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Stretching the meaning of the word “instantly” and JWs

danieldemol

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
My thoughts on the “scarlet beast of revelation-17” article from post#21 are essentially that the shoe does not fit the U.N.

Take for example the first point:
  1. ‘A political entity. The scarlet-colored beast has “seven heads” that are said to represent “seven mountains” and “seven kings,” or ruling powers. (Revelation 17:9, 10) Mountains and beasts are used in the Bible as symbols of governments.—Jeremiah 51:24, 25;Daniel 2:44, 45; 7:17, 23.’

    The Bible specifically says seven kings, but the JW document does not even attempt to list the seven kings that support the U.N.

    Instead it adds the words not found in the Bible, “or ruling powers”, but this raises questions, such as doesn’t the all-knowing Jehovah know the difference between a “king” and a “ruling power” without a king? And wouldn’t it have been easy for an allknowing Jehova to simply say “seven ruling powers” instead of “seven kings” if that’s what Jehova meant?

    In any case the article lists 193 member states (each of which is run by a “ruling power”) and not seven ruling powers.


 
Deeje

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
LightofTruth said:
What, are you serious?

Eze 16:1 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Eze 16:2 Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations,

Eze 16:22 And in all thine abominations and thy whoredoms thou hast not remembered the days of thy youth, when thou wast naked and bare, and wast polluted in thy blood.

You really don't know the prophecies which speak of Jerusalem in the latter days, do you? I think not.
Click to expand...

Speaking of those who do not know about the prophesies regarding "Jerusalem in the latter days".....Can you please answer my questions....?
Deeje said:
What "beast" has Jerusalem ever ridden? What is the "sexual immorality" committed by her, and how is she "the mother of the prostitutes and of the disgusting things of the earth"? What are the "many waters" upon which she sits? John answers....
Click to expand...

Deeje said:
Since when has Jerusalem had a "kingdom over the kings of the earth" holding any kind of authority over "peoples, crowds, nations and tongues"? The Jews have been dominated by Gentile nations since the days of Zedekiah. She exercised no power over anyone.
Click to expand...

Jerusalem (which pictures Israel) has never been in those situations described in Revelation.
The Revelation is about "New Jerusalem", not the old one. (Revelation 21:1-4)
Literal Israel was "abandoned" as Jesus said. (Matthew 23:37-39) She will never be recognized by God again as his nation, because she forced him to choose a new nation (Matthew 21:33-46)......but individuals out of fleshly Israel can "bless the one who came in Jehovah's name" by accepting him as Messiah. (Matthew 23:37-39)

Some additional questions for you.....

What is this prostitute guilty of?
What is the fornication of which she is guilty?
With whom is she committing "fornication"?
Who is mourning her demise and why?
 
Deeje

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
danieldemol said:
My thoughts on the “scarlet beast of revelation-17” article from post#21 are essentially that the shoe does not fit the U.N.

Take for example the first point:
  1. ‘A political entity. The scarlet-colored beast has “seven heads” that are said to represent “seven mountains” and “seven kings,” or ruling powers. (Revelation 17:9, 10) Mountains and beasts are used in the Bible as symbols of governments.—Jeremiah 51:24, 25;Daniel 2:44, 45; 7:17, 23.’

    The Bible specifically says seven kings, but the JW document does not even attempt to list the seven kings that support the U.N.

    Instead it adds the words not found in the Bible, “or ruling powers”, but this raises questions, such as doesn’t the all-knowing Jehovah know the difference between a “king” and a “ruling power” without a king? And wouldn’t it have been easy for an allknowing Jehova to simply say “seven ruling powers” instead of “seven kings” if that’s what Jehova meant?

    In any case the article lists 193 member states (each of which is run by a “ruling power”) and not seven ruling powers.
Click to expand...
It would be helpful to understand the Revelation as John wrote it. He said it was presented "in signs"....that is in symbolisms.
Kings represent kingdoms...i.e. a ruler and his domain, (a "king" and his "dom"ain)....nations.

The numbers 7 and 10 have significance in the Bible.

7 Signifies divinely determined completeness, as to Jehovah’s purposes.....or to Satan’s.

10 Signifies allness or completeness in a physical way, pertaining to things on earth.

You ask these sorts of questions and I see a complete lack of understanding of what the Bible teaches. The Bible cannot just be read...it has to be taught as a whole. You have to understand that it is one story from start to finish, but the understanding was not given all at once...it has been progressive down through time. As we approach the foretold end of this "age", God has revealed what we need to know concerning what is to happen next. The whole of the sign that Jesus gave to indicate the approach of God's Kingdom, is now fulfilled.....the finale is just ahead.

