How God’s Kingdom Will Come—Not What You Think!

Trailblazer said:

Please present the proof that I attacked any of your posts.
Do you consider disagreeing attacking?

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See!

There you go again!

You didn't even go back and READ what I was discussing, as I requested. Making it clear that you just don't care about discussing anything, just jumping right into attack mode.

Here's the part you deceitfully edited out:

"Go back and CAREFULLY read the WHOLE post. I re-posted it up top so you don't have to exert yourself too much and maybe hurt your scroll finger."

Ancient Soul said:

I really don't care to deal with all your deceit and hatred.

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Speak for yourself. I tried to be friends with you but you spew hate.
This is the last time I will read a post from you. You are now on Ignore so I won't see anything you post.

True spiritual matters are about love, not hate. The Christians sure had that right.

Trailblazer said:

Speak for yourself. I tried to be friends with you but you spew hate.
This is the last time I will read a post from you. You are now on Ignore so I won't see anything you post.

True spiritual matters are about love, not hate. The Christians sure had that right.

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And yet here you are once again refusing to discuss what I was discussing/debating with someone else, and spewing out your hatred. And you call that "friendship"?

Do you really think you are fooling anyone with your deceitful usage of "I tried to be friends with you", when you really butted in and went into attack mode over a debate between myself and "Unity of Mankind".

So yes, please ignore me!!!

cataway said:

where ,what spot on earth would he be returning to ? he will be ruling over the entire earth. he will be ruling from heaven .

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Jesus is already ruling from His throne in heaven.

Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

“The Throne upon which He sat is the Eternal Throne from which Christ reigns for ever, a heavenly throne, not an earthly one, for the things of earth pass away but heavenly things pass not away. He re-interpreted and completed the Law of Moses and fulfilled the Law of the Prophets. His word conquered the East and the West. His Kingdom is everlasting.” Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks

nPeace said:

According to the scriptures, Jesus promised two returns, in two ways.
1)
(John 14:2-4) 2 In the house of my Father are many dwelling places. Otherwise, I would have told you, for I am going my way to prepare a place for you. 3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will receive you home to myself, so that where I am you also may be.

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Jesus did not say He would come to earth again in the same body. This verse means that Jesus will come to them again “in spirit” so the disciples could be with Him in spirit.

This cannot mean Jesus was coming to earth to receive the disciples because where Jesus was preparing a place was in heaven, on not earth.

That is besides that fact that the disciples were dead when this was written so Jesus could not have received them unto Himself anywhere but heaven since heaven is where souls go when they die.

nPeace said:

(1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17) 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.

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These verses are not Jesus saying He would return to earth. They are Paul saying the Lord will come. These verses contradict what Jesus said, that His work was finished here and He was no more in the world.

nPeace said:

Thus Jesus returns, according to the angels, "in the same manner as you have seen him going into the sky.” - Acts 1:11.

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This verse is not Jesus saying He would return to earth. Below is my interpretation of those that verse in context.

Acts 1:9-11 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

The disciples were staring up into the sky as the spirit of Jesus was taken up to heaven out of their sight. The two men dressed in white (angels) came along and asked why they were staring up into the sky because they wondered why the disciples were staring up into the sky. Then the angels told the disciples that the same spirit of Jesus that was taken up to heaven will return just as it went to heaven, in like manner.

It does not say that the disciples saw a body go up. It was the Christ Spirit that ascended, not a body, which is why the angels wondered why the disciples were staring into the sky, since there was nothing to look at. That makes perfect sense since angels can see spirits whereas the disciples couldn’t.

Descending from heaven upon the clouds means that the spirit of Jesus, the Christ Spirit, will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God and will appear in the form of the human temple. Though delivered from the womb of Mary, Jesus in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God. It was another human who was slated to descend in like manner, from the heaven of the will of God.

nPeace said:

2)
(Matthew 16:28-17:9)
28 Truly I say to you that there are some of those standing here who will not taste death at all until first they see the Son of man coming in his Kingdom.”

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We know that verse was either a lie or it refers to something other than the return of Jesus because those standing there were dead before the alleged second coming of Jesus.

nPeace said:

 171 Six days later Jesus took Peter and James and his brother John along and led them up into a lofty mountain by themselves. 2 And he was transfigured before them; his face shone as the sun, and his outer garments became brilliant as the light. ... 9 As they were descending from the mountain, Jesus commanded them: “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is raised up from the dead.”

Some had a vision, of a symbolic representation of the coming kingdom. (Luke 9:27) But I tell you truly, there are some of those standing here who will not taste death at all until first they see the Kingdom of God.”

(Matthew 24:29-31) 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.
See 1 Thessalonians 4:17.
Here Jesus returns as king to execute judgment upon the nations... according to scripture.
(Matthew 26:64) Jesus said to him: “You yourself said it. But I say to you: From now on you will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
(Mark 13:26) And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
(Luke 21:27) And then they will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

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I believe that the title ‘Son of man’ is symbolic of the perfect humanity that Jesus represented, but it does not apply exclusively to Jesus. It ultimately comes from the Book of Daniel, where it refers to the Messiah. It is a Baha’i teaching that the title applies to both Jesus and Baha’u’llah.

