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To what extent did Jesus promote supersessionism?

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
The idea that Christianity supersedes Judaism is found most clearly in Paul's letters and the gospel of John and Acts. It's not noticeable in the synoptics (Mark, Matthew, Luke) and indeed in Matthew 5 it's flatly contradicted:

Certainly, Christianity started out as a Second Temple Judaic sect.

But it was a very peculiar one in its cultural context.

To be a bit more specific, scholars typically accept that Jesus did abrogate a limited number of mitzvot of the Torah by his own authority: namely the laws on oaths, the Sabbath (he declared himself 'lord of the Sabbath' in the Gospel of Mark and said that the "sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath"), the Mosaic law on divorce and the "lex talionis" (the Torah, in an attempt to limit vengeance, prescribes proportionate "eye for eye, tooth for tooth" punishment in retaliation for a crime, whereas Jesus overrules it with 'turn the other cheek' and not responding with any legal redress, even proportionately).

But he didn't abrogate the entirety or even arguably the substantials as St. Paul, in principle, later allowed for (i.e. making it effectively a matter of 'conscience' whether one adopts it or not, outwith the moral, and certainly not binding on Gentiles), even though his 'example' set a precedent. The saying you cite (as does @adrian009) establishes Jesus's high praise for the "law", even as he exercised a very uncommonly liberal approach to halakhah that I imagine many of our Jewish friends would find very unorthodox. Interestingly, with regards the historical Jesus, your above quotation is commonly regarded as a Matthean re-working of the underlying Q source he shared with Luke, and scholars believe that Luke's "unified and briefer version is more primitive than Matthew's...Luke's version is not a redactional combination".

The Matthean version has an explication ("until all is fulfilled") that is uniquely Matthean in syntax.

Matthew's gospel was, apologetically, concerned with trying to prove Jesus fulfilled Hebrew scripture and is overwhelmingly regarded as addressed to a still Torah-observant community.

The Lukean version is much less honorific of the law: it begins with a clear statement to the effect that the Torah and Neviim were "in force" until John the Baptist comes but since his ministry the 'kingdom of God' has taken their place. We then have a much shorter, single sentence qualifying this radical abrogation about it being easier for heaven and earth to vanish than a letter of the law "failing".

Matthew, for his own homiletic reasons, appears to have greatly expanded this simple saying into an elaborate defence of the law.

If I may quote the historical Jesus scholar Dale Allison in his The Earliest Christian Tradition and Its Interpreters:


"Another line from Q that raises questions about Jesus's faithfulness to the law is Q 16:16...Within Matthew's Gospel, with its unambiguous endorsement of the Torah in 5:17-20, this saying is difficult to interpret...The rhetoric is provocative - deliberately so, one suspects - and interpreters from early times have seen in Matt 11:13 and its Lukan parallel an implicit criticism of the law...Q.16:16 does assume a displacement. The Law and the Prophets are no longer the center of religious attention; something else - the kingdom - now is the center. The radical Jesus appears not only in Mark and Q....One feels the law's inadequacy even in Matthew's Gospel...When Jesus formulates his imperatives as contrasts with Moses, he is clearly signaling that Moses does not suffice....

[The conclusion] Jesus did not compose Matthew 5:17 with its ringing endorsement of the Law and the Prophets.
" (p.176)

What Jesus did do, however, was leave an 'explosive' saying attested independently by Mark, Luke and Paul in his letter to the Romans, which Paul readily cited and used to effectively render the entirety of the cultic laws of the Torah a matter of conscientious determination decades after Jesus's death (even though Jesus certainly didn't do this himself).

In Mark 7:14, 18-23 Jesus says, “There is nothing outside a person that by going in can defile, but the things that come out are what defile...Nothing that enters a man from the outside can defile him, because it does not enter his heart, but it goes into the stomach and then is eliminated.” (Thus he declared all foods clean)...What comes out of a man, that is what defiles him.For from within the hearts of men come evil thoughts...All these evils come from within, and these are what defile a man".

That last line in parenthesis, "thus all foods are clean" is a Markan interpretative remark that Jesus's command here effectively abolished the theoretical basis of kosher, even though Jesus doesn't say it explicitly himself and the church after his death had a serious battle of ideas over this, as signified by the Council of Jerusalem in Acts.

