Cleansing Herod's Temple

Jayhawker Soule · Dec 17, 2004

It was a massive structure, perhaps roughly the size of 20 football fields laid out in a 5x4 grid. Such a structure would demand not only a significant Priesthood, but a complex Jewish and Roman infrastructure. There would be people to service the many thousands of faithful, and people to maintain the area. This was a period of rebelliousness and constant tensions between Rome and the Jews. One can be sure that both the Roman regime and the Priesthood would have committed the forces necessary to maintain order and protect "Herod's" Temple and this single most important location in Judaism.

Interesting related sites are:

It seems to have been a pretty impressive complex. Enter Jesus who, according to Mark 11, had just come from cursing a poor *fig tree:

15 And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;
16 And would not suffer that any man should carry [any] vessel through the temple.
17 And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.
18 And the scribes and chief priests heard [it], and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine.
19 And when evening was come, he went out of the city.

Since I have already been chastised by the faithful for raising questions about Biblical credibility, I'll leave interpretation to more creative minds. Meanwhile, I suspect that had anyone actually caused such an uproar, he/they would have been dealt with immediately and forcibly.

(*) The author of gMt apparently felt the need to explain this act of figicide. He positions it after the Temple incident rather than before, and then embellishes it with dialogue. Luke transforms the whole thing into a parable and presents it some 5 chapters before the Temple story.

Scott1 · Dec 17, 2004

Meanwhile, I suspect that had anyone actually caused such an uproar, he/they would have been dealt with immediately and and forcibly.

Super. Thank you for sharing.

Ronald · Dec 17, 2004

Marks book is on the Peshat level of interpretation. Short to the point, literal level.
PRDS peshat "simple" remez "hint" derash allegory" sod "hidden"

chuck010342 · Dec 17, 2004

Deut. 32Meanwhile said:
and what were they gonna do? take Jesus out and crucify him? no sensible Jew would do that.

God is in control over all the events of Jesus and his ministry Jesus died at the correct time. God caused Jesus not to be hurt untill the proper time

Khale · Dec 17, 2004

Possibility 1: The scenario could have played out exactly as it said it was. The priests were afraid to kill him for fear of martyring him. So they let him leave.

Possibility 2 (and the more likely): Mark wrote this to address issues that were occurring in the temples at the time of the writing. It could be more of analogy, using Jesus, to point out the flaws in the religion.

Either way I don't see how the credibility of the bible is at stake as you insinuated. In one way it's true and in the other way it demonstrates that it is also a book of theology.

Valjean · Dec 17, 2004

Chuck -- If you were to walk into a Mall, museum or any large public institution today and start wreaking havoc, you'd at the least expect to be forcibly ejected. The jews might not have taken him out and crucified him, but no "sensible Jew" would have stood idly by as some violent nutter rampaged through his temple and place of business.

Jayhawker Soule · Dec 17, 2004

Furthermore, this was still "Herod's Temple", and at least one commentary notes that "The merchants (those who were selling) would have been located in the Court of the Gentiles." There would have been Roman as well as Jewish personnel on hand. As for the rest, I find it interesting that those who appeal to allegory dare not do so when it comes to such things at the Virgin Birth and the Resurrection.

Note, by the way: Jews don't crucify. Romans crucify. At worst, the Jews would have tried and stoned him.

Scott1 · Dec 17, 2004

Deut said:
As for the rest, I find it interesting that those who appeal to allegory dare not do so when it comes to such things at the Virgin Birth and the Resurrection.

Rather weak strawman..... this just goes to show how little you really know about Christian and especially Catholic Christian dogma (Theotokos, Assumption etc).

Still wondering what you are trying to prove with these posts.......

Scott

Jayhawker Soule · Dec 17, 2004

I readily agree that you know far more "about Christian and especially Catholic Christian dogma (Theotokos, Assumption etc)" than I, and if you tell me that an allegorical interpretation of the Virgin Birth and Resurrection are permissable, I'll certainly take that into consideration.

Scott1 · Dec 17, 2004

Deut said:
and if you tell me that an allegorical interpretation of the Virgin Birth and Resurrection are permissable, I'll certainly take that into consideration.

Permissable? It's "permissable" for you to interpret the Scriptures any way you'd like.... and I care not if you take any part of the Scriptures or the interpretation of the text therein "into consideration"..... remember, this is your thread.... I'm still wondering what the point is.

Jayhawker Soule · Dec 17, 2004

I thought the cites referenced were interesting and allowed us to read the "cleansing" pericopes with more informed eyes.

Scott1 · Dec 17, 2004

I'm sorry then.... I thought you placed this thread in the debate section because you were trying to make a point.... my bad.

Hat's off to your education..... informed eyes are important to Biblical understanding.

Peace,
Scott

Ronald · Dec 17, 2004

There would have been no Roman Soldiers in the Temple. The Rulers of the Temple were afraid of him. Miracle worker.

true blood · Dec 18, 2004

Deut. 32.8 said:
It was a massive structure, perhaps roughly the size of 20 football fields laid out in a 5x4 grid. Such a structure would demand not only a significant Priesthood, but a complex Jewish and Roman infrastructure. There would be people to service the many thousands of faithful, and people to maintain the area. This was a period of rebelliousness and constant tensions between Rome and the Jews. One can be sure that both the Roman regime and the Priesthood would have committed the forces necessary to maintain order and protect "Herod's" Temple and this single most important location in Judaism.

