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Deuteronomy 32:8

Jayhawker Soule

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I was recently asked about my username.

Also recently, I took the liberty of purchasing the new and widely acclaimed Robert Alter translation of the "Five Books of Moses".
for example:...

Judith Shulevitz - The New York Times
Alter's magisterial translation deserves to become the version in which many future generations encounter this strange and inexhaustible book.​
It is a beautiful volume, and I thought some might appreciate it's translation and commentary on Deuteronomy 32:8-9
KJV

When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.

For the LORD'S portion [is] his people; Jacob [is] the lot of his inheritance.

Alter

When Elyon gave estates to nations,
when He split up the sons of man,
He set out the boundaries of peoples,
by the number of the sundry gods.

Yes, the Lord's portion is His people
Jacob the parcel of His estate​
And the commentary:
Elyon (the High One) is the sky god of the Canaanite pantheon, who appears to have been assimilated into biblical monotheism as an epithet for the God of Israel (see the comment on Genesis 14:19-20). The use of this designation here probably reflects the antiquity of the poem.

The Masoretic Text here reads lemispar beney yisra'el, "by the number of the sons of Israel." It is hard to make much sense of that reading, though traditional exegetes try to do that by noting that Israel/Jacob had seventy male descendants when he went down to Egypt and that there are, at least proverbially, seventy nations. This translation adopts the reading of the text found at Qumran (which seems close to the Hebrew text used by the Septuagint translators): lemispar beney 'elohim. This phrase, which appears to reflect a very early stage in the evolution of biblical monotheism, caused later transmitters of the text theological discomfort and was probably deliberately changed in the interests of piety. In the older world-picture, registered in a variety of biblical texts, God is surrounded by a celestial entourage of divine beings or lesser deities, beney 'elim or benet 'elohim, who are nevertheless subordinate to the supreme God. The Song of Moses assumes that God, in allotting portions of the earth to the various peoples, also allowed each people its own lesser deity. Compare Moses's remark about the astral deities in Deuteronomy 4:19.​
This information is available elsewhere (e.g., Tov, Cross), but it's wonderfully helpful to have it integrated into the commentary of a well-respected translation.

If you're at all interested, Alter's The Five Books of Moses is, in my opinion, well worth owning.
 
P

precept

Member
Elyon (the High One) is the sky god of the Canaanite pantheon, who appears to have been assimilated into biblical monotheism as an epithet for the God of Israel (see the comment on Genesis 14:19-20). The use of this designation here probably reflects the antiquity of the poem.
Click to expand...
And here Alter "fell on his own sword". "Elyon" and his compatriot gods are not even existing in the minds of any of the descendants the Pagan Canaanites who have survived and presently reside in those lands. How then would Alter explain the demise of "Elyon" and his compatriot gods, from whom the Israelites learned the concept monotheism, when in your rendering of "Elyon", you have "Elyon" as: and I quote:
He set out the boundaries of peoples, by the number of the sundry gods.
Click to expand...
?

If, as you say, the Israelites borrowed the concept of monotheism from the Canaanites' Elyon....How could they! seeing Elyon was a polytheist? And also seeing that the Israelites were but a small nation compared to the numerous nations of the Canaanites...How could such a small Israelite nation replace and or influence so greatly the religious beliefs of the numerous Canaanite nations who were all hostile to the small Israelite nation?

The true answer is found in Deuteronomy chapter 31----The true version!
 
Jayhawker Soule

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Precept, have you read any extra-Biblical scholarship whatsoever on early West Semitic culture and/or Israelite ethnogenesis? The Alter translation is in line with the earliest Biblical text (and, as a matter of fact, with the Targum as well). It is also clearly anticipated in the scholarship of the pre-eminent Emanuel Tov, perhaps the foremost expert in Septuagint studies and a highly respected DSS expert. The idea of you taking on Alter is somewhere between laughable and obscene.
 
P

precept

Member
Precept, have you read any extra-Biblical scholarship whatsoever on early West Semitic culture and/or Israelite ethnogenesis? The Alter translation is in line with the earliest Biblical text (and, as a matter of fact, with the Targum as well). It is also clearly anticipated in the scholarship of the pre-eminent Emanuel Tov, perhaps the foremost expert in Septuagint studies and a highly respected DSS expert. The idea of you taking on Alter is somewhere between laughable and obscene. Get over youself.
Click to expand...
Casting aspersions doesn't absolve you or your mentor, Alter from the obvious!

Your mentor can't be espousing two opposite positions whle claiming to to be the owner of both.

Your mentor can't lay claim to be the exporter of monotheism to the Israelite nation; when at the same time, "Elyon" head god of the Canaanite nations,whom the Israelites adopted as "their" god, was polytheistic.

