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To what extent did Jesus promote supersessionism?

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Furthermore, when more than one person claims to be Mahdi, the question arises as to who is the true Mahdi. Bahais will say that Bab was the true Mahdi, Ahmadiyyas will say that Mirza was the true Mahdi. There have been more than just these two Mahdis. So, it depends on what a person would agree to. There cannot be any more messenger because Mohammad said he was the last. But there can be a second son of God. If the Ghost/Spirit breathed into Mary, can it not do it again. Nothing, that I know, bars God to have a second son. Shiva has two, Rama had two. Of course, Krishna had many.

Adrian, I am neither making a statement on Bahais not asking them any question. I am talking about supersession in all Abrahamic 'One God' religions.
The topic is in religious debates. Why should I only ask questions? I am perfectly within the forum laws to express my opinion.

The OP is mostly directed at Christians. We’re starting from the premise that Christians are mostly correct in their beliefs about Jesus. He was the Son of God and the Promised Jewish Messiah. That is something most Christians believe. The problem for Christians is they believe in a Jewish Prophet who most Jews disbelieve. The belief in Christ is based on how Christians understand Hebrew Scriptures but Jews understand those same Scriptures very differently. Early on in Christianity’s history a schism arose between Judaism and this small Nazarene sect that arose from Judaism. As the centuries rolled on the animosity between these two religions never resolved and antisemitism arose. This culminated in the holocaust of WWIl where millions of Jews died at the hands of the Nazis. Although Nazis weren’t Christians, Germany was 95% Christian when Hitler was elected despite his open hatred of Jews. The aftermath of WWII left the world shocked at the horrors of the genocide that was laid bare for all to see. This led to soul searching amongst the Christian community who accepted some responsibility for what happened. So the question is essentially how can Christians view Jews as equals based on their understanding of both the New Testament and Hebrew Bible? Christianity is a diverse religion with many perspectives and nuances. So far there have been some excellent answers to the OP question.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Islam doesn't endorse supersessionism, since it endorses the Torah.
Jeremiah's new covenant (Jer 31:31-33) doesn't endorse supersessionism either, since the new covenant is with the same people as the old covenant.
According to Daniel the Messiah confirmed the covenant.

The problem is that many Muslims view both the Torah and Gospel as corrupted and not reflective of the Revelations brought by Moses and Jesus respectfully. So the Quran is seen as the only Holy book not corrupted. The Quran is seen as superseding the Torah and Gospel. Further Muhammad is seen as the final Prophet of all time so the Quran is the final Revelation. There are different perspectives amongst those believe in Muhammad and the Quran including ones that would reject supersessionism.