Interesting related sites are:

The Jerusalem Archaeological Park

Urban Simulation Team

Herod's Temple

It seems to have been a pretty impressive complex. Enter Jesus who, according to Mark 11, had just come from cursing a poor *fig tree:

15 And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;

16 And would not suffer that any man should carry [any] vessel through the temple.

17 And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.

18 And the scribes and chief priests heard [it], and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine.

19 And when evening was come, he went out of the city.

Since I have already been chastised by the faithful for raising questions about Biblical credibility, I'll leave interpretation to more creative minds. Meanwhile, I suspect that had anyone actually caused such an uproar, he/they would have been dealt with immediately and forcibly.

(*) The author of gMt apparently felt the need to explain this act of figicide. He positions it after the Temple incident rather than before, and then embellishes it with dialogue. Luke transforms the whole thing into a parable and presents it some 5 chapters before the Temple story.

You need to see the bigger picture. Jesus Christ knew what he was up against. He knew what the "Temple" had become. He was on a mission from God. As he had done so often, he confronted the religious leaders in the temple. The Pharisees, Sadducess, and Herodians-three groups which in fact usually opposed each other. But on this occasion had a mutual agreement to destroy Jesus Christ. After all he was a threat to their positions and followings. You would think that it was suicide for Jesus to even go near the "Temple" yet he endured this temptation. You mentioned the "poor fig trees". The fig trees contain the key to understanding. The law of believing. He established God's law to his disciples that day. Perhaps reaffirming his own in the process. Like I said, he knew what was up. Bigger picture. The first miracle involved cursing a fig tree(outside the city) on Saturday and finding it dried up by the next morning. The second miracle involved cursing another fig tree(inside the city) on Sunday morning, even observing it whither away before their eyes. This completely established (Genesis 41:32) the law of believing for Jesus' party, just before entering the great "Temple". Perhaps the establishment of the law enhanced the party for the upcoming battle. Although we see Jesus and his party does not confront the chief priests and elders with violence but confronted thier craftiness with boldness, wisdom, and the use of parables. His discourse this day was a penetrating and courageous presentation in all presence. Much of what he said was for the benefit of his many disciples present. Personally I would have liked to have seen some Matrix like manuveurs. But he concluded his discourse with a prophecy concerning Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple. During this time the Temple was actually still being built in its outer courts. The building of Herod's Temple and its courts had begun around 20 B.C. Finished in 64 A.D. Destroyed in 70 A.D.

Back to the story. The events I just described were Jesus' third entry into the city. Jesus and his gang leave the temple untouched. What stopped the elders from destroying him on the first day? Second day? What kept the religious leaders from destroying him this day...we wonder. The answer is probably linked to the fig tree. While Jesus is tucked safely at the Mount of Olives giving prophecies like an oracle of God about future events concerning Israel, the enemy leaders are gathering to consider ways of killing him. Jesus having their plans revealed to him before they even begin their scheming. A step ahead. He knows what day he dies. The Passover sacrifice.

DirtyHarry · Dec 28, 2004

Is it possible that the "Temple Security" did nothing to Jesus because the money changers and such were not supposed to be there in the first place? What I mean is that according to temple rules, there was not supposed to be any type of buying or selling going on in the grounds of the temple. I'll have to get back to you on the passage that addresses this. If its there, I could be wrong about that but I'm pretty sure I've heard of it before, somewhere....

DirtyHarry · Dec 28, 2004

Deut. 32.8 said:
Note, by the way: Jews don't crucify. Romans crucify. At worst, the Jews would have tried and stoned him.

I disagree, I think that it is obvious that the Jewish leaders of the day manipulated Jewish and Roman law systems to have Jesus specifically crucified. Technically, yes, Romans nailed him to a cross, but only becuase the Jews would have it no other way.

Jayhawker Soule · Dec 28, 2004

DirtyHarry said:
What I mean is that according to temple rules, there was not supposed to be any type of buying or selling going on in the grounds of the temple. I'll have to get back to you on the passage that addresses this.

That will be the day. You simply don't know what you're talking about.

jewscout · Dec 28, 2004

DirtyHarry said:
I disagree, I think that it is obvious that the Jewish leaders of the day manipulated Jewish and Roman law systems to have Jesus specifically crucified. Technically, yes, Romans nailed him to a cross, but only becuase the Jews would have it no other way.

Or so we're told by people who picked and chose from over a dozen "gospels" centuries after the crucifiction.

Jayhawker Soule · Dec 28, 2004

DirtyHarry said:
I disagree, I think that it is obvious that the Jewish leaders of the day manipulated Jewish and Roman law systems to have Jesus specifically crucified.

I think it's obvious that you haven't a clue what you're talking about. The Passion Narrative is laughable fiction ignorant of even the most basic circumstances of the time (such as the operating rules of the Sanhedrin).

anders · Dec 28, 2004

If you're curious about the origins of the myth of the Temple cleansing, you should look at http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=94158.

Cleansing Herod's Temple

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