Luke's gospel and St. Paul (decades before Mark) attested to different, independent variations of this same teaching (making it one of the most authoritative and ancient Jesus sayings by multiple attestation):


"Now you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness. You fools! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also? Instead, give for alms those things that are within; and see! everything will be clean for you" (Luke 14:39-41)

I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean" (Romans 14:14)

So it would be erroneous to imagine that St. Paul pioneered this approach as a complete "novelty" without precedent in the Jesus oral tradition. Rather, he had Jesus tradition available that he could cite and which those with whom he debated also regarded as 'true', to buttress his interpretation even though it was far more radical than Jesus himself.

The relationship between Jesus and the Torah, in his lifetime, is thus far more complicated than your post would suggest.

It also needs to be noted - as attested also by Paul in his letter to the Corinthians, as well as in the synoptic gospels - that Jesus only announced a "new covenant" on the night he was betrayed to death, during the Last Supper with the institution of the Eucharistic ritual. St. Paul's version of this Jesus tradition and words of institution:


"For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took a loaf of bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, ‘This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.’ In the same way he took the cup also, after supper, saying, ‘This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.’ For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes." (1 Corinthians 14:24-26)


Luke's later version of this story:


"After taking the cup, He gave thanks and said, “Take this and divide it among yourselves. For I tell you that I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes.”And He took the bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body, given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” In the same way, after supper He took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is poured out for you." (Luke 22:17-20)

Thus, the most significant act of "old covenant" revocation - the declaration of a new one, centred around a new religious rite/ritual that has no precedent in the Torah - only happens the night before Jesus dies! So its understandable why the early church, before St. Paul reconciled all the inconsistencies into a concrete stance in the 50s CE, were unsure of what their relationship with the Torah exactly was for about decade or so after Jesus's death. The destruction of the Second Temple in 70 A.D. merely capped a process of separation into an entirely new religion that had long been in the offing, theologically.

In principle, when Jesus makes the statement you quote above from Matthew - at least according to Matthew - he is speaking before the announcement of a "new covenant". This makes his limited but significant number of Torah violations even more significant, because he was literally portraying himself as "above" the law when he acted in this way.

Then we have the most significant Jesus saying from the synoptic tradition on the "old" versus "new" teachings:


New Wine into Old Wineskins - Wikipedia


No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old. And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.

— Luke 5:36-39, KJV

This parable about new wine needing "new wine-skins" (because the new wine would burst the old skins, unless they are replaced) is recognised by most scholars as Jesus proclaiming that the "kingdom of God" he preached represented a new 'stage' (of some kind) that surpassed that of Moses and his covenant. On the night before his death, as first attested by Paul in his letter to the Corinthians before the accounts in the synoptic gospels, Jesus shared a final meal with his disciples at which he lifted up a cup of wine and declared that there was now a "new covenant".

In other words, acting out this earlier parable and making a ritual involving wine the new central 'rite' of his sect. And these were by far the most 'offensive' words Jesus could have used under the Old Covenant, in which 'blood' was absolutely forbidden to be consumed:


Leviticus 17:10

If anyone from the house of Israel or a foreigner living among them eats any blood, I will set My face against that person and cut him off from among his people.

As one Jewish scholar notes:


"If anyone eats blood, that person must be cut off from his peers.” The ban on eating blood is fundamental to the Torah. The ban occupies a central place in the covenant."

On the same night where he declares the Torah an 'old covenant' and announces a 'new covenant', Jesus refers to the wine in the cup as his "blood", as if to ram the point home (symbolically?) that the Old Covenant really is surpassed by a New one for his band of disciples.

There are other examples:


Luke 16:16-18. The law and the prophets were in force until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached

Jesus's relationship with the law is therefore complex beyond complex. I'm forever thankful that St. Paul simplified everything into a coherent theological framework!
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
The Jews are Gods chosen. That is eternal and cannot change.

The Jews are God’s chosen people. God chose the Jewish people to mediate various Covenants (through Noah, Abraham, Moses and David) and to Reveal Himself through Adam to Christ. So in that sense God chose the Jewish people. In what other ways are the Jewish peoples chosen in your view?

The Jews as well, have rejected the Messiah, and are outside the path God has designated for mankind.

What if God’s plan was that His Chosen people would reject Him? Wouldn’t that place the Jewish people’s within God’s plan?

They abandoned God, He did not abandon them. Throughout their history this has been a pattern.

To assume the Jews have abandoned God and the Christians haven’t appears highly problematic and prejudicial to me.

This will change, and once again they will return and assume their rightful place as desired by God.

