Socialism -- a pathway to disaster

Shad · Mar 23, 2020

Milton Platt said:
This is a serious topic that has begged for resolution for decades. At the end of the day, we now have a congress that consistently spends money they don't have (and then reduces taxes as a means of increasing revenue???) and squabbles over an idiotic wall as Rome burns.

Most governments spend money they do not have. It isn't unique to the US. The US is just the prime example. Entitlement programs are next to impose to repeal as people freak out over cuts while whining about government spending habits.

dfnj · Mar 23, 2020

Shad said:
Most governments spend money they do not have. It isn't unique to the US. The US is just the prime example. Entitlement programs are next to impose to repeal as people freak out over cuts while whining about government spending habits.

Back in the 50s there was an expression "Guns or butter". We've had "guns" for 50 years now. Look at debt as a percentage of GDP:

Federal Debt: Total Public Debt as Percent of Gross Domestic Product

Bill Clinton's second term was the best economy in my lifetime. I would like to see us return back to Bill Clinton's tax rates and tax policies. We actually had a surplus back in 2000 before GWB administration went on a 4 trillion dollar spending spree.

I think we need to pull back our troops from the ME. We need to stop dropping 35,000 bombs every year around the World. And rebuild our domestic economy so we have the tax base to support the excessive military spending we will undoubtedly need the future.

Shad · Mar 23, 2020

dfnj said:
Back in the 50s there was an expression "Guns or butter". We've had "guns" for 50 years now. Look at debt as a percentage of GDP:

Federal Debt: Total Public Debt as Percent of Gross Domestic Product

Bill Clinton's second term was the best economy in my lifetime. I would like to see us return back to Bill Clinton's tax rates and tax policies. We actually had a surplus back in 2000 before GWB administration went on a 4 trillion dollar spending spree.

You are confuse budget deficits/surplus with national debt. A budget is not restricted to only spending based on existing revenue but what is requested by those making the request.If a budget is in excess of revenue a surplus is misleading.

I think we need to pull back our troops from the ME.

Those savings will be redirect to foreign aid. Toss in that does nothing to address USAF and USN support which has been the primary form of support for a few years. The problem with the ME is that the US dollar is the petrol dollar. If the US withdraws the oil market will have major issues thus the USD will have issues. The US is economically tied to the ME oil supply and has been for decades

We need to stop dropping 35,000 bombs every year around the World. And rebuild our domestic economy so we have the tax base to support the excessive military spending we will undoubtedly need the future.

As per the above the USD is based on oil. Oil is traded only using USD in almost every nation except for Russia, Iran and Venezuela. Two of those have economies in some form of collapse.

Wars are never budget friendly and never will be.

metis · Mar 23, 2020

When high-efficient masks to protect medical staff that used to sell for under $1 are now being sold for over $7 to hospitals, please tell us how capitalism is supposedly helping to protect them and us? When hospitals have to put in bids to get masks and respirators, please tell us how that is making us all safer? When we have a president who is repeatedly saying that we should let the free-market just play out on this, please tell us how this is going to help us in this emergency? China made the organized and centralized decision, and they're very much on the mend, but is anyone here in the States optimistic that we are going to get out of our mess anywhere near as quickly?

IOW, since when is being organized and working together a fault? When is sharing a fault? And when is Jesus' teachings on sharing and working together for the common good a fault?

Milton Platt · Mar 23, 2020

Shad said:
Most governments spend money they do not have. It isn't unique to the US. The US is just the prime example. Entitlement programs are next to impose to repeal as people freak out over cuts while whining about government spending habits.

Entitlement programs are not bad in and of themselves. they just don't need to be implemented without funding.

Yerda · Mar 24, 2020

Revoltingest said:
Bernie isn't really a socialist. It's just a label.
I was willing to vote for him because he wouldn't ever get his full platform.
Instead, I think his peaceful foreign policy would be of great economic benefit.

Hi again.

There is something to the label I reckon, but I agree that's what it is. A moderately better version of what already exists in capitalist countries would probably suffice for most of us.

Tambourine · Jul 14, 2020

Shad said:
Most governments spend money they do not have. It isn't unique to the US. The US is just the prime example. Entitlement programs are next to impose to repeal as people freak out over cuts while whining about government spending habits.

You literally cannot run a government without taking on loans.
How would you even able to pay your employees when you only make one that one time at the end of the tax year?

Revoltingest · Jul 14, 2020

Tambourine said:
You literally cannot run a government without taking on loans.
How would you even able to pay your employees when you only make one that one time at the end of the tax year?

In Ameristan, governments collect payroll taxes with every employee's payday.
Others pay estimated income tax quarterly.
So borrowing money is a choice, not a necessity.
But it can be a compelling choice in times of war or plague.

Tambourine · Jul 14, 2020

Revoltingest said:
In Ameristan, governments collect payroll taxes with every employee's payday.
Others pay estimated income tax quarterly.
So borrowing money is a choice, not a necessity.
But it can be a compelling choice in times of war or plague.

