Ebionite
Well-Known Member
You don't know that for sure. Given the value of calling on the name it's worthwhile to find out IMO.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
The True Pronunciation of YHVH and the Name of Christ
- Thread starter gaviria.christian
- Start date
Thief
Rogue Theologian
I said he knew the HOUSE of Pharaoh
btw......was he not raised up in that house AS a son of Pharaoh?
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Oh yes, we know it.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
It must be wonderful to be omniscient like that.
Messianic Israelite
Active Member
If I could facepalm I would do so.
The name of the Almighty is Yahweh and the name of His Son Yahshua.
I'm not even going to get in to Yehovah. It's a morphological impossibility. Anyone with a gram of Hebrew knowledge should be able to refute that. The Encyclopedia Brittanica says: ""Jehovah" is a modern mispronunciation of the Hebrew name, resulting from combining the consonants of that name, Jhvh, with the vowels of the word ădōnāy, "Lord," which the Jews substituted for the proper name in reading the scriptures." Yeshua is of late Hebrew and it arose from deliberately misspelling the name Yah to prevent it from being used as the Jews decided against pronouncing the 'ineffable' name.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I'm face palming the both of you. The pronunciation of the yad hey and vav hey was lost 2000 years ago. His idea, as you noted in your post, is simply the four consonants being given the vowels of Adonai. Your idea is a "best guess" of modern scholars, but it is still a GUESS. We just don't know, and when we presume, we risk butchering the sacred name of HaShem. It is better to simply, when reading the tetragramatton, use Adonai (Lord) or Hashem (the name) out of respect.
Messianic Israelite
Active Member
Hi IndigoChild. Good afternoon. I doubt that you have more knowledge than the encyclopedia's IndigoChild. The Encyclopedia Judaica says "“The true pronunciation of the name YHWH was never lost. Several early Greek writers of the Christian Church testify that the name was pronounced 'Yahweh." It says the name Yahweh was never lost. Saying the true pronunciation of the name is lost is similar to saying that we don't know which is the correct day for the Sabbath. These things have been preserved. Proverbs 30:4 says:
"Who hath ascended up into heaven, and descended?
Who hath gathered the wind in his fists?
Who hath bound the waters in his garment?
Who hath established all the ends of the earth?
What is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou knowest?"
His Name is Yahweh and His Son's name Yahshua.
I suspect that you have read through the Hebrew Scriptures. Then you'll know of the myriad references to the name of the Almighty, especially in the Psalms. Micah 6:9 says, the man of wisdom will see your name. Nowhere in the Bible is it indicated that the Name of Yahweh was lost or would be in the future. Yahweh's Name is difficult to translate, but many have suggested it means something like eternity, endlessness and everlasting. Can't you see that by denying the Name, you are in fact denying your eternal life? Hashem and Adonai will not do as Names for the most High. They hold no power and aren't even names, they are titles and inferior titles at that.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
First of all, you have to understand that it doesn't matter to me one way or the other whether you call the Jew who was executed by Pontius Pilate "Jesus" or "Yeshua." It really doesn't. it's like whether you call someone Peter or Pedro, Timothy or Dmitri. It's just the same names in two different languages. There is nothing more sacred about "Yeshua" simply because it's Aramaic.
As for your quote from the Encyclopedia Judaica, it actually googles to a website called forhisname.org. Since Encyclopedia Judaica is not online, I cannot verify what it has to say.
I can only reiterate, the idea that Y-hw-h is the correct pronunciation is the educated guess of many modern scholars, but it is still a guess. It is possible that this encyclopedia set embraces those scholars. I can't say. It still doesn't mean that this pronunciation is proven.
I still say that I would rather use Lord or Hashem, than take the chance that I'm mispronuncing and BUTCHERING the divine name.
Messianic Israelite
Active Member
Hi IndigoChild. Good afternoon. Most likely you have read the Bible. How can you ignore all the references to the Sacred Name? The people of the Bible knew the Sacred Name. The Tetragrammaton appears in the Hebrew Scriptures over 7,000 times. It's not a mute point. Regarding one's salvation, it is very important since they are many religions, many doctrines floating around. Salvation is promised through His wonderful name and you can read passages like Joel 2:32 to prove this. It's a beautiful name and it holds great power. Eliyah, one of the greatest prophets that ever lived means "My Elohim is Yahweh". He was using the Sacred Name too and was fervently jealous over the fact that Israel had gone in to idolatry. Yahshua means Yahweh is Salvation, which is what most have forgotten.
As John 5:43 says:
"I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive."
