How do Christians view Judaism?

@Harel13 Now I’m thinking of part of the relationship between Judaism and Christianity as Judaism taking in part of the revelation of Jesus without recognizing Him as a prophet, and Christianity creating a new religion around part of it, making Him into a god like the gods of mythology.

Now I’m thinking that Jews who follow the best teachings of the rabbis could be following Jesus as well as any Christians are.

Now I’m thinking that the teachings of the rabbis might be evidence that there really was such a person as the Jesus that we see in the gospel stories.

Well in america, it seems like they generally see the practice of the religion as fulfilling a purpose of some kind, in sort of an adjunct sense or even an essential one. For although they think christianity is 'right' and judaism is 'wrong,' judaism still needs to exist in order to somehow further the course of christianity. Perhaps the christians actually want the temple to be rebuilt for example, among other particulars I'm sure, in order to surprisingly (to the practitioners of judaism) bring about their conception of the 'last days.' Because of this, my sense is that they don't actually feel the need to convert all jews, since they are doing all these other things to supposedly further the christian timeline, though perhaps they think they can get 'bonus points' if they do sometimes. I'm sure that throughout history though, the christians must not have always had this sort of symbiotic view they've arrived at

pcarl said:

Unfortunately much of the stereotyping stems from a simplistic reading of Scripture. We are so fortunate as Catholics to have excellent biblical scholars and a Church that listens and corrects.

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It also comes from deliberate misrepresentation in the scriptures themselves. Do not forget that early Christianity was looking for recruits in the Roman world, since the Jews clearly weren't going to play. As a result, it was necessary to have Rome (in the person of Pontius Pilate) "wash my hands" of Jesus's death. That is not, of course, how things worked at the time.

Harel13 said:

You see this in religions?

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Yes, I think Jews and Christians have often done so, and act like in this:

'These people draw near to me with their mouth, And honor me with their lips; But their heart is far from me. And in vain do they worship me, Teaching as doctrine rules made by men.'"
Matt. 15:8-9

pcarl said:

It is not clear at all that the Jews, collectively, are responsible for Jesus crucifixion but the establishment, the aristocracy, along with the Roman govrnment. Now it is true that by the time of John's gospel anti-Semitism included all Jews. But the circumstances of the Johannine community must be considered.

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It is clear as I have showed in the Bible. (Acts 2:22-23) (Acts 3:12-14).

If that isn't enough, (Acts 2:36) "Therefore let let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ."

You certainly don't have to believe it. But I do.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

It is clear as I have showed in the Bible. (Acts 2:22-23) (Acts 3:12-14).

If that isn't enough, (Acts 2:36) "Therefore let let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ."

You certainly don't have to believe it. But I do.

Good-Ole-Rebel

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All humans are responsible - If you believe Bible:

For there is no distinction [between Jew and Gentile]: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. (Romans 3:22-25)

PearlSeeker said:

All humans are responsible - If you believe Bible:

For there is no distinction [between Jew and Gentile]: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. (Romans 3:22-25)

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I do believe the Bible. That all, both Jew and Gentile, are sinners and in need of salvation, is clear. That all, both Jew and Gentile, are justified by grace through faith, is clear also. That all, both Jew and Gentile, become sons of God by faith in Jesus Christ, is also clear. (Gal. 3:26-28)

Plus, the Gentiles certainly played a role in Christs crucifixion. (Acts 2:23) "...ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."

But it is the house of Israel that God holds directly responsible for that rejection and crucifixion. Why? Because it is to Israel that Christ came as their Messiah. Christ's message at the beginning of His ministry was to Israel alone. To them was the kingdom offered that had been promised in the Old Testament.

(Matt. 4:17) "...Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

(Matt. 10:5-7) "These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles,and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand."

So the message and the miracles of Christ verified to Israel that He was the Messiah promised. And many were on the verge of recognizing Him as such. (Matt. 11:23) "And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?" (John 7:31) "And many of the people, believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?

This impact upon the people got the attention of the Pharisees and priests. Thus enter 'Judaism'. (John 7:32) "The Pharisees heard that the people murmured such things concerning him;..." And the miracles were so great that they could not be denied by the Pharisees. But at the raising of Lazarus from the dead what was the religious leaders reaction? Just as they were prepared to kill Christ, (Matt. 12:14), so also were they prepared to kill Lazarus. (John 12:9-11) "...But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death....." The religious leaders set about to do whatever they could to take away any reason for the people of Israel to believe that this Christ was the Messiah. Judaism.

So when the people were on the verge of receiving Christ as Messiah, Judaism turned them away. And when Christ healed the demon possessed man by casting the demon out, instead of acknowledging this as from God, the Pharisees said Christ did this by satan instead. (Matt. 12:24,31) Thus the 'unforgiveable sin' was committed. Israel denied her Messiah. Christ now turned away from His offer to Israel concerning the kingdom. They rejected Him. He now rejects them.

Now His road led to the Cross. Individual Jews can be saved, of course. But the house of Israel is under judgement from God.

Good-Ole-Rebel

ideogenous_mover said:

Well in america, it seems like they generally see the practice of the religion as fulfilling a purpose of some kind, in sort of an adjunct sense or even an essential one. For although they think christianity is 'right' and judaism is 'wrong,' judaism still needs to exist in order to somehow further the course of christianity. Perhaps the christians actually want the temple to be rebuilt for example, among other particulars I'm sure, in order to surprisingly (to the practitioners of judaism) bring about their conception of the 'last days.' Because of this, my sense is that they don't actually feel the need to convert all jews, since they are doing all these other things to supposedly further the christian timeline, though perhaps they think they can get 'bonus points' if they do sometimes. I'm sure that throughout history though, the christians must not have always had this sort of symbiotic view they've arrived at

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Scofield's futurism is very popular among Evangelicals, SDA, Baptists..

