How God’s Kingdom Will Come—Not What You Think!

Trailblazer · Mar 2, 2020

1213 said:
How?

Those who chose to accept and believe were rendered true believers.and entered God's holy court.

"Some were guided by the Light of God, gained admittance into the court of His presence, and quaffed, from the hand of resignation, the waters of everlasting life, and were accounted of them that have truly recognized and believed in Him. Others rebelled against Him, and rejected the signs of God, the Most Powerful, the Almighty, the All-Wise.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 145

“He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.” Gleanings, p. 339

URAVIP2ME · Mar 4, 2020

Trailblazer said:
What I would accept as proof is if Jesus said somewhere in His gospels that He was going to return to earth after He died and went to heaven.

in illustrative form, or story form Jesus gives us the illustration as found at Luke 19:11-15.
Jesus teaches the kingdom would Not immediately (instantly) appear in verse 11.
Jesus is the nobleman of verse 12 who must first go to a ' far country ' (Heaven ) before he returns.
This is in harmony with Psalms 110
I find Jesus words found at Acts of the Apostles 1:6-8 also lets us know there would be a returning.
Jesus puts the emphasis on doing a great work ahead, a work for us - Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8
We are to declare the good news of God's kingdom (Daniel 2:44) world wide before Jesus returns.
Not to mean returning in a 'physical sense' but just as Jesus is unseen leader of the Christian congregation today.
The executional words from Jesus' mouth will rid the Earth of the wicked - Isaiah 11:3-4.
Heavenly Jesus with angelic armies will be involved in the returning - Revelation 19:14-16.

Trailblazer · Mar 4, 2020

nPeace said:
Again, however you choose to interpret what is written, is your prerogative.
If you choose to view the writings as ridiculous, that's also up to you. However, that what's written.

(1 Thessalonians 4:16) because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.

(1 Thessalonians 4:17) Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.

(John 14:3) Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will receive you home to myself, so that where I am you also may be.

Do you imagine that Jesus and the saints, do not know what they are talking about, and you know more than them? Do you realize you sound like an Atheist, when you say such things?
These things are obviously written because they are necessary events to take place.

I know that Jesus knew more than I could ever know because He was a Manifestation of God, but Paul was just a man who changed the course of Christianity and founded a new religion, which was not the based upon the teachings of Jesus. Paul was either off his rocker or those verses have a non-literal interpretation; because such events cannot take place in the real world, it is a fantasy.

nPeace said:
First of all, you said quote ... The disciples were staring up into the sky as the spirit of Jesus was taken up to heaven out of their sight. The two men dressed in white (angels) came along and asked why they were staring up into the sky because they wondered why the disciples were staring up into the sky. Then the angels told the disciples that the same spirit of Jesus that was taken up to heaven will return just as it went to heaven, in like manner.

It does not say that the disciples saw a body go up. It was the Christ Spirit that ascended, not a body, which is why the angels wondered why the disciples were staring into the sky, since there was nothing to look at. That makes perfect sense since angels can see spirits whereas the disciples couldn’t. Unquote.

I asked you Where does it say that the spirit of Jesus was taken up to heaven, out of their sight?
Now you are saying body, and putting it in bold font too...
You seem confused.
Do you therefore concede that the scripture nowhere says the spirit of Jesus. Or that they were looking at nothing... according to you?

The scripture does not say spirit but the scripture also does not say the body of Jesus was seen going up. Most Christians believe it was a body because of their preconceived beliefs.

nPeace said:
Secondly, I don't know where you got the notion that I "believe this verse is referring to the same body of Jesus". I hope it was not a revelation, because it would not be from God, since it is false.
"My church", according to you, does not teach such falsehood.

If you believe that is false, what do you believe is true? What did they see going up?

nPeace said:
Now you are confusing me.
So which is it.
You said... Quote...
Where does it say that the body of Jesus was taken up to heaven, out of their sight?

Acts 1:9-11 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Unquote.
Are you saying it was a body, or not a body?

