Is God involved in the Coronavirus?

Trailblazer said:

I am sorry this post is so long, but I have been holding this in all week, and I wonder why nobody is talking about it, as if it is not even happening. Do people have their heads in the sand or do they simply think that by not talking about it they can pretend it is not happening? Or if they do talk about it they laugh and joke about it, as if it is no big deal. What is wrong with people that they are blind to what is happening? I have my own ideas but I just wonder what other people on RF think.

My academic background is psychology so I always analyze people and how they think and behave. But since I also have a religion and believe in God, I also wonder how God might be involved in anything that happens in the world, especially something like this which is unprecedented in modern history.

Why did this epidemic have to happen? Is God involved? I believe that God has His Hand in everything in the sense that everything that happens is within God’s Will, so if God had not willed it to happen, it would not have happened.

So what are the implications if God is involved? Is God going to punish humanity for their misdeeds? What did humanity do to deserve this? Imo, we cannot fall back in the sinful humanity because Adam and Eve ate the apple story again; that is old hat and I do not even believe in original sin, but I digress because I want to talk about what is possibly going on now, not what happened in the past. Why would God will this for humanity? Are we all guilty, not because of original sin, but because of something else? If only some people are guilty, a lot of innocent people are going to get caught in the crossfire. Even if they do not contract the virus or have a loved one who contracts it, the effect upon the economy affects everyone, especially older people who have saved for retirement all their lives. But I digress again, and I do not want to talk about the state of the economy because it will only make me angry.

Things like this do not happen for no reason, and since God is ultimately in charge of everything, God has to be behind it in some way. But even if God is behind it that does not mean that humanity “collectively” did not deserve this, because I believe that God is just and loving.

Some people blame President Trump for all of this, get real. Trump did not cause this, and even if he did not manage it that well, Trump does not have that much power – but God does. The buck stops with God, Imo, so now all you atheists can pile on, and I will agree with you. .

So, back to the subject, why did this have to happen? Of course we will never know but we can conjecture about it. I have my own opinions and I think it is because humanity had to wake up and realize who is ultimately in charge – God. But it is more than that since most people already know that God is in charge. In my opinion, humanity has to eventually wake up and realize that we are all one people and the way we are living is not working for all of humanity. Ultimately, we need to come together and work together for the sake of all of humanity.

Reflections on the Coronavirus and the Oneness of Humanity

Sadly, what I see is that most people are basically selfish and materialistic. However, all humans also have a noble spiritual nature so they have the capacity to sacrifice for the sake of others, and we see that in these times of crisis. Not everyone is going to care about other people though; some people are going to be worried if they will be able to get toilet paper. To me it is Unbelievable that people would worry about such a petty thing when the world is crumbling all around them. Oh no, the Coronavirus is not the only world crisis, we have been in “crisis mode” for a very long time. Does anybody care about a solution?

I apologize ahead of time if I offend anyone’s beliefs, but I do not believe Jesus is coming back to fix the mess the world is in; fixing this mess is the job for humans working together. And how much of this crisis can be attributed to the Christians who are “waiting for Jesus” and assuming He is going to come eventually, He just got hung up at the airport. But that is the power beliefs hold, people can believe anything. I think what we need to ask ourselves is how rational these beliefs are, and even more importantly, how are these beliefs going to help anyone? Clearly, Jesus is not here and there is no reason to believe He is coming because He said His work was finished here and He was no more in the world (John 17:4, John 17:11).

It was not the purpose of this post to lay blame upon anyone, but I cannot help but think that holding the belief that Jesus is coming to rescue humanity plays a part in how people think and behave. Why worry about doing anything if Jesus is coming soon? Maybe I am reading too much into this because my academic background is psychology, or maybe I see something others do not see, I don’t know. I just know it bothers me tremendously, because it is selfish and lazy to expect Jesus or God to “fix” what humanity is responsible for and what humanity is fully capable of fixing.

According to my beliefs humans are responsible for the mess we find ourselves in so our sins will not go unpunished, because that is in accordance with God’s justice. However, the past is gone and now we need to live in the present and work towards the future. God will not abandon us to our fate. If we do His Will, God will be with us every step of the way as we try to apply His Remedy to the problems the world faces.

“God, the Vigilant, the Just, the Loving, the All-Wise Ordainer, can, in this supreme Dispensation, neither allow the sins of an unregenerate humanity, whether of omission or of commission, to go unpunished, nor will He be willing to abandon His children to their fate, and refuse them that culminating and blissful stage in their long, their slow and painful evolution throughout the ages, which is at once their inalienable right and their true destiny.” The Promised Day Is Come, pp. 4-5

This Judgment of God

Click to expand...