Harel13 said:

Not sure if this is in the right section...
Anyway, through various discussions and, at times, heated debates online with Christians on different sites these last couple of years, I've come under the impression that at least some Christians view Judaism as "Christianity minus Jesus". Certainly, I'm pretty sure this is a mindset that groups like the Hebrew Christians and Messianic Judaism have used to preach to and convert Jews.

Is this really how Christians view Judaism?

Note: This isn't about what role Christians think Jews serve in the world, but about the religion itself.

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I think this is true about many of the Christians I've known, although admittedly I've avoided Christians who are hostile to Jews, so I don't really know what their ideas are about the relationship of Judaism to Christianity is.

The truth is that Judaism really isn't Christianity minus Jesus. Judaism in its essence must include the oral teachings and all the various traditions we have (even in those denominations that are tradition lite). When Christianity added Jesus, and took their faith in the Messiah to the Gentiles, the Gentiles subtracted Jewish halakhah and traditions, building on Paul's writings.

It's kind of odd, because Jesus of course was an observant Jew as were the apostles and first Christians. It's simply long forgotten.

Jim said:

Now I’m thinking that Jews who follow the best teachings of the rabbis could be following Jesus as well as any Christians are.

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Are you talking about Messianic Judaism? You must know that MJ is, at BEST a syncretistic religion, and at worst simply another Christian denomination.

It has shown itself to be an utter failure at converting Jews to Jesus (count how many actual Jews are at their worship services) but it is a really good stepping stone for Gentiles that end up converting to Judaism.

Surely you must know how noxious MJ is to us Jews.

Jim said:

Now I’m thinking that the teachings of the rabbis might be evidence that there really was such a person as the Jesus that we see in the gospel stories.

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How so? There are many Yeshua's written about in the Talmud, but none of them are the Yeshua that Christians worship.

PearlSeeker said:

All humans are responsible - If you believe Bible:

For there is no distinction [between Jew and Gentile]: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. (Romans 3:22-25)

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When Paul writes that therre is no distinction between Jew and Gentile, do you really think he meant that Jews no longer exist? After all, he also said there is no male and female, and obviously there is. No, it is obvious he meant as we stand before God in judgment. But here on earth, he spoke many occasions of Jews and Gentiles.

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

I do believe the Bible. That all, both Jew and Gentile, are sinners and in need of salvation, is clear. That all, both Jew and Gentile, are justified by grace through faith, is clear also. That all, both Jew and Gentile, become sons of God by faith in Jesus Christ, is also clear. (Gal. 3:26-28)

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Yet the prophets clearly teach that the remnant of the People of Israel are those who are obedient. Indeed they never once, NEVER ONCE, say a darn thing about having faith in the Messiah.

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

The Bible is clear that Israel is responsible for Christ's death. She has been under the judgement of God since the Babylonian captivity. She will continue under that judgement until God lifts the blindness from her eyes and the end of the tribulation period.

Good-Ole-Rebel

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It's one of the reasons that the Christian scriptures are a crock. Washing hands or not, the responsibility for his death rests solely on Pontius Pilate and the Roman Empire who exectued him for being a messianic rabble rouser.

Basically, Christians were being persecuted for being traitors to the Roman Empire. The last thing they wanted was to further aggitate relations with the Romans. So they washed away Roman responsibility and placed it instead on the Jews, wrongly. I mean, as Tovia Singer says, I wasn't there. I wasn't even in the neighborhood.

As for being under God's judgment since captivity, this is frankly untrue, as living in the land is a sign of being in God's good graces.

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

Why? I am Christian.

Good-Ole-Rebel

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That could mean ANYTHING. Declaring your denomination, or the denomination closest to your personal set of beliefs gives us a short cut to where you are coming from, helps us get to know you. It saves you from writing a lengthy post on your beliefs in order to accomplish the same thing.

firedragon said:

Yes. Diversity exists amongst Muslims, jews and hindus. Buddhists and others too.

But irrelevant to the op.

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It's not the same. Jews have a common core that we all agree to. Christians can't even agree what makes someone a Christian.

Milton Platt said:

Historically, Christians blamed Jews for supposedly being complicit in the death of Jesus. I have always found that peculiar since they also believe his death is a necessary component of their salvation.

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Historically yes. However, this changed for most churches after the Holocaust.

PearlSeeker said:

Of course it does. I appreciate Judaism. I believe that in the world to come there will be no more distinctions.

This is the official doctrine of the Catholic Church:

The Catholic Church recognizes a particular link with the Jewish people in the fact that God chose them before all others to receive his Word. To the Jewish people belong “the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, the promises, and the patriarchs; and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ” (Romans 9:4, 5). The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to the revelation of God in the Old Covenant.​

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The Catholic Church is exceptional in that has, in Nostra Aetate, turned its back on the old Replacement theology, baruch Hashem. But the effects of Nostra Aetate are still unfolding. Your church still holds some doctrines that conflict with it. These will change over time. For example, if Jews are still a covenant people (Pope St John Paul, prayer of repentance, 2000), then the only logical belief would be religious zionism. I could go on. We will enjoy seeing how things go. I am following the talks closely