Really? Wikipedia seems to say that most payroll taxes are paid quarterly:

Wikipedia said:
Employers must report payroll taxes to the appropriate taxing jurisdiction in the manner each jurisdiction provides. Quarterly reporting of aggregate income tax withholding and Social Security taxes is required in most jurisdictions.[67] Employers must file reports of aggregate unemployment tax quarterly and annually with each applicable state, and annually at the federal level.[68]

Each employer is required to provide each employee an annual report on IRS Form W-2[69] of wages paid and federal, state and local taxes withheld, with a copy sent to the IRS and the taxation authority of the state. These are due by January 31 and February 28 (March 31 if filed electronically), respectively, following the calendar year in which wages are paid. The Form W-2 constitutes proof of payment of tax for the employee.[70]

Employers are required to pay payroll taxes to the taxing jurisdiction under varying rules, in many cases within 1 banking day. Payment of federal and many state payroll taxes is required to be made by electronic funds transfer if certain dollar thresholds are met, or by deposit with a bank for the benefit of the taxing jurisdiction.[71]

How do you pay your employees when you only get paid every three months?

Revoltingest · Jul 14, 2020

Tambourine said:
Really? Wikipedia seems to say that most payroll taxes are paid quarterly:

You're right.
(It's been a while since I had employees. The money taken from
each paycheck would be held for payment to various governments.)

How do you pay your employees when you only get paid every three months?

Have a reserve of money.
That does require some discipline though.

Tambourine · Jul 15, 2020

Revoltingest said:
You're right.
(It's been a while since I had employees. The money taken from
each paycheck would be held for payment to various governments.)

Have a reserve of money.
That does require some discipline though.

So your ideal government would be obliged to take more in taxes than they are using to run the country, I take it?
Otherwise, they would have no way to build up reserves as you seem to argue they ought to.

Revoltingest · Jul 15, 2020

Tambourine said:
So your ideal government would be obliged to take more in taxes than they are using to run the country, I take it?
Otherwise, they would have no way to build up reserves as you seem to argue they ought to.

Not how I'd phrase it.
Take in enuf money to pay the bills.
Have enuf on hand to cover short term discrepancies.
This would mean at times taking in more than is spent.
It seems that you dislike this?

Tambourine · Jul 15, 2020

Revoltingest said:
Not how I'd phrase it.
Take in enuf money to pay the bills.
Have enuf on hand to cover short term discrepancies.
This would mean at times taking in more than is spent.
It seems that you dislike this?

It seems to me like an exercise in deliberately doing things in the most impractical way possible, for seemingly no utility or reason.

What exactly would be the advantages of doing things like this?

Revoltingest · Jul 15, 2020

Tambourine said:
It seems to me like an exercise in deliberately doing things in the most impractical way possible, for seemingly no utility or reason.

What exactly would be the advantages of doing things like this?

To plan income & expenses in a manner that avoids borrowing
except in uncommon emergencies imposes a discipline which
encourages thoughtfulness, openness, efficiency, & thrift.

Tambourine · Jul 15, 2020

Revoltingest said:
To plan income & expenses in a manner that avoids borrowing
except in uncommon emergencies imposes a discipline which
encourages thoughtfulness, openness, efficiency, & thrift.

So your argument is not a practical, but a moral one.

Revoltingest · Jul 15, 2020

Tambourine said:
So your argument is not a practical, but a moral one.

Rather than making a proclamation about my views,
you might consider asking questions. You'll have
more success in understanding posts.

Changing your statement to a question, the answer....
It's practical, but also moral.

Tambourine · Jul 15, 2020

Revoltingest said:
Rather than making a proclamation about my views,
you might consider asking questions. You'll have
more success in understanding posts.

I think you are operating under a misunderstanding if you assume that people who disagree with your statements are only doing so because they haven't understood your writing.

Revoltingest · Jul 15, 2020

Tambourine said:
I think you are operating under a misunderstanding if you assume that people who disagree with your statements are only doing so because they haven't understood your writing.

Well, you have been getting it really really wrong today.
I offered help.

shunyadragon · Jul 15, 2020

All 'isms have existed ever since humans have been human. Socialism, Communism, Communalism, Capitalism, Hedonism,.Militarism, Servitudism in various forms, and whateversism. Neanderthals took care of the crippled, wounded, and elderly when there was not any material advantage. They traded and bartered everything needed. They stole and cheated when they thought they could get away with it.

No society has ever been purely Capitalist nor Socialist in the history of humanity. Many Neolithic tribal cultures were socialist and Comunalistic.

The most successful Communist economy was the Panama Canal Zone managed by the USA, and ended for political reasons and not economics..

Tambourine · Jul 21, 2020

shunyadragon said:
No society has ever been purely Capitalist nor Socialist in the history of humanity. Many Neolithic tribal cultures were socialist and Comunalistic.

I think most people acknowledge that, but certain people still tend to argue that the "bad" parts of any particular order of society are the "socialist" ones, which at this point I simply assume to mean "government policies my conservative friends don't like".

Socialism -- a pathway to disaster

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