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The Great Deception of Christianity - Departing the Faith (the Word)

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Revelation - Bible Study Lessons
www.bible-study-lessons.com/Revelation-002.html
The Futurists - Scofield. The Futurist interpretation of the book of Revelation is the most popular interpretation today. It is used by groups including Baptists, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, and the Armstrong Church of God. Futurists apply …

Soda, I think what CT is triyng to say is that your website information is in error again. You may need to do some more research. )

Seventh-day Adventist eschatology

Biblical basis and perspectives

Seventh-day Adventism derives its eschatological teachings in large part from its interpretation of the apocalyptic Bible books of Daniel and Revelation, as well as Jesus' end-times sermon found in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. Mainstream Adventism interprets biblical prophecies using the historicist method,[3] which utilises the day-year principle; some of the prophecies of Revelation are yet to be fulfilled. (Wiki)

...........

Historicism (Christianity)

Historicists believe that prophetic interpretation reveals the entire course of history of the church from the writing of the Book of Daniel, some centuries before the close of the 1st century, to the end of time.[4] Historicist interpretations have been criticized for inconsistencies, conjectures, and speculations and historicist readings of the Book of Revelation have been revised as new events occur and new figures emerge on the world scene.[5]

Historicism was the belief held by the majority of the Protestant Reformers, including Martin Luther, John Calvin, Thomas Cranmer, and others including John Thomas, John Knox, and Cotton Mather. The Catholic church tried to counter it with preterism and Futurism during the Counter-Reformation. [6][page needed][7] This alternate view served to bolster the Catholic Church's position against attacks by Protestants,[8][9] and is viewed as a Catholic defense against the Protestant Historicist view which identified the Roman Catholic Church as a persecuting apostasy and the Pope with the antichrist.[9]

One of the most influential aspects of the Protestant historicist paradigm was the speculation that the Pope could be the antichrist. Martin Luther wrote this view, which was not novel, into the Smalcald Articles of 1537. It was then widely popularized in the 16th century, via sermons and drama, books and broadside publication.[10] Jesuit commentators developed alternate approaches that would later become known as preterism and futurism, and applied them to apocalyptic literature;[11][12] Francisco Ribera[13] developed a form of futurism (1590), and Luis de Alcazar a form of preterism, at the same period.[14][15][16]

The historicist approach has been used in attempts to predict the date of the end of the world. An example in post-Reformation Britain is in the works of Charles Wesley, who predicted that the end of the world would occur in 1794, based on his analysis of the Book of Revelation.[citation needed] Adam Clarke, whose commentary was published in 1831, proposed a possible date of 2015 for the end of the papal power.[17]

In 19th-century America, William Miller proposed that the end of the world would occur on October 22, 1844, based on a historicist model used with Daniel 8:14. Miller's historicist approach to the Book of Daniel spawned a national movement in the United States known as Millerism. After the Great Disappointment some of the Millerites eventually organized
the Seventh-day Adventist Church, which continues to maintain a historicist reading of biblical prophecy as essential to its
eschatology. (Wiki: Historicism (Christianity)

Few different sources above. Your website link simply got is facts wrong. Do your reseach.

Hope this helps :)
 
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sooda

Veteran Member
Soda, I think what CT is triyng to say is that your website information is in error again. You may need to do some more research. )

Seventh-day Adventist eschatology

Biblical basis and perspectives

Seventh-day Adventism derives its eschatological teachings in large part from its interpretation of the apocalyptic Bible books of Daniel and Revelation, as well as Jesus' end-times sermon found in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. Mainstream Adventism interprets biblical prophecies using the historicist method,[3] which utilises the day-year principle; some of the prophecies of Revelation are yet to be fulfilled. (Wiki)

...........

