The Quandary

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

From your profile, and it is you that sets those permissions.

"This member limits who may view their full profile."

Self explanatory, I would say.



CG really, this is where all this discussion has taken you?

The day that God gives a Messenger the time to reveal themselves, it is a day that can not be hidden by any Messenger, as on that day, the day of Revelation, they are naught but the Will of God amongst man. The Sun has risen and shines on all people. One must be up and awake to watch the Sun rise.

I am actually tired of all these childish debate games, I would hope your are as well, but I guess all part of the quandary.

Regards Tony

Click to expand...

Childish games? You only responded to the first part of the post. Why not the rest of it? Baha'is have used the Bible when convenient and ignored what it says when it isn't. They say that someone changed Isaac for Ishmael in the story of Abraham. And the Jesus is dead. You don't believe in the same Bible that Christians believe. You might be right... but you might be just another religious movement that does nothing but add to the collection of the many religions in the world. We need more "proof" than it took you to become convinced. What's wrong with that?

CG Didymus said:

Oh, but wait, can we trust everything that the followers of Jesus said about God and Jesus? They said they saw him alive and well after being killed and then that he rose into the sky and disappeared. But that ain't true is it. But Christians say it is. And what do they have as proof? There own writings, written by believers, that say that it is true and that those things really happened... and that there were many witnesses.

So some people say "sure" it is true, then what are they then committed to believe? That Jesus is the only way. That he came to die as a sacrifice for the sins of the people. That people can't do anything on their own to get their sins forgiven, and without Jesus, they would be sent to hell along with Satan and on and on. Most of which Baha'is say isn't true.

Yet, Baha'is say Jesus and the Bible are true? Wow... true about what? God spoke from heaven? No. Elijah and Jesus were taken up into heaven? No. Satan tempted Jesus? No. God walked in the garden with Adam and Eve? No. Moses parted the waters and God led the Hebrews through the desert as a pillar of smoke? No. Baha'is say none of this really happened. So, how different is that then saying the Bible is a book of fiction?

Click to expand...

Like I said, you don't believe in the same Bible as the Christians do. But, like I've also said, Christians don't believe in the same Bible as the Jews believe in. Everyone changes the Bible to whatever suits their beliefs. So why should we believe a nobleman from Persian is the return of Christ? You give us "proofs" and we question those "proofs". You go in circles and we accuse you of not having any proofs. You say that you did give us proofs, but we didn't accept those proofs. And so it goes. But there has been a lot of tough questions that have gone unanswered. And that is not helping your cause.

CG Didymus said:

Like I said, you don't believe in the same Bible as the Christians do. But, like I've also said, Christians don't believe in the same Bible as the Jews believe in. Everyone changes the Bible to whatever suits their beliefs. So why should we believe a nobleman from Persian is the return of Christ? You give us "proofs" and we question those "proofs". You go in circles and we accuse you of not having any proofs. You say that you did give us proofs, but we didn't accept those proofs. And so it goes. But there has been a lot of tough questions that have gone unanswered. And that is not helping your cause.

Click to expand...

Such is the Quandary CG and the importance of an Individual to search after Truth for their own selves.

I ask as a point and as an interest, after all this time, have you taken up the offer to read the Kitab-i-Iqan?

The tablet of a True Seeker posted above by trailblazer is very applicable to this quandary.

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

It also does not make it false. Oh such a quandary

I see no need to argue the point, you have your way, I have mine.

I wish you all the best this world can offer. That is also a metaphor.

Regards Tony

Click to expand...

Sure, you cannot provide any more "proof" of your religious dogma, so you run away.

The whole point that you keep on missing is that while it is good in your ardent questioning of the validity of my spiritual experiences, the thing I keep trying to get you to see is how you obviously NEVER applied the same "harsh standards" to your own Baha'u'llah's personally CLAIMED spiritual experiences and the religion other men built up around it. If you had, you would not so blindly believe in it, because it all comes down to "Because they/it says so" and nothing more. Which fails your own standards. But you just cannot see that!!!

