The truth behind Ron Wyatt's archaeological discoveries.

sooda · Feb 7, 2020

Redemptionsong said:
But Jesus did claim to be the Messiah. And he did fulfil the Law that you claim is just a myth.

The arguments against Luke, Mark and Paul are without foundation, not because they may not have met Jesus in the flesh and blood, but because their authority to pen scripture comes from the Holy Spirit. If this were not the case, it would have been impossible for Jesus to have said 'scripture cannot be broken' [John 10:35]. It is God that unites scripture in one unbroken Word.

Did Jesus make that claim?

Jesus Never Claimed to Be the Messiah | Jewish Voice ...
www.jewishvoice.org/learn/jesus-never-claimed-be...
Jesus Never Claimed to Be the Messiah Many Jewish People believe that Jesus was a rabbi, a teacher, or even a prophet but that He never claimed to be the Messiah. They believe that it was His followers who deified Him and claimed He was the Messiah.
Jesus’ Claim to Be the Messiah – The Bart Ehrman Blog
ehrmanblog.org/jesus-claim-to-be-the-messiah
Jesus was considered the messiah by his followers after his death, so much so that “Christ” became the most common designation for him. Nothing about his crucifixion, or the belief in his resurrection, would have led anyone to think he was the messiah (since the messiah was not supposed to be raised from the dead,...

Redemptionsong · Feb 7, 2020

sooda said:
Did Jesus make that claim?

Jesus Never Claimed to Be the Messiah | Jewish Voice ...
www.jewishvoice.org/learn/jesus-never-claimed-be...
Jesus Never Claimed to Be the Messiah Many Jewish People believe that Jesus was a rabbi, a teacher, or even a prophet but that He never claimed to be the Messiah. They believe that it was His followers who deified Him and claimed He was the Messiah.

Jesus’ Claim to Be the Messiah – The Bart Ehrman Blog
ehrmanblog.org/jesus-claim-to-be-the-messiah
Jesus was considered the messiah by his followers after his death, so much so that “Christ” became the most common designation for him. Nothing about his crucifixion, or the belief in his resurrection, would have led anyone to think he was the messiah (since the messiah was not supposed to be raised from the dead,...

You are not likely to find evidence of Jesus being the Messiah on sites where people don't acknowledge the New Testament as scripture!

Matthew 26:31,32.'Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad [quoting Zechariah 13:7].
But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee.'

These references [Zechariah and Matthew] can only be applied to the Messiah, and Jesus was saying that that he was the One.

You might also like to check out Matthew 21:1-5. Jesus asks his disciples to fetch a colt so that he can fulfil the scripture [Zechariah 9:9], 'Behold thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ***, and a colt the foal of an ***.'
This was a prophecy that was applied solely to the coming Messiah. Jesus commanded that it apply to himself.

Just two of many examples.

sooda · Feb 7, 2020

Redemptionsong said:
You are not likely to find evidence of Jesus being the Messiah on sites where people don't acknowledge the New Testament as scripture!

Matthew 26:31,32.'Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad [quoting Zechariah 13:7].
But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee.'

These references [Zechariah and Matthew] can only be applied to the Messiah, and Jesus was saying that that he was the One.

You might also like to check out Matthew 21:1-5. Jesus asks his disciples to fetch a colt so that he can fulfil the scripture [Zechariah 9:9], 'Behold thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ***, and a colt the foal of an ***.'
This was a prophecy that was applied solely to the coming Messiah. Jesus commanded that it apply to himself.

Just two of many examples.

The problem is that in their zeal Christians have hijacked Jewish scripture to PROVE Jesus...as if Jesus wasn't enough ...

All Jews rode donkeys.. Horses in Palestine were very rare.. Only a few Roman officers had horses.

Wandering Monk · Feb 7, 2020

Redemptionsong said:
Jesus wasn't talking about a mythical creature, he was talking about himself!

Jesus believed the Torah prophesied the coming of Christ, and Jesus claimed to be the Christ. Was he deluded, or was he making a genuine claim?

Or someone put words in his mouth. Did George Washington actually say "I cannot tell a lie. I did it." Did he really toss a coin across the Potomac? Was King Arthur actually killed by Mordred?

Wandering Monk · Feb 7, 2020

And why rule out the possibility that Jesus WAS deluded or lunatic?

