Speculation; Peter is not the rock

exchemist said:

It’s not literal. Jesus did not mean Peter was literally a rock. Durrh.

This is hopeless.

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Christ did not mean Peter was literally the rock upon he will build his church.

the rock is doctrine, understanding, will, and works of The Father in heaven in who gave Peter the increase and understanding to begin with.

Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Joh 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

1Co 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
1Co 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

This is why

Luk 9:49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
Luk 9:50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

Iymus said:

Christ did not mean Peter was literally the rock upon he will build his church.

the rock is doctrine, understanding, will, and works of The Father in heaven in who gave Peter the increase and understanding to begin with.

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The fact is that it's both according to the scriptures.

BTW, you quote the Bible, but who chose the canon of the Bible? Who spread the Gospel even before that?

Clearly, Jesus did not just say "Hey, just go out and do your own thing". Not at all. It says the "Jesus taught with authority", so it should be abundantly clear that he anticipated that this would still have to be done after he was gone, and indeed he gave that authority to the Apostles.

By the end of the first century, the "headquarters" of the Church moves to Antioch and then to Rome itself, and in a letter written by Ignatius of Antioch to Clement of Rome around 100 c.e., Ignatius states that the Bishop of Rome has a special designation because that's where both Peter and Paul were martyred.

So, again, the Church "taught with authority" as Jesus "taught with authority", and the Bishop of Rome, the title of which eventually became called "Pope" centuries later, was in essence the replacement of Peter-- the Rock.

Iymus said:

I am implying that the Father of spirits knew us before we got a body of flesh and became a living soul that is man. I am implying that we are a spirit which predates the body that is man or terrestrial.

1Co 15:38 KJV But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

Heb 12:9 KJV Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

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Your taking that word "spirits" into something else. We've never pre-existed as some spirit. The bible isnt saying that. I think you are.

1 Corin 15 talks about the resurrection. Paul's making a point about seeds on how it has to die before it can live and grow into something more beautiful. It's not saying what you think it means.....

Iymus said:

Peter is not the rock; His understanding that the Son of Man is the Anointed/Christ and Son of The Living God is the rock.

1. Question asked:

Mat 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

2. Correct Answer given:

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

3. Reason Correct Answer Given:

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

4. Result of Correct Answer given

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

5. Speculation on What is the rock or understanding of Peter:

Mar 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
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2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

6. Why is the understanding of Peter; "Christ being the Son of the Living God" the rock ?

Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Joh 19:6 When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him.
Joh 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

Joh 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

7. Can the gates of hell prevail against the rock or Peter's understanding?

1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

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Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

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In the Greek Peter Πέτρος; Petros has a number of meanings and was commonly used to mean a pebble, stone or rock. The scripture where JESUS says "on this rock" I believe Christ was referring to himself (mainly) and Peter who JESUS used to also share His Words through the gospel commission to the be given to the world.

The scriptures teach that God and JESUS represent the true rock *see PSALMS 18:2; PSALMS 18:31; PSALMS 18:46; PSALMS 27:5; PSALMS 28:1; PSALMS 31:2-3; PSALMS 42:9; PSALMS 62:2; PSALMS 62:6-7; PSALMS 71:3; PSALMS 89:26; PSALMS 92:15; PALMS 92:22; ISAIAH 2:10; MATTHEW 7:25; etc etc.

The Rock that Moses smote in the desert (wilderness) that the water of life rushed out from represented Christ *EXODUS 17:6; PSALMS 78:20; PSALMS 105:41; PSLAMS 114:8; ISAIAH 48:21....Leading to.. 1 CORINTHIANS 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST.

God bless

3rdAngel said:

THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST.

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As is Peter since his name "Kephas" in Aramaic actually means "rock". Why do you think Jesus changed Simon's name to that? And why did Jesus start out with "Thou art Kephas, and ...". Peter already know what his new name was because Jesus had already renamed him previously.

metis said:

As is Peter since his name "Kephas" in Aramaic actually means "rock". Why do you think Jesus changed Simon's name to that? And why did Jesus start out with "Thou art Kephas, and ...". Peter already know what his new name was because Jesus had already renamed him previously.

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I did not say Peter does not mean rock. Have another read of the post you are responding to. I posted the main application to Rock in the scriptures is to JESUS and God.

3rdAngel said:

I did not say Peter does not mean rock. Have another read of the post you are responding to. I posted the main application to Rock in the scriptures is to JESUS and God.

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Got it.

Have a great weekend.

moorea944 said:

Your taking that word "spirits" into something else. We've never pre-existed as some spirit. The bible isnt saying that. I think you are.