Historicism (Christianity)

Historicists believe that prophetic interpretation reveals the entire course of history of the church from the writing of the Book of Daniel, some centuries before the close of the 1st century, to the end of time.[4] Historicist interpretations have been criticized for inconsistencies, conjectures, and speculations and historicist readings of the Book of Revelation have been revised as new events occur and new figures emerge on the world scene.[5]

Historicism was the belief held by the majority of the Protestant Reformers, including Martin Luther, John Calvin, Thomas Cranmer, and others including John Thomas, John Knox, and Cotton Mather. The Catholic church tried to counter it with preterism and Futurismduring the Counter-Reformation. [6][page needed][7] This alternate view served to bolster the Catholic Church's position against attacks by Protestants,[8][9] and is viewed as a Catholic defense against the Protestant Historicist view which identified the Roman Catholic Church as a persecuting apostasy and the Pope with the antichrist.[9]

One of the most influential aspects of the Protestant historicist paradigm was the speculation that the Pope could be the antichrist. Martin Luther wrote this view, which was not novel, into the Smalcald Articles of 1537. It was then widely popularized in the 16th century, via sermons and drama, books and broadside publication.[10] Jesuit commentators developed alternate approaches that would later become known as preterism and futurism, and applied them to apocalyptic literature;[11][12] Francisco Ribera[13] developed a form of futurism (1590), and Luis de Alcazar a form of preterism, at the same period.[14][15][16]

The historicist approach has been used in attempts to predict the date of the end of the world. An example in post-Reformation Britain is in the works of Charles Wesley, who predicted that the end of the world would occur in 1794, based on his analysis of the Book of Revelation.[citation needed] Adam Clarke, whose commentary was published in 1831, proposed a possible date of 2015 for the end of the papal power.[17]

In 19th-century America, William Miller proposed that the end of the world would occur on October 22, 1844, based on a historicist model used with Daniel 8:14. Miller's historicist approach to the Book of Daniel spawned a national movement in the United States known as Millerism. After the Great Disappointment some of the Millerites eventually organized
the Seventh-day Adventist Church, which continues to maintain a historicist reading of biblical prophecy as essential to its
eschatology. (Wiki: Historicism (Christianity)

Few different sources above. Your website link simply got is facts wrong. Do your reseach.

Hope this helps :)

From your link:

In 19th-century America, William Miller proposed that the end of the world would occur on October 22, 1844, based on a historicist model used with Daniel 8:14. Miller's historicist approach to the Book of Daniel spawned a national movement in the United States known as Millerism. After the Great Disappointment some of the Millerites eventually organized the Seventh-day Adventist Church,[18] which continues to maintain a historicist reading of biblical prophecy as essential to its eschatology.[19] Millerites also formed other Adventist bodies, including the one that spawned the Watch Tower movement, better known as Jehovah's Witnesses, who hold to their own unique historicist interpretations of Bible prophecy.[20]

(I think the SDA isn't true to the historicist view.. If they were, they would understand the Book of Daniel is not prophecy. The real puzzle is a whole website devoted to trashing the Catholic Church.)
 
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3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
From your link:

In 19th-century America, William Miller proposed that the end of the world would occur on October 22, 1844, based on a historicist model used with Daniel 8:14. Miller's historicist approach to the Book of Daniel spawned a national movement in the United States known as Millerism. After the Great Disappointment some of the Millerites eventually organized the Seventh-day Adventist Church,[18] which continues to maintain a historicist reading of biblical prophecy as essential to its eschatology.[19] Millerites also formed other Adventist bodies, including the one that spawned the Watch Tower movement, better known as Jehovah's Witnesses, who hold to their own unique historicist interpretations of Bible prophecy.[20]

(I think the SDA isn't true to the historist view.. If they were, they would understand the Book of Daniel is not prophecy. The read puzzle is a whole website devoted to trashing the Catholic Church.)