Redemptionsong · Feb 7, 2020

sooda said:
The problem is that in their zeal Christians have hijacked Jewish scripture to PROVE Jesus...as if Jesus wasn't enough ...

All Jews rode donkeys.. Horses in Palestine were very rare.. Only a few Roman officers had horses.

Sooda, this is nonsense. Jesus was a Jew, and the Jews have always been the guardians of scripture. Christians are told that the Old Testament scriptures are for their learning. It is necessary to read all the scriptures to fully understand the revelation of God. Dislocating the Old from the New has the effect of increasing the chance of heresy.

There is no reason to believe that the 'times of the Gentiles' would even have happened had it not been for the Tanakh. Wherever Paul preached the gospel of grace, he used the scriptures to convince his hearers that Christ was the central figure in God's plan of redemption, and that scripture had prophesied his coming.

The [temporary] rejection of Jesus by mainstream Judaism was itself prophesied.
John 1:11. 'He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:' [John 1:11;12.]

Redemptionsong · Feb 7, 2020

Wandering Monk said:
Or someone put words in his mouth. Did George Washington actually say "I cannot tell a lie. I did it." Did he really toss a coin across the Potomac? Was King Arthur actually killed by Mordred?

Jesus was looked upon as a teacher and authority by his followers. His followers did not have the power or understanding that he exhibited. The only one putting words into Jesus' mouth was His Father in heaven!

Redemptionsong · Feb 7, 2020

Wandering Monk said:
And why rule out the possibility that Jesus WAS deluded or lunatic?

Well, now, this requires a long and patient search for the truth.

I would say, in a sound bite, that the Tanakh prepares the way for the coming Messiah. Every single word in the Tanakh is necessary for an understanding of who Jesus was, and what his coming would mean.

Ancient Soul · Feb 7, 2020

Redemptionsong said:
I beg to differ. I do not believe the Bible to be a book of myth. Not every word of scripture is to be understood literally, but this does not make the Bible a book of myth.

The story in the bible is a man made myth based upon other PREVIOUS man-"god" pagan myths. That's why it's such a convoluted mess.

Furthermore, I have been blessed with having a most profound spiritual life after having an experience with death with my soul going to what most call "Heaven" before being returned to my former body and life. And during that visit and all thru-out my entire life God has always answered my spiritual questions in a clear, concise, and all encompassing manner. So there is no way you or anybody else will ever convince me that he had anything to do with that total mess of lies about himself. That could have only come from the feeble demented minds of MAN.

Redemptionsong · Feb 7, 2020

Ancient Soul said:
The story in the bible is a man made myth based upon other PREVIOUS man-"god" pagan myths. That's why it's such a convoluted mess.

Furthermore, I have been blessed with having a most profound spiritual life after having an experience with death with my soul going to what most call "Heaven" before being returned to my former body and life. And during that visit and all thru-out my entire life God has always answered my spiritual questions in a clear, concise, and all encompassing manner. So there is no way you or anybody else will ever convince me that he had anything to do with that total mess of lies about himself. That could have only come from the feeble demented minds of MAN.

Well, I don't believe the Bible is a 'convoluted mess' or 'man made myth'. There's a cohesion, truth, and beauty to the Bible that I find in no other book.

Exactly which parts of the Bible have led you to think this way?

Ancient Soul · Feb 7, 2020

Redemptionsong said:
I have never had this proven to me, so maybe you can supply the proof.

So typical.

Let me guess, are you a Christian?

As only a Christian would NEVER go find out if something was not true about their mythology.

It only takes a few seconds to type in Ron Wyatt hoax to do an Internet search and you would have been flooded with all the proof you needed to see what a fraud he was. But nooooo, you just could not see the truth of his fraudmanship.

Well, take off your blinders and see for yourself, here is just a sampling:

Ron Wyatt: Collosal Fraud | ScienceBlogs

Ron Wyatt Archaeological Research Fraud Documentation (WAR, W.A.R.)

Special Report: Amazing “Ark” Exposé

Ron Wyatt, Honest?, Or Deceitful Fraud?, #2 | Clifton Emahiser's Watchman's Teaching Ministries

Ron Wyatt, the "Indiana Jones" of the SDA Church

https://emahiser.christogenea.org/PDF/Wyatt4.pdf

Ron Wyatt Exposed

Ancient Soul · Feb 7, 2020

Redemptionsong said:
Well, I don't believe the Bible is a 'convoluted mess' or 'man made myth'. There's a cohesion, truth, and beauty to the Bible that I find in no other book.

