Man made traditions from the Church or the Word of God - Who do you believe and follow?

sojourner · Mar 9, 2020

3rdAngel said:
The challenge I am putting up here in this OP is for anyone to show even one scripture that says God's 4th Commandment of the 10 commandments (Exodus 20:8-11) which was spoken and written by God himself to his people, has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday (or the first day of the week) as a Holy day.

Can anyone please show me where in all the bible does is say (SOLA SCRIPTURA; Scripture only please)...

In order to set such a rigid criterion (sola scriptura), you'd have to prove that a) sola scriptura is a bona fide doctrine of the church, and b) that all Christian acts and experiences are contained within the bible.

You can't prove either of those things where the historic and Orthodox church is concerned, so right off the bat, your "challenge" is a false challenge. It's rigged so that, no matter what anyone says, you'll win. How? By insisting upon false criteria that are not in place as determining factors.

You can claim that "The bible is on my side," even though it isn't. Further, since you cannot prove that the bible is the ground of the Faith, you cannot assume that just because it isn't explicitly addressed in the bible, it isn't valid doctrine. Even Jesus himself weighed and turned aside "what is written" because it just didn't bear out in reality.

A good example is where Genesis infers that the earth is flat. Rather than stick our heads in the sand and either claim that, against all scientific evidence, the world must be flat, or that "the bible doesn't infer that," we simply live in the real world and realize that those who wrote the creation myth didn't have all the scientific evidence before them, and that they were mistaken. That mistake probably has no real bearing on either cosmology or on the disposition of our souls.

Your whole OP is about trying to get the rest of us to join you in sticking our heads in the sand.

3rdAngel · Mar 10, 2020

sojourner said:
They are your interpretations and I simply don’t believe them.

Sorry that is just a cop out. The scriptures speak for themselves. You not believeing them does not make them say something they are not saying.

sojourner said:
Stop gaslighting.

Sharing scriptures is not gaslighting. It is called telling the truth.

3rdAngel said: ↑ That is my point. You cannot know God's Word unless God is your guide and teacher

Your response..

sojourner said:
I disagree. This is about exegeting human texts, not “knowing” something by magic that we can’t even define well. You have yet to provide adequate answers about what “God’s word” is.

This is simply you disagreeing with Gods Word again. Please read *ISAIAH 55:6-9; 1 CORINTHIANS 2:14;ISAIAH 28:9-10; JOHN 14:26

sojourner said:
Jesus said that leaven (a substance found in nature) is like (reveals) the kin-dom of God. But you say that the kin-dom is only revealed through this ineffable “God’s word” that you refuse to define.

JESUS also said beware the leaven of the Scribes and Pharisees the leaven representing doctrine or teachings *MATTHEW 16:6-12. The leaven JESUS is talking about that reveals God's kingdom is His teachings which is the Word of God you do not believe.

sojourner said:
I’m sorry. They are included in the Bible (with the exception of Thomas).

No they are not included in the bible. They are apocrypha or works, usually written, of unknown authorship or of doubtful origin which is the reason they were never included.

sojourner said:
Yah, I did. You’re mistaken, just as you are about everything else in this fantasy “reality” you keep posting.

Not really. I believe there is only reality and truth in God's Word which are the very scriptures you do not believe. Anything outside of God's Word is a fantasy and a lie. There is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed come judgment day.

3rdAngel · Mar 10, 2020

sojourner said:
In order to set such a rigid criterion (sola scriptura), you'd have to prove that a) sola scriptura is a bona fide doctrine of the church, and b) that all Christian acts and experiences are contained within the bible.

There is no rigid guidelines. The OP title is "Man made traditions from the Church or the Word of God - Who do you believe and follow?" This OP is only showing that "SUNDAY WORSHIP" is not biblical and there is no scripture in all of God's Word that says God's 4th commandment is now abolished and we are now commanded to keep "SUNDAY" as a Holy day. This is a man made teaching and traditions that breaks the commandments of God handed down by biblical BABYLON the great mother of harlots of REVELATION 14:8:11; REVELATION 17:1-6 and REVELATION 18:1-5

sojourner said:
You can't prove either of those things where the historic and Orthodox church is concerned, so right off the bat, your "challenge" is a false challenge. It's rigged so that, no matter what anyone says, you'll win. How? By insisting upon false criteria that are not in place as determining factors.

Sure can. The Church of Christ who is God's true ISRAEL are all those who believe and follow God's Word. The Church is made up of all those who believe the writting and teachings of JESUS and the apostles and prophets.

sojourner said:
You can claim that "The bible is on my side," even though it isn't. Further, since you cannot prove that the bible is the ground of the Faith, you cannot assume that just because it isn't explicitly addressed in the bible, it isn't valid doctrine. Even Jesus himself weighed and turned aside "what is written" because it just didn't bear out in reality.

Well thankyou the part that is correct I can indeed claim that the bible is on my side. If that were not true you would have provided scripture already to answer a question provided in the OP. Yet here we are 26+ pages latter no one has answered a single question with the scriptures, proving that SUNDAY WHORSHIP is simply a man made teaching and tradition that breaks the commandments of God that is not biblical. JESUS was in fact the one that always quoted scripture for everthing that he did and tells is to live by them.

sojourner said:
A good example is where Genesis infers that the earth is flat. Rather than stick our heads in the sand and either claim that, against all scientific evidence, the world must be flat, or that "the bible doesn't infer that," we simply live in the real world and realize that those who wrote the creation myth didn't have all the scientific evidence before them, and that they were mistaken. That mistake probably has no real bearing on either cosmology or on the disposition of our souls.

Infers is simply your opinion and is not what the scriptures teach. This is simply another good example you of you denying God's Word and not believing the scriptures.

sojourner said:
Your whole OP is about trying to get the rest of us to join you in sticking our heads in the sand.