I agree Jeremiah 31:31-34 promises a New Covenant founded on previous Covenants. There are clearly approaches based on the New Testament where the Previous Covenants are fully validated.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Well, as I said, it is a never stopping process in Abrahamic religions. Moses cannot stop to be reevised by Jesus, Jesus cannot stop being revisd by Mohammad, Mohammad cannot stop being revised by Bahaollah, Bahaollah cannot stop being revised by Mirza Gholam Ahmad and Mirza Gholam Ahmad cannot stop being revised by .. since no one has to prove anything or give evidence.
No problem at all. The more, the merrier.
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
That’s one cryptic answer!
Sorry; I didn't intend my answer to be cryptic.
  • History lesson #1, from I Samuel, Chapters 21 and 22:
    • Saul, the first king of Israel, and David: Saul's son-in-law, best friend of Saul's son Jonathan, and early, loyal subject of Saul, had a falling out.
    • Fleeing Saul's anger, David and some trusted men hid out briefly in Nob. Hungry, David approached the High Priest Ahimelech and asked for food and weapons, claiming to be on a secret mission for the king, Saul.
    • Ahimilech gave David "show bread", i.e. holy bread, and Goliath's sword which was in Ahimelech's possession.
    • Doeg the Edomite, chief herdsman for Saul, happened to see David and Ahimelech interaction. David and his men moved on and eventually took refuge with the Philistines.
    • Doeg later told Saul about Ahimelech's assistance to David; Saul summoned Ahimelech and the priests with him and ordered the execution of all of them for aiding and abetting David.
    • When Saul's men refused to execute the priests, he ordered Doeg to execute them.
    • Doeg complied, killing 85 priests, and went on to kill all the inhabitants of Nob: men, women, children, and animals.
    • One son of Ahimelech escaped and went to David to tell him what had happened.
  • History lesson #2
    • Ahithophel was a counselor to King David, whose counsel was believed to be from God.
    • When David's son, Absalom, rebelled against David, hoping to take the place of his father as king, Ahithophel sided with Absalom who likewise valued Ahithophel reputation as a counselor.
    • Eventually, Absalom sought Ahithophel's counsel, Ahithophel gave it, and Absalom intended to follow it.
    • But before Absalom did so, a second man, Hushai (a friend of David's) pretended to change loyalties, from David to Absalom, and Absalom told him that he intended to follow Ahithophel's advice. Hushai proposed a second plan, much different from Ahithophel's, and Absalom decided to follow the latter advice.
    • Hearing of Absalom's decision, Ahithophel put his affairs in order and hung himself.
  • Now, in light of those two stories, read the portion of the Talmud that I quoted again:
    • The ministering angels ask God, if Doeg and Ahithophel show up in the world to come, won't David complain? And God is said to have answered: It's my job to reconcile them.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
The problem is that many Muslims view both the Torah and Gospel as corrupted and not reflective of the Revelations brought by Moses and Jesus respectfully. So the Quran is seen as the only Holy book not corrupted. The Quran is seen as superseding the Torah and Gospel. Further Muhammad is seen as the final Prophet of all time so the Quran is the final Revelation. There are different perspectives amongst those believe in Muhammad and the Quran including ones that would reject supersessionism.
Wish people would listen properly, I might sound harsh at times; yet my interests is the fate of humanity, and as a doctor sent from Heaven, if we look at the pulse of humanity it is the world's religions... I've already been given the diagnosis, I just need more assistance to rectify it.

The problem with modern Islam: is it became Muhammadanism after the universities created a hierarchical structure, where the religious zealots became threatened by it, so they created more tribalism within the Hadiths, and later derived scholarship.

If we go back to the Quran, it teaches to read all the religious texts as One without distinction (Quran 2:285); it is possible to make a true Muslim not accept supersession, as the Quran explicitly explains 'those who do pick and choose among the books are unbelievers' (Quran 4:150-151).

Pauline Christianity is Pharisaic, and they are bigots by definition, as Pharisee means to be set apart; where they believe they are chosen above the rest, by their doctrine being superior i.e supersessionism.

Because Pauline Christianity has debated Muhammadanism Vs Rabbinic Judaism, each with its own set apart mentality, each hasn't read all of the texts, so each of them are blinded in an eye, by not looking at the whole picture.

If we could educate people to stop making the Quran a book above the rest, and make it the glue showing the tests, mankind could stop competing which is the best.

It is only cult mentality that creates a form of supersessionism, as it is about following the leader; true religion is about empowering people to be more spiritual, to then connect to the Source of reality themselves.

John, Paul, and Simon created a cult mentality movement called Christianity, on top of a fringe movement of the real messianic prophecy; this superiority system then created backlashes through human history, of religions becoming more cult like.

To end supersessionism we need to bring people back to a true understanding of Oneness; that religion is about our moral social boundaries we all follow, not only some religious fascination with the divine...

Religion should be about understanding the wisdoms of the past, not who has the best understanding; as that is extremely selfish, thus not religious in principle.

Take into account Yeshua said to the Roman centurion he would be in the Kingdom, and the people of the book would be kicked out (Matthew 8:5-13); Muhammad said the same...

In other words these cult based religions who claim we have to follow the leader, are not even reading the texts; as the religious texts blatantly explain it isn't about a doctrine, it is about the wisdom to see that everything comes from One Source of reality.

Yeshua was a fulfilment of prophecy globally, and therefore in his own statements of telling people to follow his teachings to receive of the kingdom, isn't really supersession, if it is exact fulfilment of specific prophecy.

In my opinion. :innocent:
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
In that sense his name was Israel, not Jacob. Jacob can mean supplanter.

Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us;
Hosea 12:4


first a place is renamed then a person.

bethel = house of god
israel = soldier of god


in both places it is night, jacob is under stress, and jacob is resting fitfully.

and no, he didn't have power over the angel, he had power with the angel.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
It cpuld be said with your views on immigration has you theologically departing from Christ, who said what you do unto the least among you so also you have done into him.
Your point being what? Christ demands that civil law be broken?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Your point being what? Christ demands that civil law be broken?
He demands you treat everyone, basically, as you would him. Jesus wouldn't tell immigrants to go home or turn them away, he would feed and clothe them without asking about their immigration or resident status, then give a parable on how it doesn't matter as he explains we are all children of god and damn anyone who mistreats the less fortunate.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
The problem is that many Muslims view both the Torah and Gospel as corrupted and not reflective of the Revelations brought by Moses and Jesus respectfully. So the Quran is seen as the only Holy book not corrupted.
To resolve the problem the extent and nature of the corruption of the Torah and the Gospel has the identified. One way of doing this is by comparing the messages of the respective texts, which leads to the scribes and Pharisees as the most probable source if the corruption.

Further Muhammad is seen as the final Prophet of all time so the Quran is the final Revelation.
The phrase "seal of the prophets" is open to interpretation. Attempting to own the interpretation is typical of the religious hierarchy, and Islam is as vulnerable to this as any other religion.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
What is Supersessionism? According to wikipedia;

Supersessionism, also called replacement theology, is a Christian doctrine which asserts that the New Covenant through Jesus Christ supersedes the Old Covenant, which was made exclusively with the Jewish people.

In Christianity, supersessionism is a theological view on the current status of the church in relation to the Jewish people and Judaism. It holds that the Christian Church has succeeded the Israelites as the definitive people of God or that the New Covenant has replaced or superseded the Mosaic covenant. From a supersessionist's "point of view, just by continuing to exist [outside the Church], the Jews dissent". This view directly contrasts with dual-covenant theology which holds that the Mosaic covenant remains valid for Jews.

Supersessionism has formed a core tenet of the Christian Churches for the majority of their existence. Christian traditions that have traditionally championed dual-covenant theology (including the Roman Catholic, Reformed and Methodist teachings of this doctrine), have taught that the moral law continues to stand.

Supersessionism - Wikipedia

I see problems with supersessionism. I'm trying to better understand the concept not just in regards Christianity but Islam and the Baha'i Faith too. It would be interesting to hear to what extent the Founders of these religions taught supersessionism. However, a consideration of Christianity in relation to Judaism is a logical starting place.

Supersessionism/replacement theology/dominion now is undone by Jesus's promise that the Jewish people would greet His Return to the Mount of Olives!
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Well, as I said, it is a never stopping process in Abrahamic religions. Moses cannot stop to be reevised by Jesus, Jesus cannot stop being revisd by Mohammad, Mohammad cannot stop being revised by Bahaollah, Bahaollah cannot stop being revised by Mirza Gholam Ahmad and Mirza Gholam Ahmad cannot stop being revised by .. since no one has to prove anything or give evidence.
No problem at all. The more, the merrier.

If God exists then His Revelation to humanity is never ending. It doesn’t stop but you are off topic in this thread. We’re not trying to work out whether or not any of the people you mention are legitimate or not. You are a strong atheist so for you there is no God and no Prophets. I accept that about you and I’m not trying to convince you God exists. I’m encouraging you to engage more meaningfully in conversations with those who have very different beliefs to you.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Now, in light of those two stories, read the portion of the Talmud that I quoted again:
  • The ministering angels ask God, if Doeg and Ahithophel show up in the world to come, won't David complain? And God is said to have answered: It's my job to reconcile them.

Thanks for the history lesson. So with all the nefarious interactions between peoples with different values and competing agendas don’t we have a role to repair relationships? How about preventing relationships from becoming toxic? One of the lessons from the relationship between the Jews and Christians is the necessity of doing what we can to make relationships better in this world.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Wish people would listen properly, I might sound harsh at times; yet my interests is the fate of humanity, and as a doctor sent from Heaven, if we look at the pulse of humanity it is the world's religions... I've already been given the diagnosis, I just need more assistance to rectify it.