You are only proving the point I keep on making about most religions, that it's NOT about whether it really contains anything of spiritual value, but all about which religion gets to brainwash the person first. Then they are sucked in forever and the vast majority can never get out.

Trailblazer said:

Irrelevant because I didn't.

Click to expand...

Ha, what's the matter?

Down deep you know that I'm right, that's why you keep running away from answering it.

The "IF" at the very start of the question CLEARLY indicates that it's a HYPOTHETICAL question.

So come on, you can do it, try answering it:

"If you had met the most wonderful person in the whole universe when you were just a child, and they protected you your entire life, treated you with unlimited love, was filled with nothing but empathy and compassion, NEVER showed even an inkling of any of the lower emotions like jealously, hate, anger, revenge, wrath, cruelty, etc., answered all your questions in a clear, concise, and all encompassing manner, etc, etc, etc...

Then you found out many people were writing books of LIES about him and claiming to have ALL the answers about him and all things "spiritual". Making him out to be some evil demonic entity and telling everyone all kinds of insane gobbledygook instead of anything truly spiritual. So which would YOU believe, your own personal experience or any or all of the books of LIES they wrote about HIM???"

Trailblazer said:

Why do you keep bringing Baha'u'llah into this?
THIS is about the alleged God experience YOU claimed YOU had.
Bringing Baha'u'llah into this is a Red Herring, redder than red.

You CLAIMED you had an experience from "God", but that does not mean you had one.

So you are clearly not dealing with reality, as you have yet to provide any PROOF that you actually had a God experience.

Click to expand...

The only RED HERRING is how YOU keep trying to change the focus to "me" because YOU cannot provide any more "proof" that your Baha'u'llah even had any true "spiritual experience" other than claiming over, and over, and over that your dogma "says so", so THAT "proves" it. Which is laughable.

Ancient Soul said:

Down deep you know that I'm right.

Click to expand...

Hardly.

Deep down, I know Baha'u'llah was right, and that God does not speak directly to anyone except His chosen Messengers,so that means God never spoke to you.

You are free to believe whatever you want but that is what I believe so don't waste both of our times trying to convince me otherwise.

Ancient Soul said:

The only RED HERRING is how YOU keep trying to change the focus to "me" because YOU cannot provide any more "proof" that your Baha'u'llah even had any true "spiritual experience" other than claiming over, and over, and over that your dogma "says so", so THAT "proves" it. Which is laughable.

Click to expand...

The only RED HERRING is how YOU keep trying to change the focus to "Baha'u'llah" because YOU cannot provide any "proof" that you had any true "spiritual experience" other than claiming over, and over, and over that you had one, so THAT "proves" it. Which is laughable.

Why keep deflecting by talking about Baha'u'llah? Even if there was no proof that He had a spiritual experience that does not change the fact that you have no proof that you had a spiritual experience.

Trailblazer said:

Good for you! Most people would not take a dog with that condition. I know all about heart murmurs and heart disease in cats because I have lost so many to HCM, since it was passed down to them genetically.

A few weeks ago, I tried to adopt a Persian cat with a grade 3 heart murmur, but someone else got him before I could get to that shelter which was in a city 30 miles north of here.

I just lost a Persian cat who had poly-cystic kidney disease and a grade 3 heart murmur three weeks ago it was devastating because he had no symptoms till the last three days of his life. I am still in shock but I am coping thanks to God and Nova. I have NO doubt that God found Nova for me and that God found Azarel for you, and you for him. Nova was purchased as a breeder from the woman I bought him from and she paid $2500 but then she decided she was not going to breed cats after all, so I got him from her for only $200 on Craigslist, because she had to find a home for him quickly owing to a dire life situation she had. Before she bought him, he had been cooped up at the breeder's home in a small laundry room with lots of other cats so he came to me very skittish, but he is starting to settle down now, and it is only five days. I think he is very happy, he has peace and quiet here and a lot of love and a lot of company from my other nine Persians. The only problem is that he eats all their food, and they need it more than him. He also cries a lot which is unusual for a Persian cat, but I think he will be okay in due time.