I am saying it was the Spirit of Jesus that ascended.

nPeace said:
First, you misquoted the verse, then you misinterpreted it.
The verse never said, "until He returns". Are you using a paraphrase Bible, or are you paraphrasing? That is wrong.
(Matthew 17:1, 2) Six days later Jesus took Peter and James and his brother John along and led them up into a lofty mountain by themselves. 2 And he was transfigured before them; his face shone as the sun, and his outer garments became brilliant as the light.
There you go. They saw Jesus - the Son of man - coming in his kingdom. It's as simple as that. Read the context. (Matthew 13:10-17)

Thanks for explaining that. I never really knew what the verse meant, so I was shooting in the dark. It was nonbelievers who brought that the verse to my attention and told me the Jesus did not keep His promise to return to earth, so now I will have something to tell them if they bring that verse up again.

WhyIsThatSo · Mar 4, 2020

Trailblazer said:
I know that Jesus knew more than I could ever know because He was a Manifestation of God, but Paul was just a man who changed the course of Christianity and founded a new religion, which was not the based upon the teachings of Jesus. Paul was either off his rocker or those verses have a non-literal interpretation; because such events cannot take place in the real world, it is a fantasy.

The scripture does not say spirit but the scripture also does not say the body of Jesus was seen going up. Most Christians believe it was a body because of their preconceived beliefs.

If you believe that is false, what do you believe is true? What did they see going up?

I am saying it was the Spirit of Jesus that ascended.

Thanks for explaining that. I never really knew what the verse meant, so I was shooting in the dark. It was nonbelievers who brought that the verse to my attention and told me the Jesus did not keep His promise to return to earth, so now I will have something to tell them if they bring that verse up again.

And that "coming" occurs at the DEATH of the physical body. The "transfiguration" on the "mount" was to show them what will become of those that transcend this physical existence. This transcendence is also what is called "resurrection" of the "body".

When this physical body is transformed into the true Spiritual body that we all possess but in "infancy".
"spirit" is what we are, not this "flesh" (physical body).

URAVIP2ME · Mar 4, 2020

Trailblazer said:
The scripture does not say spirit but the scripture also does not say the body of Jesus was seen going up. Most Christians believe it was a body because of their preconceived beliefs.
If you believe that is false, what do you believe is true? What did they see going up?
I am saying it was the Spirit of Jesus that ascended.......................

I find resurrected Jesus was ' taken up' as per Acts of the Apostles 1:9
Before that happened Jesus made post-resurrection appearances, and resurrected Jesus was Not recognized.
Since Jesus used different ' materialized bodies ' after he was resurrected shows Not his old physical body.
Because the resurrected Jesus was Not in his physical body is why the woman of John 20:15-17 did Not recognize Jesus.
This is because God resurrected Jesus back to his pre-human spirit body he had before being sent to Earth.
A physical body does Not appear in shut rooms, but resurrected spirit-person Jesus did - John 20:17-19
Again, 8 days later spirit-person Jesus appears in a shut room - John 20:26
Plus, we have Luke's account as found at Luke 24:13-18 followers mistakenly thinking Jesus to be a stranger.
See also Luke 24:31.

URAVIP2ME · Mar 4, 2020

WhyIsThatSo said:
And that "coming" occurs at the DEATH of the physical body. The "transfiguration" on the "mount" was to show them what will become of those that transcend this physical existence. This transcendence is also what is called "resurrection" of the "body".
When this physical body is transformed into the true Spiritual body that we all possess but in "infancy".
"spirit" is what we are, not this "flesh" (physical body).

I find the transfiguration was Not any transcendence but according to Matthew 17:9 it was a VISION.
People who died before Jesus died can have a physical resurrection (John 3:13)
No one who died before Jesus died is called to heavenly life - Act of the Apostles 2:34; Matthew 11:11.
The figurative living ' sheep ' at the coming 'time of separation' on Earth as found at Matthew 25:31-33,37
they are living people Not called to heavenly life but called to remain alive on Earth, and to continue living on Earth to be the foundation of Jesus' 1,000-year reign over Earth for a thousand years.
Only people like the people of Luke 22:28-30; Daniel 7:18 are called to heavenly life.
The majority of mankind can gain everlasting life on a beautiful paradisical Earth as Eden originally was.

