A dialogue about Prophecy & doctrines between the WTS/JW & Seventh-day Adventist

coconut theology · Feb 4, 2020

Deeje said:
Matthew 5:19....
"Whoever, therefore, breaks one of these least commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in relation to the Kingdom of the heavens. But whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in relation to the Kingdom of the heavens."

These words were spoken by Jesus who was a devout Jew. He was bound by the Mosaic Law until he inaugurated the "new covenant" on the night before his death.

Read:

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Context:

Isa 56:1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.

Luk_2:30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,

Isa 56:8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Jesus applies Isaiah 56:8 directly to Himself. Isaiah 56:1 speaks of "salvation" and "righteousness" which was to be "revealed", both of which refer to Jesus.

Not read the context sandwich, of Isaiah 56:2-7:

Isa 56:2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
Isa 56:3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
Isa 56:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
Isa 56:5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
Isa 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
Isa 56:7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

As foretold:

Luke 23:54,56;

Acts 1:2, [4:24], 13:14,27,42,44, [14:15-16], 15:21, 16:13, 17:2,[24], 18:4;

Hebrews 3:11, 4:1,3,4,5,8,9,10,11; [Hebrews 4:9 "rest" Greek: sabbatismos, literal sabbath-keeping]

Revelation 1:10 [kuriake hemera, "the Lord's Day" [the 7th Day Sabbath, not "the Day of the Lord", this is totally different in the Greek], see Genesis 2:1-3, Exodus 20:8-11, Deuteronomy 5:12:15, Isaiah 58:13, 66:23, Matthew 12:8, Mark 2:27,28; Luke 6:5 ],

Revelation 10:6 [see also Exodus 20:11, 31:17; Nehemiah 9:6; Psalms 146:6; Acts 4:24, 14:15, Revelation 14:7];

Revelation 14:7 [see previous], etc

Even in Acts 15:19,21 (as the Gentiles repented unto God to keep His commandments), connected to Amos 9:11-12, in which the Tabernacle would be "built up" not torn down as the WTS/JW do to God's commandments.

You do not know the scriptures, neither the power of God. Repent therefore, that your sins (1 John 3:4) may be blotted out ...

Matthew 5, is the context of the Ten Commandments explained in detail, in the New Covenant, as each of the Ten Commandments are eternal promises.

The New Covenant is the Law of God (Ten Commandments) written upon the Heart by the Holy Ghost/Spirit:

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Eze 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
Eze 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Eze 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

The old Covenant is not the Ten Commandments:

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The old Covenant is the peoples agreement in Exodus 19:8, "All that the LORD hath spoken we will do.", and God found "fault" with "them", their promises, of the people.

The Ten Commandments are perfect, and without fault:

Psa_19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

coconut theology · Feb 4, 2020

Deeje said:
Luke 16:17..."Indeed, it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to go unfulfilled.".... this is confirmation that Jesus "fulfilled" the Law, just as he said just a couple of verses before...

Not all things are fulfilled. The 2nd and 3rd Advents have not taken place. The 7 Last Plagues have not taken place yet, etc.

Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

Deeje said:
Matthew 5:17...
“Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill".

The 10 Commandments are part of the Law that is no longer binding on Christians.

False. The very verse you just cited proved otherwise, and including prophecy:

Isa 42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

But you do not understand, but you now have opportunity to:

Kanye West's "Christian" - "Sunday Service" - Jesus is King Album, Chick Fil-A & the Real Lord's Day

Deeje said:
When the circumcision issue arose in the first century and Jewish Christians were trying to force Gentiles to undergo circumcision, the Apostles and Elders in Jerusalem responded with this directive....
"For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you except these necessary things: 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper. Good health to you!”

There is no mention of a Sabbath observance because it was only of significance to Jews. (Exodus 31:16-17)
It was not incumbent on Gentiles, neither was circumcision....not a "necessary thing" for them.