Not really. Your only sticking your head in the sand if you cannot see or your closing your eye to the fact that your following man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God that are not biblical. JESUS tells us that those who knowingly break God's commandments in order to follow man made teachings and traditions are not following God *MATTHEW 15:2-9.

God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word) and follow him. Those who do not hear and do not follow are not God's Sheep.

sojourner · Mar 10, 2020

3rdAngel said:
Sorry that is just a cop out

No, it’s not a cop-out. You’re providing your interpretation of the texts. You’re tacitly saying that the texts you provide mean something, or you wouldn’t provide them. But the texts don’t mean what you imply they mean — and you haven’t provided any exegesis for them to show that they mean what you think they mean.

Plus, you’re using the term “cop-out” wrong.

3rdAngel said:
Sharing scriptures is not gaslighting. It is called telling the truth

It’s gaslighting because you’re insisting that a false statement is real. The texts you provide aren’t cogent to the issues.

3rdAngel said:
This is simply you disagreeing with Gods Word again

No, it’s disagreeing with how you wish to treat the texts.

3rdAngel said:
JESUS also said beware the leaven of the Scribes and Pharisees the leaven representing doctrine or teachings

What’s your point? That items in nature can only point to one thing? That’s ludicrous.

3rdAngel said:
The leaven JESUS is talking about that reveals God's kingdom is His teachings which is the Word of God you do not believe

No, that’s not what the text explicitly says, nor is it implied. That’s a faulty interpretation on your part.

3rdAngel said:
No they are not included in the bible

I’m sorry, but they are.

3rdAngel said:
Not really

Yes really. You’re trying to hide behind the Bible and it ain’t working for you. The fact that I said something can’t be refuted by the Bible.

sojourner · Mar 10, 2020

3rdAngel said:
There is no rigid guidelines

Insisting on a “bible only” argument is a rigid guideline considering the subject matter. We all know what the Bible says. But we also know that the action taken wasn’t recorded in the texts. That doesn’t mean that the actions are invalid — it simply means that they aren’t in the texts. By insisting that “everything be in the Bible,” you’re invalidating much of the Tradition of the church. Heck! Not even the process of selecting the canon is in the Bible. Does that mean that the canon or scripture is invalid? If so, then the Bible itself is invalid, because the Bible ain’t in the Bible. Do you see how convoluted your “reasoning” is?

3rdAngel said:
Sure can

Fine. Let’s see the documentation that the early church and the Orthodox Church operated out of “bible only.” Drag ‘em out so we can see them.

3rdAngel said:
Well thankyou the part that is correct I can indeed claim that the bible is on my side

You’re intentionally misquoting me (this is against forum rules). You omitted the next part where I explain why making the claim is disingenuous.

3rdAngel said:
If that were not true you would have provided scripture already to answer a question provided in the OP

No, because sola scriptura is heretical and I don’t play that game.

3rdAngel said:
Yet here we are 26+ pages latter no one has answered a single question with the scriptures, proving that SUNDAY WHORSHIP is simply a man made teaching and tradition that breaks the commandments of God that is not biblical.

Did you read my post? I explained why holding everyone to a “biblical answer” is a set-up that benefits your position. It’s an unfair scenario. See above for why.

3rdAngel said:
Infers is simply your opinion and is not what the scriptures teach

NO. The scriptures infer that the earth is flat. That’s what exegesis does — it pulls out of the text what the text is saying.

3rdAngel said:
This is simply another good example you of you denying God's Word and not believing the scriptures

No, it’s an example of actually exegeting the texts (something you apparently don’t know how to do).

3rdAngel said:
Not really

Now who’s “jumping up and down yelling ‘No!’?” Provide reasons why. You’re only providing your opinion.

3rdAngel · Mar 13, 2020

sojourner said:
No, it’s not a cop-out. You’re providing your interpretation of the texts. You’re tacitly saying that the texts you provide mean something, or you wouldn’t provide them. But the texts don’t mean what you imply they mean — and you haven’t provided any exegesis for them to show that they mean what you think they mean.

Nonesense. As posted earlier the scriptures provdided are evidence that support what is being shared here. You denying them with your words is simply you not believing the scriptures that are shared here. To me only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them. You denying God's Word with your words do not make God's Word not true. It is simply you not believing the scriptures. So your argument is with God who's Word you deny not me

sojourner said:
Plus, you’re using the term “cop-out” wrong.

Not really. It was used to address the fact that everytime the scriptures are provided as evidence to show why you are in error your response is to simply deny them or ignore them.

sojourner said:
It’s gaslighting because you’re insisting that a false statement is real. The texts you provide aren’t cogent to the issues.

Nonsense. God's Word is not a false statement but is the standard of truth. You providing your own words to deny God's Word is a better definition of gaslighting in my opinion as only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that knowingly break the commandments of God.

sojourner said:
No, it’s disagreeing with how you wish to treat the texts.

You quoting you over the scriptures is simply you not believing God's Word nothing more and nothing less and is evidence as to how you treat the scriptures.

sojourner said:
What’s your point? That items in nature can only point to one thing? That’s ludicrous. No, that’s not what the text explicitly says, nor is it implied. That’s a faulty interpretation on your part.

Nonsense. If you read the post instead of part quoting me you would understand that JESUS also said beware the leaven of the Scribes and Pharisees the leaven representing doctrine or teachings *MATTHEW 16:6-12. The leaven JESUS is talking about that reveals God's kingdom you quoted from earlier is His teachings which is the Word of God you do not believe. What is ludicrous is you simply trying to quote you in denial of the scriptures that disagree with you.

sojourner said:
Yes really. You’re trying to hide behind the Bible and it ain’t working for you. The fact that I said something can’t be refuted by the Bible.

Indeed I hide behind the bible and it is working for me because it is evidence of the teachings of JESUS, the prophets and the apostles that agree with what I am sharing here. They are God's Word and not my words. Why it is not working for you is that you simply provide your own words that are not God's. Therefore your argument is with God not me. Only God's Word is true my dear friend and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God.

