"Catholic Leader: If We Cancel Mass Due to Coronavirus, We’ve 'Lost Our Courage' "

columbus · Mar 10, 2020

Skwim said:
Ever? And not celebrate, but approve. Because Pope Francis has.

"Pope cancels Mass for second day in a row as coronavirus sweeps Italy"
source

.

Do you not realize that Italy has a huge number of cases?
That precautions taken in the tourist capital of the world don't necessarily apply in rural USA?

Seriously? You don't see any difference between Masses held in different parts of the world?
Tom

Evangelicalhumanist · Mar 10, 2020

Nakosis said:
Not that I care about Mass, but I doubt cancelling Mass is going to save us from the coronavirus. Just going to the grocery store one can get infected. Unless one wants to stop all activity whatsoever and become a recluse people are going to get exposed.

There is no stopping the coronavirus -- it is with us now, and will do the rounds for as long as it wants.

What can be hoped for, however, since it is significantly more dangerous than the flu, is that we can contain it through such measures until an effective vaccine can be developed, perhaps within several months, more likely a year or two.

So I don't think we're being asked to become recluses -- rather, I think we're all being asked to exhibit more than the usual amount of care and circumspection for a period of time that hopefully will not last too awfully long. And I don't think that's too much to ask.

Stanyon · Mar 10, 2020

Saint Frankenstein said:
Who is that in you avatar? I've been meaning to ask.

She is a Dr. Who incarnation from the future, her real name is Jo Martin.

Skwim · Mar 10, 2020

Landon Caeli said:
This isn't just a mockery session for everyone, skwim. Some people take this very seriously.

Sorry that taking the position down to its very basics bothers you. but this is what I see Pope's pronouncement coming down to: Possibility of contagion or not the mass will go on. Is this or is this not his, and your, position? If it is then my remark can hardly be called mockery. If it isn't then please correct me.

.

Evangelicalhumanist · Mar 10, 2020

Nakosis said:
I think it is optimistic to think this will do much to prevent the spread. The CDC estimate that 30,000 will die from other flus. It'd be great to prevent those deaths as well but I think humans are just too social.

Well, I think there's evidence to suggest that some very real containment is possible, but it requires a little discipline. Look, the first confirmed case in Canada was January 25, over 6 weeks ago, and now the country has 74 cases, and 1 death. Compare that to Iran and Italy, both of which recorded their first cases AFTER Canada did, and yet both have over 7,000 cases now, and 300 (200 in Italy) deaths. What happened was that Canada -- being the extremely diverse nation that it is -- was one of the worst-hit places during SARS, and we built up a lot of discipline around containment.

So far, it seems to be working. I am aware that I'm "tempting the gods," and that we will certainly have our own share of pain in the near future, but if we can, by doing things right, keep those numbers as low as possible until a vaccine can be developed, than that has got to be a good thing.

Evangelicalhumanist · Mar 10, 2020

Mestemia said:
I have always been of the mind that lightning rods on churches reveals a serious lack of faith.

Along with serious good sense.

Evangelicalhumanist · Mar 10, 2020

Maximus said:
Perhaps what is being revealed here is your misunderstanding of the nature of the Creator?

I thought that was a mystery? How can you not have a misunderstanding of the nature of a mystery? Better yet, how can anybody pretend to have such an understanding?

Cooky · Mar 10, 2020

Skwim said:
Sorry that taking the position down to its very basics bothers you. but this is what I see Pope's pronouncement coming down to: Possibility of contagion or not the mass will go on. Is this or is this not his, and your, position? If it is then my remark can hardly be called mockery. If it isn't then please correct me.

.

I have a hard time discussing this with you because your objective seems to be to mock a priest, while my objective is to gain an honest understanding of news.

...This is why we shouldn't talk about this with one another. Because our goals are not the same

Evangelicalhumanist · Mar 10, 2020

Nakosis said:

Great video...lots and lots of good, common sense!

Maximus · Mar 10, 2020

Evangelicalhumanist said:
I thought that was a mystery? How can you not have a misunderstanding of the nature of a mystery? Better yet, how can anybody pretend to have such an understanding?