You said you are worried about butchering the divine name, but the evidence for the name being Yahweh is overwhelming. I mean, I could go in to all the reasons how you can prove the name, but I'd suggest you to read the book The Memorial Name - Yahweh. If you contend that the pronunciation was lost, you are ill informed, sadly. The name of Yahweh is a strong tower to us, the righteous runs in to it and is safe and you can read that in Proverbs 18:10. They are so many examples in the scriptures that shows that the Name will be used by those in true worship. 2 Timothy 2:19 tells us that those that name the name of Yahweh should depart from unrighteousness. Maybe this is what people are doing wrong and the reason why people are being held back. If we want a more intimate relationship with the Father and the Son, we have to use their correct names. There's so much meaning and power in the Sacred Names.
I'm jealous for the Name. So many substitutes floating around when our worship should be directed towards Yahweh. So much understanding of the scriptures opens up when you start using the Name.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Yes, the Tetragrammaton is the divine name, but Yeshua is not.
And no, there is not "overwhelming evidence" that Yahweh is the correct pronunciation of the yad hey and vav hey. It is basically the best guess of scholars, and nothing more.
The correct pronunciation was lost sometime after the destruction of the Temple. You are living in denial if you think we still have it.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
It really doesn't matter as long as scholars and others know the Hebrew and can translate it into something recognizable. For instance, Jerusalem is understood by English speakers, but it certainly isn't pronounced that way by those saying it in Hebrew. The J is a Y sound from English to Hebrew. Yes, from my research, you are correct that it is not certain (or is it important as far as I am concerned) that someone says it exactly as spoken to and by Moses.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I do think it matters with the divine name of God. God tells us that it is not to be taken in vain, meaning that it is sacred. To me, trying to approximate it is a horrible endeavor. Why? when we can simply address him as Lord, or HaShem (the Name) or any of a number of different salutations (El Shaddai -- God Almighty, etc.)
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
It was not a commandment to say something other than the Divine Name. Lord is not Yahweh, or Yahveh, or Yehovah, or however someone might pronounce it. Used properly, with reverence, it certainly is not wrong to say God's personal name. It is in the scriptures thousands of times.
Messianic Israelite
Active Member
IndigoChild. Good morning. Thank you for your opinion. The encyclopedias would tell you otherwise, as I have already shown. The quote that I used is from the Encyclopedia Judaica, Volume 7 found on p. 679 and it was first published in 1901 which means that that the 'modern' form Yahweh has known to be correct for more than a century. Dr Solomon Zeitlin in the Jewish Quarterly Review, Vol. 59, No. 4, April 1969 said, "In the biblical period Yahweh was a proper name, for the G-d of Israel, and ethnic G-d. After the Restoration those who adhered to the view of the universality of G-d maintained that Yahweh is not an ethnic G-d but is G-d of all the universe, the G-d of all peoples. To propagate this view they declared that the word Yahweh in the Pentateuch should be pronounced Adonai to signify that He is the L-rd, Master, of the universe."
Later in the same article Dr Zeitlin said "To sum up: The injunction that the Name Yahweh should not be pronounced but it should be pronounced Adonai was introduced shortly after the restoration"
This is a candid admission by a renowned scholar. Yahweh is not a guess. What really gets to me is that people are using terms like Hashem, Adonai, Lord and G-d when we know that these are not names, they are titles. Yahweh has a Name and He has declared it in His Word (Psalm 96:4-5). We are to hallow his Name as we read in the Model Prayer. All other mighty ones are idols. You say the Name Yahweh is a guess, which it isn’t, yet don’t mind using inferior titles to worship Yahweh, some of which are used to praise idols.
You asked for evidence that the Name is Yahweh. I’ll type a quote from The Memorial Name – Yahweh by Jacob O. Meyer. I apologise in advance if they are any typos in my transcript. Also note I haven’t copied the Hebrew letters in to the text as I do not know how to do this:
“Scholars had found fault with Josephus because he made the statement that the Sacred Name was four vowels. Here is the quote: ‘A mitre also of fine linen encompassed his head, which was tied by a blue riband, about which there was another golden crown, in which was graven the sacred name [of the Almighty]: it consists of four vowels.’ This is a description of the headgear worn by the high priest of Israel as his official ceremonial garb. Josephus confirmed that he saw this ceremonial attire and he identified the Sacred Name which was engraved into the golden band that held in place the turban (mitre) of the high priest. Since he was familiar with the Hebrew language as his native tongue, who are we to argue that it did consist of vowels? But scholars customarily sell manuscripts by the arguments they invent, consequently some of them have declared Josephus to be in error.
But who is right? Any Hebrew grammar will verify that Hebrew does in fact have vowel letters (letters of the Hebrew alphabet bearing vowel sounds functioning as vowels). Indeed the Hebrew language has a system of vowels written under the consonants. These are little marks that indicate which vowel is to be pronounced, but these marks were added to the text during the days when the Ben Asher family edited the ancient texts and developed the Masoretic text. This occurred around the 7th century (600 – 900 C.E) of our common era. The reason why the vowel points were introduced was so that the ability to read the Hebrew text would never be lost among the Jews of the dispersion.