3rdAngel · Mar 13, 2020

sojourner said:
Insisting on a “bible only” argument is a rigid guideline considering the subject matter. We all know what the Bible says. But we also know that the action taken wasn’t recorded in the texts. That doesn’t mean that the actions are invalid — it simply means that they aren’t in the texts. By insisting that “everything be in the Bible,” you’re invalidating much of the Tradition of the church. Heck! Not even the process of selecting the canon is in the Bible. Does that mean that the canon or scripture is invalid? If so, then the Bible itself is invalid, because the Bible ain’t in the Bible. Do you see how convoluted your “reasoning” is?

Actions taken are based only on the teachings of JESUS, the prophets and the Apostles which is the Word of God that we are to live by. It is not difficult and it is not rigid if you have been born again to love. There is nothing wrong with traditions if they are biblical and lead others to God and his Word which is where we find him. Where traditions are bad is if they lead one away from God and his Word and lead others to break God's commandments. This is the teachings of JESUS spoken in his very Words you deny in MATTHEW 15:2-9.

sojourner said:
Fine. Let’s see the documentation that the early church and the Orthodox Church operated out of “bible only.” Drag ‘em out so we can see them.

You need to read your bible. According to the scriptures I believe salvation is by faith in God's Word. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God *ROMANS 10:17. The true church was and is always only those who believe and follow God's Word *JOHN 10:26-27.

sojourner said:
You’re intentionally misquoting me (this is against forum rules). You omitted the next part where I explain why making the claim is disingenuous.

Nonsense, your only part quoting me...

sojourner said: ↑ You can claim that "The bible is on my side," even though it isn't. Further, since you cannot prove that the bible is the ground of the Faith, you cannot assume that just because it isn't explicitly addressed in the bible, it isn't valid doctrine. Even Jesus himself weighed and turned aside "what is written" because it just didn't bear out in reality.

This was responded with...

3rdAngel wrote: Well thankyou the part that is correct I can indeed claim that the bible is on my side. If that were not true you would have provided scripture already to answer a question provided in the OP. Yet here we are 26+ pages latter no one has answered a single question with the scriptures, proving that SUNDAY WHORSHIP is simply a man made teaching and tradition that breaks the commandments of God that is not biblical. JESUS was in fact the one that always quoted scripture for everthing that he did and tells is to live by them.

sojourner said:
No, because sola scriptura is heretical and I don’t play that game.

Nonsense. I believe your words are simply trying to justify not following the teachings of JESUS the prophets and apostles. What is herectical according to the scriptures is not believing and following the teachings of JESUS, the prophets and the Apostles.

sojourner said:
Did you read my post? I explained why holding everyone to a “biblical answer” is a set-up that benefits your position. It’s an unfair scenario. See above for why.

Indeed I did. To me only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it over man made teachings and treaditions that deny Gods' Word. Yet here we are 26+ pages latter no one has answered a single question with the scriptures, proving that SUNDAY WHORSHIP is simply a man made teaching and tradition that breaks the commandments of God that is not biblical.

sojourner said:
NO. The scriptures infer that the earth is flat. That’s what exegesis does — it pulls out of the text what the text is saying.

Nonesense an inferrence is simply you reading into the scriptures something that the scriptures do not say this is called eisegesis which means to read into the scriptures one's own ideas that are not there.

sojourner said:
No, it’s an example of actually exegeting the texts (something you apparently don’t know how to do).

Nonesense your simply you reading into the scriptures something that the scriptures do not say this is called eisegesis which means to read into the scriptures one's own ideas that are not there.

sojourner said:
Now who’s “jumping up and down yelling ‘No!’?” Provide reasons why. You’re only providing your opinion.

Not at all. Your simply part quoting me again. I posted that your only sticking your head in the sand if you cannot see or your closing your eye to the fact that your following man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God that are not biblical. JESUS tells us that those who knowingly break God's commandments in order to follow man made teachings and traditions are not following God *MATTHEW 15:2-9. God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word) and follow him. Those who do not hear and do not follow are not God's Sheep.

Faithofchristian · Mar 14, 2020

3rdAngel said:
Hi all,

The challenge I am putting up here in this OP is for anyone to show even one scripture that says God's 4th Commandment of the 10 commandments (Exodus 20:8-11) which was spoken and written by God himself to his people, has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday (or the first day of the week) as a Holy day.

Can anyone please show me where in all the bible does is say (SOLA SCRIPTURA; Scripture only please)...

1. That God's 4th commandments 7th day Sabbath has been abolished?

2. That Jesus is a Sabbath?

3. The Sabbath (seventh day) was ever changed from the seventh to the first day of the week?

4. Where we are told to keep the first day of the week holy?

5. Where the first day of the week (Sunday) is ever called a holy day?

6. That says that Jesus ever kept the first day (Sunday)?

7. That tells us to keep the first day in honour of the resurrection of Christ?

8. Where the first day is ever given any sacred name?

9. That affirms that any of the apostles ever kept the first day as the Sabbath?

10. From any apostolic writings that authorizes Sunday observance as the Sabbath of God?

11. Where we are told not to work on the first day of the week?

12. That says the seventh day is no longer God's Sabbath day?

13. That says the seventh day Sabbath is ABOLISHED?

14. Where the apostles ever taught any convert to keep the first day of the week as a Sabbath?

15. Where the first day was ever appointed to be kept as the Lord's Day?

16. Where the first day of the week is ever called the Lord's Day?

17. That says that the first day of the week was ever sanctified and hallowed as a day of rest?

18. That says that the Father or the Son (Jesus) rested on the first day of the week?

19. That says that Jesus, Paul or any other of the apostles taught anyone to observe the first day of the week as the Sabbath?