I hate to break it to you kiddo but you’re not the one.


The problem with modern Islam: is it became Muhammadanism after the universities created a hierarchical structure, where the religious zealots became threatened by it, so they created more tribalism within the Hadiths, and later derived scholarship.

The problem with Islam is Ali should have been the successor after Muhammad. But what you say has merit.

If we go back to the Quran, it teaches to read all the religious texts as One without distinction (Quran 2:285); it is possible to make a true Muslim not accept supersession, as the Quran explicitly explains 'those who do pick and choose among the books are unbelievers' (Quran 4:150-151).

I agree the Torah, Gospel and Quran should all be considered Divine Revelation and its wrong to dispense with any of these books. Clearly none within mainstream Judaism, Christianity or Islam accept all three books. To call them unbelievers is too strong.

Pauline Christianity is Pharisaic, and they are bigots by definition, as Pharisee means to be set apart; where they believe they are chosen above the rest, by their doctrine being superior i.e supersessionism.

I would consider the rejection of Paul akin to the rejection of Christ. We’ll have to agree to disagree.

Because Pauline Christianity has debated Muhammadanism Vs Rabbinic Judaism, each with its own set apart mentality, each hasn't read all of the texts, so each of them are blinded in an eye, by not looking at the whole picture.

Many have read the others texts but the majority haven’t. Reading and Studying each other’s sacred writings won’t necessarily lead to belief but its an essential starting point.

If we could educate people to stop making the Quran a book above the rest, and make it the glue showing the tests, mankind could stop competing which is the best.

As a member of a religion that has been persecuted by Muslims in numerous countries I can assure you this mindset is hard to change.

It is only cult mentality that creates a form of supersessionism, as it is about following the leader; true religion is about empowering people to be more spiritual, to then connect to the Source of reality themselves.

Unfortunately supersessionism is part of mainstream Islam and Christianity. At least Christianity has some capacity for self reflection and change.

John, Paul, and Simon created a cult mentality movement called Christianity, on top of a fringe movement of the real messianic prophecy; this superiority system then created backlashes through human history, of religions becoming more cult like

I disagree.

To end supersessionism we need to bring people back to a true understanding of Oneness; that religion is about our moral social boundaries we all follow, not only some religious fascination with the divine...

I agree somewhat.

Religion should be about understanding the wisdoms of the past, not who has the best understanding; as that is extremely selfish, thus not religious in principle.

Sure

Take into account Yeshua said to the Roman centurion he would be in the Kingdom, and the people of the book would be kicked out (Matthew 8:5-13); Muhammad said the same...

In other words these cult based religions who claim we have to follow the leader, are not even reading the texts; as the religious texts blatantly explain it isn't about a doctrine, it is about the wisdom to see that everything comes from One Source of reality.

Yeshua was a fulfilment of prophecy globally, and therefore in his own statements of telling people to follow his teachings to receive of the kingdom, isn't really supersession, if it is exact fulfilment of specific prophecy.

In my opinion. :innocent:

Let’s see.
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
  1. So with all the nefarious interactions between peoples with different values and competing agendas don’t we have a role to repair relationships?
  2. How about preventing relationships from becoming toxic?
  3. One of the lessons from the relationship between the Jews and Christians is the necessity of doing what we can to make relationships better in this world.
Re: #1. Relationships between who?
Re: #2: Which relationship do you think are toxic and how do you think "we" should go about preventing them from becoming toxic?
Re: #3: IMO, one of the lessons from the relationship between the Jews and Christians that I observe is that the quickest way to make a relationship worse--if I'm a member of one or the other "offended" parties--is to tell the other party that they're doing everything all wrong, or to tell members of my party that we're doing it all wrong. Somebody's going to beat me up.
If I'm not a member of either party and I try to tell both parties that they're doing it all wrong, both sides are likely to ignore me or agree to beat me up. To paraphrase Psalm 127:1, "Except the Lord repairs the relationship, they labor in vain who work on repairing it."
However, those are things I've observed just watching humans interact, ... before I first met a Jew.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
If a male says to self God or Allah is my own human being.

Yet in science he says that God is the stone...for science and machine reasons, then he is speaking about 2 different self inferred concepts.

