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What would falsify your paradigm?

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Really, you found the bones of Mr Rainbow?
You know what I know because I gave you the link.
Maybe Rainbow said something like in the past people's came from Africa and crossed into Australasia when the seas were lower and boat building was well developed. And maybe said serpent can give the whole story of the various tribes of peoples who
spread out over the continent. And then of course, the coming of new tribes of white people and the end of the aborigines for many centuries. THEN I will take note of the Rainbow Serpent, because he/she has authority like the bible.
Here you are badmouthing a divine being who's been around maybe twice as long as Yahweh, maybe 15 times as long. Your choice of god is a relative upstart, a Yahweh-come-lately, who seems more credible to you because his followers used writing.

But all claims of magic, prophecy, the supernatural, are off-the-scale improbable ─ not even one authenticated demonstration anywhere, not even one coherent hypothesis about how magic is done or what 'supernatural' can mean other than 'imaginary' ─ and all gods are ideas, concepts, not real beings, as shown by the way every culture has one or more, of a great variety of kinds; and as far as I'm aware, they all lack a definition of 'god' such that we could tell whether any real being is a god or not.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
You know what I know because I gave you the link.
Here you are badmouthing a divine being who's been around maybe twice as long as Yahweh, maybe 15 times as long. Your choice of god is a relative upstart, a Yahweh-come-lately, who seems more credible to you because his followers used writing.

But all claims of magic, prophecy, the supernatural, are off-the-scale improbable ─ not even one authenticated demonstration anywhere, not even one coherent hypothesis about how magic is done or what 'supernatural' can mean other than 'imaginary' ─ and all gods are ideas, concepts, not real beings, as shown by the way every culture has one or more, of a great variety of kinds; and as far as I'm aware, they all lack a definition of 'god' such that we could tell whether any real being is a god or not.

The date of a deity is not the issue. Abraham was told to "come out" from his religion
and culture. He was shown that practices of those cultures was not acceptable, nor
should he allow his children to marry into them. The bible doesn't boast that worship of
God predates other worship. Far from it.
The rainbow serpent is not divine nor is it a "being." We both know that. Same too for Zeus.
There's that old saying that extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. There
was this European monarch, going back centuries (can't recall his name, alas) who, when
he was asked about his belief in God, said that one thing convinced him of God and that
was the continued existence of the Jews - it shouldn't make sense after all this time. The
fact is the bible calls the Jew "God's people" (a metaphor actually - they are no less or
more than anyone else) and that they would survive though being small in number,
powerful in enterprise and hated by everyone. I suppose having them return to Israel
would have been a bridge too far for that king, but that happened too. This is the power
of the bible - it can be predictive.
What claim does the Rainbow Serpent make? How does it change people's lives?
What historic power did it wield? What its world view? What does it say about eternity?
And so on, so forth. Stories about Zeus and the serpent demonstrate the DIFFERENCE
between them and the bible - NOT SIMILARITIES.

And today, another outpost of ancient Israel, mentioned in the bible, has been found
Was the Bible right? Inscription may confirm ancient Israel’s borders
 
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blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The date of a deity is not the issue.
So there were no gods before c. 1500 BCE? A mountain of easily authenticated history is against you.
Abraham was told to "come out" from his religion and culture. He was shown that practices of those cultures was not acceptable, nor should he allow his children to marry into them. The bible doesn't boast that worship of God predates other worship. Far from it.
How could it? It recognizes the existence of other gods freely until the Captivity. Then there's a policy shift, a new political philosophy and theology.
The rainbow serpent is not divine nor is it a "being." We both know that. Same too for Zeus.
But the point you keep missing is, same for Yahweh.
There's that old saying that extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. There was this European monarch, going back centuries (can't recall his name, alas) who, when he was asked about his belief in God, said that one thing convinced him of God and that was the continued existence of the Jews - it shouldn't make sense after all this time.
Explain to me why not. After all, the Copts still exist, speaking a language descended from ancient Egyptian, the Greeks and Italians can make the same claim. It's not peculiar to the Jews. The Mandaeans still worship John the Baptist, and if you want exiles, consider the Romany in Europe, the Rohingya in Burma, and so on.
The fact is the bible calls the Jew "God's people" (a metaphor actually - they are no less or
more than anyone else)
Sweet Prue, do a favor for yourself if not others, and read your danged bible: Genesis 17 for a start. The Jews are the only people the God of the bible ever says are His Chosen. The Christians, notably Paul, look for political ways round that, but it's 2020 and the fact remains.
and that they would survive though being small in number
You cling rather desperately to that datum. It's neither unique nor religiously informative, though it's of considerable sociological interest.
powerful in enterprise and hated by everyone.
Hated, persecuted, robbed and murdered by the Christians in particular and the Muslims in general, but a matter of indifference to the Hindus, Buddhists, Shintoists, Confucians ─ and as I understand it, not even mentioned by the followers of the Rainbow Serpent.
I suppose having them return to Israel would have been a bridge too far for that king, but that happened too. This is the power of the bible - it can be predictive.
You're a Christian. It's your collective hatred and rules of exclusion that gave the Jews their identity.
What claim does the Rainbow Serpent make? How does it change people's lives?
What did Yahweh ever do for the Chinese? The Hindus? The Buddhists? Be specific, please.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
So there were no gods before c. 1500 BCE? A mountain of easily authenticated history is against you.
How could it? It recognizes the existence of other gods freely until the Captivity. Then there's a policy shift, a new political philosophy and theology.
But the point you keep missing is, same for Yahweh.
Explain to me why not. After all, the Copts still exist, speaking a language descended from ancient Egyptian, the Greeks and Italians can make the same claim. It's not peculiar to the Jews. The Mandaeans still worship John the Baptist, and if you want exiles, consider the Romany in Europe, the Rohingya in Burma, and so on.
Sweet Prue, do a favor for yourself if not others, and read your danged bible: Genesis 17 for a start. The Jews are the only people the God of the bible ever says are His Chosen. The Christians, notably Paul, look for political ways round that, but it's 2020 and the fact remains.
You cling rather desperately to that datum. It's neither unique nor religiously informative, though it's of considerable sociological interest.
Hated, persecuted, robbed and murdered by the Christians in particular and the Muslims in general, but a matter of indifference to the Hindus, Buddhists, Shintoists, Confucians ─ and as I understand it, not even mentioned by the followers of the Rainbow Serpent.
You're a Christian. It's your collective hatred and rules of exclusion that gave the Jews their identity.
What did Yahweh ever do for the Chinese? The Hindus? The Buddhists? Be specific, please.

