To what extent did Jesus promote supersessionism?

Dawnofhope · Mar 2, 2020

What is Supersessionism? According to wikipedia;

Supersessionism, also called replacement theology, is a Christian doctrine which asserts that the New Covenant through Jesus Christ supersedes the Old Covenant, which was made exclusively with the Jewish people.

In Christianity, supersessionism is a theological view on the current status of the church in relation to the Jewish people and Judaism. It holds that the Christian Church has succeeded the Israelites as the definitive people of God or that the New Covenant has replaced or superseded the Mosaic covenant. From a supersessionist's "point of view, just by continuing to exist [outside the Church], the Jews dissent". This view directly contrasts with dual-covenant theology which holds that the Mosaic covenant remains valid for Jews.

Supersessionism has formed a core tenet of the Christian Churches for the majority of their existence. Christian traditions that have traditionally championed dual-covenant theology (including the Roman Catholic, Reformed and Methodist teachings of this doctrine), have taught that the moral law continues to stand.

Supersessionism - Wikipedia

I see problems with supersessionism. I'm trying to better understand the concept not just in regards Christianity but Islam and the Baha'i Faith too. It would be interesting to hear to what extent the Founders of these religions taught supersessionism. However, a consideration of Christianity in relation to Judaism is a logical starting place.

74x12 · Mar 2, 2020

adrian009 said:
What is Supersessionism? According to wikipedia;

Supersessionism, also called replacement theology, is a Christian doctrine which asserts that the New Covenant through Jesus Christ supersedes the Old Covenant, which was made exclusively with the Jewish people.

In Christianity, supersessionism is a theological view on the current status of the church in relation to the Jewish people and Judaism. It holds that the Christian Church has succeeded the Israelites as the definitive people of God or that the New Covenant has replaced or superseded the Mosaic covenant. From a supersessionist's "point of view, just by continuing to exist [outside the Church], the Jews dissent". This view directly contrasts with dual-covenant theology which holds that the Mosaic covenant remains valid for Jews.

Supersessionism has formed a core tenet of the Christian Churches for the majority of their existence. Christian traditions that have traditionally championed dual-covenant theology (including the Roman Catholic, Reformed and Methodist teachings of this doctrine), have taught that the moral law continues to stand.

Supersessionism - Wikipedia

I see problems with supersessionism. I'm trying to better understand the concept not just in regards Christianity but Islam and the Baha'i Faith too. It would be interesting to hear to what extent the Founders of these religions taught supersessionism. However, a consideration of Christianity in relation to Judaism is a logical starting place.

He told a prominent Pharisee Nicodemus that he(Nicodemus) had to be born again. (John 3:3-5) That means to be Jewish was not enough anymore. Because Nicodemus was born a Jew. If you really wanted to be the children of God; you had to be born again whether Jew or gentile. It's because "they that are in the flesh cannot please God" and Jesus is the "resurrection and the life". So when you are not resurrected you can't please God.

Old Covenant - made for those in the flesh, earthly nation
New Covenant - made for those in resurrection

So the new Covenant exceeds the old as far as heaven from earth.

However, the Jews received the gospel first; then the gentiles. So they had that advantage.

Shadow Wolf · Mar 2, 2020

74x12 said:
So the new Covenant exceeds the old as far as heaven from earth.

Are we sure? Does this not lead to being called the least in the Kingdom?(Matthew 5:17-19)

Dawnofhope · Mar 2, 2020

74x12 said:
He told a prominent Pharisee Nicodemus that he(Nicodemus) had to be born again. (John 3:3-5) That means to be Jewish was not enough anymore. Because Nicodemus was born a Jew. If you really wanted to be the children of God; you had to be born again whether Jew or gentile. It's because "they that are in the flesh cannot please God" and Jesus is the "resurrection and the life". So when you are not resurrected you can't please God.

Old Covenant - made for those in the flesh, earthly nation
New Covenant - made for those in resurrection

So the new Covenant exceeds the old as far as heaven from earth.

However, the Jews received the gospel first; then the gentiles. So they had that advantage.

It is undeniable Christianity is a religion that has been able to accommodate most peoples regardless of their
ethnicity or country of birth. Judaism doesn't have the same capacity to embrace diversity. So presuming the God of Abraham wanted to make Himself more widely known, the Teachings of Jesus appear to have met that goal. So there was a clear need for religious renewal along those lines and John 3:3-5 speaks of religious renewal. However, why would Christ's Teachings negate Judaism in any way?