Yes, much mystery. Though it is clear to me that the ground of all being - God the Creator - is not some being directing lightning bolts (or choosing football teams, siding with certain armies, etc.).

Evangelicalhumanist · Mar 10, 2020

Landon Caeli said:
Uh-huh. The chances are so small, that the Masses will be shut down..

IN ORDER TO KEEP THE CHANCES SMALL! Sorry, didn't mean to yell.

McBell · Mar 10, 2020

Maximus said:
Yes, much mystery. Though it is clear to me that the ground of all being - God the Creator - is not some being directing lightning bolts (or choosing football teams, siding with certain armies, etc.).

I am going to stick with the Divine Bowl Movement Theory.

Skwim · Mar 10, 2020

columbus said:
Do you not realize that Italy has a huge number of cases?
That precautions taken in the tourist capital of the world don't necessarily apply in rural USA?

Seriously? You don't see any difference between Masses held in different parts of the world?
Tom

I sure do, however, Landon Caeli, whom I was addressing, makes no such qualification: "I'm not going to celebrate the closing down of Masses. Or any kind of rejected service by the Church." and "Mass cannot be canceled. I agree with the priest,"

who said in defense of his position;

"Physical health has its place, but spiritual health does too — and its place is vastly more important." [As if spiritual health will necessarily suffer if physical health is occasionally given priority over this weekly Catholic rite. But maybe Catholic spiritual health is rather fragile and has to be renewed every week to keep in shape; although, considering the reasons other masses have been canceled, bad weather, bad sidewalks, etc, this doesn't seem to be the case.]

and blows off the consequence of contracting coronavirus with:

"Some will call me irresponsible for calling for public and communal Masses to resume. “People are dying,” they will say. I can only respond by saying that souls are dying due to fear and worldly obsession with death. . . . . The deeper and more important question is this: Are you ready to die and face judgment?"

According to Landon Caeli's rule book on masses, as I read it, not even Italy's dire coronavirus situation and that in the Vatican justify canceling mass, as the Pope has done.

.

Nakosis · Mar 10, 2020

Evangelicalhumanist said:
Great video...lots and lots of good, common sense!

Yeah, I had to change my view a bit.

Yes we are all likely to get exposed at some point but it helps the situation to delay it as long as possible. Allow us to learn more and perhaps even create a vaccine.

Evangelicalhumanist · Mar 10, 2020

Nakosis said:
Yeah, I had to change my view a bit.

Yes we are all likely to get exposed at some point but it helps the situation to delay it as long as possible. Allow us to learn more and perhaps even create a vaccine.

That, in sum, is our first, best hope!

But that requires that governments be open and honest -- which I think they can do without causing undue panic -- and that the press do likewise, rather than trying to sell papers or airtime. This will be very much a full community (meaning national) effort.

So wash your hands, carry a little hand sanitizer (only for emergencies, washing is better), try staying away from crowds, keep your hands away from your face -- then wash your hands again.

columbus · Mar 10, 2020

Skwim said:
I sure do, however, Landon Caeli, whom I was addressing, makes no such qualification:

I'm hardly going to speak for @Landon Caeli . He just put me on <ignore> because he dislikes reading my posts so much.
But I think I understand what he's saying and I agree with him, in a guarded sort of way.

In your OP you quoted a US monsignor as saying

Skwim said:
Canceling Mass while bars and restaurants remain open during the day is obtuse and seems to demonstrate a lack of resolve among our leaders.

Somehow, you seemed to equate holding every Mass everywhere with holding any Mass anywhere. It's not.
Holding a huge public Mass at the Vatican is like holding Olympic games. People come from around the world, for a short time, then go back. They take their infections with them. Big sporting events are being cancelled all over the place to reduce the spread of this new virus. It's a sensible response to the contagion.

But, on the other hand, cancelling Mass in low risk places is not so sensible. Especially while the bars and movies and restaurants remain open for business. Italy is a high risk place, due to all the tourists. Suburban USA is not, for a host of reasons. That's what Monsignor Pope was referring to.

As usual, it's pretty easy to bash Catholics. You're good at finding such things on the internet and repeating them on RF.
Oh well.
Tom

9-10ths_Penguin · Mar 10, 2020

columbus said:
So do I.

