Uravip2me you find nothing to oversee in a biblical hell as you believe hell is the biblical grave. Well be that as it may. God still does overlook the grave as well. Is it not he that calls forth the dead from the grave and from the sea or wherever they may be.. So yes God certainly does look over the grave as well. As to everything else about death and the afterlife I’m not so sure about this being just purely a man made invention. What about Enoch and Elijah both who were translated fully alive into into heaven seems that no grave was needed for them. You have Jesus saying to the sinner apon the cross ( today you shall be with me in paradise ). You also have the terms forever and everlasting which are very strong in its meaning about the future and eternity and what that means for us. Than you have the case of Lazarus who seems to have remembered nothing about the afterlife with his time in the grave as if he was asleep. You also have much terminology ( with all shall not sleep ) which could mean that all do truly sleep now. As to who is condemned and who is righteous that is for God to decide. For no religion By itself has ever had the power to save anyone. For that power is exclusively Gods power and Gods choice too.
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God is everywhere; is God in Hell?
- Thread starter Jainarayan
- Start date
To me the 'everlasting joy...' of verse 10 holds a larger fulfillment to include a ' spiritual Israel '.
That ' Roadway of Holiness ' ( verse 8 ) does Not put God in any hell / grave but as LORD and Savior .
God will save both living people and resurrected people ( the dead in 'biblical hell 'aka the grave for the sleeping dead ).
Since the dead are Not conscious they can't suffer - Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:4 'sleep the sleep of death'; Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5,10.
Since the dead are in a sleep-like state then there is No point for God to be with the dead.
P.S. the Greek / Aramaic Scriptures puts Not God, but puts righteous dead Jesus in hell - Acts of the Apostles 2:27.
Again, Not some religious-myth hell of burning forever, but biblical hell the temporary stone-cold grave for mankind.
Wow, you have given a lot of thought about hell ( biblical or otherwise )
Biblical hell ( grave ) does cover those buried and drowned at sea - (sea gives up the dead - Revelation 20:13 ).
I can agree God does look 'over' the grave, but God is Not 'in' the grave, Not in any hell.( fiction or non-fiction)
God 'looks over the grave' in the sense that God arranged the Resurrection Hope for the dead.
There is a BIG difference between: resurrection and afterlife.
'Afterlife' implies being more alive 'after' death than before death.
The living or ' being more alive ' do Not need a resurrection.
No one goes to Heaven before Jesus . Jesus was first.- John 3:13
So, the promise Jesus made to the thief was made on the day they died. (today)
The ' today ' meant on this day I promise you a future ' paradise ' a paradisical resurrection.
Since the thief died first, then that future resurrection will be on a paradisical Earth.
This is why Acts of the Apostles 24:15 uses the ' future tense ' that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection...
Enoch and Elijah
3,000 years after Enoch's day Jesus stated No one goes to Heaven before Jesus - John 3:13
Enoch is part of those pre-Christians mentioned at Hebrews 11:13,39 who did Not receive the promise.
The only means of being saved is by Jesus' ransom. In Enoch's day the ransom had Not yet been paid.
This is why even King David did Not ascend - Acts of the Apostles 2:34
What happened was that God was Not going to let enemies kill Enoch.
So, God 'took' Enoch in the same way that God 'took' Moses. - Hebrews 11:5; Jude 1:9; Deuteronomy 34:5-6.
Enoch's life was simply cut short to spare him being killed ( maybe tortured ) by enemies.
Elijah went ascending ( Not resurrecting ) but ascending as a windstorm could take someone to the mid-heavens.
The mid-heavens or the atmospheric expanse where the birds fly.
The wind moved Elijah from one place to another place as we can see in wind storms today.
Elijah was Not greater than John the Baptist and John did Not ascend - Matthew 11:11.
We find at 2 Chronicles 21:12-15 that Elijah was still alive years later and writing to the king.
So, as with all who died before Jesus died, they are all asleep in the grave as was Jesus' friend of John 11:11-14.
Since the 'dead know nothing' is why Jesus' resurrected friend said nothing beyond death.
- Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5
Bird123
Well-Known Member
Is this an excuse not to try? Should one remain a caveman or work at solving the problems leading us all to where we are today and beyond? Mankind has already made that choice regardless of how slow things are moving.
Bird123
Well-Known Member
We all have the power to choose what we value. One can choose to value pain, hurt,and failure or one can choose to value success, the reward new knowledge brings, and the wisdom that was acquired making it through the adversity.
For a Hungry student, mistakes, failure, hurt and pain never matter. One must learn not to value the petty thing of Blame. Keep your eye on the prize. Advancement is built on failure. No one ever gets wise or good without it.
Turning to God is not turning to holy books. They do not understand God at all.
What does God want people to learn?? It all!! Look around you. See the people around you. There are reasons behind everything. See with new eyes. All the secrets of God and the universe stare us all in the face. God hides nothing. What can I learn from the people around me? What can I teach them? That's the way it works in a multilevel classroom.
God's greatest moment is when that light bulb goes off over someone's head and they Understand. This can be about any subject.
Religion and people focus on the feeling part of God. Let's not forget God has an intellectual side. With this in mind, everyone look around you. Let's see what you can Discover for yourself. Surely a light bulb will light up somewhere.
That's what I see. It's very clear!!
Bird123
Well-Known Member
God has no need for holy books. Holy books are all written by mankind. Look closely. That is who they really reflect. God's system is so much more intelligent than mankind's view. Further, there is no need to fry kids when there are so many better things to do.
God is not saying what He wants in holy books. That is mankind speaking, telling you what mankind thinks God wants.