Circumcision (spiritual) is still required, even as it was then:

Deu_10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Deu_30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Jer_4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

As for Acts 15, the Gentiles were already repenting unto God, Acts 15:19,21 and were already keeping God's Ten Commandments, such as the 7th day the Sabbath, see previous references. Acts is not the end all be all of what was needed to be done, but necessary things that needed to be immediately addressed. The other Epistles, ect were also to be followed, etc, like Hebrews, Romans, etc. Sabbath is directly mentioned in Acts 15, but yet you pass right over it. Read it again. Slowly.

Deeje said:
"Why Jesus Had to Die on a Stake. At the time Jehovah God gave his law to the Israelites, they obligated themselves to abide by its terms. (Ex 24:3) However, as descendants of sinner Adam, they were unable to do so perfectly. For this reason they came under the curse of the Law. To remove this special curse from them, Jesus had to be hanged on a stake like an accursed criminal. Concerning this the apostle Paul wrote: “All those who depend upon works of law are under a curse; for it is written: ‘Cursed is every one that does not continue in all the things written in the scroll of the Law in order to do them.’ . . . Christ by purchase released us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: ‘Accursed is every man hanged upon a stake.’”—Ga 3:10-13."
Torture Stake — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

Citing that is merely circular reasoning. You cite the WTS./JW translation to prove your own theological view. That is no evidence of anything, and besides, I have already addressed that, and showed that the "cross" is all throughout scripture and in history, even using your own NWT and KIT.

Deeje · Feb 4, 2020

You do understand that you are showing a side of yourself that reveals a nasty chink in your spiritual armor?
You just have a desperate need to be right.....this is more about you than it is about "the truth".

I said I am not interested in your theology....OK?

Good bye. I am putting you on "Ignore".

coconut theology · Feb 4, 2020

Deeje said:
...Separation is what it’s all about.....so, I will consider us ‘separated’. OK?

Jud 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Jud 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
Jud 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

coconut theology · Feb 4, 2020

Deeje said:
You do understand that you are showing a side of yourself that reveals a nasty chink in your spiritual armor?
You just have a desperate need to be right.....this is more about you than it is about "the truth".

I said I am not interested in your theology....OK?

Good bye. I am putting you on "Ignore".

@Deeje

kjw47 · Feb 4, 2020

coconut theology said:
They have chosen their own interpretation over God's. It is that simple. They have relied upon their own heart:

Jer_17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

I assume your question in regards the Holy Ghost/Spirit was merely facetious and not an actual question. Do not mock the Holy Spirit, its very dangerous to do that. You are hereby warned in love from off that ground.

It is one identifier, yes. Thus, why I am, by God's grace, a true Seventh-day Adventist and not another. The "same" JEHOVAH Elohiym, I agree, Hebrews 1:8-12; Psalms 45:6-7; Psalms 102:12,24-27; Hebrews 13:4-8.

Why? It's based upon Catholic MSS/Codices as shown.

I agree that there is a "spirit" behind it. That is not in question in the least. Yet the WTS/JW teach that Jesus came in unfallen flesh, which is the doctrine of anti-christ (Roman Catholicism).

I am showing quite the opposite, that it definitely can, whether I use a KJB, or NWT or KIT, etc. God left the pattern all through scripture, and I have several more great examples, which so far, have not been refuted, or even attempted to be addressed in any serious rebuttal.

Oh, no doubt, but truth is truth, whether great or small, and this is one way to help identify that the WTS/JW have greatly erred and refuse to change, showing that they are not what they claim to be. I will be showing in this thread the other ways also, through the prophecies, etc as time allows. I expect soon for the dialogue to become merely one voice.

Seems rather narrow window to 'choose' from., as I showed. And why then do the WTS/JW "laugh" (their word, not mine) at those who cite material 50 years old, when you are citing as old material, and incomplete, and from a theological position which is counter to your own? (In otherwords, why rely upon those not of the WTS/JW such as Vine, Thayer, Liddell, Westcott, Hort; etc, whom all would vehemently disagree with the basic WTS position? They are not WTS/JW friendly.)

My next example is found in the First and the Last:

As, we (who are honest) have noticed from scripture, and from nature (the second 'book' of God), the example of the "Cross", let us now look at the other designation of God, "... the First ... and the Last ..."