20. That calls the seventh day the “Jewish Sabbath” or one text that calls Sunday the “Christian Sabbath”?

21. Telling man to keep the first day of the week holy or to worship or rest on the first day of the week?

22. Authorizing anyone to set aside God's Sabbath and observe any other day?

23. Showing any of the apostles keeping the first day of the week as the Sabbath?

24. Authorizing someone to set aside the fourth Commandment and observe any other day of the week?

25. Where any apostle taught us to keep the first day of the week as the Sabbath?

26. Declaring that the seventh day is no longer the Eternal Sabbath day?

27. Where Sunday is now appointed to be kept as the New Testament Sabbath or holy day?

...................

Something to think about here because we are all accountable to God come judgment day where we will all be judged by the Word of God (John 12:47-48).

God's Word makes it very clear that if we follow the teachings of men over the Word of God we are not following God...

MATTHEW 15:3-9 [3],
[3], But he answered and said unto them, Why do you also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
[4], For God commanded, saying, Honor your father and mother: and, He that curses father or mother, let him die the death.
[5], But you say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift devoted to God, whatsoever you might have received from me;
[6], And honors not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have you made the commandment of God void by your tradition.
[7], You hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
[8], These people draw near unto me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
[9], But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

If we are KNOWINGLY breaking ANY of God's commandments we are not worshipping God.

Look forward to your thoughts...

So where's your proof of evidence to give in what book and chapter and verses where that is written at that the Sabbath day as been abolished as you say.
And where exactly is it written at that Sunday is the command to keep..
Besides what you say..

3rdAngel · Mar 14, 2020

Faithofchristian said:
So where's your proof of evidence to give in what book and chapter and verses where that is written at that the Sabbath day as been abolished as you say.
And where exactly is it written at that Sunday is the command to keep..
Besides what you say..

That is the point of the OP. There is no scripture that says God's 4th commandment SEVENTH DAY Sabbath of God's 4th commandment has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day. Sunday whorship is simply a man made tradition and teaching that has lead many to depart the faith once given to the Saints and break God's law.

sojourner · Mar 16, 2020

3rdAngel said:
Actions taken are based only on the teachings of JESUS, the prophets and the Apostles which is the Word of God that we are to live by.

No, that's not what I meant. You're confused.

3rdAngel said:
You need to read your bible.

The canon isn't biblical. Therefore, the bible isn't "biblical." You have yet to prove your position.

3rdAngel said:
Nonsense, your only part quoting me...

You're gaslighting again.

3rdAngel said:
What is herectical according to the scriptures is not believing and following the teachings of JESUS, the prophets and the Apostles.

Nope. Sola scriptura isn't a biblical concept.

3rdAngel said:
Indeed I did.

You're either lying or gaslighting again.

3rdAngel said:
Nonesense an inferrence is simply you reading into the scriptures something that the scriptures do not say this is called eisegesis which means to read into the scriptures one's own ideas that are not there.

The word translated as "firmament" (sky) is raqiya. Its context meaning is "a hammered-out dome." The bible says the sky is a dome. That's what it says. A dome cannot cover a round earth. A dome can only cover a disc-shaped (flat) earth. Therefore, the biblical concept is that the earth is flat. Not of that is inference; it's logical deduction. That's not eisegesis. Exegesis is figuring out what the bible actually says. That's what I've done. Either you don't know the difference between the two or else you're gaslighting again.

3rdAngel said:
Nonesense your simply you reading into the scriptures something that the scriptures do not say this is called eisegesis which means to read into the scriptures one's own ideas that are not there.

See above.

3rdAngel said:
Not at all. Your simply part quoting me again. I posted that your only sticking your head in the sand if you cannot see or your closing your eye to the fact that your following man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God that are not biblical.

It's all man-made teaching. Jesus was a man. Therefore, man-made teaching. And the teachings were written by men into the bible. It's all "man-made." Your argument hoping to discredit everything you don't believe in is a failure.

sojourner · Mar 16, 2020

3rdAngel said:
That is the point of the OP. There is no scripture that says God's 4th commandment SEVENTH DAY Sabbath of God's 4th commandment has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day.

The point of the OP is moot, since A) the laws are only binding upon Jews according to Paul in the bible, and B) the Faith has never been predicated upon the "bible only" heresy. Your insistence on the counter of these two points does not change the reality of the points.

3rdAngel · Mar 16, 2020

sojourner said:
No, that's not what I meant. You're confused.

Nonsense, as posted earlier there is nothing wrong with traditions if they are biblical and lead others to God and his Word which is where we find him. Where traditions are bad is if they lead one away from God and his Word and lead others to break God's commandments. This is the teachings of JESUS spoken in his very Words you deny in MATTHEW 15:2-9.

sojourner said:
The canon isn't biblical. Therefore, the bible isn't "biblical." You have yet to prove your position.

Goodness, and your a teacher in a church making these claims. I am glad I am not own of your flock

sojourner said:
You're gaslighting again.

Nonsense. As posted earlier telling the truth and sharing God's Word is not gaslighting it is telling the truth. You part quoting me and trying to build arguments around what I am not claiming is not being honest in my opinion.

sojourner said:
Nope. Sola scriptura isn't a biblical concept.

This is where I believe you are confused. The church was built on the teachings (words) of JESUS and the Apostles and prophets. Yep the Word of God. Stating sola scriptura is not biblical is a lie and is not biblical because the truth of God's Word exposes lies. So I believe there is a vested interest in your claims and I do not believe them.

sojourner said:
The word translated as "firmament" (sky) is raqiya. Its context meaning is "a hammered-out dome." The bible says the sky is a dome. That's what it says. A dome cannot cover a round earth. A dome can only cover a disc-shaped (flat) earth. Therefore, the biblical concept is that the earth is flat. Not of that is inference; it's logical deduction. That's not eisegesis. Exegesis is figuring out what the bible actually says. That's what I've done. Either you don't know the difference between the two or else you're gaslighting again.