To explain in brief, I believe that ‘Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven’ means that the return of the Christ Spirit promised in the Bible will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God, and will appear in the form of a human being. The term “heaven” means loftiness and exaltation. Although Jesus was delivered from the womb of His mother, in reality He descended from the heaven of the will of God. Though dwelling on this earth, His true habitation was the realms above. While walking among mortals on earth, Jesus soared in the heaven of the divine presence.

Baha’u’llah explained the meaning of clouds in The Kitáb-i-Íqán. The term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, the desires of men hindered men from recognizing the return of Christ.

To further explain the teaming of clouds, Baha’is believe that the term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. They signify, in one sense, the annulment of laws, the abrogation of former Dispensations, the repeal of rituals and customs current among men. In another sense, they mean the appearance of a Manifestation of God in the image of mortal man, with such human limitations as eating and drinking, poverty and riches, sleeping and waking, and such other things as cast doubt in the minds of men, and cause them to turn away. These “veils” to recognition of a Manifestation of God are symbolically referred to as “clouds.” Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, these things hinder the souls of men from recognizing the light of the Manifestation of God.

Thus the meaning of clouds is symbolic, not literal. Their judgment was clouded. Christians were looking for the same man Jesus in the same body that resurrected and ascended to appear in the actual physical clouds in the sky with power and great glory, trumpets and angels, but when that did not happen that way they rejected Baha’u’llah. However, if one looks at what happened before, during and after Baha’u’llah appeared there is not one prophecy that cannot be applied to Him.

Much of this is explained in Thief in the Night by William Sears, who researched the Bible prophecies for seven years and explained exactly how they were fulfilled by the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

Thus when Jesus said “ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven” we believe that means that His Return, the next Manifestation of God, would reside in the loftiness and exaltation of the divine presence (heaven), and would come down to earth by the will of God in the clouds (veiled from the sight of most people), like a thief in the night.

The reason Christians missed recognizing Baha’u’llah in the mid-19th century (and still do not recognize Him) is because they are waiting for the “literal fulfillment” of those Son of man in the clouds of heaven prophecies. They expect the same physical body of Jesus to come floating down on a physical cloud from heaven, but I am sure you already know this since it is a basic Christian belief.

nPeace said:

I think you meant, which of the scriptures support the view that Jesus will not return to earth in person, but he will return, as promised... a second time. The scriptures in the post above, show Jesus promised to return... as king of God's kingdom - see scriptures in this link.

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I do not see any scriptures on that link where Jesus promised to return. He said we would see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory and he will sit down on his glorious throne (third person) but He was not referring to Himself, as I just explained in my previous post.

nPeace said:

I can only go by what the scriptures say.
Your interpretation is just an interpretation.

I take the scriptures to be true, not the interpretation of them. (Romans 3:4) But let God be found true, even if every man be found a liar. . .

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Scriptures do not talk. They have to be read and interpreted by someone. Your interpretation is just a different interpretation than mine. Anyone who does not understand this has a serious problem with logical reasoning.

Everyone who reads scriptures has a different interpretation; some are very different and some are only slightly different. That proves that there can be more than one interpretation. Who is to say WHICH interpretation is the correct one? It is more likely that more than one interpretation is valid and we are all just looking at them from different perspectives.

nPeace said:

According to you, "Christians just want it to be Jesus so they interpret verses to mean they are about Jesus. The prophecies have been fulfilled so they cannot be re-fulfilled by Jesus."
According to scripture...
(Matthew 24:30, 31) 30 . . .the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.

Who is the son of man, in this case, according to scripture? This is a question to you please.

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The Son of man in this case is Baha’u’llah

nPeace said:

(Matthew 8:19, 20) 19 And a scribe came up and said to him: “Teacher, I will follow you wherever you go.” 20 But Jesus said to him: “Foxes have dens and birds of heaven have nests, but the Son of man has nowhere to lay down his head.”
(Matthew 9:6) However, in order for you to know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins—” then he said to the paralytic: “Get up, pick up your stretcher, and go to your home.”
(Matthew 10:23) When they persecute you in one city, flee to another; for truly I say to you, you will by no means complete the circuit of the cities of Israel until the Son of man arrives.
(Matthew 11:18, 19) 18 Likewise, John came neither eating nor drinking, but people say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19 The Son of man did come eating and drinking, but people say, ‘Look! A man who is a glutton and is given to drinking wine, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ All the same, wisdom is proved righteous by its works.”
(Matthew 12:8) For the Son of man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
(Matthew 12:32) For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come.
(Matthew 12:40) For just as Joʹnah was in the belly of the huge fish for three days and three nights, so the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights.

I don't want to fill the page with 80 scriptures, where Jesus used the expression, "son of man", so I will just conclude with his revealing the identity of the son of man, as mentioned over 80 times in the Gospels.

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The title ‘Son of man’ is symbolic of the perfect humanity that Jesus represented, but it does not apply exclusively to Jesus. It ultimately comes from the Book of Daniel, where it refers to the Messiah. It is a Baha’i teaching that the title applies to both Jesus and Baha’u’llah.

nPeace said:

(Matthew 16:13-17) 13 When he had come into the region of Caesarea Philippi, Jesus asked his disciples: “Who are men saying the Son of man is?” 14 They said: “Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, and still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 He said to them: “You, though, who do you say I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 In response Jesus said to him: “Happy you are, Simon son of Joʹnah, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father in the heavens did.

