If God is our Father

74x12 · Feb 10, 2020

Iymus said:
Unnecessarily making circular argument. Literally and Metaphorically God is not a man or Son of Man.

Num 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Numbers 23:19 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
19 God [is] not a man -- and lieth, And a son of man -- and repenteth! Hath He said -- and doth He not do [it]? And spoken -- and doth He not confirm it?

In literal Hebrew we can easily see that God is not a man who lies or repents. That doesn't mean Jesus is not God because Jesus is "the truth" as He says "I am the way, the truth and the life ..."

Jesus never lies. Yet God's Word says of men: "let God be true, but every man a liar" So Jesus is clearly the exception because unlike every other man; He never lies.

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. (Matthew 24:35)

Iymus said:
Lastly it does not matter the location of God; whether it be heaven or earth, he receives authority and power from no one because all things are of himself.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Of course, yet in human form He took the power. What you're saying doesn't --at all-- explain Revelation 11:17. Where we see the Almighty takes to Himself great power and reigns. When does the Almighty take power?

Hint* Matthew 28:18

Redemptionsong · Feb 12, 2020

Iymus said:
Big difference between celestials and terrestrials but all things are of and originate with the Heavenly Father himself.

1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

allowed to for being a perfect servant and doing his will.

Luk 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

Christ is the body concerning the new covenant.

authority originates with our Heavenly Father himself; being the only true God.

Unnecessarily making circular argument. Literally and Metaphorically God is not a man or Son of Man.

Num 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
-------------------------

Lastly it does not matter the location of God; whether it be heaven or earth, he receives authority and power from no one because all things are of himself.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Lymus, if you believe that Jesus Christ is your Saviour, do you also recognize him as your shepherd, and your head?

Psalm 23. The LORD is my shepherd;[See Ezekiel 37:24]

Does Jesus Christ not baptize believers with the Holy Spirit [Matthew 3:11]? And once baptized in the Holy Spirit, is a believer not drawn into a new relationship with God? Does the suffering believer not become an adopted son, and joint-heir with Christ [Christ was an heir on earth; Romans 8:15-17]?

Jesus Christ stopped being an heir to the throne when he was given dominion. When did this happen? Daniel 7:13,14 tells us that this occurred after Jesus' ascension to heaven.

Although God's Kingdom has not reached completion or full extension, Jesus Christ is still the King NOW. Until He returns to establish his kingdom on earth [Ezekiel 7:21,22], we pray, 'Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven. [Matthew 5:10].

This makes our head, the risen Lord, our spiritual Father, because a son is only a son in so far as he has a Father.

Iymus · Feb 12, 2020

Redemptionsong said:
Lymus, if you believe that Jesus Christ is your Saviour, do you also recognize him as your shepherd, and your head?

on a micro level i believe i can say yes but not on a macro level no.

Redemptionsong said:
Does Jesus Christ not baptize believers with the Holy Spirit [Matthew 3:11]?

as do Apostles and disciples if i am not mistaken

Redemptionsong said:
And once baptized in the Holy Spirit, is a believer not drawn into a new relationship with God?

Ideally perhaps

Redemptionsong said:
Does the suffering believer not become an adopted son, and joint-heir with Christ [Christ was an heir on earth; Romans 8:15-17]?

adopted son into the new covenant

Redemptionsong said:
Jesus Christ stopped being an heir to the throne when he was given dominion. When did this happen? Daniel 7:13,14 tells us that this occurred after Jesus' ascension to heaven.

seems contradictory or not well clarified as having authority is as having dominion;

Redemptionsong said:
Although God's Kingdom has not reached completion or full extension, Jesus Christ is still the King NOW. Until He returns to establish his kingdom on earth [Ezekiel 7:21,22], we pray, 'Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven. [Matthew 5:10].

The Son was sent and does the will and work of the only true God.

Redemptionsong · Feb 12, 2020

Iymus said:
on a micro level i believe i can say yes but not on a macro level no.

Sorry, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 'micro' and 'macro' levels.

If Jesus Christ is your shepherd, you are one of his flock. If the Father has made the Son your shepherd, then surely you should serve him.

Ezekiel 34:23,24.'And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.
And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it.'

Ezekiel 37:24 'And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.'

In Ezekiel 34, 'my servant David' [Jesus Christ] is 'a prince among them', whilst in Ezekiel 37 the same servant becomes 'king over them'. The flock 'shall have one shepherd'. So when Jesus Christ is king over them, he must also be LORD [the one shepherd of Psalm 23].