Your confused as wherever your standing in the earth is the visible arch of the sky -- firmament which is the Hebrew word meaning. This is similar to a dome. The english word dome was not invented until the 1500's. The Hebrew word in no way implies the earth is flat. The scriptures actually prove the earth is round because whereever one stands in the earth is it the visible arch of the sky. Are you sure your a teacher in a church?

.............

Transliteration
בִּרְקִ֣יעַ בִּרְקִ֥יעַ ברקיע הָרָקִ֑יעַ הָרָקִ֔יעַ הָרָקִ֙יעַ֙ הָרָקִֽיעַ׃ הָרָקִיעַ֒ הרקיע הרקיע׃ לָֽרָקִ֖יעַ לָרָקִ֑יעַ לָרָקִ֔יעַ לָרָקִ֖יעַ לָרָקִ֙יעַ֙ לרקיע רְקִ֥יעַ רָקִ֔יעַ רָקִ֖יעַ רקיע bir·qî·a‘ birKia birqîa‘ hā·rā·qî·a‘ harakia hārāqîa‘ lā·rā·qî·a‘ laraKia lārāqîa‘ rā·qî·a‘ raKia rāqîa‘ rə·qî·a‘ reKia rəqîa‘

raqia H7549

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
firmament From raqa'; properly, an expanse, i.e. The firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky -- firmament.

Strong's Concordance
raqia: an extended surface, expanse
Original Word: רָקִיעַ
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: raqia
Phonetic Spelling: (raw-kee'-ah)
Definition: an extended surface, expanse

Brown-Driver-Briggs
רָקִיעַ noun masculineGenesis 1:6 extended surface, (solid) expanse (as if beaten out; compare Job 37:18); — absolute ׳ר Ezekiel 1:22 +, construct ׳רְ Genesis 1:14 +; — ᵐ5 στερέωμα, ᵑ9 firmamentum, compare Syriac below √above; —
1 (flat) expanse (as if of ice, compare כְּעֵין הַקֶּרַח), as base, support (WklAltor. Forsch. iv. 347) Ezekiel 1:22,23,25(gloss ? compare Co Toy), Ezekiel 1:26 (supporting ׳י's throne). Hence (CoEzekiel 1:22)

2 the vault of heaven, or 'firmament,' regarded by Hebrews as solid, and supporting 'waters' above it, Genesis 1:6,7 (3 t. in verse); Genesis 1:8 (called שָׁמַיַם; all P), Psalm 19:2 ("" הַשָּׁמַיַם), ׳זֹהַר הָר Daniel 12:3; also ׳ר הַשָּׁמִיִם Genesis 1:14,15,17, ׳הַשּׁ ׳עַלמְּֿנֵי ר Genesis 1:20 (all P). **רְקִיעַ עֻזּוֺ Psalm 150:1 (suffix reference to ׳י).

17 Occurrences and uses of the Hebrew Word Firmament

Genesis 1:6
HEB: אֱלֹהִ֔ים יְהִ֥י רָקִ֖יעַ בְּת֣וֹךְ הַמָּ֑יִם
NAS: said, Let there be an expanse in the midst
KJV: said, Let there be a firmament in the midst
INT: God Let there be an expanse the midst of the waters

Genesis 1:7
HEB: אֱלֹהִים֮ אֶת־ הָרָקִיעַ֒ וַיַּבְדֵּ֗ל בֵּ֤ין
NAS: made the expanse, and separated
KJV: made the firmament, and divided
INT: made God the expanse and separated among

Genesis 1:7
HEB: אֲשֶׁר֙ מִתַּ֣חַת לָרָקִ֔יעַ וּבֵ֣ין הַמַּ֔יִם
NAS: were below the expanse from the waters
KJV: [were] under the firmament from the waters
INT: which under the expanse from the waters

Genesis 1:7
HEB: אֲשֶׁ֖ר מֵעַ֣ל לָרָקִ֑יעַ וַֽיְהִי־ כֵֽן׃
NAS: were above the expanse; and it was so.
KJV: [were] above the firmament: and it was so.
INT: which above the expanse and it was so

Genesis 1:8
HEB: וַיִּקְרָ֧א אֱלֹהִ֛ים לָֽרָקִ֖יעַ שָׁמָ֑יִם וַֽיְהִי־
NAS: called the expanse heaven.
KJV: called the firmament Heaven.
INT: called God the expanse heaven and there was

Genesis 1:14
HEB: יְהִ֤י מְאֹרֹת֙ בִּרְקִ֣יעַ הַשָּׁמַ֔יִם לְהַבְדִּ֕יל
NAS: Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens
KJV: Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven
INT: become Let there be lights the expanse of the heavens to separate

Genesis 1:15
HEB: וְהָי֤וּ לִמְאוֹרֹת֙ בִּרְקִ֣יעַ הַשָּׁמַ֔יִם לְהָאִ֖יר
NAS: and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens
KJV: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven
INT: them be for lights the expanse of the heavens to give

Genesis 1:17
HEB: אֹתָ֛ם אֱלֹהִ֖ים בִּרְקִ֣יעַ הַשָּׁמָ֑יִם לְהָאִ֖יר
NAS: placed them in the expanse of the heavens
KJV: set them in the firmament of the heaven
INT: placed God the expanse of the heavens to give

Genesis 1:20
HEB: עַל־ פְּנֵ֖י רְקִ֥יעַ הַשָּׁמָֽיִם׃
NAS: in the open expanse of the heavens.
KJV: in the open firmament of heaven.
INT: above the open expanse of the heavens

Psalm 19:1
HEB: יָ֝דָ֗יו מַגִּ֥יד הָרָקִֽיעַ׃
NAS: of God; And their expanse is declaring
KJV: of God; and the firmament sheweth his
INT: of his hands is declaring and their expanse