Seems plain to see, Jesus directly identified himself as the son of man.

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It appears to me that on Matthew 16:13-17, Jesus was identifying Himself as the Son of God, which is a Baha’i belief; although we do not believe that Jesus was the biological Son of God, we believe Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. It is also a Baha’i belief that Jesus was the Son of man:


I do not dispute that Jesus was the Son of man because Baha’u’llah referred to Jesus as the Son of man. Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah was the return if the Son of man. Presumably Jesus knew that Baha’u’llah was the Son of man because Jesus was the one who sent Baha’u’llah from the Father, referring to Baha’u’llah as another Comforter and the Spirit of truth.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah was the Comforter and the Spirit of truth. One of the various proofs of that is that Baha’u’llah did exactly what Jesus said the Comforter and Spirit of truth would do.

Referring to Jesus as the Son of Man, Baha’u’llah testified of Jesus and glorified Jesus.

“We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 86

By glorifying and testifying of Jesus Baha’u’llah fulfilled two promises of Jesus.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:13-14 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

nPeace said:

Of course, you know people say Bahais interpret the scriptures to suit Their beliefs in Bahaullah's teachings.
I have said this myself. Does it not appear to be the case, to you?

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I am sure you know that a lot of atheists say that the Bible can be made to say whatever you want it to say and I believe that is true because the same verses can have more than one meaning.

No, it does not appear to me to be the case Baha’is interpret the scriptures to suit our beliefs in Baha’u’llah’s teachings. The New Testament either fits together with what Baha’u’llah wrote or not. I believe it can be proven that Baha’u’llah was who He claimed to be by reading what Baha’u’llah wrote alongside the New Testament (and the Old Testament). Jesus confirms the station of Baha’u’llah and Baha’u’llah confirms the station of Jesus. Of course the caveat is that Jesus did not refer to Baha’u’llah by name since nobody knew what His name would be back when the New Testament was written.

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Trailblazer said:

Jesus did not say He would come to earth again in the same body. This verse means that Jesus will come to them again “in spirit” so the disciples could be with Him in spirit.

This cannot mean Jesus was coming to earth to receive the disciples because where Jesus was preparing a place was in heaven, on not earth.

That is besides that fact that the disciples were dead when this was written so Jesus could not have received them unto Himself anywhere but heaven since heaven is where souls go when they die.

These verses are not Jesus saying He would return to earth. They are Paul saying the Lord will come. These verses contradict what Jesus said, that His work was finished here and He was no more in the world.

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Where did you read anything that said Jesus would return to the earth? I don't recall writing it. Did you read it in one of my posts? If so, could you point it out please.
The air where the saints meet the Lord, is not the earth, is it.
Where does Paul contradict Jesus, please?
Jesus said he would come. Paul said he would come. That's what we read in the Bible. That's what the scriptures say.
What you want them to mean, is a different story.

Trailblazer said:

This verse is not Jesus saying He would return to earth. Below is my interpretation of those that verse in context.

Acts 1:9-11 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

The disciples were staring up into the sky as the spirit of Jesus was taken up to heaven out of their sight. The two men dressed in white (angels) came along and asked why they were staring up into the sky because they wondered why the disciples were staring up into the sky. Then the angels told the disciples that the same spirit of Jesus that was taken up to heaven will return just as it went to heaven, in like manner.

It does not say that the disciples saw a body go up. It was the Christ Spirit that ascended, not a body, which is why the angels wondered why the disciples were staring into the sky, since there was nothing to look at. That makes perfect sense since angels can see spirits whereas the disciples couldn’t.

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Where does it say that the spirit of Jesus was taken up to heaven, out of their sight?
Telling me what you think a scripture means, without showing me what the scriptures say, is not important, is it?
If I just said, scripture A means X, that is just my words. It's not scripture, and thus unimportant to a Christian.

What was the disciples seeing as Jesus spoke to them?
(Acts 1:3, 4) 3 After he had suffered, he showed himself alive to them by many convincing proofs. He was seen by them throughout 40 days, and he was speaking about the Kingdom of God. 4 While he was meeting with them, he ordered them: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but keep waiting for what the Father has promised, about which you heard from me;

Was it a spirit? Can you describe it please? What were they seeing?

(Acts 1:6) So when they had assembled, they asked him: “Lord, . . .
(Acts 1:9) After he had said these things, while they were looking on, he was lifted up and a cloud caught him up from their sight.

Trailblazer said:

Descending from heaven upon the clouds means that the spirit of Jesus, the Christ Spirit, will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God and will appear in the form of the human temple. Though delivered from the womb of Mary, Jesus in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God. It was another human who was slated to descend in like manner, from the heaven of the will of God.

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I'm not sure what you mean by the spirit of Jesus. Can you please explain, and do so, from the Bible please, since it is the Bible we are talking about here.

Trailblazer said:

We know that verse was either a lie or it refers to something other than the return of Jesus because those standing there were dead before the alleged second coming of Jesus.

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We do? No please.
You think so.
However, I am not following your argument. I'm lost. What does the disciple's death have to do with the coming?
Can you please explain what you are trying to say.