Isa_41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.
Isa_44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Isa_48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
Rev_1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Rev_1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev_2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

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This is even seen in Genesis 1:1 in Hebrew (vav, and aleph, tav):

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Genesis 1:1 Hebrew:

רֵאשִׁית בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ

Genesis 1:1 Transliterated Hebrew:

B'rëshiyt Bärä élohiym ët haSHämayim w'ët hääretz

Gen 1:1 KJB In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

The "ët" and "w'ët" are two untranslated words, not found in the English, except as defined elsewhere as "first and last", "beginning and ending", "alpha and omega", "author and finisher", and even from the beginning of finshed creation the "7th day" to the final end, the "advent".

Thus in pictographic Hebrew, the very "sign" suspended between the words "Heaven" and "Earth", which is what John was speaking of in John 1:1, when he said, "In the beginning was the word ...", for John being Hebrew/Jew could understand.

This very "sign" is seen in Ezekiel 9:4,6 of the Tau/Tav:

Ezekiel 9:4 Hebrew

וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה *אֵלוֹ [אֵלָיו] עֲבֹר בְּתוֹ הָעִיר בְּתוֹ יְרוּשָׁלִָם וְהִתְוִיתָ תָּו עַל־מִצְחוֹת הָאֲנָשִׁים הַנֶּאֱנָחִים וְהַנֶּאֱנָקִים עַל כָּל־הַתּוֹעֵבוֹת הַנַּעֲשׂוֹת בְּתוֹכָהּ

Ezekiel 9:4 transliterated Hebrew

9:4 waYomer y'hwäh *ëlô [ëläyw] ávor B'tôkh' häiyr B'tôkh' y'rûshäläim w'hit'wiytä Täw al-mitz'chôt häánäshiym haNeénächiym w'haNeénäqiym al Käl-haTôëvôt haNaásôt B'tôkhäH

Ezekiel 9:6 Hebrew

זָקֵן בָּחוּר וּבְתוּלָה וְטַף וְנָשִׁים תַּהַרְגוּ לְמַשְׁחִית וְעַל־כָּל־אִישׁ אֲשֶׁר־עָלָיו הַתָּו אַל־תִּגַּשׁוּ וּמִמִּקְדָּשִׁי תָּחֵלּוּ וַיָּחֵלּוּ בָּאֲנָשִׁים הַזְּקֵנִים אֲשֶׁר לִפְנֵי הַבָּיִת

Ezekiel 9:6 transliterated Hebrew

9:6 zäqën Bächûr ûv'tûläh w'†af w'näshiym Tahar'gû l'mash'chiyt w'al-Käl-iysh ásher-äläyw haTäw al-TiGashû ûmiMiq'Däshiy TächëLû waYächëLû Bäánäshiym haZ'qëniym ásher lif'nëy haBäyit

Thus we see that it is translated as "mark" [H8420].

The very name, "Jesus" means "JEHOVAH is [my] salvation./saviour":

Mat_1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

In the OT Hebrew, the Hebrew word (H3444) for "salvation" is "yeshua", for instance, which is part of His name, see:

Exo 15:2 The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation [לי לישׁועה]: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.

Exo 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

In several places in the OT, the name used is literally (Alpha-Omega, "et") Yeshua YHVH or Jesus JEHOVAH, for instance see:

Genesis 49:18 HOT - לישׁועתך קויתי יהוה׃

Genesis 49:18 HOT Translit. - liyshûät'khä qiûiytiy y'hwäh

Exodus 14:13 HOT - ויאמר משׁה אל־העם אל־תיראו התיצבו וראו את־ישׁועת יהוה אשׁר־יעשׂה לכם היום כי אשׁר ראיתם את־מצרים היום לא תספו לראתם עוד עד־עולם׃

Exodus 14:13 HOT Translit. - waYomer mosheh el-hääm al-Tiyräû hit'yatz'vû ûr'û et-y'shûat y'hwäh ásher-yaáseh läkhem haYôm Kiy ásher r'iytem et-mitz'rayim haYôm lo tošiyfû lir'otäm ôd ad-ôläm

The "et" or "את" is the Alpeh Tau, the Alpha Omega of Hebrew, the First and Last letter, the Author and Finisher.