Psalm 150:1
HEB: בְּקָדְשׁ֑וֹ הַֽ֝לְל֗וּהוּ בִּרְקִ֥יעַ עֻזּֽוֹ׃
NAS: Praise Him in His mighty expanse.
KJV: praise him in the firmament of his power.
INT: his sanctuary Praise expanse his mighty

Ezekiel 1:22
HEB: רָאשֵׁ֤י הַחַיָּה֙ רָקִ֔יעַ כְּעֵ֖ין הַקֶּ֣רַח
NAS: [there was] something like an expanse, like the awesome
KJV: And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads
INT: the heads creature an expanse gleam of crystal

Ezekiel 1:23
HEB: וְתַ֙חַת֙ הָרָקִ֔יעַ כַּנְפֵיהֶ֣ם יְשָׁר֔וֹת
NAS: Under the expanse their wings
KJV: And under the firmament [were] their wings
INT: Under the expanse their wings straight

Ezekiel 1:25
HEB: ק֕וֹל מֵעַ֕ל לָרָקִ֖יעַ אֲשֶׁ֣ר עַל־
NAS: from above the expanse that was over
KJV: And there was a voice from the firmament that [was] over their heads,
INT: A voice above the expanse that was over

Ezekiel 1:26
HEB: וּמִמַּ֗עַל לָרָקִ֙יעַ֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר עַל־
NAS: Now above the expanse that was over
KJV: And above the firmament that [was] over their heads
INT: and above the expanse that was over

Ezekiel 10:1
HEB: וְהִנֵּ֤ה אֶל־ הָרָקִ֙יעַ֙ אֲשֶׁר֙ עַל־
NAS: and behold, in the expanse that was over
KJV: Then I looked, and, behold, in the firmament that was above the head
INT: and behold in the expanse that was over

Daniel 12:3
HEB: יַזְהִ֖רוּ כְּזֹ֣הַר הָרָקִ֑יעַ וּמַצְדִּיקֵי֙ הָֽרַבִּ֔ים
NAS: like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead
KJV: as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many
INT: will shine the brightness of the expanse lead the many

3rdAngel said: ↑ Not at all. Your simply part quoting me again. I posted that your only sticking your head in the sand if you cannot see or your closing your eye to the fact that your following man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God that are not biblical.

Your response...

sojourner said:
It's all man-made teaching. Jesus was a man. Therefore, man-made teaching. And the teachings were written by men into the bible. It's all "man-made." Your argument hoping to discredit everything you don't believe in is a failure.

Nonsense. Your post does not make sense to what you are quoting from which is talking about man made teachings and traditions that are not biblical and against the teachings of JESUS and the bible that break the commandments of God.

Hope this helps

3rdAngel · Mar 16, 2020

3rdAngel said: ↑ That is the point of the OP. There is no scripture that says God's 4th commandment SEVENTH DAY Sabbath of God's 4th commandment has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day. Sunday whorship is simply a man made tradition and teaching that has lead many to depart the faith once given to the Saints and break God's law.

Your response...

sojourner said:
The point of the OP is moot, since A) the laws are only binding upon Jews according to Paul in the bible, and B) the Faith has never been predicated upon the "bible only" heresy. Your insistence on the counter of these two points does not change the reality of the points.

Yet here we still are 26+ pages latter with your words denying God's Word and not a single scripture that says God's 4th commandment SEVENTH DAY Sabbath of God's 4th commandment has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day? You do know right as a teacher of a church that there was no JEW and no ISRAEL when the SABBATH was made for all mankind at creation right *GENESIS 2:1-3; MARK 2:27-28?

Sorry my friend but I believe it seems your post is the only thing that is mute. I believe it is your opinions that deny the teachings of JESUS, the Apostles and prophets (the Word of God) that God's true church is based on.

Hope this is helpful

sojourner · Mar 17, 2020

3rdAngel said:
Nonsense, as posted earlier there is nothing wrong with traditions if they are biblical

But as I said in the beginning, not all valid experiences are recorded in the bible. Even the bible states that not all Jesus' actions are written down in the bible. so, by your refuting my statement, you're refuting what the bible actually says.

3rdAngel said:
Goodness, and your a teacher in a church making these claims.

That's right! Because it's the truth. The canonization process is not mentioned in the bible. Therefore, according to you, that process is invalid. The bible is only the bible through the process of canonization. The bible is a product of "tradition according to men," that is, the bishops who set the canon (finally) around the year 450 ce.

3rdAngel said:
I am glad I am not own of your flock

Ditto. Your divisiveness and subterfuge would not be tolerated long in a real church.

3rdAngel said:
Nonsense. As posted earlier telling the truth and sharing God's Word is not gaslighting it is telling the truth.

Yah, except you're not doing that and claiming that you are doing that. That's gaslighting.

3rdAngel said:
This is where I believe you are confused. The church was built on the teachings (words) of JESUS and the Apostles and prophets.

Those teachings are included in the bible, but they are not the bible.

3rdAngel said:
Your confused as wherever your standing in the earth is the visible arch of the sky -- firmament which is the Hebrew word meaning. This is similar to a dome. The english word dome was not invented until the 1500's. The Hebrew word in no way implies the earth is flat. The scriptures actually prove the earth is round because whereever one stands in the earth is it the visible arch of the sky. Are you sure your a teacher in a church?

Uh huh. The word literally means "a hammered-out bowl." A bowl is a dome shape. That's what the bible actually says -- that the sky is a hammered-out bowl. A bowl will only cover a disc shape. You're inferring something from that, but inferences aren't exegesis. Inferences are eisegesis. when the biblical writers looked around, they believed they were standing on a disc shape. That concept is congruent with the cultures from which the creation myths come. In fact, the bible goes on to say that this rigid bowl keeps out the waters above it. We know that there is no water in space. You're making excuses based on copy-and-paste of a language you clearly don't understand.