Frankly, I find this post distasteful. We are experiencing a pandemic, people are dying, the economy is going to suffer for this and people's lives are being affected in very serious ways.

Now is not the time to inject your superstitious beliefs into this.

Trailblazer said:

...why did this have to happen?....Does anybody care about a solution?....

Click to expand...

Oh yes, European central bank cares and basically promises 750 billion to banks.

ECB announces €750 billion Pandemic Emergency Purchase Programme (PEPP)
ECB announces €750 billion Pandemic Emergency Purchase Programme (PEPP)

I think that solution also confirms that this whole epidemic is fake and only made up to give money for banks. It also gives nice excuse for those who have had poor financial management. It seems to be one way to save face of those who are very bad in economics (Italy for example).

TagliatelliMonster said:

You can see cars coming. This "enemy" is invisible.

Click to expand...

So what it boils down to is the known vs. the unknown. The freeway is known, what the virus will do is unknown.

I find this eerily similar to comparing life of earth with the afterlife in the spiritual world. This world is known, the spiritual world is unknown. In my opinion, that is why people are so afraid of death. Baha’u’llah wrote that if we really knew what the afterlife will be like we would not wish to remain in this world for one more minute and the fabric of society would be destroyed, and that is one reason Baha’u’llah did not reveal more about the afterlife. The other reason is that the spiritual world is so different from this world that there are no words to describe it.

TagliatelliMonster said:

And the most dangerous part, is that health care centers are completely overrun. To the point that doctors are going to have to send people home, knowing they will die without treatment, while they could be cured if only there was a bed available in the hospital to put them in.

This is what is happening in Italy. The max capacity has been reached. For every 3 patients they get, they need to send 2 to 3 home - knowing they won't survive at home.

Click to expand...

But how many people in other countries have gotten that sick that they needed to be hospitalized?

TagliatelliMonster said:

And yet, some "cosmic reason" involving god for this whole thing was your default go-to thought.

Not bashing you on that btw. I just find it fascinating and curious.

Click to expand...

Please try to bear in mind that I am a believer and you are an atheist, so naturally we will have completely different perspectives.I believe that God is involved in everything that happens in the sense that God knows everything that is going on all the time. On the other hand, I do not believe that God necessarily intervenes in this world. In my opinion, God only intervenes when He speaks to His Messengers or if He chooses to answer our prayers.

TagliatelliMonster said:

No, they are science based.
These measures, like over here in Belgium where we are in lock-down, aren't actually for the primary purpose of stopping the virus. The primary purpose is to slow it down. This only so that hospitals aren't overrun, that max capacity will not be reached. That's the primary goal.

Once max capacity is reached, death toll rises exponentially and health staff is faced with the traumatizing dilemma of having to pick and choose who to save. Which is just another way of saying that they have to decide who they will send to their deaths.

Imagine being a doctor in a hospital in the ER, having to think "I can save this person easily but we are at full capacity, so I'll just send him/her home to his/her certain death instead"

This is when death toll rises exponentially, like we see in Italy and soon likely in Spain also.

Click to expand...

Okay, thanks for offering that perspective. In Europe, you are in a completely different world.

I have not been watching news on TV so my primary source of information about the virus is where I work (state government) and I also get information on a forum I post on called the Opinion Forum. That forum is mostly about American politics and world events, very little about religion, and the coronavirus is all they are talking about now.

TagliatelliMonster said:

If you wish to call thousands "a few".

If we in Belgium (a country of only 10 million citizens) don't take any measures, then in the best case scenario our entire health care industry implodes and we are faced with some 50.000 deaths. And that's best case scenario.

Click to expand...

Sorry, I should not have made light of it as I did. Of course human life is more important than economics. One can be restored, the other cannot, unless you believe that bodies rise from graves, but that is NOT a Baha’i belief.

From what I know about certain northern European countries, they are predominately atheists, so maybe that is why the government and populace is more rational than those who live in other countries who believe certain Christian beliefs such as people rising from graves en masse.

I see nothing wrong with the government policies on social distancing, because after all, socializing is not necessary to live, it is just something most people enjoy doing. Moreover, it is not necessary for people to go out to restaurants or movie theaters or beauty salons or gyms to work out. All these are activities people want to do, but they do not need to do them. Americans are so spoiled, so in a sense I am glad their pastimes have been taken away from them. Maybe it will cause them to think of other things that are more important like God but I am not holding my breath.

