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Question for Americans on the Left

Thanda

Thanda

Well-Known Member
Evangelicalhumanist said:
I wonder if you've noticed that males and females are born in approximately the same proportion -- close to (but not quite) 50/50.

Now, if men are allowed multiple wives, but wives are not allowed multiple husbands, and assuming we start from your grandfather's 8 wives, how many men on earth could expect to be married -- and how many would not be able to find any females at all because they're all part of somebody else's harem?

And here's something else to think about: a woman can satisfy a lot more men than any man can satisfy women.

Try to get rid of the myths and ignorance of the past, and start thinking like a human being living in a complex world -- a world that will require us all to work together to keep being a world that supports us. Otherwise, we'll leave the whole thing to the cockroaches, and nobody will care how many wives your grandfather had.
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Well let's go at that. In the first place the similarity in the number of men and women is mostly due to the greater number of males that are born. Which is quickly counteracted by the higher mortality rates of boys so that by the time everyone is an adult there are more women than men.

Secondly, about satisfaction: a woman can satisfy more men right until she doesn't feel like having any sex at all because she's pregnant with one of their children. The other men must now figure out what to do with themselves while waiting for her to give birth and recover.
Additionally the birth rate would plummet if you 3 men were waiting around for one woman to give birth. And no, the birthrate plummeting is not a good thing, just ask Japan.

As for men missing out on women because 1 man can have many - this is largely already true today. Successful/attractive men already have multiple women. They just Don't marry them and they usually leave them to raise their children by themselves. If this is a better deal in your mind then I don't know what to say to you

What myths and ignorance do you think I have? Why do myths and ignorance immediately come to mind when someone is speaking for plural marriage. And why does this complex world you imagine have room for all types of people but those who wish to be polygamous.
 
Cooky

Cooky

Veteran Member
Saint Frankenstein said:
Those fundie Mormon sects are cults that treat girls and women like chattel and they're subjected to a large amount of abuse and fear. They deserve to be broken up but I don't think the children should be separated from their mothers.
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I disagree. You can't say you know how every Mormon family is or operates. That seems bigoted.
 
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Sunstone

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
@Thanda, if you want to discuss polygamy, why don't you at first familiarize yourself with the issues involved in it? I mean before you take sides? And before you smear everyone on the Left with the same label? Are you afraid of learning?
 
Cooky

Cooky

Veteran Member
Sunstone said:
@Thanda, if you want to discuss polygamy, why don't you at first familiarize yourself with the issues involved in it? I mean before you take sides? And before you smear everyone on the Left with the same label? Are you afraid of learning?
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It does seem true though, that the left prefers to tend to the rights of immigrants before the rights of polygamous, American families.

...Don't you think?
 
Thanda

Thanda

Well-Known Member
sun rise said:
Polygamy has been illegal in the US for over 100 years. There were some in recent times who predicted that changing laws on gay marriage would inevitably lead to changing laws on polygamy. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/are-...com/entry/are-polygamy-bans-unconst_b_4454076

Personally I think that the government should not be involved in regulating the actions of consenting adults so long as no one is harmed.
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My question still stands - I am not asking why those on the left have a problem with polygamous marriages. My question was, why are they not as concerned about polygamuos families being torn apart as they are about foreign families being torn apart and about gay marriages being inhibited.
 
Thanda

Thanda

Well-Known Member
Sunstone said:
@Thanda, if you want to discuss polygamy, why don't you at first familiarize yourself with the issues involved in it? I mean before you take sides? And before you smear everyone on the Left with the same label? Are you afraid of learning?
Click to expand...


Why would I need to learn since I literally grew up in it. Not only that my barber when I was a young man was polygamous. Polygamy is not this secret society in my country. Most people don't do it but those who do live freely among everyone.

So I'm not sure what issues you imagine exist with polygamous families. Perhaps it is you who needs to take time to learn.
 