3rdAngel said:
Nonsense.

So, which is "nonsense?" That Jesus was fully human, or that the writers were fully human?

sojourner · Mar 17, 2020

3rdAngel said:
Yet here we still are 26+ pages latter with your words denying God's Word

My words aren't denying God's word. My words are saying who is bound to keep the Law and to assert (along with the bible) that not everything is in the bible.

3rdAngel said:
not a single scripture that says God's 4th commandment SEVENTH DAY Sabbath of God's 4th commandment has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day?

Right. But as we know, and as you're conveniently leaving out, the Faith is a living Faith -- not a museum piece. Those who are not in the Jewish tradition (according to the bible) aren't bound to keep the Jewish law.

3rdAngel said:
but I believe it seems your post is the only thing that is mute

The term is moot. Look it up. Learn it. Know it. Live it.

3rdAngel · Mar 17, 2020

sojourner said:
But as I said in the beginning, not all valid experiences are recorded in the bible. Even the bible states that not all Jesus' actions are written down in the bible. so, by your refuting my statement, you're refuting what the bible actually says.

As posted earlier there is nothing wrong with traditions if they are biblical and lead others to God and his Word which is where we find him. Where traditions are bad is if they lead one away from God and his Word and lead others to break God's commandments. This is the teachings of JESUS spoken in his very Words you deny in MATTHEW 15:2-9.

sojourner said:
That's right! Because it's the truth. The canonization process is not mentioned in the bible. Therefore, according to you, that process is invalid. The bible is only the bible through the process of canonization. The bible is a product of "tradition according to men," that is, the bishops who set the canon (finally) around the year 450 ce.

I do not believe what you posted is the truth at all. You posted this to what I was responding to and it does not make any sense....

sojourner said: ↑ The canon isn't biblical. Therefore, the bible isn't "biblical." You have yet to prove your position.

How can the bible be not biblical when it is the bible and hoe can the canon be not biblical when it makes up the content of the bible? I believe you see the physical but are unable to see the spiritual which is why you cannot see that the bible is the product of God who is in control of His Word. As posted earlier there is nothing wrong with traditions if they are biblical and lead others to God and his Word which is where we find him. Where traditions are bad is if they lead one away from God and his Word and lead others to break God's commandments. This is the teachings of JESUS spoken in his very Words you deny in MATTHEW 15:2-9.

sojourner said:
Ditto. Your divisiveness and subterfuge would not be tolerated long in a real church.

The real church are all those who believe and follow God's Word to which I am welcome. I believe the scriptures teach that the church of the antichrist is the one the denys God's Word and leads others away from Gods' Word in order to follow man made traditions and teachings that break the commandments of God *MATTHEW 15:2-9. God's people (the church) hear God's Voice and follow him. Those who do not hear and do not follow are not God's church *JOHN 10:26-27.

sojourner said:
Yah, except you're not doing that and claiming that you are doing that. That's gaslighting.

Nonsense. I have only shared God's Word with you which is the truth. Perhaps you doubting yourself is God whos words they are calling you to the truth and His Spirit bearing witness that only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God.

3rdAngel said: ↑ This is where I believe you are confused. The church was built on the teachings (words) of JESUS and the Apostles and prophets. Yep the Word of God. Stating sola scriptura is not biblical is a lie and is not biblical because the truth of God's Word exposes lies. So I believe there is a vested interest in your claims and I do not believe them.

Your response...

sojourner said:
Those teachings are included in the bible, but they are not the bible.

If they are included in the bible then they are a part of the bible and the teachings of JESUS, the Apostles and the prophets.

sojourner said:
Uh huh. The word literally means "a hammered-out bowl." A bowl is a dome shape. That's what the bible actually says -- that the sky is a hammered-out bowl. A bowl will only cover a disc shape. You're inferring something from that, but inferences aren't exegesis. Inferences are eisegesis. when the biblical writers looked around, they believed they were standing on a disc shape. That concept is congruent with the cultures from which the creation myths come. In fact, the bible goes on to say that this rigid bowl keeps out the waters above it. We know that there is no water in space. You're making excuses based on copy-and-paste of a language you clearly don't understand.

Uh huh, your just repeating yourself as this has already been addressed in detail in the Hebrew to show firmament does not mean the earth is flat at all. You have simply ignored the post you are quoting from and inferring things not written in the scriptures (eisegesis). This is evidenced in the scripture context to which all 17 scripture references apply to and where the Hebrew word firmament is used. This is addressed already in detail in the bottom half of post # 512 linked. raqia H7549 literally means visible arch of the sky -- firmament which is the Hebrew word meaning. The Hebrew word in no way implies the earth is flat. The scriptures actually prove the earth is round because where ever one stands in the earth is it the visible arch of the sky. What I am surprised about is that your a teacher in a church that does not know these things.

sojourner said:
So, which is "nonsense?" That Jesus was fully human, or that the writers were fully human?

No, your response did not make any sense to what you were quoting from which was talking about man made teachings and traditions that are not biblical and against the teachings of JESUS and the bible that break the commandments of God are not biblical and lead people away from God and His Word.

Hope this helps

3rdAngel · Mar 17, 2020

sojourner said:
My words aren't denying God's word. My words are saying who is bound to keep the Law and to assert (along with the bible) that not everything is in the bible.

I believe you are denying God's Word because when I post it you simply ignore and do not believe it. As posted earlier the Church is made up of the all those who believe and follow the teachings (the Words) of JESUS, the Apostles and the prophets (the Word of God) *JOHN 10:26-27. I believe the church of the antichrist seeks to lead others away from God and His Word to depart the faith to follow man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God *MATTHEW 15:2-9. This is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 JOHN 3:6-10; 1 JOHN 2:3-4; REVELATION 14:12; REVELATION 22:14.

sojourner said:
Right. But as we know, and as you're conveniently leaving out, the Faith is a living Faith -- not a museum piece. Those who are not in the Jewish tradition (according to the bible) aren't bound to keep the Jewish law.