The Jewish people seem unlikely to become Christians en masse anytime soon and I’m not to certain if there would be much benefit for either party after two thousand years.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
I see problems with supersessionism. I'm trying to better understand the concept not just in regards Christianity but Islam and the Baha'i Faith too. It would be interesting to hear to what extent the Founders of these religions taught supersessionism. However, a consideration of Christianity in relation to Judaism is a logical starting place.
Islam doesn't endorse supersessionism, since it endorses the Torah.
Jeremiah's new covenant (Jer 31:31-33) doesn't endorse supersessionism either, since the new covenant is with the same people as the old covenant.
According to Daniel the Messiah confirmed the covenant.
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
Then why did god go through with it? If youknow it will fail amd do it anyways, thats not being godly it's being an idiot. Amd it seems to go against stories such as the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, where god assured Lot there were no righteous people in it, butdouble checked anyways to put Lots concerns at ease. This "know it will fail" makes your god look weak, dumb, and terribly inefficient.

Sounds like another problem with god, setting the bar so high he knows it can't be cleared. Is he also a sadist they way he seemingly wants to see people fail impossible tasks? Making life a Kobayashi Maru scenario is viciously and savagely cruel.

Not everyone wants to, not everyone thinks your god deserving of worship or being called god.

That is your belief. I say we are humans. Quirky, emotional, irrational, it is our condition. This does not make everything we do count as filthy rags. I don't hate humanity quite enough to condemn and denoujce with such broad strokes of contempt and disregard. I don't loathe our kind so much I would resort to such put downs, insults, and negativity.

Why should anyone serve your god who makes impossible tasks and denounces everyone as a filthy rag?

I always have a hard time understanding why Christians consistently praise god as almighty and good yet continue with examples of him either being more limited than they praise or cruel.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Till then, I say, the Jews have their path and we have our path and I, for one, will be pleased no end if and when I make it to the top. One thing I firmly believe is certain: There are going be a lot of folks who are surprised to see each other at the top.

Who knows what despicable people we’ll find at the top of the mountain. Could be a few Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus there, maybe even a Baha’i or two.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
The Jews are God’s chosen people. God chose the Jewish people to mediate various Covenants (through Noah, Abraham, Moses and David) and to Reveal Himself through Adam to Christ. So in that sense God chose the Jewish people. In what other ways are the Jewish peoples chosen in your view?



What if God’s plan was that His Chosen people would reject Him? Wouldn’t that place the Jewish people’s within God’s plan?



To assume the Jews have abandoned God and the Christians haven’t appears highly problematic and prejudicial to me.



The Jewish people seem unlikely to become Christians en masse anytime soon and I’m not to certain if there would be much benefit for either party after two thousand years.
Revelation makes it clear that in the End Jews will be powerful evangelists for Christ. This is the primary role for which they were chosen, to share God with the rest of humanity.

I can't imagine that God would promise a Messiah, then plan for His people to reject Him.

The Jews theologically abandoned God when they rejected the Messiah. If they had not there would never have been the diaspora and all that followed.

If they had accepted Christ, Gods kingdom would have physically existed on earth at that time.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
The fact is that Satan is real
Its not a fact. It is your belief. For it to be fact you have to definitively and objectively demonstrate his existence. You cannot do this.
It's to show how even in our best state we aren't perfect.
That does not mean, however, our deed are "filthy days." Many people are simply too confident and have too healthy of a sense of self esteem to lower themselves to such nonsense.
Failure is assured
Then the standards are too high and god is sadistic for making a system that is designed intentionally to be impossible to pass.
So the answer is God knew the nation as a whole would corrupt themselves and break the covenant
This would be known as a crap corporate culture of this were a modern cooperation you were discussing. If you make policy that you know can't be fully adhered to, simply put that isnt good for people.
No one can truly live up to the Law of Moses.
Then god is cruel and unreasonable.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
The Jews theologically abandoned God when they rejected the Messiah.
It cpuld be said with your views on immigration has you theologically departing from Christ, who said what you do unto the least among you so also you have done into him.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
anyone following jacob's actions would pretty much qualify for jacob's namesake. that's how he got his name, by action, and not by inheritance.
In that sense his name was Israel, not Jacob. Jacob can mean supplanter.

Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us;
Hosea 12:4
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
Who knows what despicable people we’ll find at the top of the mountain.
Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 105a:1:

  • "...the ministering angels said before the Holy One, Blessed be He: Master of the Universe, if David, who killed the Philistine and bequeathed the city of Gath to your sons, will come and complain that You gave a share in the World-to-Come to his enemies Doeg and Ahithophel, what will You do concerning him? Will you accept his complaint? God said to the ministering angels: It is upon me to render David and his enemies friends [re’im] with each other, and even David will agree."
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Maybe. But what size is it? I am curious to know. You are the statistics man and im sure you will have the numbers up your sleeve somewhere.