2 Chronicles 20:17 HOT - לא לכם להלחם בזאת התיצבו עמדו וראו את־ישׁועת יהוה עמכם יהודה וירושׁלם אל־תיראו ואל־תחתו מחר צאו לפניהם ויהוה עמכם׃

2 Chronicles 20:17 HOT Translit. - lo läkhem l'hiLächëm Bäzot hit'yaTZ'vû im'dû ûr'û et-y'shûat y'hwäh iMäkhem y'hûdäh wiyrûshälaim al-Tiyr'û w'al-TëchaTû mächär tz'û lif'nëyhem wayhwäh iMäkhem

Jonah 2:9 (2:10) HOT - ואני בקול תודה אזבחה־לך אשׁר נדרתי אשׁלמה ישׁועתה ליהוה׃

Jonah 2:9 HOT Translit. - waániy B'qôl Tôdäh ez'B'chäh-Läkh' ásher nädar'Tiy áshaLëmäh y'shûätäh layhwäh š

Psalms 119:174 HOT - תאבתי לישׁועתך יהוה ותורתך שׁעשׁעי׃

Psalms 119:174 HOT Translit. - Täav'Tiy liyshûät'khä y'hwäh w'tôrät'khä shaáshuäy

The first and last directly created by God-Prov 8, 1Cor 1:15)

The NWT corrected many errors found in The religion that came out of Romes translating.
No capitol G God belongs in the last line of John 1:1, even in their own greek lexicons proves it so.
No worship goes to any mortal, Jesus was made lower than the angels while on earth( Hebrews 2:7-9)-- 2 super misleading errors.
Wrong comma placement
Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.= error
Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise.= correct

Jesus was in Hades for 3 days--So unless Hades is Paradise they erred placing the comma.

kjw47 · Feb 4, 2020

coconut theology said:
Good, I want to look at this word "tree" a bit, ok, and show that it too in the natural, and in scripture shows the "cross":

Now, we can begin to look at a word used in scripture, over and over again for the "cross", as in other places Paul calls it the "tree", of which every known tree in the world has its Central Body, and then "branches" to the side:

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Looking at the Scriptural evidences, we can see that the very word “tree” in Deuteronomy 21:22,23 KJB, as cited before, and re-quoted in the New Testament by Luke, Paul [Acts 5:30, 10:39, 13:29; Galatians 3:13, etc KJB], and Peter [1 Peter 2:24 KJB], does indeed refer to “tree”, as we find the same word used in Genesis 1:11 KJB.

This is the first time that this word is used, and the first use, in Scripture, generally defines the meaning. In the word secondary uses, it also can mean that “wood”, or “sticks”, etc which come from the “tree”, and we can know also, from the very fact that in the beginning, there was no items separate from trees like lumber, for there was no need, in the Garden of Eden.

Therefore, anything which came from the “tree” is simply derivative of it. The last use in the Scripture of the Greek equivalent, also refers to a literal “tree”, even the “tree of life”, again found in the Garden. This is one of the principles of Scripture. First and Last usages, even the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the Ending...

The “tree of life” in the Beginning, the “tree of life” in the ending, and the “tree” of “Life” in the center, the Cross of Jesus and Him Crucified, spreading its saving shadow and cover, from the heat and fiery fury of the wrath of God to come.

Deuteronomy 21:22 - And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:

Deuteronomy 21:23 - His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

The Hebrew word for “tree” in Deuteronomy 21:22,23, is [Hebrew: H6086] “עֵץ” [transliterated] “ëtz”, meaning “[1] tree, wood, timber, stock, plank, stalk, stick, gallows; [A] tree, trees; wood, pieces of wood, gallows, firewood, cedar-wood, woody flax” [Strong's Concordance] which comes from the root word [Hebrew: H6095] “עצה”, [transliterated] “`atsah”, meaning “shut”. The translates Strong's H6086 in the following manner, taken from E-Sword KJC [King James Concordance]:

“Total Occurrences: 334:

wood, 107:

