• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

What would falsify your paradigm?

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
The way I see it-- is this. Too many people believe the bible is MAGICAL. And refuse to edit out the worst parts, such as Exodus 21, wherein bible-god describes how to care for, and where to purchase, human slaves. Which we modern folk recognize (mostly) that slavery is immoral, because it does not promote Well Being: both the slave and the slave owner are harmed by slavery.

Another horrific idea the bible promotes, is Scape Goating. Another immoral idea. The idea of using some innocent thing, and brutally killing it, is a horrific idea. Worse, the idea that killing the innocent thing, Magically Absolves you of your Responsibility? Horrible! But the entire NT hinges on this very idea. It's garbage-think.

It literally enables people to go and do terrible things, and then? Get an instant gratification of "Get Out Of Jail Free" no consequences sort of thinking.

Using a scape goat does not promote Well Being.

On the whole? I find the bible akin to a Compost Heap: Sure, you could dig into that mess, looking for an occasional nugget of Sweet Corn. But, is it worth it? No.
Interestingly we hear about sacrifices for instance:
Hosea 6:6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.. (And in various other places)

Over and over the story turns out more complex than it can seem from just one chapter....

So, one would need a very extensive reading to get it all correct.

For example, many think Sodom was destroyed simply because "all" the men of the city, "young and old", came and wanted to rape the two visitors.

A reasonable conclusion. But so incomplete it's just mistaken, even though that incident was an illustration of one factor.

What i typically encounter is prior thinking or viewpoints people assume is correct. Some idea they have heard (often both camps), but which oversimplified the picture into just error. Just wrong. Nothing magical in just more complete reading.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Interestingly we hear about sacrifices for instance:
Hosea 6:6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.. (And in various other places)

Over and over the story turns out more complex than it can seem from just one chapter....

So, one would need a very extensive reading to get it all correct.

For example, many think Sodom was destroyed simply because "all" the men of the city, "young and old", came and wanted to rape the two visitors.

A reasonable conclusion. But so incomplete it's just mistaken, even though that incident was an illustration of one factor.

What i typically encounter is prior thinking or viewpoints people assume is correct. Some idea they have heard (often both camps), but which oversimplified the picture into just error. Just wrong. Nothing magical in just more complete reading.

The Sodom story is often misused by moderns, as a tirade against "them gays". However, since it's in the Hebrew Bible? I will take the words of Hebrew Scholars over Christian ones any day of the week.

What I've heard from Rabbis and similar, was the principle crime of Sodom wasn't sex, it was of Hospitality, or rather, the breaking of Rules of Hospitality. As I understand it, Hospitality was/is of prime importance, and sacrosanct. Lot, as was proper for a Good Hebrew, offered up Hospitality for the strangers, which included protection; being under Lot's Roof, as it were, he was responsible for their safety as well as shelter, food, and so on.

So giving them up to the Mob, would be breaking Hospitality, and to Lot, that was a far more Consequential Crime, than sacrificing his daughters (especially as they were women, and not Persons in their own right, but Property, belonging to Lot-- the bible's pretty clear as to the actual monetary value of males versus females).

Of course, in this Modern Day of Selfishness, and Distrust of Strangers, the old world notions of Hospitality have long since been discarded by the way side.

Just look at the screaming protest, from True Believers™ , anytime someone wants Universal Health Care, or some Social Safety Net for old people, or people down on their luck.....

It seems that Scrooge's "Are there no poor houses? No work prisons? Then let them die, and decrease the surplus population!" has taken precedence among the Visibly Religious, of late.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
How much do you want to bank as being relevant and how much not? Many psychics appear to have the same view - I was right such and such percent of the time. I could predict all sorts of things and many will turn out to be true.

the predictions governing the fall of the Jewish nation, their exile
and return to take back their nation with the sword when the Gentiles
time is finished seems fairly well spot on - so far.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Regardless of what your paradigm is, whether theistic or atheistic, religious or irreligious, I think it's an interesting thought exercise to consider not just what you believe and why, but what evidence or argument could, theoretically, falsify your paradigm (if anything).

Here is a place for you to say what would convince you that you'd got it wrong - whatever your POV.

Coming from an atheistic point of view, I have no idea what would convince me of such a fantastical claim as the existence of a god. But the god would know what evidence is required, so the ball would be in his court to provide the evidence if he wants belief.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
the predictions governing the fall of the Jewish nation, their exile
and return to take back their nation with the sword when the Gentiles
time is finished seems fairly well spot on - so far.