Trailblazer said:

I believe that the title ‘Son of man’ is symbolic of the perfect humanity that Jesus represented, but it does not apply exclusively to Jesus. It ultimately comes from the Book of Daniel, where it refers to the Messiah. It is a Baha’i teaching that the title applies to both Jesus and Baha’u’llah.

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You believe that the title ‘Son of man’ is symbolic of the perfect humanity that Jesus represented
That's what you believe. Now what did Jesus and his followers believe? Surely you are interested in that? Are you?

What about what they said?
That's in the Bible. Can we talk about what's in the Bible?
Perhaps I should ask... do you also decide what to accept from the Bible, and what to discard?
Do you accept these scriptures?

(Matthew 12:40) For just as Joʹnah was in the belly of the huge fish for three days and three nights, so the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights.
(Matthew 16:13-17) 13 When he had come into the region of Caesarea Philippi, Jesus asked his disciples: “Who are men saying the Son of man is?” 14 They said: “Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, and still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 He said to them: “You, though, who do you say I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 In response Jesus said to him: “Happy you are, Simon son of Joʹnah, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father in the heavens did.

Trailblazer said:

To explain in brief, I believe that ‘Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven’ means that the return of the Christ Spirit promised in the Bible will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God, and will appear in the form of a human being. The term “heaven” means loftiness and exaltation. Although Jesus was delivered from the womb of His mother, in reality He descended from the heaven of the will of God. Though dwelling on this earth, His true habitation was the realms above. While walking among mortals on earth, Jesus soared in the heaven of the divine presence.

Baha’u’llah explained the meaning of clouds in The Kitáb-i-Íqán. The term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, the desires of men hindered men from recognizing the return of Christ.

To further explain the teaming of clouds, Baha’is believe that the term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. They signify, in one sense, the annulment of laws, the abrogation of former Dispensations, the repeal of rituals and customs current among men. In another sense, they mean the appearance of a Manifestation of God in the image of mortal man, with such human limitations as eating and drinking, poverty and riches, sleeping and waking, and such other things as cast doubt in the minds of men, and cause them to turn away. These “veils” to recognition of a Manifestation of God are symbolically referred to as “clouds.” Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, these things hinder the souls of men from recognizing the light of the Manifestation of God.

Thus the meaning of clouds is symbolic, not literal. Their judgment was clouded. Christians were looking for the same man Jesus in the same body that resurrected and ascended to appear in the actual physical clouds in the sky with power and great glory, trumpets and angels, but when that did not happen that way they rejected Baha’u’llah. However, if one looks at what happened before, during and after Baha’u’llah appeared there is not one prophecy that cannot be applied to Him.

Much of this is explained in Thief in the Night by William Sears, who researched the Bible prophecies for seven years and explained exactly how they were fulfilled by the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

Thus when Jesus said “ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven” we believe that means that His Return, the next Manifestation of God, would reside in the loftiness and exaltation of the divine presence (heaven), and would come down to earth by the will of God in the clouds (veiled from the sight of most people), like a thief in the night.

The reason Christians missed recognizing Baha’u’llah in the mid-19th century (and still do not recognize Him) is because they are waiting for the “literal fulfillment” of those Son of man in the clouds of heaven prophecies. They expect the same physical body of Jesus to come floating down on a physical cloud from heaven, but I am sure you already know this since it is a basic Christian belief.

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The return of the Christ spirit, as promised in the Bible? Where would I find that, exactly... which scripture?
Christians are not looking for Christ's physical body to come floating down on a physical cloud from heaven.
According to Wikipedia...
Views about the nature of Jesus's Second Coming vary among Christian denominations and among individual Christians.
However, nowhere does the article say that any of these denominations have the idea of Jesus' return in a physical body.

In Rosicrucian esoteric Christian teaching... The Second Coming or Advent of the Christ is not in a physical body...
Are you making those claims based on actual fact, or did you assume this. The facts do not support such a claim... Unless I missed them, and you can show me otherwise.

Trailblazer said:

I do not see any scriptures on that link where Jesus promised to return. He said we would see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory and he will sit down on his glorious throne (third person) but He was not referring to Himself, as I just explained in my previous post.

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(John 14:3) Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will receive you home to myself, so that where I am you also may be.

(Matthew 16:27) For the Son of man is to come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will repay each one according to his behavior.

(Matthew 24:30) Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

(Matthew 24:42-44)
42 Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.
44 On this account, you too prove yourselves ready, because the Son of man is coming at an hour that you do not think to be it.

(Matthew 25:31, 32) 31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. (Matthew 16:27)

Again. Who is the son of man in the Gospels?
If it is Christ, then what problem are you having with these scriptures?
Why do you say they do not refer to Christ?

Trailblazer said:

Scriptures do not talk. They have to be read and interpreted by someone. Your interpretation is just a different interpretation than mine. Anyone who does not understand this has a serious problem with logical reasoning.

Everyone who reads scriptures has a different interpretation; some are very different and some are only slightly different. That proves that there can be more than one interpretation. Who is to say WHICH interpretation is the correct one? It is more likely that more than one interpretation is valid and we are all just looking at them from different perspectives.

