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The biogeographic evidence for evolution

ecco

Veteran Member
There are foolish people everywhere, there are even--can you believe it?--people on THIS forum who claim there is no god! They must think the thousands of posters and lurkers who are theistic are all insane! They must have the biggest conspiracy theory ever--99% of people are nuts!

Can you point to any atheist who believes that all theists are insane? No? So, that's just something you made up to bad-mouth atheists.


I can't speak for all atheists, but I don't believe all people who believe in a god are insane. In fact, most people I know believe in a god and I don't think any of them are insane.

However, it is easily provable that most god-belief is the result of early childhood indoctrination. There is no other way to explain the fact that most god-believers born and raised in India believe Shiva is the god or that most god-believers born and raised in the Middle East believe Muhammed is the god or that most god-believers born and raised in Italy believe the Catholic version or that most god-believers born and raised in Alabama believe the Protestant version.

Perhaps you have a more rational explanation for these regional beliefs.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
I've known since I was a (Jewish) child, for one example, that Daniel prophesied Alexander the Great, and grew up with the (alleged) tale that Alexander was delighted to learn he was prophesied in Daniel and made obeisance and offerings at the Temple.

You've known since you were a child that Daniel prophesied Alexander the Great? You grew up with the tale that Alexander was delighted to learn he was prophesied in Daniel?


What you are saying (admitting) is that as a child you were indoctrinated into certain beliefs with stories from the bible. When you were still a child, no one ever told you the stories were only as real as the stories of Santa Clause. Rather, your religious "education" just continued and intensified. And here you are.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I just rolled up to 1062, where you opined on a number of subjects, chiding me, and with only one question:

Prove your claim: There are experienced sailors who today claim the Earth is flat.

There are countless local fishermen who fish within a few miles of their homes, worldwide, many of them claim the Earth is flat. Why do you doubt this?

I doubt it because a person can see the curvature of the earth with their own eyes; especially someone who's been out at sea ... Like a sailor, which is what you had originally said and what we were originally talking about, as you can see from the quote you've provided.

Now you're saying that "local fisherman who fish within a few miles of their homes" claim that the Earth is flat. Well, that's slightly different from what we were initially talking about, isn't it? Local fishermen and sailors are different things. Nevertheless, I still require some evidence that there are sailors who think the Earth is flat. Who are these people you are talking about? How do you know they believe the Earth is flat?
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
With regarding to your last point (point 4).

In Daniel 12’s last 3 verses, it talk of sacrifices being denied for certain amount of time:



Can you tell me when ever was burnt offerings were being taken from the people “for 1290 days” (Daniel 12:11), during Jesus’ lifetime? During his ministry?

1290 days is roughly for about 3 1/2 year, BilliardsBall?

It never happened at any time while Jesus was alive.

The only time that I recall in history are the events that occurred during Antiochus IV’s reign (175 - 164 BCE).

But it wasn’t a single event (eg Onias’ death) that caused the Maccabean Revolt.

Onias was high priest before Antiochus’ reign, but was forced to resign when Jason managed to bribe Antiochus for the office of high priesthood. But Jason lost this office in the same manner after Menelaus also bribed Antiochus, and became the new high priest.

When the still influential Onias among the Jews, heard of Menelaus plundering the Temple, Onias denounced Menelaus, which made him a target for assassination.

Not long after that, in 168 BCE when Antiochus’ failed campaign in Egypt, he discovered that Jason had drove out Menelaus, and taken Jerusalem, after the false news of Antiochus’ death, Antiochus ordered his army to retake Jerusalem and butchered Jews there. Tens of thousands were slaughtered.

In 167 BCE, Antiochus ordered all sacrifices to be stopped, and had defiled the Temple by erecting altar to worship the Greek gods.

These events - the assassination of Onias, the feud between Jason and Menelaus, the persecutions of Jews that followed, and the decree that only allowed Greek gods to be worshipped on the Temple ground - accumulated for the Maccabean Revolt (167 - 160 BCE).