Trailblazer · Mar 4, 2020

nPeace said:
You do not believe that Jonah was in the fish's belly for three days??? May I ask why not? Is it because you doubt the power of God?
Why don't you believe that Jesus was in the heart of the earth for three days?
You believe these verses were meant to be interpreted. Could you show me which scripture in the Bible you used to confirm your beliefs.

Everything we read had to be interpreted because otherwise it would have no meaning. The same words and phrases mean different things to different people. Everyone does not interpret the Bible the same way; if they did then all Christians would agree on what it means in which case all Christians would believe the same way.

I do not believe that Jonah was in the fish's belly for three days and I do not believe that Jesus was in the heart of the earth for three days NOT because I doubt the power of God, but because it is not necessary to believe those events literally took place when I can instead choose to see them as having a metaphorical meaning.

nPeace said:
We have confirmation from scripture, that what Jesus said, here, should be taken literally.

(Matthew 16:21) From that time forward, Jesus began explaining to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes and be killed, and on the third day be raised up.
(Matthew 17:23) and they will kill him, and on the third day he will be raised up.” And they were very much grieved.

(Matthew 20:18, 19) “Look! We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of man will be handed over to the chief priests and the scribes. They will condemn him to death 19 and hand him over to men of the nations to be mocked and scourged and executed on a stake; and on the third day he will be raised up.”
(Mark 8:31) Also, he began teaching them that the Son of man must undergo many sufferings and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes and be killed, and rise three days later.
(Luke 9:22) but he said: “The Son of man must undergo many sufferings and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes and be killed, and on the third day be raised up.”
(Luke 17:25) First, however, he must undergo many sufferings and be rejected by this generation.
(Luke 24:6-8) He is not here, but has been raised up. Recall how he spoke to you while he was yet in Galʹi·lee, 7 saying that the Son of man must be handed over to sinful men and be executed on the stake and on the third day rise.” 8 Then they remembered his words,
(Luke 24:46) and he said to them, “This is what is written: that the Christ would suffer and rise from among the dead on the third day,
(1 Corinthians 15:3, 4) For among the first things I handed on to you was what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; 4 and that he was buried, yes, that he was raised up on the third day according to the Scriptures;

I suppose you do not believe Moses lifted up a copper serpent either? (Numbers 21:9; 2 Kings 18:1-4)
(John 3:14) And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so the Son of man must be lifted up,

Whether you believe that Jesus rose from the dead in a physical body or not depends upon how you interpret the words “rise” and “dead” and “lifted up.” What was dead and what rose? What does it MEAN to rise from the dead? What does it MEAN to be lifted up? What actually rose? Nowhere in these verses do I see anything about a body being raised up.

- and on the third day be raised up.
- and on the third day he will be raised up.
- and rise three days later.
- and on the third day be raised up.
- that the Christ would suffer and rise from among the dead on the third day.
- and that he was buried, yes, that he was raised up on the third day.

There is physical death and there is spiritual death. I believe that the spirit and the cause if Christ were raised up on the third day, not His physical body.. Below is one Baha’i explanation of the resurrection.

23: THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST

Question.—What is the meaning of Christ’s resurrection after three days?
Answer.—The resurrections of the Divine Manifestations are not of the body. All Their states, Their conditions, Their acts, the things They have established, Their teachings, Their expressions, Their parables and Their instructions have a spiritual and divine signification, and have no connection with material things......

Therefore, we say that the meaning of Christ’s resurrection is as follows: the disciples were troubled and agitated after the martyrdom of Christ. The Reality of Christ, which signifies His teachings, His bounties, His perfections and His spiritual power, was hidden and concealed for two or three days after His martyrdom, and was not resplendent and manifest. No, rather it was lost, for the believers were few in number and were troubled and agitated. The Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body; and when after three days the disciples became assured and steadfast, and began to serve the Cause of Christ, and resolved to spread the divine teachings, putting His counsels into practice, and arising to serve Him, the Reality of Christ became resplendent and His bounty appeared; His religion found life; His teachings and His admonitions became evident and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it.