Thanda

Thanda

Well-Known Member
Sunstone said:
@Thanda, if you want to discuss polygamy, why don't you at first familiarize yourself with the issues involved in it? I mean before you take sides? And before you smear everyone on the Left with the same label? Are you afraid of learning?
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Oh, and one more thing - I am not taking sides between the american left and the american right. There are parts of the ideolgies of each group with which I agree and disagree. This post in particular was about what appears to me to be a case of hypocrisy that I noticed on the left.
 
Thanda

Thanda

Well-Known Member
pcarl said:
First of all polygamy is against the law in the US. And right or wrong this is what comes to mind Warren Jeffs - Wikipedia
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I know it's against the law - it is also against the law to come into the US without permission. Why is there outrage (from the left) when foreign families are torn apart by the US government as a result of their breaking the law while there is silence from the same group when their fellow American's families are being torn apart?
 
Thanda

Thanda

Well-Known Member
pcarl said:
What's the difference between sister wives belonging to one man, and a man having a harem? Admittedly, much may be linked to stereotypes that are unfair. Are the additional wives progressively younger than initial wife, as the number of women are added to his wives? Would you be so approving of a woman with several husbands.
Granted the birth rate would certainly be 'lower'.
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I'm not sure why I would need to distinguish between a polygamous marriage and a harem. Is a harem something evil in your mind? Perhaps I have the wrong definition so you must assist me.

Also you are very correct that you are your line of thinking is steeped in stereotypes. I would suggest you research more into all the other polygamous cultures (note that not everyone is polygamous in polygamous cultures like mine - just those who want to be. Most even of my own people choose not to do it).

Furthermore, yes the new wife is usually younger. There are a few reason for this. One of them is that as you go up in age a woman is more likely to be marriage. So it is less likely to find a 35 year-old single woman as you are to find a 25 year-old one. Secondly a person who marries again usually wishes for more children. Again more likely with a younger wife than an older one.

As an aside, my mother was the second wife. However she was older (significantly so) than the first.

Concerning my approval of a woman having a number of husbands: I propose that each be permitted to do what they wish. However I think there is a reason why this scenario has never really caught on. And it has to with evolution and human survival - your last sentence reveals this very fact.
 
Thanda

Thanda

Well-Known Member
Daemon Sophic said:
Hi @Thanda
First off, while correctly noting that those “on the left” in the US tend to support gay and lesbian issues, I would venture that it is almost invariably the right wing of the US population who actively and consistently seek to interfere with the personal relationships and private lives of the populous.

That said, as others have noted here, while many people in today’s age have no problems with polyamorous relationships between consenting adults, there has (historically and currently) been a number of polygymous “consenting” marriages between men and underage girls, which, in my opinion, requires traumatic neutering of the man with a rusty fork.
Those are the only times “the left” desire laws to prevent them.
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Has it ever crossed your mind that, like with the alcohol prohibition, banning something tends to put it underground and this leaves room for the more criminal elements in society to take control over it?

So do you not think that if these polygamous communities were unbanned and could come out of obscurity - and as I mentioned in my OP that they could cease to fear the outside world - that they would find it much easier to report abusive behaviour and ensure that the polygamous marriages are fully consensual?
 
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ImmortalFlame

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Thanda said:
I'm a South African and have just been watching a show "sister wives". One of the wives mentions that growing up they were always told to be weary of the outside world - the outside world being those outside of their polygamous communities.

She goes on to say that they were told to fear the outsiders becuase they might report their father for polygamy and he would be jailed and their family would be torn apart. In fact she tells that her grandfather had had exactly that happen to him and their family had been torn apart and his children hadn't been able to see each other for years.

So my question is, why does the left in the US seem so concerned about foreign families being torn apart for (illegally) trying to come to the US but there seems to not be the same level of concern about your own countrymen whose families are similarly torn apart. Whose only crime is being a family.
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In my experience, there are a lot of people on the left who don't actually see a problem with polygamy, and few who come out in support in such bans. Can you cite any specific examples?
 