Click to expand...

I'm not a cat person, but I'm sure cats have to adjust to new living situations also. Sounds like he's adjusting fine. The only thing to keep in mind when getting new cats, is that you run the risks of bringing in diseases that could infect your other cats.

Well, I didn't have time before to write down all the details, but I also checked out what causes heart murmurs and who to tell the difference between the "grades" and what the symptoms are. And with a grade 4, at worst it would mean that at around 4-5 years old he might start having seizures. Then depending upon the severity, it might be best to "put him down". So I figured I could at the very least give him a wonderful 4-5 years of life that he would not have otherwise.

But reading as to how they determine what grade the murmur is, and what could affect the diagnosis, like fear, squeezing a puppy to make it hold still, it's diet, etc, led me to be optimistic that it might not be as bad as a grade 4.

Oh you have no idea how true your comment of "that God found Azarel for you" really is. For not only did God guide me to find him and save his life in the nick of time before the woman "put him down", as I hoped, it only turned out to be a GRADE 2 heart murmur!! So he's now 8 years old with the only problem being when we go out hiking in hot summer weather he has to rest a lot to cool down. That, and there is a whole other spiritual aspect "that God found Azarel for you" is spot on, but that is a whole other story that would take way too much to fully explain. Anyway, if you want to check his amazing video, go on Youtube and type in - "Azarel big stick" (Take out the quote marks) in the YOUTUBE search field and it should be the first one with a big German Sheppard carrying a big log. They get bigger as the video progresses.

Ancient Soul said:

I'm not a cat person, but I'm sure cats have to adjust to new living situations also. Sounds like he's adjusting fine. The only thing to keep in mind when getting new cats, is that you run the risks of bringing in diseases that could infect your other cats.

Well, I didn't have time before to write down all the details, but I also checked out what causes heart murmurs and who to tell the difference between the "grades" and what the symptoms are. And with a grade 4, at worst it would mean that at around 4-5 years old he might start having seizures. Then depending upon the severity, it might be best to "put him down". So I figured I could at the very least give him a wonderful 4-5 years of life that he would not have otherwise.

But reading as to how they determine what grade the murmur is, and what could affect the diagnosis, like fear, squeezing a puppy to make it hold still, it's diet, etc, led me to be optimistic that it might not be as bad as a grade 4.

Oh you have no idea how true your comment of "that God found Azarel for you" really is. For not only did God guide me to find him and save his life in the nick of time before the woman "put him down", as I hoped, it only turned out to be a GRADE 2 heart murmur!! So he's now 8 years old with the only problem being when we go out hiking in hot summer weather he has to rest a lot to cool down. That, and there is a whole other spiritual aspect "that God found Azarel for you" is spot on, but that is a whole other story that would take way too much to fully explain. Anyway, if you want to check his amazing video, go on Youtube and type in - "Azarel big stick" (Take out the quote marks) in the YOUTUBE search field and it should be the first one with a big German Sheppard carrying a big log. They get bigger as the video progresses.

Click to expand...

That was a cute video although it made me a bit dizzy.
Dogs are amazing creatures.
I'm so glad it was only a grade 2.

CG Didymus said:

How can you say he has no proof? He quoted Jesus saying he is the way. Is he making it up and lying to us? Oh, but wait, can we trust everything that the followers of Jesus said about God and Jesus? They said they saw him alive and well after being killed and then that he rose into the sky and disappeared. But that ain't true is it. But Christians say it is. And what do they have as proof? There own writings, written by believers, that say that it is true and that those things really happened... and that there were many witnesses.

So some people say "sure" it is true, then what are they then committed to believe? That Jesus is the only way. That he came to die as a sacrifice for the sins of the people. That people can't do anything on their own to get their sins forgiven, and without Jesus, they would be sent to hell along with Satan and on and on. Most of which Baha'is say isn't true.