So how does what you have posted from my link have to do with you not being wrong and posting information about Futurism that was not true to our other brother @coconut theology earlier? -Nothing! Goodness Soda you got your facts wrong just admit it. If you believe SDA are not true to Historicist teachings then you did not read the linked sources that state the opposite. You quoting you does not make it true. I believe you owe the other brother an apology. Ok I only provided those links as a help to you because I believed what you were posting was not true. Go do your research before posting. You seem to be good at finding website links that provide false information. I only posted those liks as a help. Up to you. :)
 
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sooda

Veteran Member
So how does what you have posted from my link have to do with you not being wrong and posting information about Futurism that was not true to our other brother @coconut theology earlier? -Nothing! Goodness Soda you got your facts wrong just admit it. If you believe SDA are not true to Historicist teachings then you did not read the linked sources that state the opposite. You quoting you does not make it true. I believe you owe the other brother an apology. Ok I only provided those links as a help to you because I believed what you were posting was not true. Go do your research before posting. You seem to be good at finding website links that provide false information. I only posted those liks as a help. Up to you. :)

Historically there is NO truth to Genesis and Exodus.. so NO I don't think SDA take a historist view of scripture.
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Historically there is NO truth to Genesis and Exodus.. so NO I don't think SDA take a historist view of scripture.
I see. So you do not believe in the bible (TORAH). Well that explains a lot. Thank you for sharing but that is not my view. May I ask how can you claim to be "christian" if you do not believe in the bible or that it is God's Word when the scriptures teach without faith it is impossible to please God *HEBREWS 11:6 and what so ever is not of faith is sin *ROMANS 14:23 as faith only comes from the Word of God *ROMANS 10:17. Now if the scriptures teach that salvation only comes by faith in God's Word and you do not believe God's Word how can you have salvation and profess "christianity"? This is only an honest question as I am trying to understand you better. Look forward to your reply. :)
 
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sooda

Veteran Member
Bib
I see. So you do not believe in the bible (TORAH). Well that explains a lot. Thank you for sharing but that is not my view. May I ask how can you claim to be "christian" if you do not believe in the bible or that it is God's Word when the scriptures teach without faith it is impossible to please God *HEBREWS 11:6 and what so ever is not of faith is sin *ROMANS 14:23 as faith only comes from the Word of God *ROMANS 10:17. Now if the scriptures teach that salvation only comes by faith in God's Word and you do not believe God's Word how can you have salvation and profess "christianity" This is only an honest question as I am trying to understand you better. Look forward to your reply. :)


Didactic literature is not history. Jews know that. Martin Luther claimed the Pope was the antichrist and they were off to the races with their political agendas.

Didn't you create BeastMark that is totally dedicated to trashing the Catholic Church? What does that say about SDA?

Meanwhile,

The Book of Daniel | Old Testament
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Bib Didactic literature is not history. Jews know that. Martin Luther claimed the Pope was the antichrist and they were off to the races with their political agendas. Didn't you create BeastMark that is totally dedicated to trashing the Catholic Church? What does that say about SDA Meanwhile,
Sorry I do not know any JEWS that do not believe the TORAH and I believe it is the scriptures that teach that the Roman Catholic Church is MYSTERTY BABYLON THE GREAT HARLOT AND MOTHER OF HARLOTS (Revelation 17:2-6; Revelation 18:1-5 as shown in this OP, not me. It is also not the people as God is calling out his people from all man made teachings and traditions that lead his people away from His Word.

............

Did you want to answer the questions in the post you are quoting from now? If you do not want to perhaps you do not have to. You can think about it further at home. Just let me know.
3rdAngel said: I see. So you do not believe in the bible (TORAH). Well that explains a lot. Thank you for sharing but that is not my view. May I ask how can you claim to be "christian" if you do not believe in the bible or that it is God's Word when the scriptures teach without faith it is impossible to please God *HEBREWS 11:6 and what so ever is not of faith is sin *ROMANS 14:23 as faith only comes from the Word of God *ROMANS 10:17. Now if the scriptures teach that salvation only comes by faith in God's Word and you do not believe God's Word how can you have salvation and profess "christianity"?

Nice talking to you. :)
 
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sooda

Veteran Member
Sorry I do not know any JEWS that do not believe the TORAH and I believe it is the scriptures that teach that the Roman Catholic Church is MYSTERTY BABYLON THE GREAT HARLOT AND MOTHER OF HARLOTS (Revelation 17:2-6; Revelation 18:1-5 as shown in this OP, not me. It is also not the people as God is calling out his people from all man made teachings and traditions that lead his people away from His Word.

