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Speculation; Peter is not the rock

Iymus

Active Member
"Possessor of spirits"? Can you provide a reference please? I cannot find it in the Bible.

as in owner or all things being of himself and himself being a Spirit.

Gen 14:22 KJV And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth,

Pro 8:22 KJV The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Pro 8:23 KJV I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Joh 4:24 KJV God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Yes, God is a spirit....he is invisible, but his holy spirit can be readily seen by what it accomplishes. God is not the holy spirit.

God is Possessor of Holy Spirit and only begotten Son; they are of him.
 

moorea944

Well-Known Member
What is understanding of

Jer 1:5 KJV Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Im not understanding why you put that verse? Are you saying that, that verse is telling us we have a "soul" or a "spirit"? I hope not.......
 

Iymus

Active Member
Im not understanding why you put that verse? Are you saying that, that verse is telling us we have a "soul" or a "spirit"? I hope not.......

I am implying that the Father of spirits knew us before we got a body of flesh and became a living soul that is man. I am implying that we are a spirit which predates the body that is man or terrestrial.

1Co 15:38 KJV But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

Heb 12:9 KJV Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
as in owner or all things being of himself and himself being a Spirit.

Gen 14:22 KJV And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth,

OK...hang on, what was your point again? :shrug: Weren't you trying to suggest that God was the "Possessor of spirits"?
I don't think anyone is suggesting that the Creator does not own all that he created...but "spirits" of the dead do not exist....so the only "spirits" that are God's creation are the angels.

Pro 8:22 KJV The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Pro 8:23 KJV I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Proverbs 8 is actually referring to Jesus as "wisdom personified". The word translated "possessed" in Hebrew is " qânâh, kaw-naw'; a primitive root; to erect, i.e. create" according to Strongs.

So this is referring to the creation of God's son who personified God's wisdom. In the true sense of the Hebrew word, it more accurately suggests that Wisdom was created as the beginning of God way or the beginning of creation.
If it was speaking literally about wisdom, then it is saying that God wasn't always wise, which we know would be ridiculous.

But if this is referring to Jesus in his pre-human form, then this ties in with Revelation 3:14 and Colossians 1:15 which both speak of Jesus as the first of God's creation.

Proverbs 8:30-31 says...
"Then I was by him, as a master workman;
And I was daily his delight,
Rejoicing always before him,
31 Rejoicing in his habitable earth;
And my delight was with the sons of men
."


This also ties in with Genesis 1:26...the "us" in creation and in John 1:1......the Word who was "with God" "in the beginning".

Joh 4:24 KJV God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

God being a spirit and humans worshipping him "in spirit" are two entirely different applications of the same word.....
"Pneuma"....πνεῦμα pneûma, pnyoo'-mah; from G4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze". So God is a spirit i.e. a spirit being, invisible like the air...and those worshipping him are exhibiting the vital component by which the body is animated. This spirit determines our actions and is the motivating force behind everything that God's worshippers do.

God is Possessor of Holy Spirit and only begotten Son; they are of him.

They are from him...yes. He is the progenitor of everything that exists. The Holy Spirit belongs to God as it is called God's spirit. It can accomplish anything that God directs it to do. God's only begotten son is his first creation. Someone "begotten" needs a begetter.
 

Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
1. No play. About Father's business

Luk 2:49 KJV And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

2. The rock is the gospel of the one who came in his Father's
name / authority and is his anointed and only begotten son.

Mar 1:1 KJV The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

Joh 5:43 KJV I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Joh 5:44 KJV How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

Joh 10:37 KJV If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

Luk 9:49 KJV And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
Luk 9:50 KJV And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

3. The rock is God our Father's business.
You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build....

Yes—it was a play on words.
 

Iymus

Active Member
OK...hang on, what was your point again?

My point is the Possessor of Heaven and Earth would the originator of all spirits and hosts.

Weren't you trying to suggest that God was the "Possessor of spirits"?

Yes. Possessor of Heaven and Earth is Most High God who is a Spirit and Father or Originator and Owner of spirits and hosts within Heaven and Earth.

