How God’s Kingdom Will Come—Not What You Think!

halbhh · Feb 28, 2020

Trailblazer said:
I said: "All I want to know is where Jesus said He was going to return to earth,"

How is trying out the things Christ said, and finding out what happens related to the return of Christ?

When I pointed to where in the gospels and the New Testament we see the answer about the 2nd coming, it was not convincing to you. Ok....

But there is a crucial help, a next step -- hearing and doing his words to us.
It's:
a) the only way to be saved
b) one gains the truly invaluable
c) also smaller questions about how to interpret become far easier

Have a good day!

1213 · Feb 28, 2020

Trailblazer said:
I agree that the Kingdom of Jesus was not of this world, not a Kingdom that would ever come to exist on earth.

By what the Bible tells, the kingdom is within the people. And if people are on earth, the kingdom is also.

Trailblazer said:
So, what do you make of this verse? If you believe that the Son of man is Jesus, how will Jesus come in the glory of his Father with his angels?

For the Son of Man will come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will render to everyone according to his deeds.
Matt. 16:27

I know about that only what the Bible tells about it. It happens in some way that will be very clear to you.

Trailblazer · Feb 28, 2020

halbhh said:
When I pointed to where in the gospels and the New Testament we see the answer about the 2nd coming, it was not convincing to you. Ok....

Sorry, I do not recall you posting any verses in which Jesus said He was going to return to earth.

Trailblazer · Feb 28, 2020

1213 said:
I know about that only what the Bible tells about it. It happens in some way that will be very clear to you.

I believe it did happen and it was very clear to me. However, it was not clear to everyone, because as predicted, the Son of man came in the clouds.

halbhh · Feb 28, 2020

Trailblazer said:
Sorry, I do not recall you posting any verses in which Jesus said He was going to return to earth.

I'll copy it here and add another.

16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”

17 The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.

18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!

Revelation 22 ESV

First the isolated verse (but next the crucial context!)
Matthew 24:27 For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
-- The word of Jesus, the Christ, in Matthew chapter 24

Now look for the full context to get it exactly as it is --

4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ a spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.

26“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

(while that and some more are in memory, one can also simply use google, and get something like this: 15 Bible Verses about the Second coming --
"So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him." Matthew 24:44)

But!...the Kingdom is here, now, and being realized here and now also, as we hear from Christ also. So, it's both -- both the Kingdom is here and Christ will return just as He says.

cataway · Feb 28, 2020

I

Trailblazer said:
Can you prove that, or is it just a belief?

do wonder what you except as proof
we know that God is spirit we know that he exists in heaven. scripture says he sits on his thrown and Jesus is at his right hand . that is known to be in heaven and called the kingdom of the heavens .
Jesus said to his apostles
Luke22:29 "and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel."

(John 14:2) ''In the house of my Father are many dwelling places. Otherwise, I would have told you, for I am going my way to prepare a place for you.''

then at REVELATION 20:4 it pictures what they will be doing in heaven " And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge."

URAVIP2ME · Feb 28, 2020

1213 said:
By what the Bible tells, the kingdom is within the people. And if people are on earth, the kingdom is also.
I know about that only what the Bible tells about it. It happens in some way that will be very clear to you.

I am wondering where in Scripture it says the kingdom is within people___________________
I find at Luke 17:20-21 that Jesus is speaking 'Not to people in general' but speaking to the hate-filled Pharisees.
What was ' within ' those corrupted religious leaders is what is mentioned at Mark 7:20-23.
It is Not until ' after ' Jesus finishes speaking to those Pharisees that then Jesus addresses his followers.
The next verse (Luke 17:22) is where Jesus is speaking to his disciples.
If God's kingdom government (Daniel 2:44) was within them there would have been No need for what Jesus says to his followers at Luke 19:11-15 that the kingdom would Not immediately appear.....
Rather, at Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8 Jesus was putting emphasis on the great global-sized work to first take place before God's Kingdom government would arrive.

URAVIP2ME · Feb 28, 2020

cataway said:
I do wonder what you except as proof
we know that God is spirit we know that he exists in heaven. scripture says he sits on his thrown and Jesus is at his right hand . that is known to be in heaven and called the kingdom of the heavens .
Jesus said to his apostles
Luke 22:29 "and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel."
(John 14:2) ''In the house of my Father are many dwelling places. Otherwise, I would have told you, for I am going my way to prepare a place for you.''

cataway said:
then at REVELATION 20:4 it pictures what they will be doing in heaven " And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge."

Yes, God sits on His throne and Jesus sits on his throne as per Revelation 3:21.
Besides having a thronely position of Rev. 20:4 I find they have two (2) jobs to do:
Revelation 5:9-10 informs us they will act as both kings and priests under Christ.
* As kings they will take care of governmental responsibilities towards people living on Earth.
* As priests they will take care of spiritual duties towards the people who will inherit the Earth.
So, they will also assist Jesus at the time of Revelation 17:14.
Even assist at the soon coming 'time of separation' to take place on Earth as mentioned at Matthew 25:31-33.