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Joseph said, interpretation belongs to God. I go with that. So we differ in our views on that. The scriptures - God's word has the correct interpretation.
There can be more than one understanding to any spoken word.

Trailblazer said:

The Son of man in this case is Baha’u’llah

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On what basis do you decide that? How can you pick and choose which scriptures you want to say refers to your prophet? Either the son of man refers to Christ Jesus, or it does not. One's choosing what suits one is a gross misuse of scripture, and a betrayal of it's representation.

Trailblazer said:

The title ‘Son of man’ is symbolic of the perfect humanity that Jesus represented, but it does not apply exclusively to Jesus. It ultimately comes from the Book of Daniel, where it refers to the Messiah. It is a Baha’i teaching that the title applies to both Jesus and Baha’u’llah.

It appears to me that on Matthew 16:13-17, Jesus was identifying Himself as the Son of God, which is a Baha’i belief; although we do not believe that Jesus was the biological Son of God, we believe Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. It is also a Baha’i belief that Jesus was the Son of man:

Son of God and Son of Man

In the previously quoted passage Baháu'lláh appears to specifically affirm the title 'Son of Man (or 'Son of Humanity, as some modern Christian theologians prefer to translate it) as referring to Jesus. Baháu'lláh does not say what the term means, and Christian tradition has been fairly vague about the terms meaning. It ultimately comes from the Book of Daniel, where it refers to the Messiah, and is frequently used in the Gospels as a title of Jesus. Presumably the title is symbolic of the perfect humanity that Jesus represented.

Although the Bahá'í writings say nothing about the title 'Son of God (or 'only begotten Son of God, [John 3:16]) there is much that can be said about it from a Bahá'í perspective. 'Son of God is an extremely important title of Jesus for Christians, so much so that in the minds of many Christians 'Son of God' defines the relationship of Jesus with His Father. But often Christians do not think about the symbolic meaning of the title; indeed, many seem unaware that the title is symbolic at all.

What does the term 'Son' mean? Normally, the word has a simple biological meaning, but that meaning is the very one that cannot apply to the relationship between God and Jesus, for God does not have genetic material to confer upon Jesus, nor does God have a body with which He could unite with Mary to produce a son. Christian theology never meant the term to be understood literally; as the above quote from Gregory of Nazianzus emphasizes, God begot Christ 'without passion, of course, and without reference to time, and not in a corporeal manner' ('The Third Theological Oration – On the Son' 161). The Qur'án echoes Gregory's recognition of God's transcendence when it says, 'Allah is only one God. Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that He should have a son' (Qur'án 5:171).
Jesus Christ in the Bahá'í Writings​

I do not dispute that Jesus was the Son of man because Baha’u’llah referred to Jesus as the Son of man. Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah was the return if the Son of man. Presumably Jesus knew that Baha’u’llah was the Son of man because Jesus was the one who sent Baha’u’llah from the Father, referring to Baha’u’llah as another Comforter and the Spirit of truth.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah was the Comforter and the Spirit of truth. One of the various proofs of that is that Baha’u’llah did exactly what Jesus said the Comforter and Spirit of truth would do.

Referring to Jesus as the Son of Man, Baha’u’llah testified of Jesus and glorified Jesus.

“We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 86

By glorifying and testifying of Jesus Baha’u’llah fulfilled two promises of Jesus.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:13-14 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.


I am sure you know that a lot of atheists say that the Bible can be made to say whatever you want it to say and I believe that is true because the same verses can have more than one meaning.

No, it does not appear to me to be the case Baha’is interpret the scriptures to suit our beliefs in Baha’u’llah’s teachings. The New Testament either fits together with what Baha’u’llah wrote or not. I believe it can be proven that Baha’u’llah was who He claimed to be by reading what Baha’u’llah wrote alongside the New Testament (and the Old Testament). Jesus confirms the station of Baha’u’llah and Baha’u’llah confirms the station of Jesus. Of course the caveat is that Jesus did not refer to Baha’u’llah by name since nobody knew what His name would be back when the New Testament was written.

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

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Since Jesus identified himself as the son of man, then one's presumptions that it refers to Bahaullah, or anyone else for that matter, is unscriptural, and completely flawed. It is also unimportant what one presumes, where God's word is concerned.
Jesus said, “Isaiah aptly prophesied about you hypocrites, as it is written, ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’ You let go of the commandment of God and cling to the tradition of men.” (Mark 7:6-8)

Even Jesus acknowledged that God's word can be twisted to mean whatever one wants it to mean. This is true in every case where the spoken or written word goes forth.
(2 Peter 3:16) However, some things in them are hard to understand, and these things the ignorant and unstable are twisting, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. . .

Factually, they are always consequences to wrong actions, and we have been warned.
They are serious. (Revelation 22:18, 19)

Trailblazer said:

So as I see it we have a choice: We can either believe what the New Testament says or we can believe what Christianity teaches. Both cannot be true since they are contradictory.

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This binary either / or thinking is so characteristic
of fundamentalists!
Of course there are far more reasonable possibilities
than the two you set out.

nPeace said:

Where did you read anything that said Jesus would return to the earth? I don't recall writing it. Did you read it in one of my posts? If so, could you point it out please.
The air where the saints meet the Lord, is not the earth, is it.
Where does Paul contradict Jesus, please?
Jesus said he would come. Paul said he would come. That's what we read in the Bible. That's what the scriptures say.
What you want them to mean, is a different story.


