Speculation; Peter is not the rock

Deeje · Feb 19, 2020

Iymus said:
not the soul but the spirit which is referred as ghost

Job 3:11 Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?

And therein lies the problem...what translation are you using? The "soul" is a living, breathing creature....both man and animals are called "souls", but what do they have in common? Certainly not heaven.

After saying that there was nothing better than for humans than..."to rejoice and to do good during their life, 13 also that everyone should eat and drink and find enjoyment for all his hard work. It is the gift of God."....

But then Solomon lamented...
"I also said in my heart about the sons of men that the true God will test them and show them that they are like animals, 19 for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust." (Ecclesiastes 3:12-13; 18-20)

This reinforces the Jewish belief that humans die and return to the dust, just as Adam did, and as the animals do. They have but one spirit.....so what is this spirit?

The Hebrew word ruʹach and the Greek word pneuʹma, translated “spirit,” have a number of meanings. All of them refer to that which is...."invisible to human sight and gives evidence of force in motion."

The Hebrew and Greek words are used with reference to (1) wind, (2) the active life-force in earthly creatures, (3) the impelling force that issues from a person’s figurative heart and causes him to say and do things in a certain way, (4) inspired expressions originating from an invisible source, (5) spirit persons, and (6) God’s active force, or holy spirit. (Exodus 35:21; Psalm 104:29; Matthew 12:43; Luke 11:13) All these scriptures have different uses of the words "ruʹach" and "pneuʹma". None of them mean a "ghost". In fact the word "ghost" is not in the original language texts because it is based on a German word "geist" which means "spirit". There are no such things as "ghosts". (spirits of the dead)

We have English words that reflect the meaning of the word pneuʹma...."pneumonia"....."pneumatic" all have to do with... “air”, ‘breath or a blast of wind, or a breeze.’ (Strong’s Concordance)

a literal dwelling place of ghosts or spirits i suspect. Just as Earth is a literal dwelling place of the flesh which is terrestrial.

The Bible says that spirits (angels) inhabit the spirit realm....and fleshly creatures inhabit the material realm....the only ones who inhabit the spirit realm are those who were created to live there. They have spirit bodies created by God to dwell in his presence.
The humans who go to heaven to rule with Christ are given spirit bodies when they are resurrected, so that they can assist Jesus as 'kings and priests' in the administration of God's Kingdom. (Revelation 20:6)

Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?

Luk_23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

"Ghost" here is an incorrect translation of "spirit." It is in Hebrew, "gâvaʻ, gaw-vah'; a primitive root; to breathe out, i.e. (by implication) expire:—die, be dead, perish." In Greek it is "ekpneō" which means "to breathe out, breathe out one's life, breathe one's last, expire".

To give up the spirit means to stop breathing. May I encourage you to use a more up to date Bible translation? The one you are using seems to be outdated in its renderings.

a living soul of man is spirit and flesh. our flesh houses our spirit. when we die our ghost which is our spirit departs our body.

our soul dies but our ghost or spirit moves on to respective dwelling place.

Since the spirit is our "breath" then nothing leaves the body at death except out last breath. There is no conscious part of us that survives to go anywhere. We are just dead. But God holds out the promise of a resurrection, a return to this life, (John 5:28-29) which is what the Bible teaches. When Jesus resurrected his friend Lazarus, where did Lazarus come back from? (John 11:11-14) If he had gone to a better place, then why did Jesus bring him back to this life, only to die again? Did Lazarus mention anything about where he had been?

There is so much to learn but all of it paints one amazing picture.....what we lost in the beginning, Jesus came to get back for us.

Iymus · Feb 19, 2020

Deeje said:
And therein lies the problem...what translation are you using? The "soul" is a living, breathing creature....both man and animals are called "souls", but what do they have in common? Certainly not heaven.

Not necessarily; considering our origin is of the Possessor of spirits who himself is a Spirit who seem to know us before the womb.

Joh 4:24 KJV God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Heb 12:9 KJV Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

1Co 15:38 KJV But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Co 15:39 KJV All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 KJV There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

Jer 1:5 KJV Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Iymus · Feb 19, 2020

metis said:
Actually he was.

In order to understand why, one needs to use the Aramaic word for "rock", which is "kepha" (the "k" is gutteral) However, when going from Aramaic to Greek, a problem arose for the translators, namely that Greek is gender sensitive, thus the "a" at the end indicates female. So, when Jesus changes Simon's name to "Petros", the name had to include the "os" ending because Peter was a man.