All Churches in my state have had to cancel services so I do not know what effect that will have on Easter Sunday. With all due respect to Christians, Bahas do not believe Jesus rose from the dead but probably most American Baha’is are a lot more tolerant of that belief than I am. I am not one to keep quiet about what I believe and I am not tolerant of that belief atall, since I believe it does real damage to society. I mean since the belief in the resurrection is coupled with the belief that Jesus is going to return in the same resurrected body and fix everything that is wrong in the world, I consider that belief positively harmful to society since it causes complacency . I don’t know how many Christians have told me it does not matter what happens in the world because “Jesus is coming.” Beliefs hold a lot of power over people.

TagliatelliMonster said:

That's an extremely false analogy imo.
First, I disagree that "nobody gives a rip".
Secondly, the measures put in place against covid19 wouldn't slow down a marching army.

Click to expand...

Okay fair enough. That was a bad analogy, and if measures will stop the spread of the virus I am all for them being implemented.

TagliatelliMonster said:

No. The disease there progresses in the exact same way as anywhere else. It's not that italians get "sicker" then the rest. It rather is that they have a huge number of sick people.

It's pure statistics. Some % of sick people end up in the hospital. Half of them end up in IC. Half of those die.

The total number of hospitals have a max capacity.
So the number that ends up in the hospital must stay below that line of max capacity.
Which means that the total number of infections has an upper margin for health care to be able to deal with it.

The problem in italy, is that the amount of infections is WAY above that which they can handle.
The entire purpose of the lock down in Belgium and other countries, is to keep the total amount of infections below that upper margin. For the time being, it seems my country (belgium) acted just in time with the measures. The coming weekend will be crucial. That's when the effects of the measures should be kicking in. Then we'll know if we succeeded in "flattening the curve".

Click to expand...

Okay, thanks for that perspective. Please let me know how those measures are working in your country.

Like I said, I have not been following the news on TV. My husband is retired and home all day and he watches a lot of politics and new on TV so if there is something I need to now he will tell me. Incidentally, my husband is 77 and he has severe asthma, so he can barely breathe in the best of conditions even though he has a nebulizer machine and inhalers for asthma. He is considered high risk for the virus so it is good he does not have to leave the house, except to drive me to the grocery store.

TagliatelliMonster said:

It will be true in all countries that didn't implement measures early enough. It's unavoidable.
It is estimated that around 10% of infected people require hospitalization. Roughly half of them end up in ICU.

It's pure statistics. There is an upper limit to the amount of total simultanous infections, that hospitals in a country are able to handle. Once that limit is reached, that's one tragedy begins.

Click to expand...

I did not know the percentage of cases requiring hospitalization were that high. God forbid my husband ever became infected because I doubt he would make it. As such I am glad I posted to you and got increased awareness which will cause us to be more cautious. He really should stay in the car when we go grocery shopping.

TagliatelliMonster said:

The cost of not having 10s of thousands of people die that would otherwise live.

Click to expand...

Okay fair enough. Of course human life is more important than economics. As I conceded to with my atheist friends on my forum, we only have one life on this earth, so regardless of there being an afterlife, this life is very important. That is a Baha’i belief as well, which is why we care not supposed to focus on the afterlife except to know it exists.

TagliatelliMonster said:

Using that kind of logic, why have hospitals and doctors at all, to treat anything?

Click to expand...

You are right of course. We have to save everyone we can save and I am sure God wants this. The Baha’i Faith is very big on science and its importance, and that science is just as important as religion. Moreover, we are enjoined to seek the treatment of a competent physician if we are ill, not wait for God to heal us. That we consider mere superstition.

TagliatelliMonster said:

Yes.
If economies can be rebuild after 4 years of global war and entire cities being burned and bombed to the ground, with millions of deaths... I'm sure countries can handle a couple months of standstill while all infrastructure stays intact.

Click to expand...

Thanks for putting this in perspective, as sometimes I can be emotional and lose perspective. I do not know how the great recession of 2008-2011 affected Europe, but we took a big hit in the United States, yet we finally recovered and the economy eventually soared. Because of that experience it is only natural for me to worry that it couldhappen again and we might not recover this time. Of course, there will always be people on both sides of that fence, conjecturing and having opinions.

TagliatelliMonster said:

Again, this is a false analogy.

Click to expand...

If this virus is as serious as you seem to be saying, I have to agree with you, but again there are those on both sides of the fence, at least in the United States. Since you are in Europe it is more “real” to you.