Where does it say that the spirit of Jesus was taken up to heaven, out of their sight?
Telling me what you think a scripture means, without showing me what the scriptures say, is not important, is it?
If I just said, scripture A means X, that is just my words. It's not scripture, and thus unimportant to a Christian.

What was the disciples seeing as Jesus spoke to them?
(Acts 1:3, 4) 3 After he had suffered, he showed himself alive to them by many convincing proofs. He was seen by them throughout 40 days, and he was speaking about the Kingdom of God. 4 While he was meeting with them, he ordered them: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but keep waiting for what the Father has promised, about which you heard from me;

Was it a spirit? Can you describe it please? What were they seeing?

(Acts 1:6) So when they had assembled, they asked him: “Lord, . . .
(Acts 1:9) After he had said these things, while they were looking on, he was lifted up and a cloud caught him up from their sight.


I'm not sure what you mean by the spirit of Jesus. Can you please explain, and do so, from the Bible please, since it is the Bible we are talking about here.


We do? No please.
You think so.
However, I am not following your argument. I'm lost. What does the disciple's death have to do with the coming?
Can you please explain what you are trying to say.


You believe that the title ‘Son of man’ is symbolic of the perfect humanity that Jesus represented
That's what you believe. Now what did Jesus and his followers believe? Surely you are interested in that? Are you?

What about what they said?
That's in the Bible. Can we talk about what's in the Bible?
Perhaps I should ask... do you also decide what to accept from the Bible, and what to discard?
Do you accept these scriptures?

(Matthew 12:40) For just as Joʹnah was in the belly of the huge fish for three days and three nights, so the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights.
(Matthew 16:13-17) 13 When he had come into the region of Caesarea Philippi, Jesus asked his disciples: “Who are men saying the Son of man is?” 14 They said: “Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, and still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 He said to them: “You, though, who do you say I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 In response Jesus said to him: “Happy you are, Simon son of Joʹnah, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father in the heavens did.


The return of the Christ spirit, as promised in the Bible? Where would I find that, exactly... which scripture?
Christians are not looking for Christ's physical body to come floating down on a physical cloud from heaven.
According to Wikipedia...
Views about the nature of Jesus's Second Coming vary among Christian denominations and among individual Christians.
However, nowhere does the article say that any of these denominations have the idea of Jesus' return in a physical body.

In Rosicrucian esoteric Christian teaching... The Second Coming or Advent of the Christ is not in a physical body...
Are you making those claims based on actual fact, or did you assume this. The facts do not support such a claim... Unless I missed them, and you can show me otherwise.

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Come now. You know the bible says whatever the
reader wants it to say.

cataway said:

that's right ,it was not yet time . it was yet in the future that Jesus would be king

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nay......He spoke of Himself as brother and fellow servant

and on each occasion when the topic of a crown arose......so did He
He would then leave

Thief said:

nay......He spoke of Himself as brother and fellow servant

and on each occasion when the topic of a crown arose......so did He
He would then leave

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but what about the here and now ,do you now know that Jesus has been crowned as king ?

cataway said:

but what about the here and now ,do you now know that Jesus has been crowned as king ?

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if He would call me fellow servant....I would be sooooooo relieved
if He calls me brother.....I would be sooooo surprised

but as He was resistant to the play of a crown......
I don't think I will see Him wearing one

Ancient Soul said:

What?

So YOU are the one who's been outside my window the last few nights!!!

POLICE!!!

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if that bothers, wait until you realize I AM in you.

giggles

Audie said:

This binary either / or thinking is so characteristic
of fundamentalists!
Of course there are far more reasonable possibilities
than the two you set out.

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I was referring to the return of Christ as it is depicted in the Bible.
We have other choices but these are two of the choices we have IF we are going to believe in the return of Christ.

I said "So as I see it we have a choice: We can either believe what the New Testament says or we can believe what Christianity teaches. Both cannot be true since they are contradictory."

Of course then we have to figure out what the New Testament means because it does not SAY anything at all.

Another possibility is that the Bible is wrong and we will never see the Son of man in the clouds at all.
Another possibility is that the Bible is just made up stories and there is no God at all....

Endless possibilities. .

Trailblazer said:

In the video David C. Pack says that Jesus will build the Kingdom of God on earth, but Jesus never said He was going to return to earth to build the Kingdom of God.

Those who know anything of the Bible know that Jesus never promised to return, not once in the New Testament. Jesus told His followers to pray for the Kingdom to come, and indicated that it will come because it is God’s Will.

Matthew 6:9-10 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

In the video David C. Pack says “vast numbers today are looking for and desiring Christ’s coming... They do desire it and it’s obvious why. This world has endless problems and is spiraling out of control. People know Christ must come soon or there will be no planet to come to.”

I agree that the Kingdom of God must come soon or there will be no planet to come to.

But desiring something is not going to make it happen. Jesus never promised to return to earth. Jesus said that His work was finished here and He was no more in the world (John 17:4, John 17:11). Moreover, when Jesus died on the cross Jesus said “It is finished” (John 19:30).