Don't cancel Mass. Do it on schedule.
People can then decide for themselves whether to attend or not.

But if the church cancels Mass, then the people have no choice. There just isn't a Mass to attend.

I can understand why Mass attendance would be low during a potential viral epidemic. But that's not the same as eliminating the choice for everyone, regardless of their assessment of the risk of attending Mass.
Tom

Missing Sunday mass is considered a mortal sin. If someone dies with an unforgiven mortal sin, then - according to the Church - they'll be condemned to Hell.

... so seeing how they're being threatened with fate worse than death for missing mass, I wouldn't say that they have a choice.

For a believing Catholic, they may as well have a gun to their head.

Evangelicalhumanist · Mar 10, 2020

9-10ths_Penguin said:
Missing Sunday mass is considered a mortal sin. If someone dies with an unforgiven mortal sin, then - according to the Church - they'll be condemned to Hell.

... so seeing how they're being threatened with fate worse than death for missing mass, I wouldn't say that they have a choice.

For a believing Catholic, they may as well have a gun to their head.

Honestly, I have to think that makes a complete mockery of God! Unquestionably human-think! Think about what it presumes -- it presumes, absolutely, that the God everybody touts as omniscient can't see into anyone's true heart, unless they do the rituals. It's nonsense.

Kenny · Mar 10, 2020

Skwim said:
.

"Monsignor Charles Pope, the pastor of Holy Comforter–St. Cyprian Church in Washington, D.C., can’t believe some churches are opting to cancel Mass in the wake of the COVID-19 outbreak.

While SXSW and sports venues have canceled major events to prevent the spread of the disease, Pope wants Catholic churches to keep holding services, even if it allows the virus to get around more easily.

View attachment 37736
He writes in the National Catholic Register:

I simply ask you: Are we majoring in the minors? Physical health has its place, but spiritual health does too — and its place is vastly more important.

I am concerned that we have lost our courage and our faith and subordinated holy things to the state in this matter. Canceling Mass while bars and restaurants remain open during the day is obtuse and seems to demonstrate a lack of resolve among our leaders. St. Charles Borromeo did not hunker down during the plague outbreak of his day — he went among the faithful and cared for them as a priest should do. He also told the unbelieving civil leaders of his day to acknowledge that faith, public repentance and worship were essential parts of any solution. We have far less than plague today and are far too willing to let a secular government tell us to cancel our public prayers.
This man wants people to ignore the advice of experts — consequences be damned — and he doesn’t care what happens because he’s deluded enough to think the afterlife matters more than actual life.

He freely admits this too.

Some will call me irresponsible for calling for public and communal Masses to resume. “People are dying,” they will say. I can only respond by saying that souls are dying due to fear and worldly obsession with death. Death will come to all of us, and not likely by coronavirus. The deeper and more important question is this: Are you ready to die and face judgment?
If a priest wants to hold Mass, he’s more than welcome to. But the congregation is attending at its own peril. They’re especially setting themselves up for trouble if they’re drinking from the same chalice.
source
.

So... I conclude that your viewpoint is simply don't go to work, don't go to the grocery store and pray for bread to fall from Heaven and someone else pay for your mortgage..

Got it!!

McBell · Mar 10, 2020

KenS said:
So... I conclude that your viewpoint is simply don't go to work, don't go to the grocery store and pray for bread to fall from Heaven and someone else pay for your mortgage..

Got it!!

You do realize the post you quoted is all from an article and not the posters thoughts, right?

"Catholic Leader: If We Cancel Mass Due to Coronavirus, We’ve 'Lost Our Courage' "

yawn <ignore> yawn

"Truth" isn't a thing...

WWMRD?

Veteran Member

"Truth" isn't a thing...

"Truth" isn't a thing...

"Truth" isn't a thing...

Veteran Member

"Truth" isn't a thing...

the Confessor

"Truth" isn't a thing...

Resident Sourpuss

Veteran Member

Non-Binary Physicalist

"Truth" isn't a thing...

yawn <ignore> yawn

1/10 Subway Stalinist

"Truth" isn't a thing...

Face to face with my Father

Resident Sourpuss