For a human would know as a consciousness if O the planet God stone or Allah the stone did not exist....meaning that no other form of words is applied to own any meaning.

other than the word of the Planet O the body upon which life is supported....STONE.

So if you said no stone in science, or what existed before stone became stone, your words would be burning spirit, gases. And then burn the gases that we live within....named as Satanism, against self.

If you wanted to defend the right for your own self to live as a human on what you said is a Holy state...was once burning then became a stone body and stone supported your life.

Then you made it a male holy symbolic spiritual purpose for human self and human teachings against science destruction/attack forced changes to the natural body.

The reason for the self human teachings.

Humans gave the entitled superior intelligence in speaking to their own persons....as a claim and a place to argue relativity about personal human spiritualism.

So I can say as a spiritual human, science keeps pretending it knows what body was existing before it became space and a creation.

I can make that same claim by speaking and using explanation and name it eternal.

And say God the body mass of O came from eternal and burnt and evolved, so it is holy today because it evolved.

I can also claim and our Nature spirit only emerged out of eternal when the gases filled back in space....gases/spirit owned by the planet and we use them spiritually.

And not be told I am wrong for just thinking and telling a story. For science does exactly the same condition.

Yet science on Earth is all about God the stone mass/matter for if it did not exist they could not build machines....being what they are all lying about today.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
I hate to break it to you kiddo but you’re not the one.
Since you've got no proof for that, and we've got overwhelming evidence, that is an illogical statement; which we could diagnose as mental illness, to assume something doesn't exist, that we can show.
The problem with Islam is Ali should have been the successor after Muhammad.
We see hereditary succession in the Bible, and apostolic succession going wrong, as neither is Kosher; Saul was removed as king, God appoints David by soul record, not by his family line.
To call them unbelievers is too strong.
Calling them unbelievers as the text states, is slight in comparison; the Bible, Zoroastrian, Quran & Hindu texts all say the Source of reality is going to remove them from reality by Holy Fire in a Day, as they are all Adharmic - there is only one religion according to the texts.

Quran 4:150-151 Indeed, those who disbelieve in Allah and His messengers and wish to discriminate between Allah and His messengers and say, "We believe in some and disbelieve in others," and wish to adopt a way in between - Those are the disbelievers, truly. And We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment.

Revelation 10:11 They told me, “You must prophesy again over many peoples, nations, languages, and kings.”

Yasna 16:3. And we worship the former religions of the world devoted to Righteousness which were instituted at the creation, the holy religions of the Creator Ahura Mazda (Lord of Wisdom), the resplendent and glorious. And we worship Vohu Manah (the Good Mind), and Asha Vahishta (who is Righteousness the Best), and Khshathra-vairya, (the divine Kingdom to be desired), and the good and bountiful Armaiti (true piety in the believers), and Haurvatat and Ameretat (our Weal and Immortality).

Kalki Purana 3:26 By the influence of this horse and parrot, the people of the world will know You as a learned scholar of all scriptures who is a master of the art of releasing arrows, and thus the conqueror of all.

I would consider the rejection of Paul akin to the rejection of Christ. We’ll have to agree to disagree.
There is overwhelming evidence to make a case of where Paul contradicts Christ, there are award winning theologians throughout history who have recognized where and why Paul differs.

I don't mind if you have a logical assessment of Paul based on advanced Jewish thinking, that Paul does so on purpose for the sake of removing the Lawless; yet to blindly follow Paul as you like his poetic wording, isn't Godly of me to leave you sinning knowingly...

Thus I accept you disagree; yet will debate the errors until Judgement Day - As like the Bhagavad Gita made clear to Arjuna, that the destruction (Mahapralaya) comes anyway; so we should try to educate righteously before it. :purpleheart:
Many have read the others texts but the majority haven’t. Reading and Studying each other’s sacred writings won’t necessarily lead to belief but its an essential starting point.
There is a character defined in multiple textual references who is blind in an eye, and withered in its right arm, who is the definition of the Anti-Christ.

In Zechariah 11:15-17 this character is defined as those who lead the flock, whilst the Diaspora among the Gentiles has taken place.