TagliatelliMonster said:

Euh.... the entire set up of this state of emergency is solidarity and taking care of others - the elderly and those with additional diseases that are part of the risk group.

Click to expand...

That is true. I consider any health care workers who are on the front lines as valiant, just as I consider any other emergency personnel or law enforcement who put their lives on the line every day. I was talking about many average peoplewho just look out for number one.

TagliatelliMonster said:

The vast majority of people aren't threatened by this virus.
In fact, it's quite possible that I already had it and am cured by now. Last week I had a running nose, a cough and a small fever. Doctor told me to stay home but didn't get tested, because it was too mild and test kits are limited.

If it was something else, then I can still get it. But chances are about 99.99% that I, and the rest of my family, would only have mild symptoms.

Click to expand...

So why did you say that 10% of people will require hospitalization?

TagliatelliMonster said:

So sure, I could say "meh... bring it on, I'll be fine".
But I don't. Because I realise that if I am contagious and walk into a bar, I might potentially be killing somebody there.
This is the entire problem.
In the general population, the mortality rate is kind of low. But in the risk groups, it is HUGE.

Sure... as a society you could choose to "sacrifice" the risk group instead.

But I don't want to live in such a society.

Click to expand...

I do not want to live in that kind of society either. That is very admirable of you to care about others. If everyone thought like you, the world would be better place for all of us. That is what the Baha’i Faith aspires to in the future, a new race of men.

New Race of Men | Bahá’í Quotes

IndigoChild5559 said:

You say, "things like this do not happen for no reason." I would like to reply to that remark.

I believe that from the moment God created the universe, that instant of the Big Bang, He did so creating all the laws of nature that would inevitably evolve into sentient human life.

Along the way, it would take many twists and turns. Sentient life might have turned out any number of different way, and evolution might have taken any number of different paths. The point is, our evolution was intended, but not the details. The details simply unfolded as results of those natural laws.

It's kind of like, God made the laws of physics that produce hot and cold and H2O. Therefore hurricanes MUST come into existence. Had the laws of physics been altered just a smidge, we wouldn't have, i.e. water, and so we would have hurricanes, but we probably wouldn't have stars and planets and existing life either.

One of the byproducts of evolution, which is God's MO for developing life, is viruses. You may think that viruses serve no purpose. But the existence of viruses is a byproduct of evolution, and evolution IS necessary for sentient life to come into existence. Or at least that's the way God has intended it.

To put it another way, in order for viruses to not exist, the process of evolution would have to not exist. And if THAT were not true, WE would not exist either, since evolution is the method God chose to put us on the face of this earth.

I hope this has helped.

Click to expand...

Yes, thanks, it helped a lot. I wish all believers were as knowledgeable and logical as you are.

You just got God out of the dog house, which is where He ends up for me much of the time. At least God is standing outside instead of taking up full occupancy.

I am still not that happy that God created a world in which He knew full well people would suffer, but I try to accept that God had His reasons and I will know more about what those were after I die and enter the spiritual world.

IndigoChild5559 said:

Do you just toss out all of science as being worthless? Because science is where we get these preventative measures.

Click to expand...

But governments are the ones who are enforcing the preventative measures.

No, I do not toss out science. One of the most important principles of the Baha’i Faith is the harmony of science and religion and that without both humanity cannot progress...

That said, the scientists are not all in agreement about the coronavirus and there are a lot of unknowns. Meanwhile these “just in case” measures that are being taken are hurting people in other ways by bringing down economies which might not be repairable...

In Washington State where I live the governor closed all schools and libraries last Friday, and this week he ordered all restaurants and bars and any establishments that are recreation based closed. Gyms, hair salons and businesses like those have also been required to close their doors. I have no need for any of these services and people can by without them, but what about all the employees who will not be getting a paycheck? At least half of Americans live paycheck to paycheck. How can they pay their rent or mortgage? The governor has passed a bill wherein landlords cannot evict tenants while this is going on, but what if landlords don’t get rent monies and they have a mortgage on the rental house?

What I am trying to say is that this has a snowball effect, but more importantly, is all this really necessary? There have been no deaths in my county and only six cases have been diagnosed. I understand that the governor is trying to prevent new cases and possible deaths, but at what cost?

Is physical life on this earth really that important? All of us are headed in one direction, so I think it is best we think about that rather than being so attached to living in this material world that is so transitory. Of course this brings up the issue of the sanctity of human life, but the flip side of that is how important this physical life really is, that people cling so tenaciously to it.