URAVIP2ME · Feb 28, 2020

Trailblazer said:
I believe that he Bible is right. The Kingdom of God will be is permanent justice, peace and joy.
The Messiah will usher in this kingdom...
I believe the Kingdom will include people of all nations. I do not believe in Israel's hope, that the Kingdom will be a restoration of David's kingdom or that the Kingdom will come first among the people of Israel. I believe that first there will be a sifting, a separating of wheat from tares, but eventually everyone will enter the Kingdom and the whole world will be united in peace and harmony. Nobody will be cast out of God's Kingdom...............

Yes, Messiah will usher in the kingdom of Daniel 2:44.
However, there will be those who will or can be ' cast out ' until ' after ' the end of Messiah's thousand-year reign over Earth.

Right now, those who prove to be figurative haughty ' goats ' at the soon coming ' time of separation ' to take place on Earth as per Matthew 25:31-33 will be ' cast out ', so to speak, before the start of Jesus' 1,000-year reign over Earth begins.

Trailblazer · Feb 28, 2020

cataway said:
do wonder what you except as proof

What I would accept as proof is if Jesus said somewhere in His gospels that He was going to return to earth after He died and went to heaven.

cataway · Feb 28, 2020

Trailblazer said:
What I would accept as proof is if Jesus said somewhere in His gospels that He was going to return to earth after He died and went to heaven.

as a man ?? no he has no reason to .

Trailblazer · Feb 28, 2020

halbhh said:
16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”

17 The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.

18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!

Revelation 22 ESV

I do not see anything in these verses where Jesus says He is coming back to earth.

halbhh said:
First the isolated verse (but next the crucial context!)
Matthew 24:27 For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
-- The word of Jesus, the Christ, in Matthew chapter 24

Jesus said the Son of Man would come. Jesus did not say He would come.

halbhh said:
Now look for the full context to get it exactly as it is --

4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ a spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.

26“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

(while that and some more are in memory, one can also simply use google, and get something like this: 15 Bible Verses about the Second coming --
"So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him." Matthew 24:44)

These verses are about the second coming, but there is no reason to believe that it would be Jesus the same man in the flesh who would be coming and every reason to believe it would not be Jesus the same man in the flesh.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

halbhh said:
4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many.

That is a dead giveaway that the name of the one who would return would not be Jesus Christ. Rather, it would be a man with a new name.

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Trailblazer · Feb 28, 2020

cataway said:
as a man ?? no he has no reason to .

I agree. So how would Jesus return?

cataway · Feb 28, 2020

Trailblazer said:
I agree. So how would Jesus return?

its far more likely he would send angels

Trailblazer · Feb 28, 2020

cataway said:
its far more likely he would send angels

I believe He has.

Ancient Soul · Feb 28, 2020

WhyIsThatSo said:
Let me help you then, and I will try to be as simplistic as I can.

The moral law given to Moses by the OT God is a trap to keep you here lifetime after lifetime. In essence, it is the law of
"karma" that most people don't even know exist, or they don't believe in. It's a "mechanical" law of cause and effect.
Every effect has a cause, and every cause has an effect....like an unbroken chain that never ends.

Everything is energy in this realm ( like Einstein said ), and every time you "do" something you expend energy....
negatively (bad), or positively (good).
And that energy ALWAYS returns to you....and in the EXACT same way that it went out from you.

So, when you do something, whatever effect that "something" causes, that same effect is what will return
to you eventually.
If the effect you caused was good, it will return in some way to you as good.
If the effect you caused was bad, it will return to you some way as bad.

So, when you have a law for example that says " you shall not kill " , and you live in a world where you cannot help but "kill"
in order to stay alive...….do you see the problem here ?
In this world you are "guilty of sin" BY DEFAULT.....you can't win. That's why "keeping the law" of Moses is impossible to do
for us here. It's a RIGGED game.

The only problem is , it's no game for us when we have to "pay" for our transgressions of that law.
And when you die, you will be "judged" by that same law ….IF you don't KNOW any better.
And then sent right back here again in another body, to play the "game" all over again.

THIS is how the "god of this world", the OT God does things here..
But the Father, the True God, the Living God, has NO LAW except that of "LOVE".

Nice word gymnastics, but it STILL has nothing to do with your original statement of:

"I don't think it takes a rocket scientist , for anyone who has seriously studied the Christian/Hebrew scriptures , to see that there is
an insurmountable difference between the God of the OT and the God of the Christ in the NT."

As "karma" is not a Christian belief, and has no bearing on the wrathful evil Christian "god" in either the OT or the NT. For without the Christian "god" being a sick evil monster, the whole "salvation" fear mongering thing just falls flat and nobody would buy into the insane mythology without the sick evil monster of a "god" they need to be "saved" from.