In the Sefer of Zerubbabel - Armilus is defined as a False Messiah in Rome, who has taken over the true Messiah's position in the same place ('jesus' Vs "Yeshua").

In the Hadiths the Al-Masih ad-Dajjal is blind in one eye, and it means the false Messiah.

If people studied the texts, as the texts instructed they are not called Gentiles; otherwise those who are unlettered are lazy and ignorant in ancient times, thus were called Gentiles.

I get in a modern crazy world people are entitled to believe what they want; this is why Christ comes back before Judgement Day, as people are Adharmic (Revelation 16:15-16 => Revelation 3:3).
Unfortunately supersessionism is part of mainstream Islam and Christianity. At least Christianity has some capacity for self reflection and change.
Educated Muslims can accept educated concepts; the problem is Muhammadanism has taken over - if this was at an academic level, where the Messiah corrected it, I believe it could be changed.

Christianity (John, Paul, and Simon) is a deliberate contradiction to establish that some people can be hypocritical; it created the supersession about the fake idol 'jesus', when Yeshua is a fulfilment of many of the world's religious ideas, the wise men were Zoroastrian, and Yehoshua was King David reincarnated, therefore it wasn't replacing - it was more establishing prophecy was real.

This could happen again, like the Messianic age can be a fulfilment of all religion, and we come to an age of enlightenment through education online, the choice is yours...

It depends if people can be realistic for the fate of humanity to take Messianic prophecy seriously; ultimately it is already prophesied people won't listen (Quran 43:60-77, etc), and the consequences is the end of humanity soon in the Great Tribulation.

The Quran 43:65 literally says people will not understand the 2nd coming because of 'Factions/Divisions' i.e the supersession caused the formulation of Muhammadanism; instead of Islam being about Oneness of all religion as One (Tawheed - Quran 2:285).

In my opinion. :innocent:
 
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shmogie

Well-Known Member
He demands you treat everyone, basically, as you would him. Jesus wouldn't tell immigrants to go home or turn them away, he would feed and clothe them without asking about their immigration or resident status, then give a parable on how it doesn't matter as he explains we are all children of god and damn anyone who mistreats the less fortunate.
So then, you believe that Christ expects governments to feed and clothe immigrants and then welcome tem into the country?

The Roman government of His time treated people abysmally. The poor were brutalized.

Yet Christ never mentioned any of it. He had the chance to speak to the Roman governor of the province, yet said nothing about how the government treated people.

Why?

Christ was addressing His followers and their individual relationships to people, not national governments.

I find it interesting that some people cite Christ as the reason why what they want done in one case, by the government, but deny His principles be employed in other area's.

I would have the direct responsibility to help anyone in need whom I came across.

The government has the responsibility to make the laws, and enforce them. In this case, certainly in the best interest of the country.

Our government, as I have been reminded so many times, is not a Christian government.

Christ said to render unto Caesar what is his, tax money. Christ never said that that money should be used in a way that is not a benefit to the taxpayer, spent on people of a different culture, a different language, different nation, who trek long distances, to have that tax money spent on them.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
The problem is that many Muslims view both the Torah and Gospel as corrupted and not reflective of the Revelations brought by Moses and Jesus respectfully. So the Quran is seen as the only Holy book not corrupted. The Quran is seen as superseding the Torah and Gospel. Further Muhammad is seen as the final Prophet of all time so the Quran is the final Revelation. There are different perspectives amongst those believe in Muhammad and the Quran including ones that would reject supersessionism.

I agree Jeremiah 31:31-34 promises a New Covenant founded on previous Covenants. There are clearly approaches based on the New Testament where the Previous Covenants are fully validated.

Several errors were made.

1. It is not the Islamic view that the Torah and Gospel are corrupted. It is the view of some Muslims but its an uneducated view. The view of the school of Medina, the first madhab of Ibn Anas if you consider that Islamic is that the Torah and the Gospel may not ever have been in writing like the Quran. You associated words. I get what you say, but I completely disagree.

2. The Quran is not seen as superseding the Torah and the Gospel. It is seen as the confirmation of the Torah, Zaboor, and Gospel. You have got the wrong picture from Muslim apologetics but I disagree with your statement about Quran being the supersession because that is not the Islamic view.

Peace.
 
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