Yet, Baha'is say Jesus and the Bible are true? Wow... true about what? God spoke from heaven? No. Elijah and Jesus were taken up into heaven? No. Satan tempted Jesus? No. God walked in the garden with Adam and Eve? No. Moses parted the waters and God led the Hebrews through the desert as a pillar of smoke? No. Baha'is say none of this really happened. So, how different is that then saying the Bible is a book of fiction?

Click to expand...

Another fresh approach, good. Maybe you can get thru to them.

I just will never understand how people so blindly believe in the first claim that all religions make, that it came from "god", want proof? We say so, so there, that PROVES it! Geez...

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

From your profile, and it is you that sets those permissions.

"This member limits who may view their full profile."

Self explanatory, I would say.
Regards Tony

Click to expand...

So what in the heck does THAT have to do with your failure to provide any PROOF that your religion came from any "god" other than "it says so"?

Trailblazer said:

Hardly.

Deep down, I know Baha'u'llah was right, and that God does not speak directly to anyone except His chosen Messengers,so that means God never spoke to you.

You are free to believe whatever you want but that is what I believe so don't waste both of our times trying to convince me otherwise.

Click to expand...

And THERE it is AGAIN!

You have absolutely NO PROOF of your Baha'u'llah came from any "god", other than "it says so". Which is absurd in the extreme.

Yet you keep avoiding that, and throwing out the RED HERRING of my spiritual experiences to sidetrack the issue away from your failure.

Ancient Soul said:

And THERE it is AGAIN!

You have absolutely NO PROOF of your Baha'u'llah came from any "god", other than "it says so". Which is absurd in the extreme.

Yet you keep avoiding that, and throwing out the RED HERRING of my spiritual experiences to sidetrack the issue away from your failure.

Click to expand...

And THERE it is AGAIN!

You have absolutely NO PROOF that anything you say came from any "god", other than "YOU SAY SO". Which is absurd in the extreme.

I do not claim to have proof so I do not have to provide proof....
Just like I do not claim to own a red car, so I do not have to show you my red car.

Since you have not provided any proof that you ever had any spiritual experiences other than "YOU SAY SO" I can assume you have no proof that you have ever had any spiritual experiences.

CASE CLOSED.

Ancient Soul said:

I just will never understand how people so blindly believe in the first claim that all religions make, that it came from "god", want proof? We say so, so there, that PROVES it! Geez...

Click to expand...

I just will never understand how people expect other people to blindly believe in the claims they make, that they heard from God. You say so, so there, that PROVES it! Geez...

Trailblazer said:

And THERE it is AGAIN!

You have absolutely NO PROOF that anything you say came from any "god", other than "YOU SAY SO". Which is absurd in the extreme.

I do not claim to have proof so I do not have to provide proof....
Just like I do not claim to own a red car, so I do not have to show you my red car.

Since you have not provided any proof that you ever had any spiritual experiences other than "YOU SAY SO" I can assume you have no proof that you have ever had any spiritual experiences.

CASE CLOSED.

Click to expand...

Ha, ha, ha...

Sure you keep proclaiming that your Baha'u'llah is "true" yet keep throwing out these RED HERRINGS to avoid the fact that you have NO PROOF. Yet you keep using it to distort your view of the world and even go around proclaiming who or who doesn't have spiritual experiences, what is true, what is false, all based upon a lie.

So let's examine this proclamation of your's:

"Deep down, I know Baha'u'llah was right, and that God does not speak directly to anyone except His chosen Messengers,so that means God never spoke to you."

Now AGAIN, ALL that you have to PROVE this is NOTHING. We have been going round and round for days now, and all you do is try all kinds of tactics to avoid the fact that you are basing this belief upon quicksand. That's what ALL religions do, is brainwash people into blindly believing in THEIR religion, and leaves them spiritually and mentally broken, and lost.