Such is the meaning of the resurrection of Christ, and this was a true resurrection. But as the clergy have neither understood the meaning of the Gospels nor comprehended the symbols, therefore, it has been said that religion is in contradiction to science, and science in opposition to religion, as, for example, this subject of the ascension of Christ with an elemental body to the visible heaven is contrary to the science of mathematics. But when the truth of this subject becomes clear, and the symbol is explained, science in no way contradicts it; but, on the contrary, science and the intelligence affirm it.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 104-105

WhyIsThatSo · Mar 4, 2020

URAVIP2ME said:
I find the transfiguration was Not any transcendence but according to Matthew 17:9 it was a VISION.
People who died before Jesus died can have a physical resurrection (John 3:13)
No one who died before Jesus died is called to heavenly life - Act of the Apostles 2:34; Matthew 11:11.
The figurative living ' sheep ' at the coming 'time of separation' on Earth as found at Matthew 25:31-33,37
they are living people Not called to heavenly life but called to remain alive on Earth, and to continue living on Earth to be the foundation of Jesus' 1,000-year reign over Earth for a thousand years.
Only people like the people of Luke 22:28-30; Daniel 7:18 are called to heavenly life.
The majority of mankind can gain everlasting life on a beautiful paradisical Earth as Eden originally was.

ALL false

Trailblazer · Mar 4, 2020

WhyIsThatSo said:
"spirit" is what we are, not this "flesh" (physical body).

Yes, I am well aware of that.
I use the words spirit and soul interchangeably, because the human spirit is the same as the human soul.

The body is just a vehicle that carries the soul around while we are alive on earth, a place to house the soul. The soul animates the body and gives it life. The soul is our self, the sum total of the personality, the person himself; the physical body is pure matter with no real identity. The person, after he dies and leaves his physical body behind, goes to the spiritual world where the soul takes on a spiritual body made up of heavenly elements that exist in the spiritual realm. Since all we have ever experienced is physical, it is impossible for us to understand what it is like to be a spiritual being rather than a physical body.

WhyIsThatSo said:
And that "coming" occurs at the DEATH of the physical body. The "transfiguration" on the "mount" was to show them what will become of those that transcend this physical existence. This transcendence is also what is called "resurrection" of the "body".

I believe that every soul will transcend this physical existence and be resurrected to the spiritual world after physical death. The passage below is an apt description of what I believe will happen when we die.

421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. Heaven and Hell, p. 351

Trailblazer · Mar 4, 2020

WhyIsThatSo said:
ALL false

Why do you think that Christians who are reading the SAME verses believe so many different things about death and the afterlife?
Do you think it will matter what they believed after they die, if it was true or false?

Trailblazer · Mar 4, 2020

nPeace said:
The expression 'son of man' does not ultimately come from the Book of Daniel, but yes, Daniel did refer to the coming Messiah as son of man, and this referred to, prophetically, Jesus.
Why do you say, "Presumably the title is symbolic of the perfect humanity that Jesus represented"? On what basis... scripture (please quote the reference); just an assumption off the top of the head; Biblical definition?

I got this idea from a paper I was reading: Jesus Christ in the Bahá'í Writings

You said “Daniel did refer to the coming Messiah as son of man, and this referred to, prophetically, Jesus.” On what basis do you believe that Jesus was the Messiah/second coming?

nPeace said:
Do you believe because you want to, or on what basis?

I believe on the basis that Baha’u’llah fulfilled all the prophecies in the OT and the NT for the coming of the Messiah/return of Christ.

William Sears, Thief in the Night

nPeace said:
One right understanding. Millions of made up understandings, and misunderstandings, or misinterpretations.
When someone is talking with another, who misunderstand what was said, it is not just another interpretation. It is a misunderstanding - a wrong one.
The person speaking can correct that, by explaining what they meant.
Interpreting the Bible wrong, is the same as misunderstanding it.