Thanda

Thanda

Well-Known Member
ImmortalFlame said:
In my experience, there are a lot of people on the left who don't actually see a problem with polygamy, and few who come out in support in such bans. Can you cite any specific examples?
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You need to read the OP carefully. I'm not taking issue with the left seeing a problem with polygamy (although if you just take a cursory look at some of the replies in this very thread you'll certainly see that many have a lot of prejudice and bias against it - but that is a matter for another day). What I am taking issue with is the left's outrage at hearing that foreign families are being torn apart at the border while remaining quite mute about families of fellow americans who are torn apart or driven into hiding because of polygamy.
 
Evangelicalhumanist

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Thanda said:
Well let's go at that. In the first place the similarity in the number of men and women is mostly due to the greater number of males that are born. Which is quickly counteracted by the higher mortality rates of boys so that by the time everyone is an adult there are more women than men.

Secondly, about satisfaction: a woman can satisfy more men right until she doesn't feel like having any sex at all because she's pregnant with one of their children. The other men must now figure out what to do with themselves while waiting for her to give birth and recover.
Additionally the birth rate would plummet if you 3 men were waiting around for one woman to give birth. And no, the birthrate plummeting is not a good thing, just ask Japan.

As for men missing out on women because 1 man can have many - this is largely already true today. Successful/attractive men already have multiple women. They just Don't marry them and they usually leave them to raise their children by themselves. If this is a better deal in your mind then I don't know what to say to you

What myths and ignorance do you think I have? Why do myths and ignorance immediately come to mind when someone is speaking for plural marriage. And why does this complex world you imagine have room for all types of people but those who wish to be polygamous.
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Check this out "The Lost Boys"

"Up to 1,000 teenage boys have been separated from their parents and thrown out of their communities by a polygamous sect to make more young women available for older men, Utah officials claim.

Many of these "Lost Boys", some as young as 13, have simply been dumped on the side of the road in Arizona and Utah, by the leaders of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (FLDS), and told they will never see their families again or go to heaven."

Now tell me -- is that what you think should happen to children as young as 13? If it is, then I don't think I want to converse with you further. I prefer to converse with civilized folk.
 
Thanda

Thanda

Well-Known Member
Evangelicalhumanist said:
Check this out "The Lost Boys"

"Up to 1,000 teenage boys have been separated from their parents and thrown out of their communities by a polygamous sect to make more young women available for older men, Utah officials claim.

Many of these "Lost Boys", some as young as 13, have simply been dumped on the side of the road in Arizona and Utah, by the leaders of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (FLDS), and told they will never see their families again or go to heaven."

Now tell me -- is that what you think should happen to children as young as 13? If it is, then I don't think I want to converse with you further. I prefer to converse with civilized folk.
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Now the question you need to ask yourself is this - do things like this happen because that's what always happens when there is polygamy? As someone who lives in a country where polygamy's completely legal I can tell you it's a big fat no. So now this requires a bit of introspection as Americans. Why are you having issues with polygamous communities that are not had by other countries?

Well let me proffer an answer. Perhaps the problem is that America's ban on polygamy has necessitated the rise of polygamous communities in the first place. You see while there is polygamy in my country there are no polygamous communities as such. And as with most countries that allow polygamy very few people actually choose to be polygamous. And as a result there is never an issue of "running out of women".
 
P

pearl

Well-Known Member
Thanda said:
Furthermore, yes the new wife is usually younger. There are a few reason for this. One of them is that as you go up in age a woman is more likely to be marriage. So it is less likely to find a 35 year-old single woman as you are to find a 25 year-old one. Secondly a person who marries again usually wishes for more children. Again more likely with a younger wife than an older one.
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We have totally a different concept on the meaning of marriage, two people faithful to one another for life.
 
Cooky

Cooky

Veteran Member
pcarl said:
We have totally a different concept on the meaning of marriage, two people faithful to one another for life.
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In the old testament, God allowed the Jews to have polygamous relationships for a time. So we know it's not *evil*. It's just not *preferred*.

Genesis 4:19
Genesis 29:30
Genesis 28:9
Genesis 36:13
Genesis 36:14
2 Samuel 12:7-8
2 Samuel 5:13
1 Kings 11:1-3
 
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