The fact that Jesus changed Simon's name as such indicates a message of sorts. And the wording leading up to that tells us this because Jesus says "Thou are Petros, and upon this petra I will build my Church...". Certainly Peter knew what his name was, so that lead-in is quite clear that Jesus is putting "Petros" and "petra" together.

1. Why specifically is he mentioned as being the rock?

2. What would peter being the rock mean?

3. If one finds blame or fault in the rock; could they be considered antichrist?

metis · Feb 19, 2020

Iymus said:
1. Why specifically is he mentioned as being the rock?

2. What would peter being the rock mean?

Peter was the spiritual head of the 1st century Church after Jesus of course. The administrative head was James and the financial head was Judas.

Iymus said:
3. If one finds blame or fault in the rock; could they be considered antichrist?

Not at all because there's no such claim that the "rock" would be faultless.

moorea944 · Feb 19, 2020

Iymus said:
Not necessarily; considering our origin is of the Possessor of spirits who himself is a Spirit who seem to know us before the womb.

Joh 4:24 KJV God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Heb 12:9 KJV Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

1Co 15:38 KJV But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Co 15:39 KJV All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 KJV There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

Jer 1:5 KJV Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

I think we have to remember that the translators took certain Hebrew and Greek words and put them into English. "Spirit' can have a different Greek word to it and have a different meaning too. God's spirit can be different from Stephen giving up his "spirit" when he was stoned. In Stephen's case, spirit is the same as "life". He gave up his life.

Same with "GOD" and "God". All different meanings. Also with angels.

Iymus · Feb 19, 2020

moorea944 said:
I think we have to remember that the translators took certain Hebrew and Greek words and put them into English. "Spirit' can have a different Greek word to it and have a different meaning too. God's spirit can be different from Stephen giving up his "spirit" when he was stoned. In Stephen's case, spirit is the same as "life". He gave up his life.

Same with "GOD" and "God". All different meanings. Also with angels.

Don't think one loses their life when heart stops beating and they are said to be clinically dead but when one's spirit leaves the body.

Book of Jubilees Chapter 2

For on the first day He created the heavens which are above and the earth and the waters and all the spirits which serve before him -the angels of the presence, and the angels of sanctification, and the angels [of the spirit of fire and the angels] of the spirit of the winds, and the angels of the spirit of the clouds, and of darkness, and of snow and of hail and of hoar frost, and the angels of the voices and of the thunder and of the lightning, and the angels of the spirits of cold and of heat, and of winter and of spring and of autumn and of summer and of all the spirits of his creatures which are in the heavens and on the earth, (He created) the abysses and the darkness, eventide <and night>, and the light, dawn and day, which He hath prepared in the knowledge of his heart.

Iymus · Feb 19, 2020

metis said:
Peter was the spiritual head of the 1st century Church after Jesus of course.

1. The Head is who the Doctrine is of which does not change.

Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

2. The rock is the understanding that the Son of Man is the Anointed and Son of the Living God; with this understanding one should believe the will and works of the Living God he revealed and performed.

Mat 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Joh 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

3. The rock the church is built upon is

Mar 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

2Pe 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

4. Saying Peter is the rock himself sounds good, but when I look upon the works of those that preach that gospel and it's origination; the purpose seems to be to make merchandise of and control others.

metis · Feb 19, 2020

Iymus said:
1. The Head is who the Doctrine is of which does not change.

That was in reference to Jesus taking his cues from God the Father. Therefore, it does not pertain to the Apostles, nor their appointees.

Iymus said:
Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

See above.

Iymus said:
The rock is the understanding that the Son of Man is the Anointed and Son of the Living God; with this understanding one should believe the will and works of the Living God he revealed and performed.

That doesn't explain why Jesus changed Simon's name to "Petros".

Iymus said:
The rock the church is built upon is

"Rock", depending on its context, can stand for different things.

Iymus said:
Saying Peter is the rock himself sounds good, but when I look upon the works of those that preach that gospel and it's origination; the purpose seems to be to make merchandise of and control others.

Not at all. Peter was a fallible human followed by other fallible humans. There is virtually no statement by Jesus that it would be anything more than that. Even the Apostles were shown in the Gospels with flaws of various types.

Iymus · Feb 19, 2020

metis said:
That was in reference to Jesus taking his cues from God the Father. Therefore, it does not pertain to the Apostles, nor their appointees.