Faith only comes by believing and following God's Word as it is written "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God *ROMANS 10:17. If you are not believing and following God's Word the scriptures teach your faith is dead and not faith at all *JAMES 2:18-20; 26. As posted earlier there was no JEW and no ISRAEL when God created the seventh day Sabbath rest in creation for all mankind *GENESIS 2:1-3; MARK 2:27-28. According to God's Word (not mine) in the new covenant, I believe God's LAW (10 commandments) give us the knowledge of Good and Evil; Sin and Righteousness *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172 and if we break any one of them we stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11.

God's 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when we break it (EXODUS 20:8-11) and just like any other commandment if we knowingly break it when we have been given a knowledge of the truth we stand guilty before God of sin *ACTS 17:30-31; JAMES 4:17 and if we continue in sin according to the scriptures there remains no more sacrifice for sin but a fearful looking forward to of the judgment to come *HEBREWS 10:26-27.

May you receive God's Word and be blessed. Ignoring it does not make it disappear as it will be our judge come judgment day *JOHN 12:47-48

sojourner · Mar 17, 2020

3rdAngel said:
As posted earlier there is nothing wrong with traditions if they are biblical

Nor is there anything wrong with traditions that are not biblical.

3rdAngel said:
I do not believe what you posted is the truth at all.

What you believe is immaterial. What is reality is compelling.

3rdAngel said:
How can the bible be not biblical when it is the bible and hoe can the canon be not biblical when it makes up the content of the bible?

Because you said that actions must be in the bible. But the action of canonization (that is, deciding what is biblical and what is not) is not to be found anywhere in the bible. This is where the "bible only" crowd really runs into trouble. The very action that defines the parameters of the bible isn't biblical. It presents a conundrum that cannot be resolved logically. Therefore, there must be something wrong with the "bible only" premise.

3rdAngel said:
The real church are all those who believe and follow God's Word to which I am welcome.

You're certainly not reflecting that welcome of which you claim to be a representative. Your diatribes against Catholicism have been nothing short of closed-minded and nasty.

3rdAngel said:
Nonsense. I have only shared God's Word with you which is the truth.

No; you've shared your interpretations. There's a big difference. And the fact that you're saying otherwise is an untruth.

3rdAngel said:
If they are included in the bible then they are a part of the bible and the teachings of JESUS, the Apostles and the prophets.

They are in the bible, but they are not "the bible."

3rdAngel said:
No, your response did not make any sense

I'm not surprised. Your posts present a deficiency in both theological foundation and exegetical epistemology.

sojourner · Mar 17, 2020

3rdAngel said:
I believe you are denying God's Word because when I post it you simply ignore and do not believe it.

I'm denying the veracity of your interpretations.

3rdAngel said:
Faith only comes by believing and following God's Word as it is written "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God *ROMANS 10:17. If you are not believing and following God's Word the scriptures teach your faith is dead and not faith at all

God's word isn't limited to the bible.

3rdAngel · Mar 17, 2020

sojourner said:
Nor is there anything wrong with traditions that are not biblical.

Not according to the teachings of JESUS as JESUS says those who knowingly follow man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God are not following God *MATTHEW 15:2-9.

sojourner said:
What you believe is immaterial. What is reality is compelling.

Not really. I believe and follow God's Word. It is not my words I believe and follow or someone elses words I believe and follow like you do. It is God's Word and I believe and follow them over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God *MATTHEW 15:2-9.

sojourner said:
Because you said that actions must be in the bible. But the action of canonization (that is, deciding what is biblical and what is not) is not to be found anywhere in the bible. This is where the "bible only" crowd really runs into trouble. The very action that defines the parameters of the bible isn't biblical. It presents a conundrum that cannot be resolved logically. Therefore, there must be something wrong with the "bible only" premise.

God's church I believe according to the scriptures are everyone who believes and follows the teachings (Words) of JESUS, the Apostles and the prophets. It is these teachings (Words) that have founded God's church. All actions of God's people are found only in God's Word (the bible). You did not answer the question you are quoting from. How can the bible be not biblical when it is the bible and hoe can the canon be not biblical when it makes up the content of the bible? Did you want to have another go?

sojourner said:
You're certainly not reflecting that welcome of which you claim to be a representative. Your diatribes against Catholicism have been nothing short of closed-minded and nasty.

Not really. The real church are all those who believe and follow God's Word. I believe the scriptures teach that the church of the antichrist is the one the denys God's Word and leads others away from Gods' Word in order to follow man made traditions and teachings that break the commandments of God *MATTHEW 15:2-9. God's people (the church) hear God's Voice and follow him. Those who do not hear and do not follow are not God's church *JOHN 10:26-27. God's people I believe are in every church living up to all the light God has revealed to them *JOHN 10:16. The hour is coming and now is however that God's true worshippers will whorship him in Spirit and in truth *JOHN 4:23-24. God is calling his people out from following man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God *MATTHEW 15:2-9 back to the pure Word of God *REVELATION 18:1-5. Many will be called but few will be chosen.

sojourner said:
No; you've shared your interpretations. There's a big difference. And the fact that you're saying otherwise is an untruth.

Nonsense. I have only shared God's Word with you which is the truth. You in response simply provide your own wrods which are not God's but your words to deny God's Word which are not mine but God's.

sojourner said:
I'm not surprised. Your posts present a deficiency in both theological foundation and exegetical epistemology.

I am not suprised at your response even ISAIAH, JESUS and PAUL had to say to all those who chose not to believe and follow God's Word;

"Hearing you shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing you shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them".

I believe your words are directed towards yourself as is demonstrated throughout this thread and elsewhere. So we will have to agree to disagree.

Man made traditions from the Church or the Word of God - Who do you believe and follow?

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

Well-Known Member