Can You Choose What You Believe?

SalixIncendium said:

Can you choose what you believe?
To be clear, I'm not asking if you can choose your religion or if you can choose what to label yourself or your views.
Can you choose what to believe or disbelieve? Or are such core convictions or biases inherent in the individual based on experiences? Or are they based on something else? If so, what?

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I find in Scripture that the man who became the apostle Paul felt empowered by the un-faithful Jewish religious leaders, empowered to the point that he considered it his God-given duty to prosecute any people who disagreed.
In time, he saw the distinction between the wrong religious teachings and of what God approves.
Thus, Paul choose to change his ways based on what he learned from the Scriptures.
So, like Paul many sincere people are deceived by teachings that might be likened to impossible figures:
beliefs that seem plausible but are Not based on Scripture (Proverbs 14:12; Romans 10:2-3) but when they saw the beliefs, and the fruits of what their religion really is, then they made changes in both belief and lifestyle in order to have God's approval.- Matthew 7:15-20.
So, we should all be willing to examine our beliefs in the light of God's Word.

Satans_Serrated_Edge said:

No, of course not. We believe that of which we have been convinced. You can not choose what convinces you of something. That's just not how the mind works.

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I agree that we can believe that of which we have been convinced.
However, I also think we 'can' choose what convinces us of something.
The apostle Paul had a first-hand experience with the false Jewish religious leaders.
Once Paul realized how wrong they were, then he freely chose to change his worship and way of life.
Plus, we don't have to be a Don Quixote, a man who was deceived by his own fanciful imagination.

URAVIP2ME said:

I agree that we can believe that of which we have been convinced.
However, I also think we 'can' choose what convinces us of something.
The apostle Paul had a first-hand experience with the false Jewish religious leaders.
Once Paul realized how wrong they were, then he freely chose to change his worship and way of life.
Plus, we don't have to be a Don Quixote, a man who was deceived by his own fanciful imagination.

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I really don't care who said what in what fictional tale, no offense.

I care about the real world that we live in.

In this world when you believe all swans are white, a single black swan should dispel that belief and replace it with a new one.

But even in your story Saul was fed input that lead him to believe differently. It wasn't a choice so much as a confrontation with experience that left him unable to believe as he had before.

Satans_Serrated_Edge said:

I really don't care who said what in what fictional tale, no offense.
I care about the real world that we live in.
In this world when you believe all swans are white, a single black swan should dispel that belief and replace it with a new one.
But even in your story Saul was fed input that lead him to believe differently. It wasn't a choice so much as a confrontation with experience that left him unable to believe as he had before.

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No offense taken, Thank you for your reply.
I do realize most don't care, and even consider the Bible as fiction.
Jesus does care about the world that we live in.
This is why he forewarned us about today's troubles at Luke 21:11.
This is so we can remain calm amid any turmoil.
I too because of an experience encountered left me unable to believe as I had before.
Not dramatic as Saul/Paul, but just by being shown Scripture I saw what the church teaches often is just their traditions, or handed-down church customs being taught as Scripture but Not being Scripture.
Jesus said we are to tell the world ( global international declaring about God's Kingdom of Daniel 2:44 is coming ).
This is why God's Kingdom will come to our rescue. This is the 'good news' of Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8
Man's history has proven that man can't successfully direct his step, and this is why God is going to have Jesus step in to bring ' healing ' to earth's nations as promised at Revelation 22:2.
Whether one believes this or not, this is what the Bible is happily teaching us.

SalixIncendium said:

Can you choose what you believe?

To be clear, I'm not asking if you can choose your religion or if you can choose what to label yourself or your views.

Can you choose what to believe or disbelieve? Or are such core convictions or biases inherent in the individual based on experiences? Or are they based on something else? If so, what?

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I don't believe in free will, so for me no, but you are making the all-important decision at this moment (I don't believe in time either).
(I believe in God).

PureX said:

Nearly everyone chooses what they believe based on the presumption that it "works" for them within their limited and biased experience and understanding of existence. And since we do not all experience or understand existence in the same ways, we naturally do not all choose to believe the same things about it. To expect that we would, or should, would be illogical.

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You've just explained why we don't choose what we believe. We can't choose our experience. We also can't choose "understand," you either understand or you don't. And since what we believe is based on our experience and understanding, we also can't choose what we believe.

URAVIP2ME said:

I agree that we can believe that of which we have been convinced.
However, I also think we 'can' choose what convinces us of something.
The apostle Paul had a first-hand experience with the false Jewish religious leaders.
Once Paul realized how wrong they were, then he freely chose to change his worship and way of life.
Plus, we don't have to be a Don Quixote, a man who was deceived by his own fanciful imagination.

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You did not provide an explanation nor give an example that actually showed that we can choose what convinces us of something. All you did was give an example of Paul being convinced, and just replaced the word, "convinced" with "realized."