Gen 6:14, Gen 22:3, Gen 22:6-7 (2), Gen 22:9 (2), Exo 7:19, Exo 25:5, Exo 25:10, Exo 25:13, Exo 25:23, Exo 25:28, Exo 26:15, Exo 26:26, Exo 27:1, Exo 27:6, Exo 30:1, Exo 30:5, Exo 35:7, Exo 35:24, Exo 35:33, Exo 36:20, Exo 36:31, Exo 37:1, Exo 37:4, Exo 37:10, Exo 37:15, Exo 37:25, Exo 37:28, Exo 38:1, Lev 1:6-8 (3), Lev 1:12, Lev 1:17, Lev 3:5, Lev 6:12 (2), Lev 11:32, Lev 14:4, Lev 14:6, Lev 14:49, Lev 14:51-52 (2), Lev 15:12, Num 13:20, Num 19:6, Num 31:20, Num 35:18, Deu 4:28, Deu 10:1, Deu 10:3, Deu 19:5, Deu 28:36, Deu 28:64, Deu 29:11, Deu 29:17, Jos 9:21, Jos 9:23, Jos 9:27, Jdg 6:26, 1Sa 6:14, 2Sa 6:5, 2Sa 24:22, 1Ki 6:15, 1Ki 18:23 (2), 1Ki 18:33 (3), 1Ki 18:38, 2Ki 6:4, 2Ki 19:18, 1Ch 21:23, 1Ch 22:4, 1Ch 29:2 (2), 2Ch 2:16, Neh 8:4, Neh 10:34, Neh 13:31, Job 41:27, Pro 26:20-21 (2), Son 3:9 (2), Isa 10:15, Isa 30:33, Isa 45:19-20 (2), Isa 60:17, Jer 5:14, Jer 7:18, Jer 28:13, Jer 46:22, Lam 5:4, Lam 5:13, Eze 15:3, Eze 20:32, Eze 39:10 (2), Eze 41:16, Eze 41:22 (2), Hab 2:19, Hag 1:8, Zec 12:6

tree, 88

Gen 1:11-12 (2), Gen 1:29 (2), Gen 2:9 (3), Gen 2:16-17 (2), Gen 3:1, Gen 3:3, Gen 3:6 (2), Gen 3:11-12 (2), Gen 3:17, Gen 3:22, Gen 3:24, Gen 18:4, Gen 18:8, Gen 40:19, Exo 9:25, Exo 10:5, Exo 15:25, Lev 27:30, Deu 12:2, Deu 19:5, Deu 20:19, Deu 21:22-23 (2), Deu 22:6, Jos 8:29 (2), Jdg 9:10-11 (2), 1Ki 4:33, 1Ki 6:23, 1Ki 6:31-34 (4), 1Ki 14:23, 2Ki 3:19, 2Ki 16:4, 2Ki 17:10, 2Ch 3:5, 2Ch 28:4, Est 2:23, Job 14:7, Job 19:10, Job 24:20, Psa 1:3, Pro 3:18, Pro 11:30, Pro 13:12, Pro 15:4, Son 2:3 (3), Isa 40:20, Isa 44:19 (2), Isa 44:23, Isa 56:3, Isa 57:5, Isa 65:22, Jer 2:20, Jer 3:6, Jer 3:13, Jer 10:3, Jer 11:19, Jer 17:8, Eze 6:13, Eze 15:2 (2), Eze 15:6, Eze 17:24 (4), Eze 20:47 (2), Eze 21:10, Eze 31:8, Eze 34:27, Eze 36:30, Joe 2:22, Hag 2:19