If there is only one CORRECT meaning, then there is only one correct understanding. So the NT either means that Jesus was the Messiah that would come in the last days, or it does not mean that. It is a yes/no. Jesus is either coming of He isn’t. How do you think anyone can know given how many ways there are to interpret the Bible? And if Jesus was coming, what isn’t He here yet? The OT and NT prophecies can be demonstrated to have been fulfilled.

nPeace said:
The Bible itself - which evidently is God's word - can explain what is meant... if we "listen to what the spirit has to say", because "the word of God is alive". Hebrews 4:12; Revelation 2:7

That presents a serious logical problem. Most Christians say that the Bible can explain what it means but they all do not agree on what it means, so is the spirit saying different things to different people?.

nPeace said:
ONLY to Jesus in the Gospels.
Jesus referred to himself only. He did not switch the identity to another. Did I not go through that?

Jesus referred to Himself as the Son of man, but Jesus did not refer to Himself as the Son of man who was coming in the clouds. Jesus said you will SEE the Son of man coming in the clouds. Jesus never said you will see ME. Moreover…

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

nPeace said:
Trailblazer said: No, it is not an either/or. Son of man can refer to more than one man. Where in scripture does it say that it refers exclusively to Jesus?

In the Gospels.... by Jesus himself... numerous times... exclusively.
I hope you are reading my posts through.

Jesus was the Son of man, but where in scripture does it say that the title Son of man refers exclusively to Jesus?

Baha’u’llah was the return of the Son of man because he was the return of the Christ Spirit.

Baha’u’llah was also one like the Son of man (see Daniel 7:13)

nPeace said:
Aha. A claim by a wanna be prophet. Who sent him, or did he run himself? Why do you believe?

That was not my basis for believing that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God, the Messiah and the return of Christ. That was only my basis for believing that Baha’u’llah was the return of the Son of man. Actually, Baha’u’llah did not even make the claim to BE the return of the Son of man. Baha’u’llah claimed to be the return of Christ, so that is now I knew he had to be the return of the Son of man. Baha’u’llah also explained in great detail what “return of Son of man in the clouds” means.

The reason I believe Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God, the Messiah and the return of Christ is because of the voluminous evidence that indicates He was. Do you want to know what that evidence is?

nPeace said:
You consider that presumptuous??? I consider it wise, and in keeping with what is written in scripture.
We have a complete script, starting with Genesis, and concluding with the book of Revelation, that says this...
"But in the days when the seventh angel is about to blow his trumpet, the sacred secret that God declared as good news to his own slaves the prophets is indeed brought to a finish.” (Revelation 10:7)
...and this...
"And I saw in heaven another sign, great and wonderful, seven angels with seven plagues. These are the last ones, because by means of them the anger of God is brought to a finish." (Revelation 15:1)

You have a complete script of the Bible but who is to say that the Bible is the only scripture that was ever revealed by God?

It is a Baha’i belief that the Seventh Angel was Baha’u’llah.

11: COMMENTARY ON THE ELEVENTH CHAPTER OF THE REVELATION OF ST. JOHN

nPeace said:
...and concludes with this...
“I am bearing witness to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things that are written about in this scroll." (Revelation 22:18, 19)
...among other things.
Also, it warns against doing the very things you and your Bahaian friends are doing.

The Baha’is are not adding to the Bible, we simply interpret some of it differently than Christians.

nPeace said:
Can one not tell when someone is twisting another's words?
Sometimes a person is listening to someone speaking, and while they understand what is said, others misunderstand.

Why does that person understand, whereas the others don't?
There are two reasons apparently ... 1) They listen carefully, and don't have presumptions. 2) They know the person - being familiar with their likes, dislikes, etc.