WhyIsThatSo · Feb 29, 2020

Ancient Soul said:
Nice word gymnastics, but it STILL has nothing to do with your original statement of:

"I don't think it takes a rocket scientist , for anyone who has seriously studied the Christian/Hebrew scriptures , to see that there is
an insurmountable difference between the God of the OT and the God of the Christ in the NT."

As "karma" is not a Christian belief, and has no bearing on the wrathful evil Christian "god" in either the OT or the NT. For without the Christian "god" being a sick evil monster, the whole "salvation" fear mongering thing just falls flat and nobody would buy into the insane mythology without the sick evil monster of a "god" they need to be "saved" from.

Well, lets see now......the OT God killed anyone who didn't "worship" Him, men , women, and children......complete genocide in some cases.
The NT God (Christ) healed the sick, gave sight to the blind and hearing to the deaf, exorcized demons ( mental illness ),
and RAISED THE DEAD.

So, I'm going to have to downgrade my original post, just for you..
to " it doesn't take a 5th grader " ( instead of a rocket scientist ).

And FYI......the early church, the TRUE church, understood the teaching of reincarnation and karma, and accepted it as such.

cataway · Feb 29, 2020

WhyIsThatSo said:
And FYI......the early church, the TRUE church, understood the teaching of reincarnation and karma, and accepted it as such.

wow ,all of a sudden I can hear twilight zone music

WhyIsThatSo · Feb 29, 2020

cataway said:
wow ,all of a sudden I can hear twilight zone music

Do some homework, and you may hear more.

CG Didymus · Feb 29, 2020

Trailblazer said:
I do not see anything in these verses where Jesus says He is coming back to earth.
Jesus said the Son of Man would come. Jesus did not say He would come.

To the Christians at that time, who did they believe the Messiah and Son of Man to be? Halbhh quoted these verses from Revelation:

16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches.
So who's talking was it an angel was it Jesus? Was it an angel and then Jesus butts in?

17 The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come...
Now who's talking the "Spirit"? The Holy Spirit, the angel? But anyway, whoever it is it is saying for someone to "come". Who are they talking about?

20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!
Who's is testifying to these things? Jesus or the angel? Anyway, I would assume that it is Jesus that says "I am coming soon? Then who is it, John? Who says "Come, Lord Jesus".

Is there any reason from this that any Christian would not believe Jesus is the one coming back? Plus, all the verses that talk about the "Son of Man" coming back and the "Lamb that was Slain" and whatever other vague references there are. They didn't believe in multiple manifestations. They believe in one Messiah and they believed Jesus was him. And all those other names and titles they believe refer to Jesus.

Since Jesus did not complete all the things he was supposed to, they believe it is going to be him that is coming back. And no, just because he said he finished some of his work doesn't mean he won't come back to finish another project. Just like a carpenter can finish one room addition for you and say, "That's it. I'm finished and going home." But then come back a year later and build you a storage shed. Jesus, supposedly, finished his project of pissing off the Jewish leaders and getting himself killed in order to, supposedly, be the perfect and only sacrifice that God, his Father, would accept for the forgiveness of sins.

What are the problems with their interpretations? Lots of things, but one major problem is... we don't know if Jesus ever spoke any of the things they say he did. We have to trust the things his followers said. Then Paul says all that stuff about Jesus coming back in the air and dead Christians, then alive ones rise up into the sky to be with him. Do we trust what Paul says? How did he know this? God told him? Then some Christians take from that and from what it says in Revelation to say they all come back with Jesus and he conquers evil, throws Satan into the lake of fire, the New Jerusalem descends and the Lamb and God are the light of the city. Sure sounds like everything is changed and made perfect upon the return.

But that interpretation is nowhere near what the Baha'is say. Baha'is say it is a "process". We have been given the plan and the laws to start building God's kingdom on Earth. Are Baha's trustworthy? Do they make wrong interpretations? If it came from Baha'u'llah or his son, then it is supposed to be the absolute truth. One problem for me is progressive revelation... all religions are all from the same God and have taught what was needed to advance civilization to the next level? And, they all pointed to this day when Baha'u'llah would bring the teachings that would unite the world? But, each religion teaches very different things about who, when and what will happen?

But that is easy for Baha'is to explain... every single religion has misinterpreted their own writings. And they all have added man-made traditions into their religions. So, in other words, there is no proof of anything, because the proof was in the "original" teachings of the prophet/manifestation. And where are those "original" teachings? No where to be found. So we are supposed to take the word of Baha'u'llah?

What a confusing mess God has left us with. Abdul Baha only "interpreted" a few chapters in Revelation. He gives, in my opinion, a terrible interpretation of the resurrection of Jesus. So I can't, at the moment, say I can trust everything the Baha'is are saying. But, you have shown how we can't trust what the Christians having been saying either. And one NT verse I think is completely wrong... and that is... God is not the author of confusion. Yes, he is. Or, it's the people that write things and claim it came from God that make things confusing.

How God’s Kingdom Will Come—Not What You Think!

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