Redemptionsong · Feb 12, 2020

Iymus said:
The Son was sent and does the will and work of the only true God.

The Word is subject to the Will, but both are one in Spirit, if the Spirit is true. This is the basic integrity of a God whom we describe as TRUE. God says what he thinks, and does what he says.

It is clearly wrong to suggest that the Word of God can be anything less than God's express Will.

It is also wrong to suggest that the Word is not OF GOD. Do your words not belong to you?

Was Jesus Christ not the WORD OF GOD? Did he ever do anything that was not his Father's express will? Does everything in the Bible not point us to Jesus Christ as LORD?

Why then should we divert our attention away from Jesus Christ? By following Jesus Christ we are following GOD!

Iymus · Feb 13, 2020

Redemptionsong said:
The Word is subject to the Will, but both are one in Spirit, if the Spirit is true.

Anyone subject to the will and authority of Lord God is one spirit.

Redemptionsong said:
It is clearly wrong to suggest that the Word of God can be anything less than God's express Will.

Joh 12:49 KJV For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Joh 12:50 KJV And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Mat 5:17 KJV Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Deu 18:18 KJV I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
Deu 18:19 KJV And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Redemptionsong said:
It is also wrong to suggest that the Word is not OF GOD. Do your words not belong to you?

Being God and of God are not the same concept. Creation is of God while God is Possessor of Heaven and Earth.

Redemptionsong said:
Was Jesus Christ not the WORD OF GOD? Did he ever do anything that was not his Father's express will?

Not the only true God.

Joh 13:3 KJV Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

Redemptionsong said:
Why then should we divert our attention away from Jesus Christ? By following Jesus Christ we are following GOD!

It seems that By saying that Jesus Christ is our God or Lord God we are saying he came in his own name; therefore rejecting his message and receiving another or god of this world.

Joh 5:42 KJV But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
Joh 5:43 KJV I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Joh 5:44 KJV How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

Joh 8:42 KJV Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 KJV Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

2Co 4:4 KJV In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Iymus · Feb 13, 2020

74x12 said:
In literal Hebrew we can easily see that God is not a man who lies or repents. That doesn't mean Jesus is not God because Jesus is "the truth" as He says "I am the way, the truth and the life ..."

With precepts and understanding it should be clear that God is not a man both metaphorically and literally.

way, truth, and life signifies correct path towards only true God being God our Father or Lord God .

Joh 6:45 KJV It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Jud 1:4 KJV For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

74x12 said:
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. (Matthew 24:35

Joh 12:49 KJV For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Joh 12:50 KJV And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Joh 7:16 KJV Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
Joh 7:17 KJV If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

74x12 said:
Of course, yet in human form He took the power. What you're saying doesn't --at all-- explain Revelation 11:17. Where we see the Almighty takes to Himself great power and reigns. When does the Almighty take power?

Hint* Matthew 28:18

Num 23:19 KJV God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Joh 8:40 KJV But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

Joh 8:42 KJV Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Mat 6:9 KJV After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Mat 6:10 KJV Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Joh 13:3 KJV Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

Redemptionsong · Feb 13, 2020

Iymus said:
Joh 8:42 KJV Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 KJV Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

2Co 4:4 KJV In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Exactly. The Son came from God, and therefore IS the Spirit of God. The Father sent the Son, and together they send the Holy Spirit. This is how God redeems us!

Iymus · Feb 13, 2020

Redemptionsong said:
Exactly. The Son came from God, and therefore IS the Spirit of God.

therefore is not God but came out of our God the only true God.

Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Joh 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

Joh 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
Joh 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

2Jn 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

1Ti 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

Redemptionsong said:
The Father sent the Son, and together they send the Holy Spirit.

On a Macro or Volume of the Book level The Son did not send the Holy Spirit but God our Father who sent his only Begotten Son and his Holy Spirit.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Act 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Redemptionsong said:
This is how God redeems us!

Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
Joh 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

If the Son made himself our God and not his son; seeking his own glory; then it seems unrighteousness is in him and he did his own will and works being his own doctrine.