How about at least 1.8 million people in 50 countries.....

Reform Judaism (also known as Liberal Judaism or Progressive Judaism) is a major Jewish denomination that emphasizes the evolving nature of the faith, the superiority of its ethical aspects to the ceremonial ones, and belief in a continuous revelation, closely intertwined with human reason and intellect, and not centered on the theophany at Mount Sinai. A liberal strand of Judaism, it is characterized by a lessened stress on ritual and personal observance, regarding Jewish Law as non-binding and the individual Jew as autonomous, and great openness to external influences and progressive values. The origins of Reform Judaism lie in 19th-century Germany, where its early principles were formulated by Rabbi Abraham Geiger and his associates. Since the 1970s, the movement has adopted a policy of inclusiveness and acceptance, inviting as many as possible to partake in its communities, rather than strict theoretical clarity. It is strongly identified with progressive political and social agendas, mainly under the traditional Jewish rubric Tikkun Olam, or "Repairing of the World". Tikkun Olam is a central motto of Reform Judaism, and action for its sake is one of the main channels for adherents to express their affiliation. The movement's greatest center today is in North America.

The various regional branches sharing these beliefs, including the American Union for Reform Judaism (URJ), the Movement for Reform Judaism (MRJ) and Liberal Judaism in Britain, and the Israel Movement for Reform and Progressive Judaism, are all united within the international World Union for Progressive Judaism. Founded in 1926, the WUPJ estimates it represents at least 1.8 million people in 50 countries: close to a million registered adult congregants, as well as almost as many unaffiliated individuals who identify with the denomination. This makes it the second-largest Jewish denomination worldwide.


Reform Judaism - Wikipedia
 

Riders

Well-Known Member
I appreciate the smart lively discussion about the Christian faith. I am reading some of this.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
The Jews are Gods chosen. That is eternal and cannot change.

The Jews as well, have rejected the Messiah, and are outside the path God has designated for mankind.

They abandoned God, He did not abandon them. Throughout their history this has been a pattern.

This will change, and once again they will return and assume their rightful place as desired by God.


God promised to bless ALL FAMILIES OF THE EARTH in Abraham's seed, aka Jesus.
This includes both believing Jews and believing Gentiles. Replaced? No. The chosen were always 'the believing Jews' who rightly leaned on God for mercy by faith and now includes believing gentiles
 

InChrist

Free4ever
What is Supersessionism? According to wikipedia;

Supersessionism, also called replacement theology, is a Christian doctrine which asserts that the New Covenant through Jesus Christ supersedes the Old Covenant, which was made exclusively with the Jewish people.

In Christianity, supersessionism is a theological view on the current status of the church in relation to the Jewish people and Judaism. It holds that the Christian Church has succeeded the Israelites as the definitive people of God or that the New Covenant has replaced or superseded the Mosaic covenant. From a supersessionist's "point of view, just by continuing to exist [outside the Church], the Jews dissent". This view directly contrasts with dual-covenant theology which holds that the Mosaic covenant remains valid for Jews.

Supersessionism has formed a core tenet of the Christian Churches for the majority of their existence. Christian traditions that have traditionally championed dual-covenant theology (including the Roman Catholic, Reformed and Methodist teachings of this doctrine), have taught that the moral law continues to stand.

Supersessionism - Wikipedia

I see problems with supersessionism. I'm trying to better understand the concept not just in regards Christianity but Islam and the Baha'i Faith too. It would be interesting to hear to what extent the Founders of these religions taught supersessionism. However, a consideration of Christianity in relation to Judaism is a logical starting place.
I have see big problems with supersessionism/ replacement theology, the biggest one being that it is completely contrary to the scriptures and the idea is only arrived at by wrongly dividing the word of God. When read in context and in light of the whole of scripture it is clear to see that both the Old Covenant and the New Covenant are for Israel. The church just happens to be grafted in for a time to enjoy the spiritual blessing, but in no way replaces God’s purpose, nor nullifies the promises for Israel.
 

leov

Well-Known Member
What is Supersessionism? According to wikipedia;

Supersessionism, also called replacement theology, is a Christian doctrine which asserts that the New Covenant through Jesus Christ supersedes the Old Covenant, which was made exclusively with the Jewish people.