As I see it, the main reason people are so afraid of this virus is because they are afraid of death, and the reason they are afraid of death is that most people do not really believe that there is an afterlife, or if they do they only pay lip service to it. If Christians really believed that there is a glorious heaven they are going to, why are they so afraid of dying? Let’s get real. About 75% of Americans are Christians so that means they are the majority of people who are engaging in panic buying, which is mostly supplies to clean and thereby protect themselves from getting the virus. Maybe I have a completely different perspective on dying because of my Baha’i beliefs, the assurances we have been given as well as the fact that our scriptures have more information about the afterlife (spiritual world) than the Bible does.

Satans_Serrated_Edge said:

Frankly, I find this post distasteful. We are experiencing a pandemic, people are dying, the economy is going to suffer for this and people's lives are being affected in very serious ways.

Now is not the time to inject your superstitious beliefs into this.

Click to expand...

I started this thread before things heated up and got worse but even then I was in a state of shock over what was happening. I live in the U.S. state that was the hardest hit.

It does not matter when I started this thread because I was just searching for answers and I got many good ones on this thread. I think it not only helped me but also others who might have needed to talk about this. Imo that is what this forum should be about, people sharing and helping each other.

Now, thanks to the good people of this forum, I know God was not involved, but I am still having to deal with this, along with everyone else, each one of us to varying degrees and for different reasons.

Most people in the United States where I live will never get the virus but the economy is going to suffer. Some people’s lives will not suffer much if at all from any economic downturn, but other people will suffer in serious ways. I won’t tell you which category I belong to because I have learned I cannot trust people on an open forum.

We are all in this together, according to my beliefs.
Reflections on the Coronavirus and the Oneness of Humanity

Instead of ranking on each other we should be supporting each other, regardless of beliefs or non-beliefs.
Choosing Love Over Panic During the Coronavirus Outbreak

I believe to answer the title question, the answer is yes, that God is in control of everything. However as far as I know He isn't taking credit for it.

Nowhere Man said:

I just chalk it up to biology.

Viruses just happen to work this way and the present is no exception from the past.

I don't see it as any kind of grand sky daddy plan and it's kind of a conceit if you think that we are somehow an exception just because we're human beings in terms of Nature and biology.

Click to expand...

I believe in the 1950's everything was seen a a communist plot. Is China working on biological warfare and had an accident?

adrian009 said:

There is no doubt the coronavirus will impact on most of our lives in diverse ways. Some will be directly affected by being infected. For others it will be disruption to some activities we may be involved in. The economic repercussions will affect many of us.

I see it as an opportunity for people to work and collaborate more closely for the good of all. Being a Baha’i will help me be more focused on the community and taking the wisest course of action.

So as far as God is concerned He wants us exercise wisdom, moderation and restraint in how we act and what we say. He doesn’t want us coming up with widely speculative narratives about the causes for coronavirus or to become religious fanatics.

Click to expand...

I believe you should say whether you are speaking for God now or simply putting words in his mouth or speculating what He wants.

Muffled said:

I believe in the 1950's everything was seen a a communist plot. Is China working on biological warfare and had an accident?

Click to expand...

Who knows, but I absolutely love conspiracy theories.

Maybe it's a world takeover plot while we get sent to the FEMA concentration camps. ;0)

That's the thing about these crisis's, your imagination can go just wild with it.

Trailblazer said:

I am sorry this post is so long, but I have been holding this in all week, and I wonder why nobody is talking about it, as if it is not even happening. Do people have their heads in the sand or do they simply think that by not talking about it they can pretend it is not happening? Or if they do talk about it they laugh and joke about it, as if it is no big deal. What is wrong with people that they are blind to what is happening? I have my own ideas but I just wonder what other people on RF think.

My academic background is psychology so I always analyze people and how they think and behave. But since I also have a religion and believe in God, I also wonder how God might be involved in anything that happens in the world, especially something like this which is unprecedented in modern history.

Why did this epidemic have to happen? Is God involved? I believe that God has His Hand in everything in the sense that everything that happens is within God’s Will, so if God had not willed it to happen, it would not have happened.

So what are the implications if God is involved? Is God going to punish humanity for their misdeeds? What did humanity do to deserve this? Imo, we cannot fall back in the sinful humanity because Adam and Eve ate the apple story again; that is old hat and I do not even believe in original sin, but I digress because I want to talk about what is possibly going on now, not what happened in the past. Why would God will this for humanity? Are we all guilty, not because of original sin, but because of something else? If only some people are guilty, a lot of innocent people are going to get caught in the crossfire. Even if they do not contract the virus or have a loved one who contracts it, the effect upon the economy affects everyone, especially older people who have saved for retirement all their lives. But I digress again, and I do not want to talk about the state of the economy because it will only make me angry.

