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What is inherently wrong with...

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
....religious rituals?

Can you explain the logic behind the answer?
Not everything about rituals is good.

One drawback is they are tribal and exclusive. If you aren't in the ritual then you are excluded. This (exclusion) is frequently manipulated in society. It is used to stratify upper classes from lower, keep people out of guilds, out of clubs, out of social circles, out of political circles. The ritual can be anything such as knowing the latest clothing styles. If you don't know then you are an outsider. It doesn't matter if nobody intends the ritual to be exclusive or not. Exclusiveness is an inherent trait of rituals.
 

GoodbyeDave

Well-Known Member
Firstly, we need to understand what rituals are — a normal aspect of human behaviour. Saying "hello" and shaking hands are examples of rituals. Rituals also exist in other animals.

As for religious rituals, I shall just quote the anthropologist Evan Zuesse, who put it far better than I could:
Ritual … is spiritually more profound than any theology, it accomplishes more for those who participate in it than any number of rarified mystical treatises …

The deepest form of knowing is through doing. Being is less adequate a religious good than Becoming. In the final analysis, it is only when we act out concretely our deepest convictions that they become our real convictions, that we truly experience their truth — or discover their falsity. As human beings we are in constant flight from our own concrete existence ; we take refuge in idealities such as myth and theology, we long for primordial being, and we thirst for ultimate states that will remove us from our own insufficiencies and mortality.

[ritual] not only announces our limits and humbles us by showing us our bodies, but it also indicates that our limits and bodies are sanctified participants in a larger marvelous whole, a divine order.

Ritual … may be rooted in the body, but it achieves expression only in otherness. The transcendental center of symbolic action is the real heart of ritual. Ritual mediates between real and ideal, flesh and mind, material and spiritual, giving each a shape which is that of the other.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Not everything about rituals is good.

One drawback is they are tribal and exclusive. If you aren't in the ritual then you are excluded. This (exclusion) is frequently manipulated in society. It is used to stratify upper classes from lower, keep people out of guilds, out of clubs, out of social circles, out of political circles. The ritual can be anything such as knowing the latest clothing styles. If you don't know then you are an outsider. It doesn't matter if nobody intends the ritual to be exclusive or not. Exclusiveness is an inherent trait of rituals.

Would this apply to religious view?
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
Is it inherently wrong? Some people say so, but I can't see it.
I agree with you. There is nothing inherently wrong with ritual behavior and biological evidence that these behaviors were selected for in our evolution. Many rituals have clear pro-social advantages connecting individuals of a religion together. Any judgment on a ritual must be seen in the context of the ritual - its environmental and social context.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
Not everything about rituals is good.

One drawback is they are tribal and exclusive. If you aren't in the ritual then you are excluded. This (exclusion) is frequently manipulated in society. It is used to stratify upper classes from lower, keep people out of guilds, out of clubs, out of social circles, out of political circles. The ritual can be anything such as knowing the latest clothing styles. If you don't know then you are an outsider. It doesn't matter if nobody intends the ritual to be exclusive or not. Exclusiveness is an inherent trait of rituals.
You are looking this from the outsider point of view. Whether a ritual is good or not is a relative position. Those sharing the ritual have an increased connection and view it is good. Ritual behavior seems to have a biological origin intended for greater cohesiveness in a group.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I agree with you. There is nothing inherently wrong with ritual behavior and biological evidence that these behaviors were selected for in our evolution. Many rituals have clear pro-social advantages connecting individuals of a religion together. Any judgment on a ritual must be seen in the context of the ritual - its environmental and social context.

Exactly. I feel people are stuck on the external part of the ritual (and the name) without understanding the internal. I'm not sure how "god said no" logically tells me how (rather than why) rituals are bad.

I mean, take praying the rosary. Some say it's ridiculous to say prayer to god and his mother over and over and say that god gets annoyed over it.

What is our opinion and logic behind why this ritual is ridiculous especially if you believe so yoursel
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
There are devotional practices and repetitive 'performances' that mean very little to a God who did not command them. What makes you think he is happy about them?



The rituals performed by Israel all had significance in the big scheme of things...either as a reminder of their need for sin to be forgiven (if they were truly repentant) or for the sake of hygiene or to signify remembrance of a special event, like the Passover.

Christians had no rituals to speak of. They met for study of the scriptures, which were used liberally in Jesus teachings and of the apostles as well. Their gatherings were also an interhange encouragement to keep the faith despite opposition.



Worship is not a ritual, it is a requirement....God set out his requirements to Israel, for worship, for sacrifice and for all their festivals.
They were to follow exactly what God told them to do....no more and no less. That is what obedience means.