Exactly which parts of the Bible have led you to think this way?

WOW!!!!

You have obviously never even read the entire bible.

Most of the bible has nothing to do with anything directly or indirectly pertaining to the jesus myth.

Most of the bible is filled with cubits gibberish, fake historical references about mythical wars, places and people, mindless stories with no point what so ever, people's lineage which serves no purpose, etc, etc, etc...

Depending upon which corrupted version of the bible you use, there are apx. 783,137 words in the bible. Now anyone can read it from start to finish and they will NOT find even ONE good clearly written description of what a soul even is. Now since "saving" everyone's "soul" is at the very heart of the Christian mythology, with it's some 2,000 years of beatings, torture, death and destruction unleashed upon the world to force their beliefs upon the world, you would think their "god" would at least tel them WHAT it really is they are "saving".

Furthermore, nor is there anything truly spiritual described in any of the 783,137 meaningless words in the bible.

Not only is there NO description of what a soul really is, there is also nothing about the SPIRITUAL characteristics of their "god" (The FATHER), his judgement process, what "Heaven" is really like, in what state they will exist as there, what they will be doing thru-out all eternity, etc.

So again:

"Furthermore, I have been blessed with having a most profound spiritual life after having an experience with death with my soul going to what most call "Heaven" before being returned to my former body and life. And during that visit and all thru-out my entire life God has always answered my spiritual questions in a clear, concise, and all encompassing manner. So there is no way you or anybody else will ever convince me that he had anything to do with that total mess of lies about himself. That could have only come from the feeble demented minds of MAN."

Now why would God impart all this to me and withhold it all from you Christians?

Why does he just give you gibberish and lies?

(Hint - Because MAN was entirely behind the writing of the jesus myth.)

Redemptionsong · Feb 8, 2020

Ancient Soul said:
So typical.

Let me guess, are you a Christian?

As only a Christian would NEVER go find out if something was not true about their mythology.

It only takes a few seconds to type in Ron Wyatt hoax to do an Internet search and you would have been flooded with all the proof you needed to see what a fraud he was. But nooooo, you just could not see the truth of his fraudmanship.

Well, take off your blinders and see for yourself, here is just a sampling:

Ron Wyatt: Collosal Fraud | ScienceBlogs

Ron Wyatt Archaeological Research Fraud Documentation (WAR, W.A.R.)

Special Report: Amazing “Ark” Exposé

Ron Wyatt, Honest?, Or Deceitful Fraud?, #2 | Clifton Emahiser's Watchman's Teaching Ministries

Ron Wyatt, the "Indiana Jones" of the SDA Church

https://emahiser.christogenea.org/PDF/Wyatt4.pdf

Ron Wyatt Exposed

I decided to check out the last of these links, and was confronted with a site calling itself remnantofgod.org. After reading some of their articles, I looked them up on rationalwiki. It said:

'The ministry appears to be the work of two men named Nicholas and Craig, paranoid conspiracy theorists who consider mainstream Seventh-day Adventism and all other Christian denominations to be apostate. Nicholas quickly veers off into incomprehensible green ink that use typical kook arguments in an attempt to prove that his religion is true and every other religion is false.'

So whose views are we to believe?

What is worryingly clear from this exchange is that gathering objective and evidence-based information is hard when using the Internet.

Redemptionsong · Feb 8, 2020

Ancient Soul said:
WOW!!!!

You have obviously never even read the entire bible.

Most of the bible has nothing to do with anything directly or indirectly pertaining to the jesus myth.

Most of the bible is filled with cubits gibberish, fake historical references about mythical wars, places and people, mindless stories with no point what so ever, people's lineage which serves no purpose, etc, etc, etc...

Depending upon which corrupted version of the bible you use, there are apx. 783,137 words in the bible. Now anyone can read it from start to finish and they will NOT find even ONE good clearly written description of what a soul even is. Now since "saving" everyone's "soul" is at the very heart of the Christian mythology, with it's some 2,000 years of beatings, torture, death and destruction unleashed upon the world to force their beliefs upon the world, you would think their "god" would at least tel them WHAT it really is they are "saving".