The short rule of the last ruling entity will herald the greatest tribulation in mankind's history. The angel said: “The ten horns that you saw mean ten kings, who have not yet received a kingdom, but they do receive authority as kings one hour with the wild beast.” (Revelation 17:12) The number ten represents completeness as to things on earth, so we believe that these horns symbolize all the governmental powers earth wide that support the wild beast for a short time (“one hour”)

As the angel told John, all the “ten horns” give “power and authority to the wild beast.” (Revelation 17:13) In fact, without support from the governments represented by the heads and the horns, the beast would be powerless. Why? Because it is merely an image. (Revelation 13:14) Like all images, it is powerless in itself. (Isaiah 44:14-17) Any life that it has comes from its supporters. (Revelation 13:15)
The UN has never had any real power....but the nations will unite and give it sweeping powers. its promise of "peace and security" will ring hollow.

The Kingdom will "come" (ready or not) just as Jesus said and only then, can God's will be "done on earth as it is in heaven"......the King of God's kingdom will eliminate all opposers, and take faithful and obedient mankind back to what Adam lost in the beginning.....everlasting life in paradise on earth. God's kingdom will guarantee it. We each have the choice to be on God's side or not. The trouble is that a deceitful mimic is loose in the world blinding people to the truth.....but he can't blind those whose eyes have been opened by God. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4; John 6:65)
 
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danieldemol

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Deeje said:
...The numbers 7 and 10 have significance in the Bible.

7 Signifies divinely determined completeness, as to Jehovah’s purposes.....or to Satan’s.

10 Signifies allness or completeness in a physical way, pertaining to things on earth....
Click to expand...
Do you have a Bible quote that says this or is it just something extra-Biblical added by JWs to stretch a shoe that doesn’t fit to make it fit?
 
McBell

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
Deeje said:
There is a specific proclamation that has not yet been made.....its coming...wait for it. We are.
Click to expand...

Deeje said:
This is no empty proclamation but something that is offered to humanity as a global solution to all our problems.....wait for it...its coming.
Click to expand...

Deeje said:
You can believe whatever you wish....we are seeing the end times unfolding right before our eyes, but this cry of peace and security is specific.....you'll see what it means by "sudden destruction" being instantly upon them like labor pains in a pregnant woman. I have had those and I know what it means....when its time....its time.
Click to expand...


And you say that with such authority.....LOL
 
cataway

cataway

Well-Known Member
danieldemol said:
Do you have a Bible quote that says this or is it just something extra-Biblical added by JWs to stretch a shoe that doesn’t fit to make it fit?
Click to expand...
do you mean to say you don't know about 7 &10 ? then you also don't know about 2,3 ,4,6 ,12 ,40 ,70. all significant numbers in understanding the bible
 
danieldemol

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
cataway said:
do you mean to say you don't know about 7 &10 ? then you also don't know about 2,3 ,4,6 ,12 ,40 ,70. all significant numbers in understanding the bible
Click to expand...
This sounds like dodging the question to me, do you have a quote for 7 and 10 or not?
 
cataway

cataway

Well-Known Member
7 is used 735 times the number 7 is the foundation of God's word.
Seven is the number of completeness and perfection
the number 10 is used 242 times. 10 signifies testimony, law, responsibility and the completeness of order.

you are saying you have read the bible and you have never seen the numbers 7 &10 ?

what about this number 6 ?
 
Deeje

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
danieldemol said:
Do you have a Bible quote that says this or is it just something extra-Biblical added by JWs to stretch a shoe that doesn’t fit to make it fit?
Click to expand...

As @cataway has mentioned, these are numbers used throughout the Bible symbolically.

The number 6 is also symbolic for these times. It signifies imperfection, something not normal, monstrous. (Revelation 13:18)

If you study the Bible as we do, you have the whole book to determine your beliefs, not just bits here and there and people scratching their heads wondering what they all mean. Nothing means much in isolation....but in context with the rest of the scriptures, its one story, rapidly approaching its conclusion. These are awful times, but for us not unexpected.....its what comes after this that we are looking forward to. (Revelation 21:2-4)
 
danieldemol

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
cataway said:
you are saying you have read the bible and you have never seen the numbers 7 &10 ?
Click to expand...
Nope, I’m saying I have not seen anywhere in the Bible where 7 and 10 refer only to symbolic completeness, and not 7 and 10 themselves.

For example would you say that we don’t know how many days in a Biblical week because the number 7 refers to completeness, and thus we can only say that there are a complete number of days in a week and not 7 days in a week? Would you say there could be 193 days in a week because it only refers to completeness?