I was not referring to what you said and someone misunderstanding you. I do not know what this has to do with understanding the Bible? How do you know what Jesus intended to say?

nPeace said:
(Mark 4:24, 25) 24 He further said to them: “Pay attention to what you are hearing. With the measure that you are measuring out, you will have it measured out to you, yes, you will have more added to you. 25 For whoever has will have more given to him, but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.”
(John 8:31, 32) 31 Then Jesus went on to say to the Jews who had believed him: “If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

There are many other scripture, but I won't swamp you, especially since I feel certain they won't be clear to you.
The point is... God know who belong to him, and one cannot disregard his word, and belong to him... according to scripture. 2 Timothy 3:16, 17. Jesus and his disciples quoted, or made reference to practically the entire Tanakh.

Sadly, I do understand. You are no different than any of the other Christians I talk to who believe they are special and chosen, a cut above the other Christians who “just don’t understand.” Humble Christians are hard to come by but I run into them once in a while.

Can we know if the Bible is the word of God? Evidently, yes, and a thorough investigation reveals it is..

nPeace said:
Did I not say, interpretation belongs to God? Why ask me the question 'Who gave you the authority to interpret the Bible?'

God interprets. The scriptures - his word - reveals what they mean, where that is needed. Matthew 13:10-16.

I think this conversation is almost over. I cannot talk to people who are irrational. God does not interpret anything for us. God gave us all free will and a brain so we could read and interpret what we read.

nPeace said:
Can you really prove that you believe the Bible to be a revelation from God.

Sure I can prove it. Baha’u’llah wrote that the Bible is “God’s greatest testimony to His creatures” and since I believe that Baha’u’llah was infallible hopefully you can do the math.

nPeace said:
The Jews believe the entire Tanakh - from Genesis to Malachi. That's their history. Do you agree with them?

Did Moses make a copper serpent, which he lifted up in the wilderness? Did Jesus refer to his death and resurrection to be comparative to what Moses did, and what happened to Jonah? Do you believe Jesus?
I got a response from you earlier, that demonstrates there is a whole lot of stuff in the Bible, which you don't believe.
Do you believe the Israelites were delivered, by the leadership of Moses, from slavery in Egypt, and crossed the sea on dry land?

In order to understand how Baha’is view the Bible, I think you should read some authoritative statements compiled by Research Department of the Universal House of Justice.

The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments

Then come back and ask me any questions you might have.

IndigoChild5559 · Mar 4, 2020

Trailblazer said:
In the video David C. Pack says that Jesus will build the Kingdom of God on earth, but Jesus never said He was going to return to earth to build the Kingdom of God.

Those who know anything of the Bible know that Jesus never promised to return, not once in the New Testament. Jesus told His followers to pray for the Kingdom to come, and indicated that it will come because it is God’s Will.

Matthew 6:9-10 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

In the video David C. Pack says “vast numbers today are looking for and desiring Christ’s coming... They do desire it and it’s obvious why. This world has endless problems and is spiraling out of control. People know Christ must come soon or there will be no planet to come to.”

I agree that the Kingdom of God must come soon or there will be no planet to come to.

But desiring something is not going to make it happen. Jesus never promised to return to earth. Jesus said that His work was finished here and He was no more in the world (John 17:4, John 17:11). Moreover, when Jesus died on the cross Jesus said “It is finished” (John 19:30).

Not only that, but Jesus said that His Kingdom is not of this world and Jesus denied being a king (John 18:36-37).

Jesus never said He is bringing a Kingdom at all, not once in the entire New Testament. This really bothers me because I consider it a complete fabrication and a distortion of Jesus’ own words.

In the video David C. Pack says “the apostles knew the tiny nature of the Kingdom at its outset. God’s Kingdom is akin to microscopic when it arrives. It eventually grows into a world government but it doesn’t start that way. Jesus said literally He is bringing an encrypted Kingdom.”

I fully agree that God’s Kingdom will be microscopic when it arrives, but it will eventually grow into a world government. However, Jesus never “literally said” He is bringing an encrypted Kingdom. In fact, Jesus never said that He was bringing in a Kingdom at all.

In the video David C. Pack says “Christ’s Message is clear, God’s Kingdom starts tiny and hidden, and you must find it.”

I fully agree that God’s Kingdom starts tiny and hidden, and you must find it. That indicates that it might already be right under our noses and most people have not found it.