............

Did you want to answer the questions in the post you are quoting from now? If you do not want to perhaps you do not have to. You can think about it further at home. Just let me know.


Nice talking to you. :)

I didn't say they don't believe the Torah.. I said they don't believe its literal history.

Paul and all the disciples believed Jesus would be returning during their lifetime.. How did they ALL get it wrong? What do you think 1st and 2nd Thessalonians is about????
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Does anyone understand God or His message completely in any way that all can know that understanding is real?

I appreciate that you have knowledge and experience I do not and I would not claim to understand better than you do based on belief in my own superioiry.
Certainly the sacred texts are rich and full -- you can spend a life time studying them, and then read them again and learn something new.

This still doesn't negate the fact that there is a correct meaning. Christians read the Tanakh through tinted glasses that cause them to misinterpret what is on the page. That's not what God wants.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The true Christian, understands all things:

1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.​

Yet, those who refuse the real Jesus, do not yet know what they ought to know:

2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.​
Oh I don't buy this baloney at all. I think it's just arrogance. And you can quote the Christian scriptures all day long to me -- they are not authoritative for me.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
And what I have stated to you in so many words, is, is that you which claim "Judaism", do not even practice what its written in the TaNaKh regarding real 'Judaism', since 'you' are missing the Temple, The Ark of the Covenant, the High Priest, and so many other things.
And what I have stated to you over and agaiin, is that the Tanakh provides for what to do when those things are missing. It is not the ideal. But Judaism can still function without the temple, etc., per the sacred texts. God provides

So much for your understanding of "real Judaism."
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
I didn't say they don't believe the Torah.. I said they don't believe its literal history. Paul and all the disciples believed Jesus would be returning during their lifetime.. How did they ALL get it wrong? What do you think 1st and 2nd Thessalonians is about????

Nonsense. Please show me a single scripture that says that Paul believed JESUS was going to return in his lifetime. There is none as the scriptures teach no man knows the day or the hour. Exodus and Genesis is a part of the Torah. You said historically you do not believe GENESIS and EXODUS and that JEWS do not believe GENESIS and EXODUS was historical. That is simply a false and misleading statement as many JEWS do indeed believe that GENESIS and EXODUS are historical as there are also those who do not.

Did you want to answer the questions in the post you are quoting from now? If you do not want to perhaps you do not have to. You can think about it further at home. Just let me know.
3rdAngel said: May I ask how can you claim to be "christian" if you do not believe in the bible or that it is God's Word when the scriptures teach without faith it is impossible to please God *HEBREWS 11:6 and what so ever is not of faith is sin *ROMANS 14:23 as faith only comes from the Word of God *ROMANS 10:17. Now if the scriptures teach that salvation only comes by faith in God's Word and you do not believe God's Word how can you have salvation and profess "christianity"?
Could you please let me know if you wish to answer my question or not?

If you do not wish to I will stop asking you. Just say so :)
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Nonsense. Please show me a single scripture that says that Paul believed JESUS was going to return in his lifetime. There is none as the scriptures teach no man knows the day or the hour. Exodus and Genesis is a part of the Torah. You said historically you do not believe GENESIS and EXODUS and that JEWS do not believe GENESIS and EXODUS was historical. That is simply a false and misleading statement as many JEWS do indeed believe that GENESIS and EXODUS are historical as there are also those who do not.

Did you want to answer the questions in the post you are quoting from now? If you do not want to perhaps you do not have to. You can think about it further at home. Just let me know.

Could you please let me know if you wish to answer my question or not?

If you do not wish to I will stop asking you. Just say so :)

I have already posted a link TWICE about Thessalonians and Paul.
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
I have already posted a link TWICE about Thessalonians and Paul.

Actually no you did not. You simply said...

Paul and all the disciples believed Jesus would be returning during their lifetime.. How did they ALL get it wrong? What do you think 1st and 2nd Thessalonians is about????