A series of victories against the Seleucid army, eventually led to the Maccabees entering Jerusalem. The younger brother of Judah Maccabeus was appointed as high priest, hence begun the cleansing of the Temple, ridding the Greek altar, and restoration of Jewish religious customs.

1290 days referred to Antiochus’ decree, to the time of Antiochus’ death in 164 BCE.

His death didn’t stop the rebellion, the Maccabees continued to resist the Seleucid rule and against Hellenisd Jews.

Daniel 12:12 mentioned another period - of 1335 days - which almost equals to 3 years and nearly 8 months. This would be the continued struggle against the Seleucid ruler, Antiochus V, until the rebellion ended in 160 BCE.

No such dates (eg 1290 days and 1335 days) fit with the Temple “desolations” and “anointing” during Jesus’ lifetime.

No, BilliardsBall, I think the Book of Daniel was definitely written during or after the Revolt, and that Daniel was invented character.

Yes, there are two 1290 periods of sacrifices ceasing in prophecy:

1) Maccabean period

2) Revelation/Antichrist's reign

Daniel's prophesies in the same passage a total atonement for all human sin!
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
You've known since you were a child that Daniel prophesied Alexander the Great? You grew up with the tale that Alexander was delighted to learn he was prophesied in Daniel?


What you are saying (admitting) is that as a child you were indoctrinated into certain beliefs with stories from the bible. When you were still a child, no one ever told you the stories were only as real as the stories of Santa Clause. Rather, your religious "education" just continued and intensified. And here you are.
You've known since you were a child that Daniel prophesied Alexander the Great? You grew up with the tale that Alexander was delighted to learn he was prophesied in Daniel?


What you are saying (admitting) is that as a child you were indoctrinated into certain beliefs with stories from the bible. When you were still a child, no one ever told you the stories were only as real as the stories of Santa Clause. Rather, your religious "education" just continued and intensified. And here you are.

Yes, as a Jew I knew the myth that Alexander made offerings in the Jerusalem Temple. Also while I was a child, I knew what myths are and how to parse myths from reality.

What does that have to do with converting from Judaism to Christianity?
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Except that the Book of Daniel isn’t a prophecy of the Maccabean Revolt, because the author was living during it.

I understand your claim, however, the Maccabean period did not bring a total atonement for all human sin, and Daniel prophesied 483 years between the decree to rebuild Jerusalem and this event, Jesus's crucifixion and resurrection!
 

gnostic

The Lost One
I understand your claim, however, the Maccabean period did not bring a total atonement for all human sin, and Daniel prophesied 483 years between the decree to rebuild Jerusalem and this event, Jesus's crucifixion and resurrection!
If you understand the history of Judaea during Antiochus IV’s reign in Syria, he was one responsible for the normal Jewish sacrifices and religious customs being stop at the Temple, being replaced with the worship of the Greek gods.

That was the desolations and abomination for 1290 days (approximately 3.53 years) Daniel 12:11 was talking about.

This verse (12:11) had nothing to with Jesus himself or with the crucifixion and resurrection, more to do with Antiochus being responsible for ceasing Jewish temple rites and Maccabean Revolt to Antiochus death.

And the next verse (12:12) of 1335 days (another 3.66 year) is about the continuing success of the Maccabees’ rebellion against the next king Antiochus V. Again, nothing to do with Jesus.

What the book points to is that the authorship points to the reigns of Antiochus IV and Antiochus V, and not contemporary to Nebuchadnezzar, Belshazzar and Cyrus.

Your belief about Daniel book being the prophecies about Jesus and atonement of all mankind in 483 years, are simply bogus speculation and bogus prophecies.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Yes, as a Jew I knew the myth that Alexander made offerings in the Jerusalem Temple. Also while I was a child, I knew what myths are and how to parse myths from reality.

What does that have to do with converting from Judaism to Christianity?

I said nothing about your converting from Judaism to Christianity or why you did that.