In the video David C. Pack says there are four components to a kingdom

1. Land, property, or territory
2. A ruler or a king
3. People or subjects
4. A system of laws or rules

I agree that there will be four components to the Kingdom of God, but I do not agree there will be one ruler who will rule like an earthly king

In summation, I agree with much of what David C. Pack says on the video. I believe that the Kingdom of God will come to earth in a similar fashion to what he depicted. The salient problem is that Jesus will not be the one bringing the Kingdom of God to earth because that cannot be reconciled to the words Jesus spoke in the New Testament.

So as I see it we have a choice: We can either believe what the New Testament says or we can believe what Christianity teaches. Both cannot be true since they are contradictory.

What is Gods Kingdom? It is where he is obeyed. In the heavens, the sun and moon and stars follow in their courses, obeying his laws for them. In the heavenly realm, the Angels obey him. Some day, all of humanity will obey him. At that point, God's kingdom will be on earth as well.

IndigoChild5559 · Mar 4, 2020

WhyIsThatSo said:
And that "coming" occurs at the DEATH of the physical body. The "transfiguration" on the "mount" was to show them what will become of those that transcend this physical existence. This transcendence is also what is called "resurrection" of the "body".

When this physical body is transformed into the true Spiritual body that we all possess but in "infancy".
"spirit" is what we are, not this "flesh" (physical body).

We are spirits with bodies. Even after the resurrection, we will have bodies, and live upon the earth. God already has spirit beings -- they are called Angels. If he wanted more, he could have made them. But he chose to make beings with corporeal bodies.

Trailblazer · Mar 4, 2020

IndigoChild5559 said:
Some day, all of humanity will obey him. At that point, God's kingdom will be on earth as well.

I fully agree. When everyone knows God, everyone will obey God. Then the Kingdom will come.

Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

WhyIsThatSo · Mar 5, 2020

IndigoChild5559 said:
We are spirits with bodies. Even after the resurrection, we will have bodies, and live upon the earth. God already has spirit beings -- they are called Angels. If he wanted more, he could have made them. But he chose to make beings with corporeal bodies.

We are "Spirit" period, that has been "trapped" in physical matter (bodies).

CG Didymus · Mar 5, 2020

Trailblazer said:
I do not believe that Jonah was in the fish's belly for three days and I do not believe that Jesus was in the heart of the earth for three days NOT because I doubt the power of God, but because it is not necessary to believe those events literally took place when I can instead choose to see them as having a metaphorical meaning.

Trailblazer said:
Whether you believe that Jesus rose from the dead in a physical body or not depends upon how you interpret the words “rise” and “dead” and “lifted up.” What was dead and what rose? What does it MEAN to rise from the dead? What does it MEAN to be lifted up? What actually rose? Nowhere in these verses do I see anything about a body being raised up.

Was the story literal and reasonably accurate about the crucifixion and the burial of Jesus? If so, then he died and was put in a tomb. Then what happened? All four gospels tell the story of Jesus appearing and disappearing. Jesus says to touch him and see that he has flesh and bone and is not a ghost.

Not literal? The writers went from reporting the facts as they saw them about the death and burial? But then made up a metaphorical resurrection story? If it didn't happen, if Jesus didn't rise from the dead, then Christians are the biggest religious frauds ever. But, Baha'is aren't saying that. Baha'is do believe the resurrection story... just not as an actual, literal, historical event. That all four writers got "inspired" by God to write a profound metaphorical story about Jesus? And the true meaning is that the followers were feeling down for three days then got off their butts are starting teaching about the love and goodness that Jesus spoke about? Sorry, Abdul Baha's explanation isn't all the good. Do you really believe it? He is supposed to be infallible isn't he?

I still go with... if it didn't really happen, then it was passed on oral traditions that finally got written down. And each writer tells it slightly differently. But there had to be several people still alive that could have denied or confirmed it? Yet, the early Church confirmed it. They say Jesus rose from the dead and they and others saw him or knew people who had. But do we trust any of them? I find it hard to trust them when in the gospels it says a bunch of "saints" came out of their graves and walked around Jerusalem. Baha'is say, can't be literally true so let's give it a symbolic meaning? I say... probably all mystical embellishments to make Jesus and God bigger and more powerful than all the other "false" gods of the Greeks and Romans. But, I still say... if it didn't really happen, then it is myth.