Not only that, but Jesus said that His Kingdom is not of this world and Jesus denied being a king (John 18:36-37).

Jesus never said He is bringing a Kingdom at all, not once in the entire New Testament. This really bothers me because I consider it a complete fabrication and a distortion of Jesus’ own words.

In the video David C. Pack says “the apostles knew the tiny nature of the Kingdom at its outset. God’s Kingdom is akin to microscopic when it arrives. It eventually grows into a world government but it doesn’t start that way. Jesus said literally He is bringing an encrypted Kingdom.”

I fully agree that God’s Kingdom will be microscopic when it arrives, but it will eventually grow into a world government. However, Jesus never “literally said” He is bringing an encrypted Kingdom. In fact, Jesus never said that He was bringing in a Kingdom at all.

In the video David C. Pack says “Christ’s Message is clear, God’s Kingdom starts tiny and hidden, and you must find it.”

I fully agree that God’s Kingdom starts tiny and hidden, and you must find it. That indicates that it might already be right under our noses and most people have not found it.

In the video David C. Pack says there are four components to a kingdom

1. Land, property, or territory
2. A ruler or a king
3. People or subjects
4. A system of laws or rules

I agree that there will be four components to the Kingdom of God, but I do not agree there will be one ruler who will rule like an earthly king

In summation, I agree with much of what David C. Pack says on the video. I believe that the Kingdom of God will come to earth in a similar fashion to what he depicted. The salient problem is that Jesus will not be the one bringing the Kingdom of God to earth because that cannot be reconciled to the words Jesus spoke in the New Testament.

So as I see it we have a choice: We can either believe what the New Testament says or we can believe what Christianity teaches. Both cannot be true since they are contradictory.

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The "Kingdom of God" has absolutely nothing to do with any kind of government on this earth. Whether it's inaugurated by Jesus
Himself or anyone else.
The "Kingdom of God", "Kingdom of Heaven", "Kingdom of the Father" verses are all relating to the same thing.
This is the "gospel" (good news) of the "kingdom" that He came to reveal to us.
The gospel (good news) message is hidden from those not meant to "hear" (understand) it......Why ?
Because it's dangerous , forbidden knowledge (forbidden in this world), and it will get you killed if you have a platform large enough to make
a difference in this world by proclaiming it .

He came to tell us that the God of the Old Testament is not the true God, but a usurper, an imposter deity.
Who created this physical universe of matter to trap and enslave us spirits here.
Our real home is with the "Father" ( the True God ), in His "Kingdom" ….which is just a way of saying His "heaven" or "realm".
Where we are perfect divine eternal spirit beings already, and we live in perfect peace and harmony.

All the parables are given to tell us how to get back home.
If you can understand the parables of the "seed", you will unlock ALL the parables that reveal the way home to the "Kingdom of God "
This is why Jesus was crucified (murdered), and why most of His early true followers were as well.

So," whoever has ears to hear, let them hear "

WhyIsThatSo said:

The "Kingdom of God" has absolutely nothing to do with any kind of government on this earth. Whether it's inaugurated by Jesus
Himself or anyone else.
The "Kingdom of God", "Kingdom of Heaven", "Kingdom of the Father" verses are all relating to the same thing.
This is the "gospel" (good news) of the "kingdom" that He came to reveal to us.
The gospel (good news) message is hidden from those not meant to "hear" (understand) it......Why ?
Because it's dangerous , forbidden knowledge (forbidden in this world), and it will get you killed if you have a platform large enough to make
a difference in this world by proclaiming it .

He came to tell us that the God of the OT is not the true God, but a usurper, an imposter deity.
Who created this physical universe of matter to trap and enslave us spirits here.
Our real home is with the Father ( the True God ), in His "Kingdom" ….which is just a way of saying His "heaven" or "realm".
Where we are perfect divine eternal spirit beings already, and we live in perfect peace and harmony.

So, "whoever has ears to hear, let him hear "

Click to expand...

WhyIsThatSo said:

The "Kingdom of God" has absolutely nothing to do with any kind of government on this earth. Whether it's inaugurated by Jesus
Himself or anyone else.
The "Kingdom of God", "Kingdom of Heaven", "Kingdom of the Father" verses are all relating to the same thing.
This is the "gospel" (good news) of the "kingdom" that He came to reveal to us.
The gospel (good news) message is hidden from those not meant to "hear" (understand) it......Why ?
Because it's dangerous , forbidden knowledge (forbidden in this world), and it will get you killed if you have a platform large enough to make
a difference in this world by proclaiming it .

He came to tell us that the God of the Old Testament is not the true God, but a usurper, an imposter deity.
Who created this physical universe of matter to trap and enslave us spirits here.
Our real home is with the "Father" ( the True God ), in His "Kingdom" ….which is just a way of saying His "heaven" or "realm".
Where we are perfect divine eternal spirit beings already, and we live in perfect peace and harmony.

All the parables are given to tell us how to get back home.
If you can understand the parables of the "seed", you will unlock ALL the parables that reveal the way home to the "Kingdom of God "
This is why Jesus was crucified (murdered), and why most of His early true followers were as well.

So," whoever has ears to hear, let them hear "

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Oh, and the opening title for the thread is so appropriate too...…"Not What You Think" ?