trees, 79

Gen 3:2, Gen 3:8, Gen 23:17, Exo 10:15 (2), Lev 19:23, Lev 23:40 (2), Lev 26:4, Deu 16:20-21 (2), Deu 20:19-20 (3), Deu 28:42, Jos 10:26-27 (3), Jdg 9:8-15 (8), Jdg 9:48, 2Sa 5:11, 1Ki 4:33, 1Ki 10:10-12 (7), 2Ki 3:25, 1Ch 16:33, 1Ch 22:4, 2Ch 9:10-11 (2), Ezr 3:7, Neh 8:15, Neh 9:25, Neh 10:35, Neh 10:37, Psa 74:5, Psa 96:12, Psa 104:16, Psa 105:33, Psa 148:9, Ecc 2:5-6 (2), Son 2:3, Son 4:14, Isa 7:2, Isa 10:19, Isa 44:14, Isa 55:12, Jer 7:20, Eze 15:2 (2), Eze 15:6, Eze 17:24, Eze 20:28, Eze 31:4-5 (2), Eze 31:8-9 (3), Eze 31:14-16 (3), Eze 31:18 (2), Eze 47:7, Joe 1:12 (2), Joe 1:19

timber, 23

Exo 31:5, Lev 14:45, 1Ki 5:6, 1Ki 5:8 (2), 1Ki 5:18, 1Ki 6:10, 1Ki 15:22, 2Ki 12:12, 2Ki 22:6, 1Ch 14:1, 1Ch 22:14-15 (2), 2Ch 2:8-10 (3), 2Ch 2:14, 2Ch 16:6, 2Ch 34:11, Neh 2:8, Eze 26:12, Hab 2:11, Zec 5:4

stick, 9

2Ki 6:6, Lam 4:8, Eze 37:16-17 (4), Eze 37:19 (3)

gallows, 8

Est 5:14 (2), Est 6:4, Est 7:9-10 (2), Est 8:7, Est 9:13, Est 9:25

sticks, 5

Num 15:32-33 (2), 1Ki 17:10, 1Ki 17:12, Eze 37:20

carpenters, 3

2Ki 12:11 (2), 1Ch 14:1

staff, 3

2Sa 21:19, 2Sa 23:7, 1Ch 20:5

stock, 2

Jer 2:27, Jer 10:8

stocks, 2

Jer 3:8-9 (2), Hos 4:12

carpenter, 1

Isa 44:12-13 (2)

helve, 1

Deu 19:5

pine, 1

Neh 8:15

planks, 1

Eze 41:25

stalks, 1

Jos 2:6”

It doesn't matter to me if was a cross or stake. I believe my teachers-Pagan false god worshipping murderers used a cross--Why would Jesus use it as a front for his religion? Its the same in their pictures of Jesus. The NT is clear. Its a dishonor for a male Israelite to have long hair. Jesus would never bring dishonor to his Father name or his own. God made a special covenant with the Nazarites( Samson) not to cut their hair.( 2Chronicles 21:12-15 Jesus was a Nazarene not a Nazarite. Their pictures prove they do not know the real Jesus.

kjw47 · Feb 4, 2020

coconut theology said:
Continuing with this word "tree", let's take a look at a typology even found in the NWT:

Let's add to this study with the WTS/JW own source the NWT translation, and see the typology laid out there, as it is even in the KJB, and any Bible:

While the central root "stock" would be a pole-beam, there would also be the cross-beam, the 'Patiblum', which would be the "branches" coming off the root stock, and thus be a "tree" as Paul and others called it.

Even in the Footnotes of the NWT, they allow for the word "tree":

"... [Acts 5:20 NWT] The God of our forefathers raised up Jesus, whom you killed, hanging him on a stake.*n ..."; "... *Or “tree.” ..." [1]

"... [Acts 10:39 NWT] And we are witnesses of all the things he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem; but they did away with him by hanging him on a stake.* ..."; "... *Or “tree.” ..." [1]

"... [Acts 13:29 NWT] And when they had accomplished all the things written about him, they took him down from the stake and laid him in a tomb.z ..."; "... *Or “tree.” ..." [1]

"... [1 Peter 2:24 NWT] He himself bore our sinsu in his own body on the stake,v so that we might die to sins and live to righteousness. And “by his wounds you were healed.”w ..."; "... *Or “tree.” ..." [1]

Other mentions:

"... [Joshua 8:29 NWT] He hung the king of Aʹi on a stake until the evening, and as the sun was about to set, Joshua gave the order to take his dead body down from the stake.v Then they pitched it at the entrance of the city gate and raised up a great pile of stones over him, which is there to this day. ..."; "... Or “tree.” ..." [1]

"... [2 Samuel 18:9,10,14 NWT] 9 Abʹsa·lom eventually found himself facing the servants of David. Abʹsa·lom was riding on a mule, and the mule went under the thick branches of a large tree, and his head got entangled in the big tree, so that he was suspended in midair* while the mule he had been riding kept going.