Trailblazer · Mar 5, 2020

IndigoChild5559 said:
We are spirits with bodies. Even after the resurrection, we will have bodies, and live upon the earth. God already has spirit beings -- they are called Angels. If he wanted more, he could have made them. But he chose to make beings with corporeal bodies.

What is the scriptural basis for the belief that we will rise from the dead and live on earth in physical bodies for all of eternity? Just because God wants us to have physical bodies NOW, that does not mean God intended for us to carry them around forever. That makes no logical sense to me.

I did not know that the resurrection of bodies was a teaching of Judaism.

Trailblazer · Mar 5, 2020

WhyIsThatSo said:
We are "Spirit" period, that has been "trapped" in physical matter (bodies).

It is just a temporary arrangement but we will be freed from these bodies when we enter the spiritual world, just as a bird is freed from a cage. We will then have some form, a spiritual body, but it will have no limitations as do our physical bodies.

“How does it feel to be 'dead'? One can't explain, because there's nothing in it! I simply felt free and light. My being seemed to have expanded. These are mere words. I can only tell you just this: that death is nothing unseemly or shocking……

I will tell you what I felt like. It was as if I had been running hard until, hot and breathless, I had thrown my overcoat away. The coat was my body, and if I had not thrown it away I should have suffocated. I cannot describe the experience in a better way; there is nothing else to describe……..

When I lived in a physical body I never thought much about it. My health was fair. I knew very little about physiology. Now that I am living under other conditions I remain incurious as to that through which I express myself. By this I mean that I am still evidently in a body of some sort, but 'l' can tell you very little about it. It has no interest for me. It is convenient, does not ache or tire, seems similar in formation to my old body. There is a subtle difference, but I cannot attempt analysis.”
Private Dowding

WhyIsThatSo · Mar 5, 2020

Trailblazer said:
It is just a temporary arrangement but we will be freed from these bodies when we enter the spiritual world, just as a bird is freed from a cage. We will then have some form, a spiritual body, but it will have no limitations as do our physical bodies.

“How does it feel to be 'dead'? One can't explain, because there's nothing in it! I simply felt free and light. My being seemed to have expanded. These are mere words. I can only tell you just this: that death is nothing unseemly or shocking……

I will tell you what I felt like. It was as if I had been running hard until, hot and breathless, I had thrown my overcoat away. The coat was my body, and if I had not thrown it away I should have suffocated. I cannot describe the experience in a better way; there is nothing else to describe……..

When I lived in a physical body I never thought much about it. My health was fair. I knew very little about physiology. Now that I am living under other conditions I remain incurious as to that through which I express myself. By this I mean that I am still evidently in a body of some sort, but 'l' can tell you very little about it. It has no interest for me. It is convenient, does not ache or tire, seems similar in formation to my old body. There is a subtle difference, but I cannot attempt analysis.”
Private Dowding[/QUOTE

Yes, every person who has a near death experience (NDE) will express the same thoughts, in the same words, only
as they understand it personally. Because that's what it is......personal.

The NDE is that "grey area" when we are not fully dead and not fully alive either.
To those who don't know that we have more than one "body", beyond this physical flesh we have 6 other "bodies".
They are the "subtle bodies" , the matrix of matter that ascending "upward" will eventually transcend this physical realm.

And some people don't have to nearly experience death, they can go there at will.

Trailblazer · Mar 5, 2020

@ WhyIsThatSo

I do not believe that NDEs are representative of the death experience since those souls were not fully dead. What they do demonstrate is that we can have consciousness apart from the body.

I agree that some people can leave their body and be out of their body but unless they are physically DEAD I do not believe that can know what is on the other side.

The passage I posted was conveyed by a medium who was communicating with a soul who was fully dead. It was not an NDE experience.

How God’s Kingdom Will Come—Not What You Think!

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Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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