Things like this do not happen for no reason, and since God is ultimately in charge of everything, God has to be behind it in some way. But even if God is behind it that does not mean that humanity “collectively” did not deserve this, because I believe that God is just and loving.

Some people blame President Trump for all of this, get real. Trump did not cause this, and even if he did not manage it that well, Trump does not have that much power – but God does. The buck stops with God, Imo, so now all you atheists can pile on, and I will agree with you. .

So, back to the subject, why did this have to happen? Of course we will never know but we can conjecture about it. I have my own opinions and I think it is because humanity had to wake up and realize who is ultimately in charge – God. But it is more than that since most people already know that God is in charge. In my opinion, humanity has to eventually wake up and realize that we are all one people and the way we are living is not working for all of humanity. Ultimately, we need to come together and work together for the sake of all of humanity.

Reflections on the Coronavirus and the Oneness of Humanity

Sadly, what I see is that most people are basically selfish and materialistic. However, all humans also have a noble spiritual nature so they have the capacity to sacrifice for the sake of others, and we see that in these times of crisis. Not everyone is going to care about other people though; some people are going to be worried if they will be able to get toilet paper. To me it is Unbelievable that people would worry about such a petty thing when the world is crumbling all around them. Oh no, the Coronavirus is not the only world crisis, we have been in “crisis mode” for a very long time. Does anybody care about a solution?

I apologize ahead of time if I offend anyone’s beliefs, but I do not believe Jesus is coming back to fix the mess the world is in; fixing this mess is the job for humans working together. And how much of this crisis can be attributed to the Christians who are “waiting for Jesus” and assuming He is going to come eventually, He just got hung up at the airport. But that is the power beliefs hold, people can believe anything. I think what we need to ask ourselves is how rational these beliefs are, and even more importantly, how are these beliefs going to help anyone? Clearly, Jesus is not here and there is no reason to believe He is coming because He said His work was finished here and He was no more in the world (John 17:4, John 17:11).

It was not the purpose of this post to lay blame upon anyone, but I cannot help but think that holding the belief that Jesus is coming to rescue humanity plays a part in how people think and behave. Why worry about doing anything if Jesus is coming soon? Maybe I am reading too much into this because my academic background is psychology, or maybe I see something others do not see, I don’t know. I just know it bothers me tremendously, because it is selfish and lazy to expect Jesus or God to “fix” what humanity is responsible for and what humanity is fully capable of fixing.

According to my beliefs humans are responsible for the mess we find ourselves in so our sins will not go unpunished, because that is in accordance with God’s justice. However, the past is gone and now we need to live in the present and work towards the future. God will not abandon us to our fate. If we do His Will, God will be with us every step of the way as we try to apply His Remedy to the problems the world faces.

“God, the Vigilant, the Just, the Loving, the All-Wise Ordainer, can, in this supreme Dispensation, neither allow the sins of an unregenerate humanity, whether of omission or of commission, to go unpunished, nor will He be willing to abandon His children to their fate, and refuse them that culminating and blissful stage in their long, their slow and painful evolution throughout the ages, which is at once their inalienable right and their true destiny.” The Promised Day Is Come, pp. 4-5

This Judgment of God

Click to expand...

I would never be able to speak of what a God thinks of us human beings in the way of if we are so bad that God chooses to infect us with a virus to end some life that we as humans can not understand why we should die this way.
But a question in all this would also what is actually God, and could humans truly understand what a God do think?
I also consider that it might be that those who do die from this virus could have to much karma to live on, but honestly i do not know the answer, and maybe it is wrong of me to speculate in it

Trailblazer said:

Yes, thanks, it helped a lot. I wish all believers were as knowledgeable and logical as you are.

You just got God out of the dog house, which is where He ends up for me much of the time. At least God is standing outside instead of taking up full occupancy.

I am still not that happy that God created a world in which He knew full well people would suffer, but I try to accept that God had His reasons and I will know more about what those were after I die and enter the spiritual world.

Click to expand...

Well, I have to give a lot of the credit to His Lordship, Dennis Prager. Dennis would be on the radio, explaining to people about God and hurricanes, and the whole hot and cold and H20 part of my text. All I really did was apply that same logic to viruses. It's easy to stand on the shoulders of a great mind.