Furthermore, nor is there anything truly spiritual described in any of the 783,137 meaningless words in the bible.

Not only is there NO description of what a soul really is, there is also nothing about the SPIRITUAL characteristics of their "god" (The FATHER), his judgement process, what "Heaven" is really like, in what state they will exist as there, what they will be doing thru-out all eternity, etc.

So again:

"Furthermore, I have been blessed with having a most profound spiritual life after having an experience with death with my soul going to what most call "Heaven" before being returned to my former body and life. And during that visit and all thru-out my entire life God has always answered my spiritual questions in a clear, concise, and all encompassing manner. So there is no way you or anybody else will ever convince me that he had anything to do with that total mess of lies about himself. That could have only come from the feeble demented minds of MAN."

Now why would God impart all this to me and withhold it all from you Christians?

Why does he just give you gibberish and lies?

(Hint - Because MAN was entirely behind the writing of the jesus myth.)

I was looking for some specific references that we could discuss.

I disagree with your assertion that we know nothing about the spiritual characteristics of our God. Jesus made known our God, and provided the Spirit that enables believers to enjoy communion. I believe, quite honestly, that the presence of God's Spirit within the heart of a believer is better evidence of God's love than a near death experience.

Ancient Soul · Feb 8, 2020

Redemptionsong said:
I decided to check out the last of these links, and was confronted with a site calling itself remnantofgod.org. After reading some of their articles, I looked them up on rationalwiki. It said:

'The ministry appears to be the work of two men named Nicholas and Craig, paranoid conspiracy theorists who consider mainstream Seventh-day Adventism and all other Christian denominations to be apostate. Nicholas quickly veers off into incomprehensible green ink that use typical kook arguments in an attempt to prove that his religion is true and every other religion is false.'

So whose views are we to believe?

What is worryingly clear from this exchange is that gathering objective and evidence-based information is hard when using the Internet.

So typical!

You pick out >1< little thing to reject all the others, just because you don't like to hear the truth that he was a con.

So go ahead, do some research on Ron Wyatt yourself. There are countless proven examples where he lied about most everything. So do it, go and find all the reputable scientific articles proving his claims are all false. But I know you won't because like all other Christians you would rather believe in lies that "supports" your beliefs than seeing actual facts that it's wrong.

sooda · Feb 8, 2020

Redemptionsong said:
Sooda, this is nonsense. Jesus was a Jew, and the Jews have always been the guardians of scripture. Christians are told that the Old Testament scriptures are for their learning. It is necessary to read all the scriptures to fully understand the revelation of God. Dislocating the Old from the New has the effect of increasing the chance of heresy.

There is no reason to believe that the 'times of the Gentiles' would even have happened had it not been for the Tanakh. Wherever Paul preached the gospel of grace, he used the scriptures to convince his hearers that Christ was the central figure in God's plan of redemption, and that scripture had prophesied his coming.

The [temporary] rejection of Jesus by mainstream Judaism was itself prophesied.
John 1:11. 'He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:' [John 1:11;12.]

For starters you might research the meaning of goy and gentiles and how those words were used. The Romans didn't trample Jerusalem for 42 months.

Romans did not trample the city of Jerusalem for 42 months. They only trampled Jerusalem during the 5-month siege of Titus in 70 AD.

The Jews successfully kicked the Romans out of Jerusalem in August 66 AD, and they only managed to return to Jerusalem for a few days in November 66 AD when Cestius Gallus unsuccessfully attacked the city. For the next 3.5 years the Romans did not enter Jerusalem.

During the 42 months before the Romans came, Jerusalem was indeed trampled, but it was by a different group of people. In early 68 AD Jesus ben Gamala, one of the former high priests, gave a speech in which he described what was happening to Jerusalem because of the Zealots:

“And this place, which is adored by the habitable world, and honored by such as only know it by report, as far as the ends of the earth, is trampled upon by these wild beasts born among ourselves” (Wars 4.4.3).

Ancient Soul · Feb 8, 2020

Redemptionsong said:
I was looking for some specific references that we could discuss.

I disagree with your assertion that we know nothing about the spiritual characteristics of our God. Jesus made known our God, and provided the Spirit that enables believers to enjoy communion. I believe, quite honestly, that the presence of God's Spirit within the heart of a believer is better evidence of God's love than a near death experience.