But your own comments clearly show strong early religious indoctrination and explain your deeply ingrained religious beliefs. Switching from one religion to another is no big deal, especially since both use essentially the same story book.

And no, when it comes to Bible stories, you apparently cannot differentiate between myth and reality. Your comments on Daniel make that exceedingly clear. You dismiss all criticism of Daniel's tales.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
If you understand the history of Judaea during Antiochus IV’s reign in Syria, he was one responsible for the normal Jewish sacrifices and religious customs being stop at the Temple, being replaced with the worship of the Greek gods.

That was the desolations and abomination for 1290 days (approximately 3.53 years) Daniel 12:11 was talking about.

This verse (12:11) had nothing to with Jesus himself or with the crucifixion and resurrection, more to do with Antiochus being responsible for ceasing Jewish temple rites and Maccabean Revolt to Antiochus death.

And the next verse (12:12) of 1335 days (another 3.66 year) is about the continuing success of the Maccabees’ rebellion against the next king Antiochus V. Again, nothing to do with Jesus.

What the book points to is that the authorship points to the reigns of Antiochus IV and Antiochus V, and not contemporary to Nebuchadnezzar, Belshazzar and Cyrus.

Your belief about Daniel book being the prophecies about Jesus and atonement of all mankind in 483 years, are simply bogus speculation and bogus prophecies.

It's not a belief about "atonement of all mankind", it's a prophecy, "MAKE AN END OF SIN" is what the text says. Either the author wrote late about the Maccabees and felt he should like about atonement, or the book is what I think it is, a predictor of Jesus.

You are unfamiliar also with what is called "double prophecy fulfillment by scholars", in this case, 1290 days in the Maccabean Period AND in the times coming in Revelation--note the 1290-day prophecies of Revelation.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
I said nothing about your converting from Judaism to Christianity or why you did that.


But your own comments clearly show strong early religious indoctrination and explain your deeply ingrained religious beliefs. Switching from one religion to another is no big deal, especially since both use essentially the same story book.

And no, when it comes to Bible stories, you apparently cannot differentiate between myth and reality. Your comments on Daniel make that exceedingly clear. You dismiss all criticism of Daniel's tales.

I have no problem with criticizing Daniel or higher criticism of the text. I have a problem when people ignore (whether you date Daniel early or late) that Daniel says Messiah will die for sin 483 years after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem in 30 AD!
 

ecco

Veteran Member
I have a problem when people ignore (whether you date Daniel early or late) that Daniel says Messiah will die for sin 483 years after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem in 30 AD!

Can you show a quote from Daniel that unequivocally shows this prophecy?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
It's not a belief about "atonement of all mankind", it's a prophecy, "MAKE AN END OF SIN" is what the text says. Either the author wrote late about the Maccabees and felt he should like about atonement, or the book is what I think it is, a predictor of Jesus.

You are unfamiliar also with what is called "double prophecy fulfillment by scholars", in this case, 1290 days in the Maccabean Period AND in the times coming in Revelation--note the 1290-day prophecies of Revelation.
Revelation mentioned “1260 days”, twice (11:3 & 12:6), not “1290 days”.

The first verse (11:3) is about the 2 Witnesses prophecies for 1260 days. And the 2nd verse (12:6), the 1260 days related to the pregnant woman being given refuge or sanctuary for that period of time, fleeing from the dragon, which Michael will slay later.

Not the same thing with Daniel’s verse of 1290 days.

And you are still ignoring the fact that the Book of Daniel wasn’t written during the reign of Cyrus. There is no evidence to support the existence of Daniel in the 6th century BCE, let alone writing the book with his name on it.

Neither the 6th century Nabonidus Cylinders, nor Cyrus Cylinder mention anything about meeting a wise Jewish man named Daniel.
 
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SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
It's not a belief about "atonement of all mankind", it's a prophecy, "MAKE AN END OF SIN" is what the text says. Either the author wrote late about the Maccabees and felt he should like about atonement, or the book is what I think it is, a predictor of Jesus.