In Christianity, supersessionism is a theological view on the current status of the church in relation to the Jewish people and Judaism. It holds that the Christian Church has succeeded the Israelites as the definitive people of God or that the New Covenant has replaced or superseded the Mosaic covenant. From a supersessionist's "point of view, just by continuing to exist [outside the Church], the Jews dissent". This view directly contrasts with dual-covenant theology which holds that the Mosaic covenant remains valid for Jews.

Supersessionism has formed a core tenet of the Christian Churches for the majority of their existence. Christian traditions that have traditionally championed dual-covenant theology (including the Roman Catholic, Reformed and Methodist teachings of this doctrine), have taught that the moral law continues to stand.

Supersessionism - Wikipedia

I see problems with supersessionism. I'm trying to better understand the concept not just in regards Christianity but Islam and the Baha'i Faith too. It would be interesting to hear to what extent the Founders of these religions taught supersessionism. However, a consideration of Christianity in relation to Judaism is a logical starting place.
Very complicated subject, I think. Modern Christianity in a way is a caricature of what it was.
"52Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter yourselves, and you hindered those who were entering.” Here Gospel complains what was wrong with official Judaism: the suppressed Gnostic approach (key of knowledge). The same happened with Christianity a few hundred years later. The problem is right here, Paul identified it as division of Soul and Spirit. The same division is in any religion, in some more than other.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I see problems with supersessionism. I'm trying to better understand the concept not just in regards Christianity but Islam and the Baha'i Faith too. It would be interesting to hear to what extent the Founders of these religions taught supersessionism. However, a consideration of Christianity in relation to Judaism is a logical starting place.
Start with Zoroaster. He is one of your manifestations and one of the earliest who touted 'One Allah'.

It is a must with Abrahamic religions.
If one does not claim to supersede the earlier, then one cannot claim his exclusivity. All Abrhamics did it, Jesus, Mohammad, Joseph Smith, Bahaollah, Mirza Gholam Ahmad, even if we forget those who were not very successful with it. And you need to come up with a new relationship with Allah. Jesus said he is the son, Mohammad said that he is the last messenger, Joseph Smith said that he is a 'Later Day Saint', Bahaollah said he is a manfestation and Mirza said he is the Mahdi. The one who comes now will have to coin a new relationship with Allah.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Start with Zoroaster. He is one of your manifestations and one of the earliest who touted 'One Allah'.

It is a must with Abrahamic religions.
If one does not claim to supersede the earlier, then one cannot claim his exclusivity. All Abrhamics did it, Jesus, Mohammad, Joseph Smith, Bahaollah, Mirza Gholam Ahmad, even if we forget those who were not very successful with it. And you need to come up with a new relationship with Allah. Jesus said he is the son, Mohammad said that he is the last messenger, Joseph Smith said that he is a 'Later Day Saint', Bahaollah said he is a manfestation and Mirza said he is the Mahdi. The one who comes now will have to coin a new relationship with Allah.

So are you asking me a question about the Baha’i Faith or making a statement about the Baha’i Faith? It sounds as if you are making a statement about how Baha’is view religions. The problem is your statement is inaccurate and doesn’t reflect my faith. Its like if I started spouting nonsense about Hinduism and trying to sound like an expert at the same time. You would be better to ask questions instead of making statements that reflect who your lack of knowledge.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 105a:1:
  • "...the ministering angels said before the Holy One, Blessed be He: Master of the Universe, if David, who killed the Philistine and bequeathed the city of Gath to your sons, will come and complain that You gave a share in the World-to-Come to his enemies Doeg and Ahithophel, what will You do concerning him? Will you accept his complaint? God said to the ministering angels: It is upon me to render David and his enemies friends [re’im] with each other, and even David will agree."

That’s one cryptic answer!
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Furthermore, when more than one person claims to be Mahdi, the question arises as to who is the true Mahdi. Bahais will say that Bab was the true Mahdi, Ahmadiyyas will say that Mirza was the true Mahdi. There have been many more than just these two Mahdi claims. So, it depends on what a person would agree to. There cannot be any more messenger because Mohammad said he was the last.

But there can be a second son of God. If the Ghost/Spirit breathed into Mary, can it not do it again? Nothing, that I know, bars God to have a second son, and the mother need not always be a virgin. That way we are limiting what the Ghost/Spirit can do. Sure, in his time, Jesus was the only anointed son of God. Shiva has two, Rama had two. Of course, Krishna had many (as the books say).

Adrian, I am neither making a statement on Bahais nor asking them any question. I am talking about supersession in Abrahamic 'One God' religions.
The topic is in religious debates. Why should I only ask questions? I think I am not doing anything wrong by expressing my opinion.
 
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