"spirits" of the dead do not exist..

or perhaps man which is a living soul is spirit and flesh or spirit and a terrestrial body.

Proverbs 8 is actually referring to Jesus as "wisdom personified". The word translated "possessed" in Hebrew is " qânâh, kaw-naw'; a primitive root; to erect, i.e. create" according to Strongs

I used as reference to show the Possessor of Heaven and Earth possessed or brought forth all things that are of him.

God being a spirit and humans worshipping him "in spirit" are two

With God being a Spirit and the Origin of Man being of God; it does not seem unreasonable that we are a spirt in flesh and should worship the Father of spirits "being God" in spirit and truth
 
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Iymus

Active Member
You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build....

Yes—it was a play on words.

Letter of law represents what is written and Spirit of the law represents the intention and meaning behind what is written.

Intention and Meaning must be discerned with increase being of God our Father.

Perhaps to those who do not see intention and meaning it is just a play of words.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Intention & Purpose

Mat 16:13 KJV When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

Mat 16:15 KJV He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 KJV And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Mat 16:17 KJV And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 KJV And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Mat 16:20 KJV Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

Not good accuracy, I'm afraid.

Matthew goes to great lengths to use the Eastern Aramaic family title for Simon, and then flits off tyo a language that none of the disciples would have known to give Simon a title which we already know was 'Cephas'.

But it's interesting that Matthew reports that Jesus (Yeshua) did not give himself the title 'Son of God' but 'Son of Man' which all the Jews could use for themselves and each other.

Most if not all the disciples had nicknames amongst the group, and Simon was known as 'Cephas', probably because he was pretty hard, which most of the others were as well, actually.
 
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oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
What is not good accuracy in particular?
Is it possible to clarify more?
I showed fair clarity over that, I think.

There is little doubt that Simon's nickname was Cephas.

Interestingly, most of the other disciples had tough nicknames as well. Clearly they were not meek and mild folks.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Peter is not the rock; ...

I think that depends on how it is understood. Jesus is the corner stone of God’s temple and his disciples are the other stones.

Jesus said to them, "Did you never read in the Scriptures, 'The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner. This was from the Lord. It is marvelous in our eyes?' "Therefore I tell you, the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and will be given to a nation bringing forth its fruits. He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but on whoever it will fall, it will scatter him as dust."
Matt. 21:42-44

Don't you know that you are a temple of God, and that God's Spirit lives in you?
1 Corinthians 3:16

You also, as living stones, are built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. Because it is contained in Scripture, "Behold, I lay in Zion a chief cornerstone, chosen, and precious: He who believes in him will not be disappointed." For you therefore who believe is the honor, but for such as are disobedient, "The stone which the builders rejected, Has become the chief cornerstone,"
1 Pet. 2:5-7

So, Peter can also be called a rock, but he is obviously not as precious as Jesus. :)
 

sooda

Veteran Member
I showed fair clarity over that, I think.

There is little doubt that Simon's nickname was Cephas.

Interestingly, most of the other disciples had tough nicknames as well. Clearly they were not meek and mild folks.

John 1:42

And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.
 

Iymus

Active Member
So, Peter can also be called a rock, but he is obviously not as precious as Jesus.

what the rock represents is greater than peter and predates peter. he is called a rock, but his understanding received from Father in Heaven, is actually what is the rock and not he himself literally.

however this seem to be pearl that some do not want cast onto them. not calling anyone a swine though.
 

Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Letter of law represents what is written and Spirit of the law represents the intention and meaning behind what is written.

Intention and Meaning must be discerned with increase being of God our Father.

Perhaps to those who do not see intention and meaning it is just a play of words.
Perhaps you don’t understand what I’m saying or how the play on words gives meaning to what Jesus was saying.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
what the rock represents is greater than peter and predates peter. he is called a rock, but his understanding received from Father in Heaven, is actually what is the rock and not he himself literally.

however this seem to be pearl that some do not want cast onto them. not calling anyone a swine though.

No........
The disciples were all hardened and tough men, and their nicknames showed this. It's as simple as that.