Trailblazer said:

But governments are the ones who are enforcing the preventative measures.

No, I do not toss out science. One of the most important principles of the Baha’i Faith is the harmony of science and religion and that without both humanity cannot progress...

That said, the scientists are not all in agreement about the coronavirus and there are a lot of unknowns. Meanwhile these “just in case” measures that are being taken are hurting people in other ways by bringing down economies which might not be repairable...

In Washington State where I live the governor closed all schools and libraries last Friday, and this week he ordered all restaurants and bars and any establishments that are recreation based closed. Gyms, hair salons and businesses like those have also been required to close their doors. I have no need for any of these services and people can by without them, but what about all the employees who will not be getting a paycheck? At least half of Americans live paycheck to paycheck. How can they pay their rent or mortgage? The governor has passed a bill wherein landlords cannot evict tenants while this is going on, but what if landlords don’t get rent monies and they have a mortgage on the rental house?

What I am trying to say is that this has a snowball effect, but more importantly, is all this really necessary? There have been no deaths in my county and only six cases have been diagnosed. I understand that the governor is trying to prevent new cases and possible deaths, but at what cost?

Is physical life on this earth really that important? All of us are headed in one direction, so I think it is best we think about that rather than being so attached to living in this material world that is so transitory. Of course this brings up the issue of the sanctity of human life, but the flip side of that is how important this physical life really is, that people cling so tenaciously to it.

As I see it, the main reason people are so afraid of this virus is because they are afraid of death, and the reason they are afraid of death is that most people do not really believe that there is an afterlife, or if they do they only pay lip service to it. If Christians really believed that there is a glorious heaven they are going to, why are they so afraid of dying? Let’s get real. About 75% of Americans are Christians so that means they are the majority of people who are engaging in panic buying, which is mostly supplies to clean and thereby protect themselves from getting the virus. Maybe I have a completely different perspective on dying because of my Baha’i beliefs, the assurances we have been given as well as the fact that our scriptures have more information about the afterlife (spiritual world) than the Bible does.

Click to expand...

First, let me say I understand your concerns. This is probably the greatest national crisis you have ever had in your life. You have nothing to compare it to. It's bigger than 9/11 even. And you are wondering why these drastic measures are necessary when it looks like the cure is worse than the disease. Am I understanding you right?

What many people are not getting is that they think if we can't lock down this virus, if it simply does its natural thing, 3-4% of the world's population will die. THAT would be a crisis bigger than we can handle. And that's not all who would be sick. That's just the one's who would succumb. If left to its natural devices, the world will be absolutely overwrought. We wouldn't have enough hospital beds to put the sick, or enough graves to bury the dead. We have an idea how it would go, because of plagues that have hit the world in history, such as the 1918 influenza, or black death in the middle ages.

We are trying to use our knowledge of history and science to get ahead of that curve. And that means using some, yes, draconian measures. It means pulling together as people, as cities, states, nations, even as a world.

And yes, its going to get worse before it gets better. I'm not going to share my private thoughts because I don't want to increase a panic. Indeed I think people panicking are causing most of the trouble, such as food hoarding. But I think this will last until the vaccine comes out in 12-18 months. So you can imagine yourself, what it will be like trying to get through this for that long a time. Think of it as taking chemotherapy and radiation in order to get rid of a deadly cancer. The treatment is itself just awful! But it is the only thing we can do to save the life.

The thing of it is, as with all true tragedies such as wars, earthquakes, floods, etc., they never last forever. Life always goes on and things recover. Always. "This too shall pass."

Indeed one of the things we should learn from these times of trials is that the good times too, never last. "This too shall pass." It keeps us humble!

Spread the love. We are one people, one race, one humanity. We will survive. May God bless you during this time.

I do believe that God allowed this Coronavirus to happen because he is tired of all the violence, humans mistreating God's nature / creation. What is happening now is written in the bible where before Jesus coming for his church we will see signs, such as plagues. I feel like God is warning us of His coming and what we ought to be doing is getting closer to him by reading His word, and praying. Praying builds a relationship with God, and this is what we need more now. It is time to get closer to God and have our faith in Him. He will protect us from all of this, and in his name there is Victory! Whether we survive or not, He is still victorious and the Glory goes to Him always and forever! I am a Biology major, but I do not rely on science. I believe in the Lord and I believe that Jesus died for us and that we (those that believe in Him) are covered with His blood.