It's so clear those holy books do not come from God because they value so many of the petty things mankind holds so dear----Things like Blame,Hate,Wrath,Ruling, Controlling, Condemning, Punishing,Coercing,Intimidating, conditional love, and such. These things are not God. God is at a Higher Level. How can one be at a Higher Level if one values such things??
That's what I see. It's very clear!!
Oh yes. Happiness. Did you know that Happiness is no more than a Choice?? Happiness is Easy. I will always be Happy!!
Uravip2me yes I’m nearly convinced that we do sleep long time until the appointed time of the Lords return. As to Enoch and Elijah. Well yes I guess they could not ascend into heaven as mere mortals after given that some more thought and a little more study. For flesh and blood cannot enter into the kingdom of God in its present state. A newly glorified resurrection body would be required as mentioned in 1st Corinthians and as with our Lord. As to How Enoch passed away we do not know but its a fair enough opinion with what you have written .But unlike Enoch at least with Moses we do have some description that it was Gods time that he should pass away.
Say that "Biblical death" is really what you say it is. Why do you think sleeping people don't need God?
Figures. Not to me, though. I don't believe in a "spiritual Israel" separate from the real, physical Israel.
Here's a cover of the song I was talking about, BTW:
Huh. Thought you folks believed Jesus was god...
Terry Sampson
Well-Known Member
Not the barbarian Jehovah's Witnesses.
Why barbarian?
Terry Sampson
Well-Known Member
Nicest word I could think of on the spur of the moment?
Good-Ole-Rebel
Well-Known Member
Enoch and Elijah were taken up into heaven with God, body, soul, and spirit. They did not die. They were not resurrected. They were 'raptured'.
The verse you use in (Ecc. 9:5) does not mean the believer or unbeliever is in a state of 'sleep' or unconsciousness. It speaks to the body only. The whole theme of the book of (Ecclesiastes) is the vanity of 'Life under the Sun'. Read it. Solomon even declares in (12:7) that at death, "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."
Both sleep and resurrection pertain to the body. When the Christian dies, he immediately goes to be with Christ, (2 Cor. 5:7-8), to await the resurrection of his body.
Good-Ole-Rebel
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Apparently God does want us to learn from books. Interestingly, chimpanzees and bonobos, etc., do not have books to refer to as far as their history goes. So far as I know, they don't have books to learn from.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Notice the following, speaking of being raised with Christ: "Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God." (Colossians 3:1) Paul wasn't speaking to those in heaven, although those he was speaking to are said to have been raised with Christ.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Hello. If I might say something, Enoch is the one that did not see death, right? I looked up the scripture at Hebrews 11:5 and see various translations for it. Of the first three translations at biblecc.com, one (the NLT) actually says he went to heaven. But not all do.
New International Version
By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: "He could not be found, because God had taken him away." For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.
New Living Translation
It was by faith that Enoch was taken up to heaven without dying—“he disappeared, because God took him.” For before he was taken up, he was known as a person who pleased God.
English Standard Version
By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God.
So just going by those three translations, the NIV says Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death. The NLT says that Enoch was taken up to heaven without dying--then goes on to say he disappeared, because God took him, but from my reading of the Greek interlinear, it does not say Enoch went to heaven. The ESV says Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death. And, of course, each of them says Enoch pleased God. What I also get from this is that there is death, and there is life.
When a person goes into a deep sleep, he usually doesn't imagine that he won't wake up. We might even set our alarms to wake us at a certain time, fully expecting before we fall into a deep sleep that we will wake up. The expression, especially from the Greek, can certainly mean that Enoch did not know that he died. No pain, no suffering, no foregleam of death.
Bird123
Well-Known Member
Books are not supplied by God. Mankind does use books to carry knowledge to the future. There is nothing wrong with that. The future will test and add to that knowledge advancing everyone.
The holy book problem is that they are taught to be blindly believed and never questioned. They are taught that they come from God which they don't.
Religion teaches people to value faith instead of Discovering the truth for oneself. Holy books use intimidation and coercion to gain followers. They show God in a bad light from my point of view. It's not quite honest.
One can find some goodness in holy books. On the other hand, one should always question rather than blindly accept them. As with everything in life, Thinking is required.
That's what I see. It's very clear!!
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Thinking surely is required. Some are taught to be blind, that is true, and Jesus did speak of spiritual blindness. One example is at Matthew 23:16: “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.’ Jesus was not speaking of those who were physically blind, but spiritually blind.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
P.S. Adam and Eve did not have a book to guide them. But then they had children, and then they died anyway. So a book well suits its purpose in this case.
YoursTrue I’m sure if Enoch went to heaven then he must have died the death for it is impossible for fallen human beings to look apon the full glory of God and live as attested to in Exodus 3:1-17 when God spoke to Moses via the burning bush and other passages such as Exodus 33:20 . So certainly some physical transformation to bodily perfection must have taken place for this to be the case: And as you have said Enoch may have not even realised that he had died. But when looking over the entirety of scripture it does seem to say that we do sleep long time until that appointed day. Of course there are some occasions when this is not the norm. Such as the damsel being brought back to life along with Lazarus and of course when the Jesus was being crucified and had just died with many of the saints coming back to life who did arise from out of their tombs. But in all these instances it seems that all did sleep prior. Matthew 27:50-53. Look very closely at v52 And the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints which SLEPT arose. Did they get to enjoy another 3 score and 10 yrs. Not much more is known about the occurrence. Only that the quest for immortality and eternal youth does continue to live within our hearts and is passed on from generation to generation..