Here, Paul was convinced that they were wrong, thus, believed that by worshiping and living the way they(he) did is wrong. His experience with the false Jewish religious leaders was what convinced him that they were wrong. He did not choose his experience in order to convince himself that they were wrong. At most, we can say that Paul chose not to live the wrong way, but that just shows he already believe that it's also wrong to willing choose to live his life in the wrong way.

As for your example of Don Quixote being deceived by his own fanciful imagination, it would logically mean that he believed his way of life is right because he was convinced into believing that that way of life is right eventhough in actuality, it is wrong. If he wasn't convinced, then that would mean that he wasn't deceived.

SalixIncendium said:

Can you choose what you believe?

To be clear, I'm not asking if you can choose your religion or if you can choose what to label yourself or your views.

Can you choose what to believe or disbelieve? Or are such core convictions or biases inherent in the individual based on experiences? Or are they based on something else? If so, what?

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You can choose partially, but partially your beliefs are determined by the choices you made before you knew what your actions even meant.

We as much discover in ourselves what it is that moves and drives us as we do pick the words like some sort of trinket to adorn ourselves with as if it were itself our truth.

URAVIP2ME said:

Man's history has proven that man can't successfully direct his step, and this is why God is going to have Jesus step in to bring ' healing ' to earth's nations as promised at Revelation 22:2.
Whether one believes this or not, this is what the Bible is happily teaching us.

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So what was it that convinced you and made you believe what you've said above is true?

Satans_Serrated_Edge said:

I really don't care who said what in what fictional tale, no offense.

I care about the real world that we live in.

In this world when you believe all swans are white, a single black swan should dispel that belief and replace it with a new one.

But even in your story Saul was fed input that lead him to believe differently. It wasn't a choice so much as a confrontation with experience that left him unable to believe as he had before.

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But no life truths are ever that simple for the one black (ugly) swan can be seen as a lovely duck.

Truth is rarely as simple as a logical syllogism. There are always many moving parts. When one tries to wield a simple rule as a sword for deciding things, that sword or its wielder is always broken by the diversity of reality.

Satans_Serrated_Edge said:

...
I care about the real world that we live in.

In this world when you believe all swans are white, a single black swan should dispel that belief and replace it with a new one.
...

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Well, what is the real world? I have never seen it. I mean if someone says a dog is black, then I can check and see if the dog is black.
So how do I see a real world? I don't. Real is no different that God. It is a belief and a word that has no objective referent. Real is an subjective idea.
You can test it. Can you see real? Touch it or use other sensory experience? What is real measured in? What is the scientific measurement standard that you measure real in?
That there is a real world is not true of the world.

Now about care. That is not like a black swan. It like real has no objective referent and no scientific measurement standard. It is subjective and based on individual and relative feelings.
I accept that you care as you care, but I don't accept that your subjectivity is that standard of a "we". You don't speak for a "we" and neither do I. You don't decide how I care and what I care about and neither do I in reverse.

So to sum up. You believe in something subjective - a real world - and you use a subjective standard - care - to talk for a "we" that you hold no objective authority over, as for what world I live in regards to my subjective beliefs.
See, that was easy. You are as subjective as religious believers.

Regards
Mikkel

Koldo said:

1) If a non-physical entity is claimed to have a causal relationship in the physical it is fair to ask for physical evidence as long as one is aware of the limitations involved.

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In this case the "cause" is so universal (literally) that the "physical evidence" is everything or nothing. Which makes the demand for it pointless.

Koldo said:

2) Can you explain in detail what thought process is involved when you choose what to believe ?
I take it you believe there is someone actually replying to this post of yours. Can you explain in detail how you have come to choose that ?

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Everyone chooses to accept as true whatever proposed ideas "work for them" within their experience and understanding of existence. Once we have accepted an idea as such, it becomes part of our experience and understanding of 'reality', that we then use to decide what new proposals we will accept as being true. Thus, our expectations (and demands for "evidence") are determined by our previous choices, and our bias becomes self-confirming.

night912 said:

You've just explained why we don't choose what we believe. We can't choose our experience.

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Of course we can. We spend most of our lives trying to choose what we will experience.

night912 said:

We also can't choose "understand," you either understand or you don't.

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According to what criteria are you making this assessment if not your own? Ignorance isn't an excuse even when we're trapped in it. Because at any time we could choose to acknowledge it, and thereby step outside it's trap.

night912 said:

And since what we believe is based on our experience and understanding, we also can't choose what we believe.

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But we do very often choose what we experience, how we experience it, and how we understand those experiences in hindsight. Which then forms the paradigm though which we experience anything new.

@SalixIncendium

The truth, the real and God.

It is simple to test for subjectivity as for these 3 words. You just test if you can do it differently than someone else.
Here is some examples:
Someone: I know the truth.
Me: I don't and I don't have to, yet I am still here.