I think it's simple history and not heavenly spin, but that's just my opinion. :)
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
If a scientist would just stop arguing, then we would be able to tell information how it is stated.

Human males are telling all the stories.

O God the planet is not rationally O God nor a planet. So nor is it a rock.

Humans as males, the first scientists gave all names to the naming of all states natural for their human self purpose.

When you accept that human self historical advice then you will stop pretending as an egotist that you were Mr Know it all as some form of male God self.

Which science infers science is, as a male and as a human male. From being the owner human and male as the inventor of the states of science.

A male said to self in self agreement with his own life attacked that science as Maths O had caused it by changing MASS.

Therefore as he applied his rationale to thinking in his mind/head, he rationally told his own self that his ideas about stone/rock told him as the statement of Peter, to which he the male self gave title to.....to never change SION...the fusion ever again.

And allow God the O stone planet to hold and owns its rock fusion presence...and built his CHURCH as the statement to say I agree.

By head and by mind male scientific statements. So therefore took personal spiritual head of the Order of male groups as that TITLE for a holy precept.

As a male advice to his male self.

What was said by the status building of the CHURCH was therefore proclaimed to be the HOLY TRUTH and rationale as by law of science and also law of life continuance, healing/the spirit.

How it was taught as a rationale in the times of its ordered reality.

If a male human wants to argue, ask his own self, just because your bio life owns hearing, does it make sound reality?

Disciples is a claim to the disciplines of understanding when a human self is wrong.

As based on the sacrifice and pain and suffering and early age death of natural male life. As per the Jesus review, the claim to only being alive for 33 years.

If a male had to prove that his own life was being removed by the activity of science trying to emulate God O by maths/time....then . point to the side is at 3, that drops to 6, back to 12, as minus. The letter G. O the full owned body of the rock/stone.

Seeing the O God planet stone has to exist to be a body that travels through space, as the movement of space travel itself.

G O D was therefore a title used to explain a male rationale about how he identified that God the stone was being minus and removed as the presence God, the stone.

By identification of the sink hole gain...removal of the spirit entombed in stone, and then gone missing/removed.

Sacred ice, sacrifice was said why the spirit of life was returned to the atmosphere, as they knew ICE melted.

Therefore if he studied the LAW of fusion of stone and the Law of the mountain and taught everyone that he broke the law, then he did, as a rational science male human explanation to his own male self.

And conferred the identification by a mass/maths science O discipline, giving it mind thought about titles....as the Head advising itself as the scientist.

How else do you think it was human explained, by some other means other than thinking and studying?

As a conclusive study and report had to be compiled anyone today trying to read these documents as if they are a step by step advice would be proven wrong. It was a concluded self evidence against self, the scientist that he was wrong.

It was not a step by step advice about how to copy it and cause it yourself....you know scientist SINK holes.
 

Iymus

Active Member
No........
The disciples were all hardened and tough men, and their nicknames showed this. It's as simple as that.

I think it's simple history and not heavenly spin, but that's just my opinion. :)

i'm looking at the spiritual aspect.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
1. Why specifically is he mentioned as being the rock?

2. What would peter being the rock mean?

3. If one finds blame or fault in the rock; could they be considered antichrist?
Petros is the masculine ending in Greek of Petra which means rock.

Christ effectively told Simon Peter that his new name was rock and on this rock he would build his church. There is just no getting round this obvious statement. There is no other way to interpret this that makes any sense whatsoever.
 

Iymus

Active Member
Petros is the masculine ending in Greek of Petra which means rock.

Christ effectively told Simon Peter that his new name was rock and on this rock he would build his church. There is just no getting round this obvious statement. There is no other way to interpret this that makes any sense whatsoever.

So I can use that same literal logic for verse 23?

Mat 16:23 KJV But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Then would that same literal logic not invalidate the whole new testament?

because

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

and

Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
 
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exchemist

Veteran Member
So I can use that same literal logic for verse 23?

Mat 16:23 KJV But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Then would that same literal logic not invalidate the whole new testament?

because

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

and

Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
It’s not literal. Jesus did not mean Peter was literally a rock. Durrh.

This is hopeless.
 
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