You are unfamiliar also with what is called "double prophecy fulfillment by scholars", in this case, 1290 days in the Maccabean Period AND in the times coming in Revelation--note the 1290-day prophecies of Revelation.
But there is still sin ... ?
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Can you show a quote from Daniel that unequivocally shows this prophecy?
Judging from past experience, he'll give you something with muddled wording that requires exponential amounts of mental gymnastics to make it sound anything close to a prediction.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Elephant has nose??? :eek:
4swdhd7b0m601.jpg

Tweak.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Few creationists are familiar with the biogeographic evidence for evolution, yet it is one of the strongest pieces of evidence for evolution.

Why do species on islands resemble species on the nearest mainland, even if there is a vast difference in environmental conditions between the island and the mainland? If a creator was independently creating species, why would he create species on islands that are similar to those on the nearest continent or mainland? The species found on islands such as the Galapagos, while distinct from the species of the nearest mainland, resemble them more closely than they resemble the species of other islands with more similar environmental conditions, indicating that the species on the islands descended and evolved from the species on the nearest mainland.

This is what Darwin had to say on the subject:

"The naturalist, looking at the inhabitants of these volcanic islands in the Pacific, distant several hundred miles from the continent,feels that he is standing on American land. Why should this be so? Why should the species which are supposed to have been created in the Galapagos Archipelago, and nowhere else, bear so plainly the stamp of affinity to those created in America?There is nothing in the conditions of life, in the geological nature of the islands, in their height or climate, or in the proportions in which the several classes are associated together, which closely resemble the conditions of the South American coast: in fact, there is a considerable dissimilarity in all these respects.... Facts such as these admit of no sort of explanation on the ordinary view of independent creation; whereas on the view here maintained, it is obvious that the Galapagos Islands would be likely to receive colonists from America, whether by occasional means of transport or (though I do not believe in this doctrine) by formerly continuous land ...such colonists would be liable to modification,—the principle of inheritance still betraying their original birthplace."

Creationists cannot explain away this evidence. They just pretend it doesn't exist.

If you ask an evolutionist, so you own a theme as a human and a group to give particular information to say, so natural form today is natural form today, do not change it, for in the past it was not the changed natural form, that you prove was changed.

The same statements but said differently to a spiritual Creationist.

Who says......once, eternal only existed.

Spirit sung to spirit as spirit language in eternal. No creation or space existed.

A spirit sung up O God to want to see a change....as spirit in eternal, higher than us, would prove its own conscious presence higher than our own inherited selves.

So forcing change....the eternal thinned where the bodies got sung up.

Before spirit went to spirit into the spirit.

O God went away from itself, spirit.

When the sound was stopped being sung, too late. It tried to roll back, eternal had thinned. Fell through burst and burnt....so eternal proves that a form of it remained in space....got burnt/changed I interacting with O God burning bodies. Water...from eternal higher than gases/spirit/stone and radiation.....how we get informed in creation.

Said so half of the eternal was burnt out and gone...half cooled/evolved became a gas filled back in half of missing eternal. Cause and effect...…...eternal got changed again.

Spirits formed on their side. Same spirit body, as per every body in creation proves, eternal...but self presence, diversity was self owned. Nature came out first, and then history.

Male says land breaks off continent, says when I do science, I reacted extra radiation to attack tectonic plates...I built it he says...male mentality. So I am alive telling all the stories.

Plates break off.....the land shifts away....new animal life, very diverse or similar.

What about the return of dinosaurs? You know evil island flesh eating monsters.
Galapagos Reptiles - Tortoises, Lizards, Turtles & Marine Iguanas

So when a male says EXTRA UFO radiation caused it.....diverse de evolution of life, mutated, then they did.

And a male said I owned the invention/cause of it, knowingly.

Proving radiation extra UFO did not create life, which is what evolutionists claim...a UFO created a microbe that developed.

If it were real then life cell would not change in RADIATION presence.
 
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