Someone: We live in the real world.
Me: No, because real is subjective. I have just shown you that right here, because I can subjectively be different than you.

Someone: There is one true God.
Me: No, not in practice because any given belief in God is subjective.

So for choosing our beliefs; well, we all do that. We just do it with some variance, including what we believe about how to choose beliefs.
So yes, I properly believe in something, which is not real to you, yet real to me. Now is that really real? I don't know, because because in practice the everyday world, we apparently all are parts of, include the subjective and I haven't been able to reduce away subjectivity, so I am honest about, when I do something subjective.

I don't have to believe exactly like you. I accept that you believe differently and I accept that you can't believe, that I believe in something you don't subjectively consider real, yet I can. I have just do so. So what you are looking at, is evidence of the subjective. The world is in practice a combination of the subjective and the objective and evidence for these 2 are not the same kind of evidence.

Regards
Mikkel

PureX said:

Of course we can. We spend most of our lives trying to choose what we will experience.

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We can make choices that can lead to that experience, but we can't choose to actually having the experience. One cannot simply choose to experience losing. If someone hasn't loss a football game before, they cannot just choose to have the experience of losing a game. Let's say you want to have that experience. You can choose lose a game and make decisions that wil make you lose the game, but you cannot have the experience of losing a game until the moment you lose.

PureX said:

According to what criteria are you making this assessment if not your own? Ignorance isn't an excuse even when we're trapped in it. Because at any time we could choose to acknowledge it, and thereby step outside it's trap.

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Again you've just shown that we can choose to do something about it, but not actually being ignorant or not. Now how about you choose right now to understand astro physics and teach it to me so I can understand it myself.

Example:
If I want to be able to understand French, i can choose to acknowledge that I don't understand the language and make the decision to learn it. I can then choose to take a French class or have someone teach me. I can choose to study it everyday in order for me to learn and understand French. And I can try to choose as much as I want, but I won't be able to understand French until the moment it happens.

PureX said:

But we do very often choose what we experience, how we experience it, and how we understand those experiences in hindsight. Which then forms the paradigm though which we experience anything new.

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So tell me then, how do we choose to experience the feeling of anger and how we experience It? And how do we choose to experience anger just a little and aggressively? And I'm not talking about the actions taken for us to get angry. I'm talking about the experience of anger. How can someone understand love if they've never experienced it before.

WhyIsThatSo said:

They are based on the "experiences" of multiple ( even hundreds) of life times.
And some of us , as humans, are much "older" than others. (hint, hint).

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Not sure what you're attempting to drop hints of. By "older," I'm assuming you mean they've had more lifetimes in maya?

dfnj said:

Unicorns and leprechauns are not real ideas? I have a pretty clear idea what those two words mean. It's not like there's no meaning there.

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Did I say anything about "ideas?"

Don't add words to what I say to change the meaning. I find it rude and disrespectful.

SalixIncendium said:

Not sure what you're attempting to drop hints of. By "older," I'm assuming you mean they've had more lifetimes in maya?

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Yes, some people are much "older" souls than others.

Koldo said:

2) Can you explain in detail what thought process is involved when you choose what to believe ?
I take it you believe there is someone actually replying to this post of yours. Can you explain in detail how you have come to choose that ?

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PureX said:

Everyone chooses to accept as true whatever proposed ideas "work for them" within their experience and understanding of existence. Once we have accepted an idea as such, it becomes part of our experience and understanding of 'reality', that we then use to decide what new proposals we will accept as being true. Thus, our expectations (and demands for "evidence") are determined by our previous choices, and our bias becomes self-confirming.

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PureX,
You didn't even explain it. All you did was skipped the explanation and asserted that "everyone chooses to accept .."

And choosing to allow new ideas, does not explain how and why we determine to believe.

mikkel_the_dane said:

Well, what is the real world? I have never seen it. I mean if someone says a dog is black, then I can check and see if the dog is black.
So how do I see a real world? I don't. Real is no different that God. It is a belief and a word that has no objective referent. Real is an subjective idea.
You can test it. Can you see real? Touch it or use other sensory experience? What is real measured in? What is the scientific measurement standard that you measure real in?
That there is a real world is not true of the world.

Now about care. That is not like a black swan. It like real has no objective referent and no scientific measurement standard. It is subjective and based on individual and relative feelings.
I accept that you care as you care, but I don't accept that your subjectivity is that standard of a "we". You don't speak for a "we" and neither do I. You don't decide how I care and what I care about and neither do I in reverse.

So to sum up. You believe in something subjective - a real world - and you use a subjective standard - care - to talk for a "we" that you hold no objective authority over, as for what world I live in regards to my subjective beliefs.
See, that was easy. You are as subjective as religious believers.

Regards
Mikkel

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Sigh.

Word salad.