Find me a Bible quote which says the numbers 7 and 10 do not refer to the numbers 7 and 10 please?
 
danieldemol

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Deeje said:
As @cataway has mentioned, these are numbers used throughout the Bible symbolically.
Click to expand...
Then it should not be a problem for you to find a quote demonstrating that the numbers 7 and 10 do not refer to 7 and 10 as per my comments to cataway in post #32 above?
 
danieldemol

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
cataway said:
you mean you have never read the book REVELATION !
Click to expand...
This is circular logic, to say that the book of revelation means 7 and 10 are symbolic because in revelation 7 and 10 are symbolic. Find a quote from revelation saying 7 and 10 do not refer to 7 and 10 and your job is done
 
Deeje

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
danieldemol said:
Then it should not be a problem for you to find a quote demonstrating that the numbers 7 and 10 do not refer to 7 and 10 as per my comments to cataway in post #32 above?
Click to expand...

Symbolic Numbers in Revelation

Number Symbolic Meaning

2 Signifies solidly confirming a matter.

(Revelation 11:3, 4; compare Deuteronomy 17:6.)

3 Denotes emphasis. Also indicates intensity.

(Revelation 4:8; 8:13; 16:13, 19)

4 Signifies universalness or foursquareness in symmetry.

(Revelation 4:6; 7:1, 2; 9:14; 20:8; 21:16)

6 Signifies imperfection, something not normal, monstrous.

(Revelation 13:18; compare 2 Samuel 21:20.)

7 Signifies divinely determined completeness, as to

Jehovah’s purposes or to Satan’s.

(Revelation 1:4, 12, 16; 4:5; 5:1, 6; 10:3, 4; 12:3)

10 Signifies allness or completeness in a physical way,

as to things on earth.

(Revelation 2:10; 12:3; 13:1; 17:3, 12, 16)

12 Signifies a divinely constituted organization either in

the heavens or on the earth.

(Revelation 7:5-8; 12:1; 21:12, 16; 22:2)

24 Signifies Jehovah’s abundant (doubled) organizational arrangement. (Revelation 4:4)

Some numbers mentioned in Revelation are to be understood as literal. Often, the context helps to determine this. (See Revelation 7:4, 9; 11:2, 3; 12:6, 14; 17:3, 9-11; 20:3-5.)

Jesus Comes With Encouragement — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

What about the number 666?

"Six Repeated Three Times—Why?

In the Scriptures, certain numbers have symbolic significance. The number seven, for example, is often used to symbolize that which is complete, or perfect, in God’s eyes. For instance, God’s creative week comprises seven ‘days,’ or extended time periods, during which God completely accomplishes his creative purpose regarding the earth. (Genesis 1:3–2:3) God’s “sayings” are like silver that has been “clarified seven times,” thus perfectly refined. (Psalm 12:6; Proverbs 30:5, 6) The leper Naaman was told to bathe seven times in the Jordan River, after which he was completely healed.—2 Kings 5:10, 14.

Six is one short of seven. Would it not be a fitting symbol of something imperfect, or defective, in God’s eyes? Yes, indeed! (1 Chronicles 20:6, 7) Moreover, six repeated three times, as 666, powerfully stresses that imperfection. That this is the correct view is supported by the fact that 666 is “a human number,” as we have considered. Thus, the beast’s record, its “human number,” and the number 666 itself all point to one unmistakable conclusion—gross shortcoming and failure in the eyes of Jehovah.

The portrayal of the beast’s deficiencies calls to mind what was said about King Belshazzar of ancient Babylon. Through Daniel, Jehovah said to that ruler: “You have been weighed in the balances and have been found deficient.” That very night Belshazzar was killed, and the mighty Babylonian Empire fell. (Daniel 5:27, 30) Likewise, God’s judgment of the political beast and of those with its mark spells the end of that entity and its supporters. In this instance, however, God will eradicate not just one political system but every vestige of human rule. (Daniel 2:44; Revelation 19:19, 20) How important, therefore, that we avoid having the deadly mark of the beast!"

Identifying the Wild Beast and Its Mark — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
 
danieldemol

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
cataway said:
and now danieldemol will change the condition of the test
Click to expand...
Why would I when Deeje failed to give a single reference which demonstrates what I asked?

I went through every one of Deeje’s 7 and 10 references and not one of them refutes that it refers to the actual numbers 7 and 10 AND completion (as opposed to what Deeje said that they refer to completion NOT the numbers 7 and 10)

Look at her first group of references related to number 7: (Revelation 1:4, 12, 16) Revelation 1 begins "John to the seven congregations+ that are in the province of Asia", 1:11 says, "saying: “What you see, write in a scroll and send it to the seven congregations: in Ephʹe·sus,+ in Smyrʹna,+ in Perʹga·mum,+ in Thy·a·tiʹra,+ in Sarʹdis,+ in Philadelphia,+ and in La·o·di·ceʹa.”+" and finishes with 1:20 "As for the sacred secret of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars mean the angels of the seven congregations, and the seven lampstands mean the seven congregations" in other words, verse 4, 12 and 16 refer to completeness AND the number 7, not to completion in the abscence of the actual numbers.