1 Corin 15 talks about the resurrection. Paul's making a point about seeds on how it has to die before it can live and grow into something more beautiful. It's not saying what you think it means.....

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Book of Jubilees which some refer to as little genesis says God created spirits on the first day.

so the following verses which say spirit of man are mistranslations?

Pro 20:27 The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

also what would be the understanding of spirit in Ecc 11:5?

Ecc 11:5 As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.

3rdAngel said:

In the Greek Peter Πέτρος; Petros has a number of meanings and was commonly used to mean a pebble, stone or rock. The scripture where JESUS says "on this rock" I believe Christ was referring to himself (mainly) and Peter who JESUS used to also share His Words through the gospel commission to the be given to the world.

The scriptures teach that God and JESUS represent the true rock *see PSALMS 18:2; PSALMS 18:31; PSALMS 18:46; PSALMS 27:5; PSALMS 28:1; PSALMS 31:2-3; PSALMS 42:9; PSALMS 62:2; PSALMS 62:6-7; PSALMS 71:3; PSALMS 89:26; PSALMS 92:15; PALMS 92:22; ISAIAH 2:10; MATTHEW 7:25; etc etc.

The Rock that Moses smote in the desert (wilderness) that the water of life rushed out from represented Christ *EXODUS 17:6; PSALMS 78:20; PSALMS 105:41; PSLAMS 114:8; ISAIAH 48:21....Leading to.. 1 CORINTHIANS 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST.

God bless

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I'm looking at God our Father in Heaven.

Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

He may send a saviour or a rock but all things are of him

Neh 9:26 Nevertheless they were disobedient, and rebelled against thee, and cast thy law behind their backs, and slew thy prophets which testified against them to turn them to thee, and they wrought great provocations.
Neh 9:27 Therefore thou deliveredst them into the hand of their enemies, who vexed them: and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, thou heardest them from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies.

Act 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Italian historians agree on the fact that by the time of Nero, certain rebels set Rome on fire and among them there were a couple sympathizing for the Christians....
Which caused to blame the entire sect...all followers...who were, together with other non-Christians fed to the lions in the so called Neronian Circus, which was right below Vatican Hill. So the first Christian blood was shed where now St Peter's Basilica stands.
This arena had an obelisk inside, which still stands in the center of the St Peter's square.
Circus of Nero - Wikipedia

metis said:

The fact is that it's both according to the scriptures.

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it is his understanding; not himself.

The reason I believe this is through listening and studying

Another crucial reason I believe this, is because of the works of those who push this heavily.

Those that push Peter is literally the rock of the church himself use that to push roman catholic supremacy and bring everyone under there power.

God stone rock formed in out of space

Consciousness knows reactions o inside of an atmosphere you never knew creation of rock it is impossible to know consciously

Males are historically liars God science is a contradiction just as it reads

It is how to create destruction

Males have learnt the destruction of form

It was never created by what you study

Males have studied what mass becomes as it is destroyed

Equals =

A science symbol

Today is claimed double slit

Meaning reflected back

Equals can only be what it already is

Consciousness looses sight by oxygen water irradiation brain lag

When you look earth travelled in space mass shift of position

What the radiation effect is on consciousness studying it

Estro Felino said:

So the first Christian blood was shed where now St Peter's Basilica stands.

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first christian blood was shed in Rome and not around Jerusalem or in Antioch? seems like propaganda.

Act 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

Act 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Iymus said:

Book of Jubilees which some refer to as little genesis says God created spirits on the first day.

so the following verses which say spirit of man are mistranslations?

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The Book of Jubilees is part of those books called the pseudepigrapha (meaning “false writings”), and include such books as “The Assumption of Moses,” “The Apocalypse of Ezra” and the “Book of Jubilees.” Some 47 works in all, these books reportedly were written between 200 B.C.E. and 200 C.E, after the death of the apostles.

There is a reason why they are NOT part of the Bible canon.
Prof. James H. Charlesworth of Duke University, states, concerning the pseudepigrapha: “Among the more striking discoveries [in the pseudepigrapha] are a pronounced belief in astrology and a luxuriant angel worship which, in the view of some scholars, borders on polytheism.” If these books are promoting things that other parts of the Bible condemn, then this is the reason why they are not included. Non-canonical books cannot shape our beliefs.

Iymus said:

Pro 20:27 The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

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Or an alternative rendering..."The breath of a man is the lamp of Jehovah, Searching through his innermost being."