One of the first things Jesus (Christ) did after His "temptation" (so called) in the desert was that He went into their local
synagogues on the Sabbath, took the scroll of Isaiah, and quoted these words :

" The Spirit of the Lord is upon me because He has anointed (chosen) me to proclaim Good News to the poor (spiritually),
He has sent me to proclaim that prisoners of war will be released, that the blind (spiritually) will see, and that the oppressed
will be set free" ( Luke 4:18 )

Trailblazer said:

If you do not believe that Jesus will return in person, how do you believe He will return?

What us the scripture that supports that belief?

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Did anyone ever wonder why Jesus did not say “And then shall they see me coming in the clouds with great power and glory?” Not once in the entire NT did Jesus ever say He was coming back to earth. I have discussed this with Christians for years and the verses just are not there. Christians just want it to be Jesus so they interpret verses to mean they are about Jesus. The prophecies have been fulfilled so they cannot be re-fulfilled by Jesus.

Christians cannot answer the following questions:

Why would Jesus keep it a secret if He had been planning to return to earth? Why did Jesus say His work was finished here (John 17:4) and He was no more in the world (John 17:11) if He was planning to return to earth? Why did Jesus say “My kingdom is not of this world” (John 18:36) if He was planning to come back and build a kingdom on earth? When asked if He was a king, why did Jesus say explain to Pilate “To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth” (John 18:37) if Jesus was coming back to rule as a king, as Christians believe? Jesus fulfilled His purpose by bearing witness to the truth about God, so there is no reason for Jesus to return to earth a second time. These verses are clues that tell us that Jesus was never planning to return to earth to rule and build the Kingdom of God, and that means that the Messiah who would accomplish this has to be another man.

The title ‘Son of man’ is symbolic of the perfect humanity that Jesus represented, but it does not apply exclusively to Jesus. It ultimately comes from the Book of Daniel, where it refers to the Messiah.

To explain in brief I believe that the ‘Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven’ means that the return of the Christ Spirit promised in the Bible will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God, and will appear in the form of a human being. The term “heaven” means loftiness and exaltation. Although Jesus was delivered from the womb of His mother, in reality He descended from the heaven of the will of God. Though dwelling on this earth, His true habitation was the realms above. While walking among mortals on earth, Jesus soared in the heaven of the divine presence.

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So Christians interpret their own Scriptures to show how it is Jesus coming back. And Baha'is attempt to show how he isn't the one coming back. Great, but could you show more clearly how the "Return" happened three times since Jesus, Muhammad, The Bab, and then Baha'u'llah? You might as well repeat the one about the "Three Woes" and the "Two Witnesses" since some of the readers here might not have heard them. But, especially for Muhammad, what else do Baha'is point in the Bible to show he is the "Christ", "Messiah" that was promised to come right after Jesus. Then, how after him there was promised the "Twin" manifestations of The Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Trailblazer said:

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

The Son of man was supposed to come in the clouds, but the Son of man was not Jesus, according to Baha'i beliefs. It makes no difference if the Bible says IN or ON -- Jesus ain't coming because Jesus never planned to return to earth (John 17:4, John 17:11)...

But I think there is a good reason why it says IN and not ON. If Jesus was supposed to come ON the clouds everyone would see Him, whereas if Jesus was supposed to come IN the clouds nobody would see Him because He would be hidden in the clouds. I think if you read what "I believe" actually happened you will understand.

To explain in brief, I believe that ‘Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven’ means that the return of the Christ Spirit promised in the Bible will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God, and will appear in the form of a human being. The term “heaven” means loftiness and exaltation. Although Jesus was delivered from the womb of His mother, in reality He descended from the heaven of the will of God. Though dwelling on this earth, His true habitation was the realms above. While walking among mortals on earth, Jesus soared in the heaven of the divine presence.

Baha’u’llah explained the meaning of clouds in The Kitáb-i-Íqán. The term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, the desires of men hindered men from recognizing the return of Christ.

To further explain the teaming of clouds, Baha’is believe that the term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. They signify, in one sense, the annulment of laws, the abrogation of former Dispensations, the repeal of rituals and customs current among men. In another sense, they mean the appearance of a Manifestation of God in the image of mortal man, with such human limitations as eating and drinking, poverty and riches, sleeping and waking, and such other things as cast doubt in the minds of men, and cause them to turn away. These “veils” to recognition of a Manifestation of God are symbolically referred to as “clouds.” Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, these things hinder the souls of men from recognizing the light of the Manifestation of God.

Thus the meaning of clouds is symbolic, not literal. Their judgment was clouded. Christians were looking for the same man Jesus in the same body that resurrected and ascended to appear in the actual physical clouds in the sky with power and great glory, trumpets and angels, but when that did not happen that way they rejected Baha’u’llah. However, if one looks at what happened before, during and after Baha’u’llah appeared there is not one prophecy that cannot be applied to Him.

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What is your interpretation of "The Lamb that was slain" and "The Lamb of God" and similar things used in the Book of Revelation. Of course Christians say that is Jesus, but who do Baha'is say it is referring to? I have heard one Baha'is' guesses, so I like to hear what you think. And, is yours an "official" Baha'i belief or just your personal guesses?