The Son taking cues from God does not pertain to the Apostles or appointees? Interesting

metis said:
That doesn't explain why Jesus changed Simon's name to "Petros".

Explanation in same Chapter:

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

.

metis · Feb 19, 2020

Iymus said:
The Son taking cues from God does not pertain to the Apostles or appointees? Interesting

That depends on how you mean that.

Jesus takes what God taught and then passed that on to the Apostles, but there's no statement by him that the Apostles could never be in error.

Iymus said:
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

And the "gates of hell" didn't prevail because that Church is still very much here, thus surviving for almost 2000 years.

A church-- any church-- cannot claim complete inerrancy, nor can we even make that claim in regards to the Bible itself.

Iymus · Feb 19, 2020

metis said:
That depends on how you mean that.

Jesus takes what God taught and then passed that on to the Apostles, but there's no statement by him that the Apostles could never be in error.

It would be up to you since you brought it up.

metis said:
And the "gates of hell" didn't prevail because that Church is still very much here, thus surviving for almost 2000 years.

Where?

metis said:
A church-- any church-- cannot claim complete inerrancy, nor can we even make that claim in regards to the Bible itself.

Seems Is about believing that the Son of Man is the Anointed and Son of the Living God and came in his name/authority.

metis · Feb 19, 2020

Iymus said:
It would be up to you since you brought it up.

Where?

Seems Is about believing that the Son of Man is the Anointed and Son of the Living God and came in his name/authority.

Sorry but I've run out of time and interest.

moorea944 · Feb 19, 2020

Iymus said:
Don't think one loses their life when heart stops beating and they are said to be clinically dead but when one's spirit leaves the body.

Book of Jubilees Chapter 2

For on the first day He created the heavens which are above and the earth and the waters and all the spirits which serve before him -the angels of the presence, and the angels of sanctification, and the angels [of the spirit of fire and the angels] of the spirit of the winds, and the angels of the spirit of the clouds, and of darkness, and of snow and of hail and of hoar frost, and the angels of the voices and of the thunder and of the lightning, and the angels of the spirits of cold and of heat, and of winter and of spring and of autumn and of summer and of all the spirits of his creatures which are in the heavens and on the earth, (He created) the abysses and the darkness, eventide <and night>, and the light, dawn and day, which He hath prepared in the knowledge of his heart.

I think our versions of "spirit" and "soul" are different from one another. But no worries. Nothing leaves the body, when your dead, your dead. There is nothing in scripture that tells us that something leaves the body at death. Plus, I have no idea what the book of Jubilees is. "Spirit" can be written in different ways. It can mean, life, the way you feel, the mind, etc... Same with soul, but the main meaning with soul is, someone or something that is alive. Remember that we are not given a soul, we are a soul.

oldbadger · Feb 19, 2020

Iymus said:
Peter is not the rock; His understanding that the Son of Man is the Anointed/Christ and Son of The Living God is the rock.

1. Question asked:

Mat 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

2. Correct Answer given:

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

3. Reason Correct Answer Given:

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

4. Result of Correct Answer given

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Nope.
The man Yeshua BarYosef never did say that to Simon BarJona. Never...........

Neither of them spoke or understood the word 'Peter'.
If you want to be accurate, then be accurate.

Simon's nickname was Cephas, probably because he was a tough bloke and a firm anchorman. The boatmen's anchors were rocks....... so was Simon.

Cephas....

Iymus · Feb 19, 2020

metis said:
Sorry but I've run out of time and interest.

Intent & Purpose

Mat 16:20 KJV Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
___________

1Jn 5:1 KJV Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1Jn 5:5 KJV Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

_______________

Mat 16:18 KJV And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

___________________

Mar 1:1 KJV The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

Iymus · Feb 19, 2020

oldbadger said:
Nope.
The man Yeshua BarYosef never did say that to Simon BarJona. Never...........

Neither of them spoke or understood the word 'Peter'.
If you want to be accurate, then be accurate.

Simon's nickname was Cephas, probably because he was a tough bloke and a firm anchorman. The boatmen's anchors were rocks....... so was Simon.

Cephas....

Intention & Purpose

Mat 16:13 KJV When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

Mat 16:15 KJV He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 KJV And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Mat 16:17 KJV And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 KJV And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Mat 16:20 KJV Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

Iymus · Feb 19, 2020

moorea944 said:
Remember that we are not given a soul, we are a soul.