The Jew is fundamentally Different to all other people.
Our own Jewish family could have come from those driven out of Israel by Rome (they
aren't very business oriented) and who settled in the greater Roman Empire before
settling in Portugal. They were driven out of these at the time of Columbus and settled in
England.
Jews should have a large population of at least the USA today in size. But they are still
"small". China had, what, 20 million at the time of Jesus and today nearly 1.5 billion. The
Jews were about quarter the size of China.
The theme of the bible is an insignificant people in an insignificantly tiny land (set amidst
the nations to prove them) who would prosper against the odds, and be exiled, enslaved,
killed but return twice (Isaiah) And what nation will bless the Jew will be blessed and who
curses the Jew will be cursed.
And what the bible means by that, as Jesus often said, is the will be "few" who are saved.
A tiny minority in the earth. Just like the Jew.
Make sense? Absolutely not.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
So my subjective, individual, relative definition of normative ethics as a rule:
In the abstract as a rule all humans are sacred and should be treated with dignity and worth. This is the ideal, what you ought to aim for. In ethics it is to start with a mentality towards other humans as being equal to you as per the abstract rule. That is the objective part.
I'd call that a subjective rule but that's not relevant. Your rule is "treat humans with dignity". When you don',t you act immoral. Imagine a cynic with the rule "treat humans with brutal honesty". If he doesn't, he acts immorally.
No matter what your rule is, from the fact that you have a rule, it follows that you should apply that rule towards everyone equally.
Now the problem is for all situations involving 2 humans or more in practice humans are not equal. They never are. They are individual and no 2 situations are equally the same, because they happen in time, space and change with culture, technology and changes in humans over time(psychology/physiology) and so on
Does time and circumstance allow you to treat humans other as with dignity? If it does, I accuse you of immorality.
Or is "time and space" a higher level rule?
PS as for society that is how democracy is better. It is self adjusting. No law is written in stone and adapt. It is the same.for rights; e.g. freedom of speech is not absolute and so on. There are never equal situations, there are similarities and difference in practice.
There is a difference between adjusting the rules after consideration and ignoring a rule when it is convenient.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Yeah, philosophically "God" is a placeholder for "objective reality independent of the mind" or another similar version.
Regarding the Abrahamic perception and interpretation of "god" yes.
Otherwise, in real religions, "gods and goddesses" are the mythical descriptions for "forces of creation" and for transformative motions everywhere in space.
"Philosophically" determines much more than your "psychological perceptions".
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
I suppose that what those writers and I have in common is that we don't think historical method includes magic, ghosts, goblins or the usual trappings of superstition. Thus we agree that Yahweh is no more entitled to magic than Zeus, or Mazda, or Brahma, or (in Melbourne) the Rainbow Serpent (though it's true that my two favorite deities are Ganesha ─ everyone loves elephants, and I've never worked out why Jesus chose to come to earth as a human ─ and the Rainbow Serpent).
Quite so indeed :) And even the Australian Rainbow Serpent computes to the biblical serpent in the garden of Eden: They BOTH refers to the creation as such.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Whereas I do not pretend to know the bible perfectly? I do know it's internally inconsistent.
I rather would say the bible is hugely misinterpreted regarding the creation story but it very well could be consistent with other other cultural religions regarding the story of creation.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Jew is fundamentally Different to all other people.
Our own Jewish family could have come from those driven out of Israel by Rome (they
aren't very business oriented) and who settled in the greater Roman Empire before
settling in Portugal. They were driven out of these at the time of Columbus and settled in
England.
Jews should have a large population of at least the USA today in size. But they are still
"small". China had, what, 20 million at the time of Jesus and today nearly 1.5 billion. The
Jews were about quarter the size of China.
The theme of the bible is an insignificant people in an insignificantly tiny land (set amidst
the nations to prove them) who would prosper against the odds, and be exiled, enslaved,
killed but return twice (Isaiah) And what nation will bless the Jew will be blessed and who
curses the Jew will be cursed.
And what the bible means by that, as Jesus often said, is the will be "few" who are saved.
A tiny minority in the earth. Just like the Jew.
Make sense? Absolutely not.
Nope, none of it, no sense at all. I don't know why you waste time on it. If you're waiting for something mystic to turn up, please don't hold your breath.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Only for the times in which it was written - and the general observations about the human condition.

