after a family member asked me if the coronavirus could be considered a plague. I explained that it couldn’t and the term isn’t used in medicine these days except when discussing the history of medicine long before the advent of the science of microbiology.

It had me thinking about the ten plagues of Egypt. Most of us are familiar with the story but for those who aren’t it forms part of the story of the book of Exodus when Ten disasters are inflicted on Egypt by Yahweh the God of Israel, in order to force the Pharaoh to allow the Israelites to depart from slavery; they serve as "signs and marvels" given by God to answer Pharaoh's taunt that he does not know Yahweh: "The Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD."

The last plague is perhaps the most evocative. In Exodus 11:4-6 it is written;

This is what the LORD says: "About midnight I will go throughout Egypt. Every firstborn son in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn of the slave girl, who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well. There will be loud wailing throughout Egypt—worse than there has ever been or ever will be again."

Before His final plague, God commands Moses to tell the Israelites to mark a lamb’s blood above their doors in order that Yahweh will pass over them (i.e., that they will not be touched by the death of the firstborn). Pharaoh distraught at the carnage orders the Israelites to leave, taking whatever they want.

Adapted from
Plagues of Egypt - Wikipedia

So were the ten plagues of Egypt allegorical or historical? What proofs if any can you use to support your position?
Since Baha'is believe they have the latest message from God, I think it is important to know what Baha'is believe. I personally doubt they story is literally and historically true and accurate. But I know that is important for some Jews and some Christians to believe it is. And I assume Baha'is will say it is allegorical. If so, what is the symbolic meaning of the story? And, another issue for Baha'is, literal believing Christians believe that the religion of Egypt was false... that they believed in false gods. What do Baha'is believe about the religion of the ancient Egyptians? Thanks.
 
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