What is understanding of

Jer 1:5 KJV Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Watchmen · Feb 19, 2020

metis said:
Actually he was.

In order to understand why, one needs to use the Aramaic word for "rock", which is "kepha" (the "k" is gutteral) However, when going from Aramaic to Greek, a problem arose for the translators, namely that Greek is gender sensitive, thus the "a" at the end indicates female. So, when Jesus changes Simon's name to "Petros", the name had to include the "os" ending because Peter was a man.

The fact that Jesus changed Simon's name as such indicates a message of sorts. And the wording leading up to that tells us this because Jesus says "Thou are Petros, and upon this petra I will build my Church...". Certainly Peter knew what his name was, so that lead-in is quite clear that Jesus is putting "Petros" and "petra" together.

Bingo. It was a play on words. Clearly Peter is the rock; otherwise the play on words wouldn’t make sense.

Iymus · Feb 19, 2020

Watchmen said:
Bingo. It was a play on words. Clearly Peter is the rock; otherwise the play on words wouldn’t make sense.

1. No play. About Father's business

Luk 2:49 KJV And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

2. The rock is the gospel of the one who came in his Father's
name / authority and is his anointed and only begotten son.

Mar 1:1 KJV The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

Joh 5:43 KJV I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Joh 5:44 KJV How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

Joh 10:37 KJV If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

Luk 9:49 KJV And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
Luk 9:50 KJV And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

3. The rock is God our Father's business.

Deeje · Feb 19, 2020

Iymus said:
Not necessarily; considering our origin is of the Possessor of spirits who himself is a Spirit who seem to know us before the womb.

"Possessor of spirits"? Can you provide a reference please? I cannot find it in the Bible.

As mentioned, the word "spirit" has many meanings in scripture. It's primary meaning in connection with "souls" is the breath that animates the body...whether man or animal, their death is the same...they stop breathing...their spirit "goes out" like a light or a candle "goes out"....it doesn't leave the room, it is extinguished. A return to the dust is what is said to take place at death. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20; Genesis 3:19)

Iymus said:
Jer 1:5 KJV Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

This is true only of those who had a special assignment from God.....such as Jeremiah who was foreordained to be a prophet....and Abraham's son Isaac and his son Jacob who would produce the Messiah in their line of descent....John the Baptist, who was to "prepare a way" for the Jews to accept their Messiah....and of course Jesus Christ who was transferred from heaven to be born as a human child and give his life for us.....it does not apply to others. If it did, then free will would be meaningless. God can choose to know who and whatever he wishes, but by and large, he leaves our decisions up to us. He foreordains no one's life course.

Iymus said:
Joh 4:24 KJV God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Yes, God is a spirit....he is invisible, but his holy spirit can be readily seen by what it accomplishes. God is not the holy spirit. He is a spiritual Being who exercises his power. The holy spirit is what God uses to accomplish his will. It was the power behind creation. It was the power that healed the sick and raided the dead in Jesus' day.

Heb 12:9 KJV Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Father of spirits?......isn't God the creator of all his spirit sons? Angels exist as spirit beings so that they can dwell in the presence of God and not die from the experience, as God told Moses. (Exodus 33:20) These spirits are not spirits of the dead. There is no such thing.

1Co 15:38 KJV But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Co 15:39 KJV All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 KJV There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

Here is a classic example of Paul clarifying the "first resurrection" (Revelation 20:6)...of those chosen to assist Christ in the rulership of his Kingdom.

Paul wrote at 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16....
"But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first." (NASB)

You see that the dead are referred to as "sleeping", just as Jesus said of his friend Lazarus. (John 11:11-14)

Resurrection requires a body...be it a spirit body or a fleshly body. Paul shows that the resurrection of those who are "dead in Christ" will rise "first."...but do you notice when that resurrection is to take place?...it is not until Christ's return. That means that all the dead are exactly where Solomon said they were....in "sheol" or "hades"...the grave, where they have no conscious existence. (Ecclesiastes 9:5; 10) Jesus promises to resurrect them by calling them from their graves. (John 5:28-29) He cannot do that unless the dead are all still in them. How comforting to think of our dead loved ones simply sleeping...resting in peace.

An immortal spirit is a hard concept to lose when one has been taught that death is not really death, but a transformation to another life.....but that is NOT what the Bible teaches, however. At death, we "sleep" awaiting the resurrection. That was the teaching that brought me to God many years ago....

Speculation; Peter is not the rock

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