A lot in the bible didn't make sense "back then" but does today, and visa versa.
Says in the bible that life came out of the sea. Sounded crazy to them, but not
to us. The Jews returning home to Israel "a second time" when they hadn't left
the first time sounded crazy. And the returning Jews will still crazy to people
right up until the early 1900's.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
A lot in the bible didn't make sense "back then" but does today, and visa versa.
Says in the bible that life came out of the sea. Sounded crazy to them, but not
to us. The Jews returning home to Israel "a second time" when they hadn't left
the first time sounded crazy. And the returning Jews will still crazy to people
right up until the early 1900's.

How much do you want to bank as being relevant and how much not? Many psychics appear to have the same view - I was right such and such percent of the time. I could predict all sorts of things and many will turn out to be true.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
The Rainbow Serpent is surely a divine concept for the Australians and other cultures. Read about Mythical Snakes here. They are not "beings" but cosmological concepts of creation.
Like Shesha (Naga) in Hinduism. Shesha - remainder. When the universe is dissolved, what remains is Shesha.

Sheshashayi Vishnu (Lord Vishnu reclining on Shesha the serpent)
padmanabha_swami01.jpg
 

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
Regardless of what your paradigm is, whether theistic or atheistic, religious or irreligious, I think it's an interesting thought exercise to consider not just what you believe and why, but what evidence or argument could, theoretically, falsify your paradigm (if anything).

Here is a place for you to say what would convince you that you'd got it wrong - whatever your POV.

Evidence. The wilder the claim, the more evidence I would require.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Instead of a big overarching theme, which if you can see it, is even similar in manner, big conclusion style, alike or parallel like...blaming Jews for all the problems of Germany in the 1920s... -- they are the bad ones -- like that. Instead of that attempt for the Big Conclusion.... I suggest very much to take 1 single thing (not 5 or 9), but really just 1, alone, patiently, and learn that full context and full situation, and then find out if it really is just like what you thought. (Ranters will try to snow us with 15 things in a list, to try to prevent any examination (it's almost like Trump, who constantly diverts attention from people looking at something he did wrong)) I'm perfectly willing to give help on one thing at a time, if you want, mutually. Of course, no one can make you want to investigate like that. You'd have to want to on your own. Here's a convenient thread even for it:
Ask me stuff about the bible?

The way I see it-- is this. Too many people believe the bible is MAGICAL. And refuse to edit out the worst parts, such as Exodus 21, wherein bible-god describes how to care for, and where to purchase, human slaves. Which we modern folk recognize (mostly) that slavery is immoral, because it does not promote Well Being: both the slave and the slave owner are harmed by slavery.

Another horrific idea the bible promotes, is Scape Goating. Another immoral idea. The idea of using some innocent thing, and brutally killing it, is a horrific idea. Worse, the idea that killing the innocent thing, Magically Absolves you of your Responsibility? Horrible! But the entire NT hinges on this very idea. It's garbage-think.

It literally enables people to go and do terrible things, and then? Get an instant gratification of "Get Out Of Jail Free" no consequences sort of thinking.

Using a scape goat does not promote Well Being.

On the whole? I find the bible akin to a Compost Heap: Sure, you could dig into that mess, looking for an occasional nugget of Sweet Corn. But, is it worth it? No.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
I rather would say the bible is hugely misinterpreted regarding the creation story but it very well could be consistent with other other cultural religions regarding the story of creation.

Actually? The entirety of the bible's various stories, are plagiarized from older myths, cultures and Epic Stories.

We know this, because we have elements from the older cultures, including their myths. We can easily see the elements in common with the bible's myths, and the older culture's myths.

Mythic Stories seldom arise out of a vacuum.
 
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