It just amazes me how so many people can allow their minds to be so easily hijacked and led astray. I mean, let's start with this:

"God does not speak directly to anyone except His chosen Messengers"

Oh really??!!

Messengers??!!

Funny how ALL of these so called messengers always speak/write using bombastic gobbledygook meant to bedazzle people but completely lack any true spiritual substance.

True spiritual matters are about:

God, his true spiritual nature, laws, judgment process, and plan for all souls.

One's soul, what is it really?

The spiritual realm/universe.

The physical realm/universe.

Why are the spiritual realm and physical realm separate?

What will the "afterlife" be like?

There's way more, but all amounting to the great question of the WHY of it all, and your place in all of it, for what purpose?

Now cry all you want, but you will find more straight answers on some of those topics in my posts than you will NEVER get from studying your "messenger's" gobbledygook for a lifetime.

So my next few posts will post the Quandary that Baha'u'llah offered to the rulers of His time. The declarations to the Rulers of the World find no parallel in any scriptures to date, one may even offer that the Governments were upon His Shoulders.

First to Pope Pius IX

"O Pope! Rend the veils asunder. He Who is the Lord of Lords is come overshadowed with clouds, and the decree hath been fulfilled by God, the Almighty, the Unrestrained.....Say: O peoples of the earth! Destroy the abodes of negligence with the hands of power and assurance, and raise up the mansions of true knowledge within your hearts, that the All-Merciful may shed the radiance of His light upon them.......The Breeze of God hath been wafted over the world at the advent of the Desired One in His great glory, whereupon every stone and clod of earth hath cried out: “The Promised One is come! The Kingdom is God’s, the Mighty, the Gracious, the Forgiving.”......Beware lest human learning debar thee from Him Who is the Supreme Object of all knowledge, or lest the world deter thee from the One Who created it and set it upon its course. Arise in the name of thy Lord, the God of Mercy, amidst the peoples of the earth, and seize thou the Cup of Life with the hands of confidence. First drink thou therefrom, and proffer it then to such as turn towards it amongst the peoples of all faiths. Thus hath the Moon of Utterance risen above the horizon of wisdom and understanding...."

Psalm 22:28 "For kingship belongs to the Lord, and he rules over the nations"

Daniel 2:44 "And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever".

Baha'u'llah is already calling the Pope back to God and that the Pope turn towards all Faiths.

Full Tablet to the Pope - The Summons of the Lord of Hosts | Bahá’í Reference Library

Regards Tony

Trailblazer said:

I just will never understand how people expect other people to blindly believe in the claims they make, that they heard from God. You say so, so there, that PROVES it! Geez...

Click to expand...

I know, but so many weak minded people fall for the false beliefs of ALL religions that claim they came from "god", just because "they say so".

This is the Quandary also faced by Napoleon III, the opening words to napoleon were,

"O King of Paris! Tell the priests to ring the bells no longer. By God, the True One! The Most Mighty Bell hath appeared in the form of Him Who is the Most Great Name, and the fingers of the Will of Thy Lord, the Most Exalted, the Most High, toll it out in the heaven of Immortality in His name, the All-Glorious. Thus have the mighty verses of Thy Lord been again sent down unto thee, that thou mayest arise to remember God, the Creator of earth and heaven, in these days when all the tribes of the earth have mourned, and the foundations of the cities have trembled, and the dust of irreligion hath enwrapped all men, except such as God, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise, was pleased to spare. Say: He Who is the Unconstrained is come, in the clouds of light, that He may quicken the world with the breezes of His name, the Most Merciful, and unite its peoples, and gather all men around this Table which hath been sent down from heaven. Beware that ye deny not the favour of God after it hath been sent down unto you. Better is this for you than that which ye possess; for that which is yours perisheth, whilst that which is with God endureth. He, in truth, ordaineth what He pleaseth. Verily, the breezes of forgiveness have been wafted from the direction of your Lord, the God of Mercy; whoso turneth thereunto shall be cleansed of his sins, and of all pain and sickness. Happy the man that hath turned towards them, and woe betide him that hath turned aside....."