Christianity had no such set requirements except to meet for worship, (which was not ritualistic) and to hold the commemoration of Jesus' death as he requested, once a year....it was a substitute for the Passover because Jesus was "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world". His blood would now save the faithful.....but the question was...who were these ones?



Since a ritual is defined as ..."a religious or solemn ceremony consisting of a series of actions performed according to a prescribed order.".....yes, IMO, that is a solid definition.



If that is all your children said to you day after day, then it would get pretty old very quickly. Why? Because speech is not the primary way to convey love for someone. If you children told you they loved you, but didn't ever show that love in tangible ways, would you believe their love was genuine?

The kind of love promoted in the Bible is "agape" which is the kind of love that can be applied even to an enemy....it doesn't only mean a warm feeling of affection, but is demonstrated in many ways. It is based on principle, meaning that you can love your enemy by not allowing hatred for him to grow in your heart. Like God, you can hate what he does, but not hate the person.


Spirituality is a quality that is inherent in all of God's intelligent creation. Angels are spiritual beings who dwell in a spiritual realm, but humans have spirituality as part of their being "made in God's image"



Its a shame that most people do not know the difference between "spiritual" and "spiritistic". They are not the same.



You show God you love him by doing as he commands....I don't believe he counts mindless performance as love. Its more about duty than an act of love.



Gathering for worship is what Christ and his disciples did. As a Jew, Jesus was bound by the Law until his death paid for a release from it. His disciples pulled away from the corrupted Jewish system and as Jesus had implemented the "new covenant", a new system of worship resulted. Rituals were not included.



You don't know much about the devil if you think he is somehow made by God. The devil is self-made....God will deal with him as only God can. How he plays into a loving religion is that he trains us to defend our faith when he is constantly trying to undermine it. By strengthening our faith we are better equipped to deal with the rubbish he throws at us.



Because prayer is not ritual.....it is a personal conversation with God that comes from the heart not the head. It is about our petitions and our concerns for our family and others....it isn't a set of words said by rote fingering a set of beads.



It makes no difference what I think...I'm just telling you what the Bible says...



What did you pray? Was it a personal conversation with God....or repeating the same prayer as everyone else?



None of that is scriptural. Statues are idols, rosaries are meaningless to God. The Lord's Prayer was never given as something to repeat, but a model for our own prayers, with Jesus stating what our priorities should be....the sanctification of God's name...the coming of his Kingdom, and God's will being done on earth, as it is in heaven....and provision of our necessities for the day. No genuflecting...no cross, and no communion on a daily or weekly basis because it was a replacement for the Passover which was held only once a year on a specific date on the Jewish calendar. (Nisan 14)


Tell me how...



Christianity doesn't stand for anything....being a Christian is physically being a footstep follower of Christ....teaching what Jesus taught, believing what he believed about God and being obedient in our form of worship, not going beyond what is written....not going beyond what God requires, and not giving these things too little attention, if you want to call yourself a Christian.

That is how I see it....


I want to talk about a specific ritual such as daily Mass. In some places Mass is only in the mornings. I used to work in other areas where Mass was morning and afternoon. Holidays, especially the Easter Vigil, it's three times every single day with other ritual observations and prayers dedicated to christ.

All of these things are worship rituals rather than those of the hypocrites. However, you really got to understand it and see other people's view in order to get it first before judging based on scripture. Unfortunately, since Paul, Jesus, and John aren't you, there's only but so much in scripture that makes sense to how I see reality. Outside of that, you would have to talk in your own words (dumb it down) since scripture doesn't speak for itself.

With that said, when a Roman/Orthodox/etc catholic (generalizing on purpose) goes to church usually they are already in a state of prayer. Which means one is in a meditative state (lbw) and communicating with god and all of this. Same thing as JW and any other person who follows the footsteps of christ.

So, they go to Church and sit in any pew, go through christ's passion and pray to god. It's preparing for mass.

When they are prepared, Mass starts (will skip the details) and the catholic is basically siting with the disciples at his lord's table. Communion is given to bring christ in Mass to come together in the body. When people take the meal, they are taking in christ.

So, whether it's daily or once a year, the same thing applies. They are in Mass to worship christ as a body.

After Mass, the catholic is still in a state of prayer. He or she has been blessed from god (as other people who follow in christ footsteps are), they go home and do god's will.

It's not the ritual that's the issue: that's the external. It's how god is moving people through the ritual.

As for the hypocrites, that's more of people putting rituals above christ or using it in place of christ. Maybe "some" people do it but I never seen it as a doctrine of the Church.

Off ball question: Are JW the only group that have a true relationship with christ?