Let us peruse several Hebew grammars to learn what they say on the subject. Weingreen says (Oxford University Press, 1959): ‘However, LONG BEFORE the introduction of vowel-signs it was felt that the main vowel-sounds should be indicated in writing, and so the three letters (yothe, waw, hay) were used to represent long vowels…’ (pages 7-8). Do you realize what you have just read? Here is a universally recognized scholar who has agreed with Josephus (as do all the Hebrew grammarians right down the line!) Each one of the letters mentioned is used in the Heavenly Father’s Name.
If you wish more verification to this fact you may obtain the following sources, A Beginner’s Handbook to Biblical the Hebrew Language Grew, Horowitz, KTAV Publishing, 1960, pp. 333-334. Both of these sources also include the aleph as a vowel letter, while some other sources include ayin, for example the Companion Bible.
Now that we have established that the three letters (one of them is used twice) found in the Heavenly Father’s Name are vowels, we shall return to the texts to determine what value they would have in the English language. The yothe is the smallest letter in the Hebrew alphabet and has the vowel sound of a long I (pronounced like a long E as in the word machine). The hay has the vowel sound of an A, (aw or ah). The waw has the vowel sound of a long U. The hay standing at the end of a masculine name has the vowel sound of a short E. The Hebrew long A sound (pronounced aw) is a feminine ending at the end of a name.
Now if we combine these letters we have the English word in the letters I-A-U-E. Pronounce them slowly and then rapidly. You will discover you are saying YAHWEH!”
The second way you can definitely prove that the most accurate transliteration of the Sacred Name from Hebrew into English is Yahweh is to transliterate just as though they were consonants which I can explain later if you like.
Messianic Israelite
Active Member
The English translation of the biblical texts obviously contains the transliterated proper nouns (names) of those who lived through the many episodes recorded in the Bible. The one notable exception is the Name of the one who inspired the book to be written, the Name of the Heavenly Father Yahweh. His name was removed through the substitution "L-RD", while all other names appear as transliterated forms from the Hebrew. Such a situation can only be described as paradoxical. To substitute and remove the Name is a practice that is totally unscriptural. It should never have come about. Names (proper nouns) must be transliterated and we know from the Bible what the Name of Yahweh was. I won't be using a surrogate term to address the only Living and True Elohim Yahweh.
We must call Yahweh by His Name if we want to receive salvation in His Name. In the latter days, we are told that knowledge will be increased in Daniel 12:4, the time of the unsealing of the Book. We know what the Name of the Almighty is. He wants us to call upon Him and worship Him and He deserves that honour. He Has created all things, given us the opportunity to life eternal and sent His Son to save us from our sins. Doesn't Yahweh deserve our reverence and worship exclusively?
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Regardless of what we think we know, there is no commandment that we should not use the Name except we must not use it in vain or worthlessly.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
No one can go to the Father except through the Son. Granted that most English speakers refer to Jerusalem as Jerusalem and not Yerushalyim, but to those who know what we're talking about it shouldn't make a difference. And remember that many claimed to worship Him among His own people but they did not please Him. So? Plus regional accents are also clearly recognizable. Please do not tell me that Jesus was called Jesus back in the days of Herod. Thanks. (But if you must tell me, then obviously I won't stop you.) Yes, God has a name. And it was written in Hebrew with four Hebrew letters. And those letters do not spell "lord." As many translators have devised it wrongly. Those letters spell the Divine Name. No matter how one pronounces based on scholarship and agreement, to use God's name in vain is not a real good thing.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Using an approximation is, IMHO, rather insulting. It approaches using the name in vain.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
First of all, lord is spelled in Hebrew differently than God Almighty's divine name. And since the Name is written in Hebrew and can be understood when pronounced approximating one's language preference, there is no problem. For me. Each to his own, yours to yours and mine to mine. Aside from the fact that I think it's right and proper to use God's name in prayer and otherwise, to speak up, or stand up for the Name in action and life is a privilege and an honor. Shalom.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
As I already explained to you, Yahweh is he preferred intelligent guess of many scholars today. It is the best guess. But it is still a guess. No one can possibly know. It's just NOT POSSIBLE to know.
The vowel markings are adding the vowels of Adonai to the Tetragrammaton for the sake of holiness, and if you accept them, you end up with Yahovah, not Yahweh.
I really don't want to continue this discussion with you. It's not because of anything you have said, you've been great. It's just that in order to communicate, it's been necessary for me to use these approximations, and I end up feeling awful for doing so.
Be well.