The word translated "spirit" in this verse is "nĕshamah" which means "breath". Nothing to do with an invisible spirit. God searches through man whilst he is alive...breathing.

Iymus said:

Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

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The difference between man and animals is that our "breath" returns to God who is in heaven.....and it can be returned to us in the resurrection, re-animating a new body....but animals have no other life other than what they live now....once they go back to the dust of the earth, there is no returning of their spirit .(breath) (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)

Iymus said:

Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

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Or in plain English..."A pronouncement:

“The word of Jehovah concerning Israel,” declares Jehovah,
The One who stretched out the heavens,
Who laid the foundation of the earth,
And who formed the spirit [breath] of man within him."

This has nothing to do with a living spirit of man, created by God that is separate from the body. God gave man his "breath"...it is what made Adam a "soul".

Psalm 146:4 says..."His spirit leaves, he returns to his soil; on that day, his thoughts are lost." (Tanakh)
The word "spirit" here is "ruwach" which also means...."wind, breath, mind, spirit." It "leaves" when the last breath is breathed and the soul dies. No thinking processes survive death, as Ecclesiastes 9:10 makes clear.

I can see that you are a serious student of the Bible but may I suggest that a bit more study in the languages of the Bible might be in order, and that you might rely less on the erroneous translation that you insist on using....it appears to be leading you down pathways that are not in keeping with the Bible's overall message.

Iymus said:

1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

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The spirit of man can also mean his disposition...much like you can say that a horse is "spirited". Humans have a spirit in them too. People can be meek or headstrong.
You tend to see only one meaning to the words used in your archaic Bible. That is a shame because that is not how the languages of the Bible work.

God is a Spirit...he also has Holy Spirit which is the means by which he accomplished his will. It is given in direct proportion to what humans need if they are carrying out part of his purpose. God gave it to Jesus at his baptism, the disciples received it at Pentecost...it is God's power given to humans to accomplish whatever his will dictates.

Iymus said:

also what would be the understanding of spirit in Ecc 11:5?

Ecc 11:5 As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.

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Again in plain English....

"Just as you do not know how the spirit operates in the bones of the child inside a pregnant woman, so you do not know the work of the true God, who does all things."

When Solomon wrote that, no man knew how the body of an infant formed in its mother's womb.....but they knew that humans and in fact all creation were a product of God's spirit.....just as they were ignorant of those facts back then, so humans even today have no idea how God works his wonders in his own creation....and how the outworking of his original purpose for man and this earth will play out....but its all there in the Bible if we don't allow our pre-conceived ideas get in the way.

Iymus said:

i'm looking at the spiritual aspect.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

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I know that you are, and I acknowledge your belief.
I just base my belief upon my historical studies and my interpretation of the historical balance of probabilities, that's all.

Iymus said:

Book of Jubilees which some refer to as little genesis says God created spirits on the first day.

so the following verses which say spirit of man are mistranslations?

Pro 20:27 The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

also what would be the understanding of spirit in Ecc 11:5?

Ecc 11:5 As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.

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Does your church teach the Book of Jubilees?

sooda said:

Does your church teach the Book of Jubilees?

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Church I learned from teach the books that are in KJV 1611 which includes Old Testament, New Testament, and Apocrypha.

Also information has been brought forth from Book of Enoch and Book of Jasher along with Book of Jubilees which is said to be known as little genesis.

I suspect with solid foundation in the Torah, Tanakh, and Gospel of Christ one may be able to glean information in other Jewish writings .

Iymus said:

Church I learned from teach the books that are in KJV 1611 which includes Old Testament, New Testament, and Apocrypha.

Also information has been brought forth from Book of Enoch and Book of Jasher along with Book of Jubilees which is said to be known as little genesis.

I suspect with solid foundation in the Torah, Tanakh, and Gospel of Christ one may be able to glean information in other Jewish writings .

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When were Jasher and the book of Jubilees written?

The Book of Enoch Index
The Book of Enoch Index
The Book of Enoch, written during the second century B.C.E., is one of the most important non-canonical apocryphal works, and probably had a huge influence on …

Deeje said:

The Book of Jubilees is part of those books called the pseudepigrapha (meaning “false writings”)

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mean you would not accept it in order to prove validity of a spirit of man. Got following from biblehub which would you accept?

Gen 2:7 KJV And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Young's Literal Translation
And Jehovah God formeth the man -- dust from the ground, and breatheth into his nostrils breath of life, and the man becometh a living creature.

Good News Translation
Then the LORD God took some soil from the ground and formed a man out of it; he breathed life-giving breath into his nostrils and the man began to live.

New International Version
Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.