Then consider this portion of Deeje's quote
Deeje said:
...In the Scriptures, certain numbers have symbolic significance. The number seven, for example, is often used to symbolize that which is complete, or perfect, in God’s eyes. For instance, God’s creative week comprises seven ‘days,’ or extended time periods, during which God completely accomplishes his creative purpose regarding the earth. (Genesis 1:3–2:3) God’s “sayings” are like silver that has been “clarified seven times,” thus perfectly refined. (Psalm 12:6; Proverbs 30:5, 6) The leper Naaman was told to bathe seven times in the Jordan River, after which he was completely healed.—2 Kings 5:10, 14...
Click to expand...
In other words, we know that 7 does not just refer to completeness, there actually are 7 days in the week, the silver was not refined once nor was it refined 193 times, it was refined "seven times". Again with the number of times the Leper Naaman was told to bathe in the river, he was not told to bathe a "complete" number of times, he was told to bathe "seven" times, thus the scriptures refer to 7 AND completion. Which demonstrates my point nicely.
 
Deeje

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
danieldemol said:
Why would I when Deeje failed to give a single reference which demonstrates what I asked?

I went through every one of Deeje’s 7 and 10 references and not one of them refutes that it refers to the actual numbers 7 and 10 AND completion (as opposed to what Deeje said that they refer to completion NOT the numbers 7 and 10)

Look at her first group of references related to number 7: (Revelation 1:4, 12, 16) Revelation 1 begins "John to the seven congregations+ that are in the province of Asia", 1:11 says, "saying: “What you see, write in a scroll and send it to the seven congregations: in Ephʹe·sus,+ in Smyrʹna,+ in Perʹga·mum,+ in Thy·a·tiʹra,+ in Sarʹdis,+ in Philadelphia,+ and in La·o·di·ceʹa.”+" and finishes with 1:20 "As for the sacred secret of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars mean the angels of the seven congregations, and the seven lampstands mean the seven congregations" in other words, verse 4, 12 and 16 refer to completeness AND the number 7, not to completion in the abscence of the actual numbers.

Then consider this portion of Deeje's quote

In other words, we know that 7 does not just refer to completeness, there actually are 7 days in the week, the silver was not refined once nor was it refined 193 times, it was refined "seven times". Again with the number of times the Leper Naaman was told to bathe in the river, he was not told to bathe a "complete" number of times, he was told to bathe "seven" times, thus the scriptures refer to 7 AND completion. Which demonstrates my point nicely.
Click to expand...

OMGoddness....not every number reference is symbolic....many of them are literal. A knowledge of scripture will tell you which is which.

The number 7 in connection with Naaman was to demonstrate his complete obedience to God's command. His pride almost cost him the cure he so desired.

A little background information is helpful here....
"Naaman was a leper, and while the Syrians did not demand his isolation as Jehovah’s law required of lepers in Israel, yet to learn how he might be cured of this loathsome disease was indeed welcome news. Such news came to him through his wife’s Israelite slave girl who told of a prophet in Samaria who could cure leprosy. Immediately Naaman set out for Samaria with a letter of introduction from Ben-hadad II. However, Israelite King Jehoram, after receiving him with coolness and suspicion, sent him to Elisha. Elisha did not meet Naaman personally but, instead, had his servant tell Naaman to bathe seven times in the Jordan River. His pride hurt, and apparently feeling he had unceremoniously and fruitlessly been run from one place to another, Naaman turned away in a rage. Had his attendants not reasoned with him and pointed out the reasonableness of the instructions, Naaman would have returned to his country still a leper. As it turned out, he bathed the seven times in the Jordan and was miraculously cleansed, the only leper whom Elisha was instrumental in curing.—2Ki 5:1-14; Lu 4:27."
Naaman — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

Don't wait for a penny to drop on these things because no one will understand anything unless they have been invited by God to do so. (John 6:44; 65)

It is God who opens hearts to his truth.....Those who wish to hold to doing things "their" way, or wanting God to fit "their" criteria, will be permitted to hold whatever delusion they have invented for themselves. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12) It will get them nowhere.

Regardless of how we view ourselves, it's how God views us that counts. There are only "sheep and goats" in this world at the end, and we are all in one category or the other.....Jesus knows those who belongs to him....but we have to know him too, and believe all that he has taught us about his Father.

People run away with the idea that they are choosing God.....but the reality is, he is choosing us. He has a criteria and we have to match it....one of them is the ability to believe what the Bible says.....to have faith in all that is written in it. Faith in God's word is faith in its author. Faith in Jesus Christ as savior, is faith in the one who sent him. But even people who believe that they have faith in God, are not guaranteed salvation. (Matthew 7:21-23)
 
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