Jesus taught

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:17-19

74x12 · Mar 2, 2020

Shadow Wolf said:
Are we sure? Does this not lead to being called the least in the Kingdom?(Matthew 5:17-19)

I meant that literally. Because one Covenant was made for earth and the other is to be literally "born from above" that is to mean born from heaven.

Shadow Wolf · Mar 2, 2020

74x12 said:
I meant that literally. Because one Covenant was made for earth and the other is to be literally "born from above" that is to mean born from heaven.

That's not really a thing.

74x12 · Mar 2, 2020

adrian009 said:
It is undeniable Christianity is a religion that has been able to accommodate most peoples regardless of their
ethnicity or country of birth. Judaism doesn't have the same capacity to embrace diversity. So presuming the God of Abraham wanted to make Himself more widely known, the Teachings of Jesus appear to have met that goal. So there was a clear need for religious renewal along those lines and John 3:3-5 speaks of religious renewal. However, why would Christ's Teachings negate Judaism in any way?

Jesus taught

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:17-19

If you're dead to the world; then you're dead also to the Law. The new Covenant is a new deal from God basically. It's new life from the grave.

There is a new Israel starting with Jesus. Jesus is "firstborn from the dead" and whoever is resurrected will be members of His body. So they won't be from old Jacob. Even Jacob himself will be resurrected as part of Jesus body. Jesus will be the head. And you know when a baby is born the head comes first. And so it is spiritually also. And they say it's crowning when the baby comes out. So the head wears the crown.

Jesus is the Chief Cornerstone of not just the true temple of God. But of a whole new creation. That is a new heaven and a new earth. So all those built on the Rock will last longer than heaven and earth. This is why Jesus taught to dig down past the sand and build your house on the rock. If your foundation is eternal then your house may last forever.

As He said "heaven and earth shall pass away, but my Word shall not pass away"

wizanda · Mar 2, 2020

adrian009 said:
This view directly contrasts with dual-covenant theology which holds that the Mosaic covenant remains valid for Jews.

The Mosaic covenant was nullified in Zechariah 11:13-14, when they paid 30 pieces of silver for the Messiah, and the Abrahamic covenant was nullified in Zechariah 11:10, because they did not like their Lord.

Yeshua did not teach Gentiles are grafted in, he taught they shall trample down (Luke 21:24), and tear away following their idol 'j+sēs' (Luke 12:33-34, Isaiah 51:8).

adrian009 said:
Supersessionism, also called replacement theology, is a Christian doctrine which asserts that the New Covenant through Jesus Christ supersedes the Old Covenant, which was made exclusively with the Jewish people.

The Pharisaic Christian teachers (John, Paul, and Simon the stone) taught replacement theology, to cover up that the covenants were nullified.

Yeshua's last supper covenant is about Ezekiel 4-5, where because they've exchanged an animal sacrifice for a man, God will replace their bread with poo cakes, and drink with urine (communion), where they shall then be exiled in the Diaspora for committing such crimes.

adrian009 said:
It would be interesting to hear to what extent the Founders of these religions taught supersessionism.

In the Parable of the Wicked Husbandmen (Matthew 21:33-46, Mark 12:1-12, and Luke 20:9-19), it explains that at Judgement Day the Source of reality is to remove those who accept they get atonement or inheritance from Yeshua's death, as it is evil...

Then after this the Source of reality will give this world to a people worthy to inherit it; which are those who accept the teachings of Yeshua, and don't defile the Law in the process.

adrian009 said:
I'm trying to better understand the concept not just in regards Christianity but Islam and the Baha'i Faith too.

Christianity is a deliberate morality IQ test to remove the hypocrites, who claim an inheritance that is not their own (Zechariah 5).

The Quran tried to rectify the situation by pointing people back to following the Messiah (Quran 3:55), yet rejecting the false texts; due to corruption it became like Christianity, of if we follow Muhammad we are saved, which is Muhammadanism, not Islam.

Baha'i teachings make a mess of all the religions, and have a similar cult mentality like the rest; where if they follow the leader they believe they are saved, whereas none are saved other than by being included in the Lamb's Book of Life (Revelation 21:27).

Basically only those who actually get the Testimony of Yeshua correctly (Isaiah 8:11-22), will be here after the Holy Fire removes all the workers of iniquity in a day (Zechariah 8:6-8, Revelation 15:2-3).

In my opinion.

74x12 · Mar 2, 2020

Shadow Wolf said:
That's not really a thing.