Joh 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

Joh 19:6 When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him.
Joh 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

Redemptionsong · Feb 13, 2020

Iymus said:
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

..and Jesus Christ. This is because our faith in Jesus Christ can bring eternal life. Did Jesus not say, 'I am the resurrection, and the life:'? [John 11:25]

Iymus · Feb 13, 2020

Redemptionsong said:
..and Jesus Christ. This is because our faith in Jesus Christ can bring eternal life. Did Jesus not say, 'I am the resurrection, and the life:'? [John 11:25]

it seems you want to interpret John 17:3

as

"This is eternal life, that they may know us, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

or

"This is eternal life, that they may know You and Jesus Christ, the only true God, whom You have sent.

instead of

John 17:3 Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,
John 17:2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.
John 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

--------------

Huge emphasis of "us" in Gen 1:26 but seemingly no emphasis of "you" and "only true God" in John 17:3 along with who spoke theses things; I find this interesting.

Clear · Feb 13, 2020

Hi @lymus

I had a simple question about the Opening Post and it's question :

Lymus asked "If God is our Father in Heaven, would we call God fully Man and God?" (Opening post)

Are you asking this question while assuming God the Father is also Jesus the Son? That is, are you asking whether a God (the father) can also be a man (Jesus)? (i.e. can God be a man)

thanks in advance for the clarification.

Clear
τωειεισεω

Iymus · Feb 13, 2020

Clear said:
Are you asking this question while assuming God the Father is also Jesus the Son? That is, are you asking whether a God (the father) can also be a man (Jesus)? (i.e. can God be a man)

I am asking this question assuming that the God of Abraham and his descendants; has never been a man or son of man metaphorically or literally.

Clear · Feb 13, 2020

Hi @lymus

Thank you so much for the clarification.

Clear

Redemptionsong · Feb 14, 2020

Iymus said:
it seems you want to interpret John 17:3

as

"This is eternal life, that they may know us, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

or

"This is eternal life, that they may know You and Jesus Christ, the only true God, whom You have sent.

instead of

John 17:3 Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,
John 17:2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.
John 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

--------------

Huge emphasis of "us" in Gen 1:26 but seemingly no emphasis of "you" and "only true God" in John 17:3 along with who spoke theses things; I find this interesting.

The reason that Jesus Christ is separated by the comma is that he is BOTH God and Man. He cannot be equated with the Spirit alone, when he is dwelling in the flesh.

If you look back to John 17:2 you will see that it is Jesus Christ who 'may give eternal life'. A man cannot do this. Only God can give eternal life.

Iymus · Feb 14, 2020

Redemptionsong said:
If you look back to John 17:2 you will see that it is Jesus Christ who 'may give eternal life'. A man cannot do this. Only God can give eternal life.

Eternal life originates with the only true God being God our Father. God our Father given him power over flesh.

Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
----------------------

The only true God is still God our Father himself.

Joh 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Joh 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Joh 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

Redemptionsong · Feb 15, 2020

Yes, eternal life originates with the Father, but Jesus Christ is God's door.

John 10:1.'Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.'

The hierarchy of authority places you and me below our head, Jesus Christ.
John 5:23.'That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.'

Iymus · Feb 15, 2020

Redemptionsong said:
Yes, eternal life originates with the Father, but Jesus Christ is God's door.

John 10:1.'Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.'

The hierarchy of authority places you and me below our head, Jesus Christ.
John 5:23.'That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.'

The only true God is God our Father himself. God is God himself first and foremost. When it comes to understanding this the verses you posted are not expedient or edifying. As a matter of fact it seems like you are trying to add confusion and make the Son of God the only true God himself;

Redemptionsong · Feb 15, 2020

Iymus said:
The only true God is God our Father himself. God is God himself first and foremost. When it comes to understanding this the verses you posted are not expedient or edifying. As a matter of fact it seems like you are trying to add confusion and make the Son of God the only true God himself;

Jesus Christ is Immanuel, 'God with us'.

It is only through faith in Jesus Christ that you come to the Father. Jesus said so himself, 'no man cometh to the Father but by me'.

In the same chapter of John [John 14] Jesus asks the following question, 'Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.'

You call the Father 'the one true God'. In this case, the one true God dwells in Jesus Christ. Do you not recognize the Spirit of the Father in Jesus Christ?

Iymus · Feb 15, 2020

Redemptionsong said:
Jesus Christ is Immanuel, 'God with us'.

Some say a son of Isaiah in OT is also Immanuel.

In any case:

God with us; through those subject unto his authority, doing his will, speaking his words, and doing his works.

The Son could be said to be Immanuel or even the Greatest Immanuel but the Son is not the only true God. The Son came from the only true God and came in his name.

Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Joh 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
Joh 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Joh 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Joh 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Joh 16:25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
Joh 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
Joh 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
Joh 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
Joh 16:29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
Joh 16:30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
Joh 16:31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

Joh 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

If God is our Father

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