Wishes are written down and some come true, or close enough, is that really evidence of prediction?
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Wishes are written down and some come true, or close enough, is that really evidence of prediction?

This wasn't a "wish"
far from it.
As far back as Jacob, called into Egypt his son Joseph,
spoke of there one day being a Hebrew nation but it
would end with the coming of the Messiah.
Many Old Testament authors spoke of the destruction
of Israel, and a few, like Isaiah and Ezekiel, spoke of
them coming back a second time to claim their land
when, as Jesus put it, the Gentile's time is finished.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
This wasn't a "wish"
far from it.
As far back as Jacob, called into Egypt his son Joseph,
spoke of there one day being a Hebrew nation but it
would end with the coming of the Messiah.
Many Old Testament authors spoke of the destruction
of Israel, and a few, like Isaiah and Ezekiel, spoke of
them coming back a second time to claim their land
when, as Jesus put it, the Gentile's time is finished.

You are assuming that texts from the past are original and not changed over time - to make such seem as they want - I'm a bit more sceptical about such things.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
You are assuming that texts from the past are original and not changed over time - to make such seem as they want - I'm a bit more sceptical about such things.

Not much chance of that. We have some texts going back 200 years before Jesus
with the Dead Sea Scrolls.
After the return from Babylon the Old Testament became "canonical" meaning
nothing was to be changed as it was sacred. The book of Daniel was such a
Babylonian age book, and it spoke of Rome destroying Jerusalem, the temple
and the Messiah. The Jews of Jesus' time knew all this.
There's nothing to "wish" for in these sad texts. And today you are living in a
time of a second Exodus.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Not much chance of that. We have some texts going back 200 years before Jesus
with the Dead Sea Scrolls.
After the return from Babylon the Old Testament became "canonical" meaning
nothing was to be changed as it was sacred. The book of Daniel was such a
Babylonian age book, and it spoke of Rome destroying Jerusalem, the temple
and the Messiah. The Jews of Jesus' time knew all this.
There's nothing to "wish" for in these sad texts. And today you are living in a
time of a second Exodus.

I think many who have studied such religious texts would not agree as to their perfect nature. Not that I am inclined to such, since I consider such things a waste of time (for me) - as it would be for me to do the same for all other religious texts.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
I think many who have studied such religious texts would not agree as to their perfect nature. Not that I am inclined to such, since I consider such things a waste of time (for me) - as it would be for me to do the same for all other religious texts.

I hear people say that - it's what I call religious equivalency.
ie Jesus is no different to Mohammed, for instance, without
any attempt to test that claim.
It's like "moral equivalency" where some person can do some
thing really bad but it's okay because morals are for personal
interpretation only.
And some go further - Western ideas of liberal democracy
are just another form of government. Western science is
just another way of seeking truths about the universe.
Same for Western medicine etc..
I am not into all that. I believe the Gospels happened as
stated by the seven authors. And I believe Jesus is the
suffering Messiah mentioned so often in the Old Testament.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
I believe the Gospels happened as stated by the seven authors. And I believe Jesus is the suffering Messiah mentioned so often in the Old Testament.

And plenty of others believe the same no doubt about their religious beliefs, and evidence for such. Not see the problems with this - that all cannot be right? That is, unless we have a universe tailored to each individual. Nothing I will ever say will alter the views of those who do have such faith and I know it. Perhaps one of the few things I do know.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Native said:
I rather would say the bible is hugely misinterpreted regarding the creation story but it very well could be consistent with other other cultural religions regarding the story of creation.
Actually? The entirety of the bible's various stories, are plagiarized from older myths, cultures and Epic Stories.

We know this, because we have elements from the older cultures, including their myths. We can easily see the elements in common with the bible's myths, and the older culture's myths.

Mythic Stories seldom arise out of a vacuum.
Yes, as I said: The biblical content of the creation is consistent with other cultural religions and NOT just plagiarized - but it is hugely misinterpreted by ancient priests and scholars who have forgotten the astronomical and cosmological implications in the creation myths.

The biblical and cultural/global similarities in the creation story is logically as they all concerns the very same creation. But some religions are much more cosmologically described/symbolized and explained compared to the de-mythified Abrahamic religions.

As this topic is about changes of paradigms, I think it would be something of a human paradigm change to percieve all religions to basically be ONE.
 