Full Tablet to Napoleon - The Summons of the Lord of Hosts | Bahá’í Reference Library

Indeed Napoleon faced a quandary, that passed him by.

Regards Tony

Now as to Czar Alexander II, this is the opening to the Tablet addresses to Him;

"...O Czar of Russia! Incline thine ear unto the voice of God, the King, the Holy, and turn thou unto Paradise, the Spot wherein abideth He Who, among the Concourse on high, beareth the most excellent titles, and Who, in the kingdom of creation, is called by the name of God, the Effulgent, the All-Glorious. Beware lest thy desire deter thee from turning towards the face of thy Lord, the Compassionate, the Most Merciful. We, verily, have heard the thing for which thou didst supplicate thy Lord, whilst secretly communing with Him. Wherefore, the breeze of My loving-kindness wafted forth, and the sea of My mercy surged, and We answered thee in truth. Thy Lord, verily, is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. Whilst I lay chained and fettered in the prison, one of thy ministers extended Me his aid. Wherefore hath God ordained for thee a station which the knowledge of none can comprehend except His knowledge. Beware lest thou barter away this sublime station. Thy Lord, verily, doeth what He willeth. What He pleaseth will God abrogate or confirm, and with Him is the knowledge of all things in a Guarded Tablet.

Beware lest thy sovereignty withhold thee from Him Who is the Supreme Sovereign. He, verily, is come with His Kingdom, and all the atoms cry aloud: “Lo! The Lord is come in His great majesty!” He Who is the Father is come, and the Son, in the holy vale, crieth out: “Here am I, here am I, O Lord, My God!”, whilst Sinai circleth round the House, and the Burning Bush calleth aloud: “The All-Bounteous is come mounted upon the clouds! Blessed is he that draweth nigh unto Him, and woe betide them that are far away'...."

Full tablet to Czar Alexander II - The Summons of the Lord of Hosts | Bahá’í Reference Library

Those 3 will show that the True King is not an earthly King, it is the Manifestation that finds the hearts of men, men that are willing to make the world a better place, a world where all can live in unity.

Of course one must say, that is what I see in those Words posted above, not all will, but it shows the Quandary is real and will not go away.

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

I ask as a point and as an interest, after all this time, have you taken up the offer to read the Kitab-i-Iqan?

Click to expand...

Kitab-i-Iqan
"Among the Prophets was Noah. For nine hundred and fifty years He prayerfully exhorted His people and summoned them to the haven of security and peace. None, however, heeded His call. Each day they inflicted on His blessed person such pain and suffering that no one believed He could survive. How frequently they denied Him, how malevolently they hinted their suspicion against Him! Thus it hath been revealed: “And as often as a company of His people passed by Him, they derided Him. To them He said: ‘Though ye scoff at us now, we will scoff at you hereafter even as ye scoff at us. In the end ye shall know.’” 3 Long afterward, He several times promised victory to His companions and fixed the hour thereof. But when the hour struck, the divine promise was not fulfilled. This caused a few among the small number of His followers to turn away from Him, and to this testify the records of the best-known books. These you must certainly have perused; if not, undoubtedly you will. Finally, as stated in books and 8 traditions, there remained with Him only forty or seventy-two of His followers. At last from the depth of His being He cried aloud: “Lord! Leave not upon the land a single dweller from among the unbelievers.”

Genesis 5:
1 When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them,
2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose...
4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them...
5 The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.
6 The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled.
7 So the LORD said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.”
8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD...
13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.
14 So make yourself an ark...
17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish...

Then came the flood and all the evil people died. Two very different stories. Where did Baha'u'llah get his version? Do Baha'is believe the Bible version? Was Noah 950 years old when he died. What were the Nephilim? Were they giants? Did the flood really cover all the land? Was Noah and his family the only people left alive on Earth after the flood? I'd expect nothing but "no's" from the Baha'is.