Seriously???!!!

You want me to fill up all this forums Internet space copying the ENTIRE bible with all it's convoluted gibberish to discuss???!!! Ha, ha, ha... not gonna happen.

That does not describe anything about the soul nor the spiritual characteristics of God. You are just blowing smoke.

So let's see the verses that clearly describes just what a soul is.

Then present the verses that clearly describes the true spiritual nature of God (God the FATHER, not the jesus myth.)

And you are still avoiding my original comments of:

"Furthermore, I have been blessed with having a most profound spiritual life after having an experience with death with my soul going to what most call "Heaven" before being returned to my former body and life. And during that visit and all thru-out my entire life God has always answered my spiritual questions in a clear, concise, and all encompassing manner. So there is no way you or anybody else will ever convince me that he had anything to do with that total mess of lies about himself. That could have only come from the feeble demented minds of MAN."

Now why would God impart all this to me and withhold it all from you Christians?

Why does he just give you gibberish and lies?

(Hint - Because MAN was entirely behind the writing of the jesus myth.)

Audie · Feb 8, 2020

Ancient Soul said:
So typical!

You pick out >1< little thing to reject all the others, just because you don't like to hear the truth that he was a con.

So go ahead, do some research on Ron Wyatt yourself. There are countless proven examples where he lied about most everything. So do it, go and find all the reputable scientific articles proving his claims are all false. But I know you won't because like all other Christians you would rather believe in lies that "supports" your beliefs than seeing actual facts that it's wrong.

Of course it is easy to con ye gullible, but very
hard to convince anyone they've been had.
Foolish pride! (It goeth before...)

So easy to find onr little, or big, or lots of things by
which to reject the entire bible, if one were so dishonest as
to do so.

The way people today with such easy acces to information
and education, nevertheless slobber all over a cheap shabby obvious
fraud tells one so much about how it was easy to
get miracle-man believers from ingnorant superstitious
rustics in the days of "Jesus".

Subduction Zone · Feb 8, 2020

Redemptionsong said:
Well, I don't believe the Bible is a 'convoluted mess' or 'man made myth'. There's a cohesion, truth, and beauty to the Bible that I find in no other book.

Except for the parts that contradict itself, the fact that the Old Testament God is portrayed as evil incompetent, and dishonest. That much of it has been shown to be myth. Oh the list goes on and on. Yet there are some good parts of the Bible.

Exactly which parts of the Bible have led you to think this way?

Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy , . . .

Milton Platt · Feb 9, 2020

Redemptionsong said:
Years ago, the biblical archaeologist and adventurer, Ron Wyatt, came to Britain to give talks about his discoveries. He was giving talks in the county of Oxfordshire, England. I invited him to speak at the school where I taught, and he kindly spoke to our students about the things he had discovered during his archaeological adventures in the Near/Middle East. He was involved in the search for such things as Noah's ark, the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, the resting place of the Holy Ark, and the site of Mount Horeb (Sinai).

I have my doubts about the sites he associated with Sodom and Gomorrah, because he located these cities at the southern end of the Dead Sea, whereas I believe, from the scriptural evidence, that they were at the northern end; but, apart from that, I have a lot of sympathy with his detective work and honesty before God.

To me, the most striking of his discoveries were the site of Mount Horeb, in Arabia, and the place that he associated with the Holy Ark, Jeremiah's Grotto.

Some of Ron's discoveries have since received a lot of attention, especially the site he associated with the grounding of Noah's ark in eastern Turkey. Mount Horeb has also received a lot of attention, not least from Saudi authorities.

What, I wonder, is the situation with Jermiah's Grotto and the Holy Ark? Do Israeli authorities know about Ron Wyatt's claims to have found its hiding place? Maybe you know more than I do and can tell me more?

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but these places don't necessarily have to have existed at all.

Lots of hypotheses out there, such as this one:

Israel Finkelstein, an archaeologist at Tel Aviv University, offers this suggestion to Israeli daily Haaretz:

We are probably dealing here with an etiological story, that is, a legend that developed in order to explain a landmark. In other words, people who lived in the later phase of the Iron Age, the later days of the kingdom of Judah, were familiar with the huge ruins of the Early Bronze cities and told a story of how such important places could be destroyed.

The truth behind Ron Wyatt's archaeological discoveries.

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