What isn't a thing?

Dawnofhope · Mar 2, 2020

74x12 said:
If you're dead to the world; then you're dead also to the Law. The new Covenant is a new deal from God basically. It's new life from the grave.

There is a new Israel starting with Jesus. Jesus is "firstborn from the dead" and whoever is resurrected will be members of His body. So they won't be from old Jacob. Even Jacob himself will be resurrected as part of Jesus body. Jesus will be the head. And you know when a baby is born the head comes first. And so it is spiritually also. And they say it's crowning when the baby comes out. So the head wears the crown.

Jesus is the Chief Cornerstone of not just the true temple of God. But of a whole new creation. That is a new heaven and a new earth. So all those built on the Rock will last longer than heaven and earth. This is why Jesus taught to dig down past the sand and build your house on the rock. If your foundation is eternal then your house may last forever.

As He said "heaven and earth shall pass away, but my Word shall not pass away"

I agree Jesus brought a new Covenant (Luke 22:20). I do not agree He brought a lawless religion. However the time had come when at least part of he Mosaic law was no longer applicable. Jesus and His Apostles helped us to understand that. However many Jews would consider that Mosaic law in its entirety is no longer applicable for this day. The Teachings of Jesus would have helped the Jews who followed Jesus to come to that realisation. However not all law was redundant. There are clearly laws that are applicable to any age or dispensation. For example when Jesus was asked about the most important law He basically quoted from Deuteronomy 6:4-6. It would see reasonable clear to most fair minded people the wisdom of respecting parents, not killing, stealing or cheating.

If Christians belief they are free to disrespect their parents, to lie and cheat, because Christ brought a new Covenant, they are fully deserving of the repercussions of the law of the land they choose to break. If someone recognises Mosaic law as being from God and applies that to their life with wisdom, it certainly has greater benefit for the individual and the community, than one who considers himself above the law.

Shadow Wolf · Mar 2, 2020

[QUOTE="74x12, post: 6557635, member:]What isn't a thing?[/QUOTE]
This Covenant for the earth and one from above. Literally, this "Covenant of the Earth" are the Covenants between Yahwey and his Prophets and People.

74x12 · Mar 2, 2020

adrian009 said:
I agree Jesus brought a new Covenant (Luke 22:20). I do not agree He brought a lawless religion. However the time had come when at least part of he Mosaic law was no longer applicable. Jesus and His Apostles helped us to understand that. However many Jews would consider that Mosaic law in its entirety is no longer applicable for this day. The Teachings of Jesus would have helped the Jews who followed Jesus to come to that realisation. However not all law was redundant. There are clearly laws that are applicable to any age or dispensation. For example when Jesus was asked about the most important law He basically quoted from Deuteronomy 6:4-6. It would see reasonable clear to most fair minded people the wisdom of respecting parents, not killing, stealing or cheating.

If Christians belief they are free to disrespect their parents, to lie and cheat, because Christ brought a new Covenant, they are fully deserving of the repercussions of the law of the land they choose to break. If someone recognises Mosaic law as being from God and applies that to their life with wisdom, it certainly has greater benefit for the individual and the community, than one who considers himself above the law.

God said "for a law shall proceed from me"

The Law is the River of Life that proceeds from the throne of God in the midst of the city. And so it waters the trees that bear the fruit of Life which may feed the nations and save our soul also. So long as we drink from that River; then we will do well.

John 7:38
He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

74x12 · Mar 2, 2020

Shadow Wolf said:
This Covenant for the earth and one from above. Literally, this "Covenant of the Earth" are the Covenants between Yahwey and his Prophets and People.

A covenant which would have been perfect if it was able to be obeyed but it was made for an earthly nation that did not have the ability to obey it ...

Look what it says about them:

Deuteronomy 32:1-5
32 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:
3 Because I will publish the name of the Lord: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
5 They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.

So as you can see; even though God made a Covenant with them; yet He knew all along they would break it and that they would corrupt their way. So that is why God says "they that are in the flesh cannot please God".

The earthly nation couldn't ever really please God even though they wanted to at times. And even though they sacrificed thousands of sheep and cows; these did not really please God. And by the way; they are not different than any other nation on earth. We are all the same and we cannot submit to the Law of God. All our righteousness is counted as filthy rags.

But God promised a new Covenant; which had power and was able to make people better from within the heart. So they could serve God and they would be okay because God would forgive all their sins.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Invisibilis · Mar 2, 2020

The old way became homeless with God outside.
The new way becomes homely with God inside.