Trailblazer said:

Things like this do not happen for no reason, and since God is ultimately in charge of everything, God has to be behind it in some way. But even if God is behind it that does not mean that humanity “collectively” did not deserve this, because I believe that God is just and loving.

Click to expand...

For me as a Hindu it's quite simple.. God has nothing to do with this. That he does is a uniquely Abrahamic belief, belief in a God who controls, directs and has a hand in everything.

Suffering and the Problem of Evil.

Problem of evil in Hinduism:

The standard problem of evil found in monotheistic religions does not apply to almost all traditions of Hinduism because it does not posit an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent creator.[1][2] ...

Hinduism and other Indian religions do not focus on the problem of evil as formulated in monotheistic religions, by attempting to reconcile the nature of one all-powerful, all-seeing, all-benevolent god with existence of evil.[11] Rather, they focus on the path to spiritual liberation called moksha, one that grants bliss in the present life such that evil and suffering have no effect on the liberated person's state of inner peace and happiness, and attaining moksha also means an end to the cycle of rebirth.[9][13][14] In theistic devotional sub-traditions of Hinduism, the personal god such as Krishna or Shiva or Devi is believed by the Hindu to stand by, as a form of spiritual support and liberator, when one faces evil and suffers.[12]

In other words, it's the nature of the world that **** happens.

Jainarayan said:

For me as a Hindu it's quite simple.. God has nothing to do with this. That he does is a uniquely Abrahamic belief, belief in a God who controls, directs and has a hand in everything.

Suffering and the Problem of Evil.

Problem of evil in Hinduism:

The standard problem of evil found in monotheistic religions does not apply to almost all traditions of Hinduism because it does not posit an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent creator.[1][2] ...

Hinduism and other Indian religions do not focus on the problem of evil as formulated in monotheistic religions, by attempting to reconcile the nature of one all-powerful, all-seeing, all-benevolent god with existence of evil.[11] Rather, they focus on the path to spiritual liberation called moksha, one that grants bliss in the present life such that evil and suffering have no effect on the liberated person's state of inner peace and happiness, and attaining moksha also means an end to the cycle of rebirth.[9][13][14] In theistic devotional sub-traditions of Hinduism, the personal god such as Krishna or Shiva or Devi is believed by the Hindu to stand by, as a form of spiritual support and liberator, when one faces evil and suffers.[12]

In other words, it's the nature of the world that **** happens.

Click to expand...

We have different thoughts and belief. You are entitled to your beliefs and in the end, we will know.

Muffled said:

I believe to answer the title question, the answer is yes, that God is in control of everything. However as far as I know He isn't taking credit for it.

Click to expand...

Nor has He taken responsibility, but even if He is responsible, we’ll never know.

Amanaki said:

I would never be able to speak of what a God thinks of us human beings in the way of if we are so bad that God chooses to infect us with a virus to end some life that we as humans can not understand why we should die this way.

Click to expand...

I do not believe that God infected anyone with this disease. They were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Why just wonder about this virus? In the overall scheme of things, this virus is only one way that people have died and statistically it is not that significant. I mean we are not talking about the bubonic plague, but the way some people act, you would think we were. Some estimates suggest that the bubonic plague wiped out over half of Europe's population.

Amanaki said:

But a question in all this would also what is actually God, and could humans truly understand what a God do think?
I also consider that it might be that those who do die from this virus could have to much karma to live on, but honestly I do not know the answer, and maybe it is wrong of me to speculate in it

Click to expand...

I do not believe that humans can understand what God thinks. I do not think that those who die from this virus have bad karma, they were just unlucky, but I believe they are recompensed by God in the afterlife where they continue to exist eternally in a spiritual body free of any impediments. It might seem very horrible that people have to die like this, but that is because we cannot see what is on the other side in the spiritual world.

Jainarayan said:

For me as a Hindu it's quite simple.. God has nothing to do with this. That he does is a uniquely Abrahamic belief, belief in a God who controls, directs and has a hand in everything.

Click to expand...

Not all Abrahamic religious believers believe the same way. I do not believe that God has a hand in everything because God gave us a rational mind and free will to manage our own affairs.

I do not believe that God had anything to do with this virus. I was only thinking out loud when I posted this thread a week ago, but after I read the posts on this thread I realized that God had nothing to do with this outbreak.

Jainarayan said:

In other words, it's the nature of the world that **** happens.

Click to expand...

I fully agree. The material world is fraught with suffering and this virus is just one example of many. I want nothing more than to be free of this world, but I have to wait till my designated time to depart.