Last edited:

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
The Sodom story is often misused by moderns, as a tirade against "them gays". However, since it's in the Hebrew Bible? I will take the words of Hebrew Scholars over Christian ones any day of the week.

What I've heard from Rabbis and similar, was the principle crime of Sodom wasn't sex, it was of Hospitality, or rather, the breaking of Rules of Hospitality. As I understand it, Hospitality was/is of prime importance, and sacrosanct. Lot, as was proper for a Good Hebrew, offered up Hospitality for the strangers, which included protection; being under Lot's Roof, as it were, he was responsible for their safety as well as shelter, food, and so on.

So giving them up to the Mob, would be breaking Hospitality, and to Lot, that was a far more Consequential Crime, than sacrificing his daughters (especially as they were women, and not Persons in their own right, but Property, belonging to Lot-- the bible's pretty clear as to the actual monetary value of males versus females).

Of course, in this Modern Day of Selfishness, and Distrust of Strangers, the old world notions of Hospitality have long since been discarded by the way side.

Just look at the screaming protest, from True Believers™ , anytime someone wants Universal Health Care, or some Social Safety Net for old people, or people down on their luck.....

It seems that Scrooge's "Are there no poor houses? No work prisons? Then let them die, and decrease the surplus population!" has taken precedence among the Visibly Religious, of late.

Bob. When you Google these things you will mostly likely encounter the most clicked
on sites - and these are usually the liberal ones.
Truth be told there is no question that in Hebrew society homosexuality attracted the
death penalty. There's all this clever "Greek translations say ...." to get around this.
Adultery was the death penalty too. Any form of "fornication", ie mostly sexual acts
outside of heterosexual married consensual sex was fornication - death penalty.
Faux Greek translators have largely rewritten the whole bible, but if you know Greek
you can see the way in which words have been twisted,.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Native said:
I rather would say the bible is hugely misinterpreted regarding the creation story but it very well could be consistent with other other cultural religions regarding the story of creation.

Yes, as I said: The biblical content of the creation is consistent with other cultural religions and NOT just plagiarized - but it is hugely misinterpreted by ancient priests and scholars who have forgotten the astronomical and cosmological implications in the creation myths..

Incorrect. The bible is really no older than around 500 BCE. We have evidence of other, older cultures that are thousands of years older. That proves the bible was plagiarized, pretty much in it's entirety. Nothing is new within it's pages.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Bob. When you Google these things you will mostly likely encounter the most clicked
on sites - and these are usually the liberal ones.
Truth be told there is no question that in Hebrew society homosexuality attracted the
death penalty. There's all this clever "Greek translations say ...." to get around this.
Adultery was the death penalty too. Any form of "fornication", ie mostly sexual acts
outside of heterosexual married consensual sex was fornication - death penalty.
Faux Greek translators have largely rewritten the whole bible, but if you know Greek
you can see the way in which words have been twisted,.

Nope. I'll go with what the Rabbi's say-- and never-ever what Genuine Christian Bigots twist it into being.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Nope. I'll go with what the Rabbi's say-- and never-ever what Genuine Christian Bigots twist it into being.

So you have chosen an interpretation to suit society.
Even though most Jews don't agree with this guy.
And Greeks don't' agree either.
And you would have been killed during bible times
for doing these things.
Fair enough - but don't say it's "biblical" just say it's
"liberalism."
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
The Rainbow Serpent is surely a divine concept for the Australians and other cultures. Read about Mythical Snakes here. They are not "beings" but cosmological concepts of creation.
Shesha (the thousand-fanged king of cobras) and brother to many other Gods (sun included - they were all progeny of Sage Kashyapa, one of the Adams in Hinduism), is a constant companion of Lord Vishnu. In the form of his younger brother, Lakshmana in the Rama story, and as his elder brother, in the Krishna story. Balarama.
Ananta Himalayas: SAGE KASHYAPA
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I wonder why Prue Phillip is so besotted about the Jews. He is not one. And Jews have nothing to do with Jesus.
But do you HOLD THIS STORY TO BE TRUE?
Of course, Not. I am a strong atheist and I do not believe in any God or Goddess. I do not believe in most things that the theists believe in, like soul, heaven, hell, judgment, deliverance, rebirth or even creation. These are "very clearly" mythologies, nice stories, especially for children. Generally people grow out of them, but some don't.
 
Last edited:
Top