Fool · Mar 2, 2020

adrian009 said:
What is Supersessionism? According to wikipedia;

Supersessionism, also called replacement theology, is a Christian doctrine which asserts that the New Covenant through Jesus Christ supersedes the Old Covenant, which was made exclusively with the Jewish people.

In Christianity, supersessionism is a theological view on the current status of the church in relation to the Jewish people and Judaism. It holds that the Christian Church has succeeded the Israelites as the definitive people of God or that the New Covenant has replaced or superseded the Mosaic covenant. From a supersessionist's "point of view, just by continuing to exist [outside the Church], the Jews dissent". This view directly contrasts with dual-covenant theology which holds that the Mosaic covenant remains valid for Jews.

Supersessionism has formed a core tenet of the Christian Churches for the majority of their existence. Christian traditions that have traditionally championed dual-covenant theology (including the Roman Catholic, Reformed and Methodist teachings of this doctrine), have taught that the moral law continues to stand.

Supersessionism - Wikipedia

I see problems with supersessionism. I'm trying to better understand the concept not just in regards Christianity but Islam and the Baha'i Faith too. It would be interesting to hear to what extent the Founders of these religions taught supersessionism. However, a consideration of Christianity in relation to Judaism is a logical starting place.

returning lost sheep isn't usually about a new doctrine. it's about fashion. what's old is new again. as it says in ecclesiastes, there is nothing new under the sun. what works never goes out of style. might get rebranded but ideas aren't exclusive to people.

fyi, the israelites are threatened in the torah with being destroyed and replaced even under moses. deuteronomy 9:13-14

anyone following jacob's actions would pretty much qualify for jacob's namesake. that's how he got his name, by action, and not by inheritance.

RabbiO · Mar 2, 2020

adrian009 said:
It is undeniable Christianity is a religion that has been able to accommodate most peoples regardless of their
ethnicity or country of birth. Judaism doesn't have the same capacity to embrace diversity.....

Obviously there is some nuance, some shade of meaning, that is eluding me. So, for all us older folks feeling a little dense, please explain what you in the remark above.

Terry Sampson · Mar 2, 2020

74x12 said:
So as you can see;

So, as you have made quite clear, rampant replacement theology is still with us here in RF. Now, why don't you go over to the bench and have a seat next to wizanda. Perhaps you two can entertain each other while the adults chat.
Here's a thought to take with you when you go: There's just one mountain and two paths up that mountain: one for the Jews and the other for the followers of Jesus. If you're not on one path or the other, I say you're on a different mountain.

shmogie · Mar 2, 2020

adrian009 said:
What is Supersessionism? According to wikipedia;

Supersessionism, also called replacement theology, is a Christian doctrine which asserts that the New Covenant through Jesus Christ supersedes the Old Covenant, which was made exclusively with the Jewish people.

In Christianity, supersessionism is a theological view on the current status of the church in relation to the Jewish people and Judaism. It holds that the Christian Church has succeeded the Israelites as the definitive people of God or that the New Covenant has replaced or superseded the Mosaic covenant. From a supersessionist's "point of view, just by continuing to exist [outside the Church], the Jews dissent". This view directly contrasts with dual-covenant theology which holds that the Mosaic covenant remains valid for Jews.

Supersessionism has formed a core tenet of the Christian Churches for the majority of their existence. Christian traditions that have traditionally championed dual-covenant theology (including the Roman Catholic, Reformed and Methodist teachings of this doctrine), have taught that the moral law continues to stand.

Supersessionism - Wikipedia

I see problems with supersessionism. I'm trying to better understand the concept not just in regards Christianity but Islam and the Baha'i Faith too. It would be interesting to hear to what extent the Founders of these religions taught supersessionism. However, a consideration of Christianity in relation to Judaism is a logical starting place.

One can assert that the new covenant has replaced the old, yet not believe in replacement theology.

Terry Sampson · Mar 2, 2020

shmogie said:
One can assert that the new covenant has replaced the old, yet not believe in replacement theology.

Neat trick. How do you do that?

shmogie · Mar 2, 2020

Terry Sampson said:
Neat trick. How do you do that?

The Jews are Gods chosen. That is eternal and cannot change.

The Jews as well, have rejected the Messiah, and are outside the path God has designated for mankind.

They abandoned God, He did not abandon them. Throughout their history this has been a pattern.

This will change, and once again they will return and assume their rightful place as desired by God.

To what extent did Jesus promote supersessionism?

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