In other words, you and your mentor claim that "Elyon" was singularly chosen by the Israelite nation, to the exclusion of all the other gods.[this is only true if the Israelite nation was monotheistic]

Yet despite your alluding to monotheism as the singular belief of the Israelite nation, you claim that Alter believed the Israelites were polytheistic...and I quote.."
When Elyon gave estates to nations,
when He split up the sons of man,
He set out the boundaries of peoples,
by the number of the sundry gods.
Click to expand...


In case you miss my point!....For you and your mentor's argument to stand..you must claim that the Israelites borrowed or "mimmicked" as you put it "polytheism"! not "monotheism" from the ancient Canaanite nations.

Hence your argument falls!....because by your own admission...and verified by the scripture, the Israelite nation was founded on monotheism.



precept
 
Jayhawker Soule

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
precept said:
Casting aspersions doesn't absolve you or your mentor, Alter from the obvious!
Click to expand...
Oh my! :biglaugh:

Again, have you read any extra-Biblical scholarship whatsoever on early West Semitic culture and/or Israelite ethnogenesis?
 
jewscout

jewscout

Religious Zionist
Thanks Deut. i'll put it on my wish list this year!
What do you think of the Stone edition of the Chumash? I have that one and the Stone edition Tanach at home.
 
Jayhawker Soule

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
It is fully equivalent to the 1917 JPS. As such, it can be presumed to be representative of the standard Masoretic text. I suspect the the Alter translation is both more poetic and more accurate.
 
E

Ernestine

Member
Elyon is not an epithet for the God of Israel, "Jehovah". The writings of Philo, a Phoenician scholar who lived at the close of the first century, religious literature discovered at Ras Shamra on the north coast of Syria, and religious artifacts found in the Canaanite territory deduce that the head of the Canaanite pantheon of gods and goddesses was the god "El". El's personage was overshadowed by the god Baal and by the goddesses Astarte, Asherah and Anath. Philo presents El as a cruel, bloodthirsty tyrant who dethroned his own father and castrated him, killed his own son and decapitated his daughter.
 
L

Lightkeeper

Well-Known Member
Deut. 32.8 said:
I was recently asked about my username.



Also recently, I took the liberty of purchasing the new and widely acclaimed Robert Alter translation of the "Five Books of Moses".
for example:...


Judith Shulevitz - The New York Times
Alter's magisterial translation deserves to become the version in which many future generations encounter this strange and inexhaustible book.
​
It is a beautiful volume, and I thought some might appreciate it's translation and commentary on Deuteronomy 32:8-9
KJV


When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.

For the LORD'S portion [is] his people; Jacob [is] the lot of his inheritance.

Alter

When Elyon gave estates to nations,
when He split up the sons of man,
He set out the boundaries of peoples,
by the number of the sundry gods.

Yes, the Lord's portion is His people
Jacob the parcel of His estate
​
And the commentary:
Elyon (the High One) is the sky god of the Canaanite pantheon, who appears to have been assimilated into biblical monotheism as an epithet for the God of Israel (see the comment on Genesis 14:19-20). The use of this designation here probably reflects the antiquity of the poem.


The Masoretic Text here reads lemispar beney yisra'el, "by the number of the sons of Israel." It is hard to make much sense of that reading, though traditional exegetes try to do that by noting that Israel/Jacob had seventy male descendants when he went down to Egypt and that there are, at least proverbially, seventy nations. This translation adopts the reading of the text found at Qumran (which seems close to the Hebrew text used by the Septuagint translators): lemispar beney 'elohim. This phrase, which appears to reflect a very early stage in the evolution of biblical monotheism, caused later transmitters of the text theological discomfort and was probably deliberately changed in the interests of piety. In the older world-picture, registered in a variety of biblical texts, God is surrounded by a celestial entourage of divine beings or lesser deities, beney 'elim or benet 'elohim, who are nevertheless subordinate to the supreme God. The Song of Moses assumes that God, in allotting portions of the earth to the various peoples, also allowed each people its own lesser deity. Compare Moses's remark about the astral deities in Deuteronomy 4:19.
​
This information is available elsewhere (e.g., Tov, Cross), but it's wonderfully helpful to have it integrated into the commentary of a well-respected translation.


If you're at all interested, Alter's The Five Books of Moses is, in my opinion, well worth owning.
Click to expand...
It looks like a great book. I can't help but ponder what man's psyche went through to evolve from polytheism to monotheism. I always look at the Bible as an inner process.
 
Jayhawker Soule

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
In my opinion ...
Mythology is projection mediated by hope and fear. The shift from henotheism to monotheism reflects the concurrent socio-political shift from a confederation of tribes with many tribal chieftains to a kingdom with a king.​
 
croak

croak

Trickster
I've been wondering......Deut, did you know what it talked about or you just wanted a username and it came to your mind?
 
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