You can skip the other post.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
You are looking this from the outsider point of view. Whether a ritual is good or not is a relative position. Those sharing the ritual have an increased connection and view it is good. Ritual behavior seems to have a biological origin intended for greater cohesiveness in a group.
Don't make the mistake of assuming that I am condemning ritual. I'm simply saying its inherently separative not that there is nothing good about it. People can be good, but we all have something inherently wrong with us. This is also true about most things human-related including ritual. The OP asks if there is anything wrong with ritual, and there is. There must be, and I have no trouble pointing something out that is a flaw. It is not flawless. Therefore there is nothing wrong with my flawless reply. Nevertheless you made a good post.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Would this apply to religious view?
Not to me, because if your religious view is separative that is a ritual of separation. I believe views are not ritual, but if you impose separation then that separation is ritual (splitting hairs here). I think so for the reason that you can have different views and still not create separation. I've seen this in various situations in real life. You let other people think differently from yourself.

People can do this several ways. They can let others disagree, let others be wrong, and they can consider themselves not necessarily to be an authority on something. They can also consider themselves to be partly right or partly wrong. Humility is the simplest way to let other people disagree, but you can do it without humility if you just don't care what other people think.
 

Workman

UNIQUE
Not sure what you're saying. You'd have to explain it more so I'm not guessing.
I do not blame you for it...like I have always said, it was part due to ‘knowledge & logic’, and it is the same reason why no.one will be able to know God.

And ‘The Word’ was God....

Do you know where words come from?
It comes from the heart...would you know how? It be from our Experiences.

Words are experiences, it was never meant for use in (knowledge), which is why mankind have used to their advantage. Mankind have existed more words to our experiences..and where they’ve made science out of it...

So if you did not know, Knowledge created science, science created reality(religions) and religion teaches Gods ‘word’..THROUGH THIS [knowledge], and these words you use in today...have been mis-used for controlling the human mind(and this part HERE is where you all are existing)....ONLY IN THE MIND.(not by your heart;Happiness).

and if I were YOU, I would pay more attention to “THE WORD”...and don’t let someone else tell you NOT.

GOD BLESS...
 
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TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Something unnecessary, is unnecessary to someone. That makes it (inter-)subjective and not objective.

No.

Sacrificing humans is not going to influence weather patterns.
Therefor sacrificing humans is unnecessary, as objectively as it can possibly be, if the goal is the try and influence weather patterns.

You can play your usual silly word games if you like. It won't change the objective facts.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Would this apply to religious view?

It can and it does in plenty of communities around the world and it certaintly did in more communities in the past.

Enough area's to choose from in the US for example, where for example NOT going to church every sunday or NOT being willing to take part in "group prayer" at the start of sport events or classes or meals or what not, will instantly make you a social outcast.

Surely you are aware of this.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
You are looking this from the outsider point of view. Whether a ritual is good or not is a relative position. Those sharing the ritual have an increased connection and view it is good. Ritual behavior seems to have a biological origin intended for greater cohesiveness in a group.

And it certainly has such an effect on those that take part in it.
In has the opposite effect for those that don't take part in it, in relation to the group that does.

I'ld say that social cohesion and strong social connections are good within a society, but only insofar as it is all-inclusive instead of exlusive. If not everybody participates, that "strong connection" of the one group can quickly deteriorate in social division with "the others", which in turn is potentially very bad for a society.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
No.

Sacrificing humans is not going to influence weather patterns.
Therefor sacrificing humans is unnecessary, as objectively as it can possibly be, if the goal is the try and influence weather patterns.

You can play your usual silly word games if you like. It won't change the objective facts.

You don't understand how subjectivity works. That is all you get. If you can make claims without reasoning, I can do that too.
As for your answer in your post, you don't understand how subjectivity works.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
You don't understand how subjectivity works.

You don't understand how facts work.

That is all you get. If you can make claims without reasoning, I can do that too.

I gave you my reasoning. You might have missed it while you were flipping on certain words though.

As for your answer in your post, you don't understand how subjectivity works.

You don't understand how facts work.

The fact is, that sacrificing a human to appease the weather gods, isn't actually going to make it rain.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
It can and it does in plenty of communities around the world and it certaintly did in more communities in the past.

Enough area's to choose from in the US for example, where for example NOT going to church every sunday or NOT being willing to take part in "group prayer" at the start of sport events or classes or meals or what not, will instantly make you a social outcast.

Surely you are aware of this.

The original question was if rituals are inherently wrong not whether people benefit from rituals. @Brickjectivity answered from a non-religious view. I asked him would that same explanation apply to a religious view.

It was specific from his answer I was referring to.
 
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