You posted no links or scripture references. That is why I asked you directly to show me where is the scripture that says Paul was expecting JESUS to return in his lifetime because there is no scripture. I guess this is the same reason why you refuse to respond to the question I have asked you three time now about faith, God's Word and salvation according to the scriptures. You have no answer do you.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Actually no you did not. You simply said...



You posted no links or scripture references. That is why I asked you directly to show me where is the scripture that says Paul was expecting JESUS to return in his lifetime because there is no scripture. I guess this is the same reason why you refuse to respond to the question I have asked you three time now about faith, God's Word and salvation according to the scriptures. You have no answer do you.


1 and 2 Thessalonians - cliffsnotes.com
https://www.cliffsnotes.com/literature/n/new-testament-of-the-bible/summary-and...
The first letter — 1 Thessalonians — was written to a community of believers who had been Christians for only a short period of time, probably no more than a few months. We learn from the Book of Acts that during Paul's stay in the city of Thessalonica, he preached in a …
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
1 and 2 Thessalonians - cliffsnotes.com
https://www.cliffsnotes.com/literature/n/new-testament-of-the-bible/summary-and...
The first letter — 1 Thessalonians — was written to a community of believers who had been Christians for only a short period of time, probably no more than a few months. We learn from the Book of Acts that during Paul's stay in the city of Thessalonica, he preached in a …

Sooo...did you read this link you posted and why did you post this here o_O? Do you have a scripture yet that you claim Paul said JESUS was going to return in his lifetime? - Nope!
 
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sooda

Veteran Member
Sooo...did you read this link you posted and why did you post this here o_O? Do you have a scripture yet that you claim Paul said JESUS was going to return in his lifetime? - Nope!


“For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” – Mt. 16:27,28

“Tell us, when will these things be (the destruction of the temple), and what will be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age? . . . This generation will not pass away until all of these things take place.” – Mt. 24:3,34

“Behold, I am coming soon! (tachu – quickly, speedily (without delay)) Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book.” – Rev. 22:7,12,20

“You (Chief Priests and Sanhedrin) shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven.” – Mt. 26:64

“The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to make known to his servants the things which must shortly (en tachos – lit.: in speed, usages: quickly, shortly, soon, speedily) come to pass.” – Rev. 1:1

“Blessed is he that reads . . . hears . . . and keeps the things written (in this prophecy), for the time is at hand.” (eggus – near, of place or position). – Rev. 1:3

“The world is passing away . . . it is the last hour (eschatos ) . . . Even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour.” – 1 Jn. 2:17-18

“The time is short (sustello – to draw together, hence, to wrap up), from now on it would be wise for those who have wives to be as if they had them not.” – 1 Cor. 7:29

“And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.” – Rom. 13:11-12

“The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.” – Rom. 16:20

“Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another– and all the more as you see the Day approaching. . . . You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. For in just a very little while, “He who is coming will come and will not delay.”” – Heb. 10:25,36-37
 

sooda

Veteran Member
“Christ was manifest in these last times.” (eschatos – extreme, last in time, place, or space) – 1 Pet. 1:20

“The end of all things is at hand.” (eggizo – to come or bring near, to join one thing to another, to approach) – 1 Pet. 4:7

“It is time for judgment to begin.” – 1 Pet. 4:17
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
“Christ was manifest in these last times.” (eschatos – extreme, last in time, place, or space) – 1 Pet. 1:20

“The end of all things is at hand.” (eggizo – to come or bring near, to join one thing to another, to approach) – 1 Pet. 4:7

“It is time for judgment to begin.” – 1 Pet. 4:17

Ok so we are going from Paul as you claimed earlier to Peter. You do know that the scriptures teach no man knows the day or the hour right? So where in Peter does it say that Peter would be alive when JESUS returned? ...... waiting :)
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Ok so we are going from Paul as you claimed earlier to Peter. You do know that the scriptures teach no man knows the day or the hour right? So where in Peter does it say that Peter would be alive when JESUS returned? ...... waiting :)

Obviously Paul believed it would be soon and within his lifetime according to Romans, Hebrews, Corinthians and Thessalonians.

In Revelation it says "soon".
 
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