10 Then someone saw it and told Joʹab:l “Look! I have seen Abʹsa·lom hanging in a big tree.”

14 To this Joʹab said: “I am not going to waste any more time with you!” So he took three spikes* in his hand and drove them through the heart of Abʹsa·lom while he was still alive in the midst of the big tree. ..." [1]

View attachment 36765

In the Typology of 2 Samuel 18:9,10,14 KJB, we read of Absalom [the son of David; whose name means the "Father's peace"] was, because of sin, rebellion against the King, hung upon a tree [by his hair, his glory], and was suspended between Heaven and Earth, and struck with three piercings, or as the NWT says, "three spikes", as large nails, and then in his death buried as wicked.

2 Samuel 18:9 KJB - And Absalom met the servants of David. And Absalom rode upon a mule, and the mule went under the thick boughs of a great oak, and his head caught hold of the oak, and he was taken up between the heaven and the earth; and the mule that was under him went away.

2 Samuel 18:10 KJB - And a certain man saw it, and told Joab, and said, Behold, I saw Absalom hanged in an oak.

2 Samuel 18:14 KJB - Then said Joab, I may not tarry thus with thee. And he took three darts in his hand, and thrust them through the heart of Absalom, while he was yet alive in the midst of the oak.

Just as Jesus, who took our sins upon himself, was hung upon a Tree, the son of David, the Father's peace towards man, suspended between Heaven and Earth, pierced by three nails upon the Cross, then in His death, taken down and buried as with the wicked [Isaiah 53:9 KJB].

Arms raised to the east and west, seeking help.

View attachment 36766

View attachment 36767

Pierced with the spear.

A translated greek word is the only existing proof. I showed you many errors done by the religion that came out of Rome--You will have to put your trust into them. Does that put your eternal life into them as well by trusting them?

Deeje · Feb 4, 2020

coconut theology said:
@Deeje

Is that what you think you are doing?

Drowning....not waving.....

coconut theology · Feb 5, 2020

kjw47 said:
The first and last directly created by God-Prov 8 ...

If you really want to speak about the Son, ok, let's do this properly. Ready? Proverbs 8 (so also 1 Corinthians 1:15) says nothing about created in relation to "wisdom" (the Son). How do I know? Details, prayerful study. Do you want to look at it with me, Yes or No, please. I do not need a long reply, just answer, either yes or no, and if yes we can then begin.

coconut theology · Feb 5, 2020

Deeje said:
Is that what you think you are doing?

There is a difference between "thinking" and "knowing". I know what it is I am doing, but, if you would be so kind, if you desire to continue with me, I really want to look at the prophecies as mentioned in the OP. We can start with Daniel 4 if you like, or any of the time prophecies. I am very serious about when I say I am still awaiting for what the WTS/JW says on some of them, that are not listed in PATDP, or WDTBRT and sources listed therein.

For instance I already know what the WTS/JW teach on

[01] Daniel 4 and the "seven times" (I disagree with them, based upon the context therein)

[02] 2,300 days of Daniel 8:14 (I disagree with them, based upon the context therein)

[03] 1,260 (I disagree with them, based upon the context therein)

[04] 1,290 (I disagree with them, based upon the context therein)

[05] 1,335 (I disagree with them, based upon the context therein)

[06] 70 Weeks (I disagree with them, in part, about the years, based upon the context therein)

[07] 7 weeks (I disagree with them, in part, about the years, based upon the context therein)

[08] 62 weeks (I disagree with them, in part, about the years, based upon the context therein)

[09] 1 week and its division (I disagree with them, in part, about the years, based upon the context therein)

[10] 1000 years (aka Millennium) (I disagree with them, in part, about the events therein, based upon the context therein)

What I am not sure about in the WTS/JW prophetic timeline (as no WTS/JW will ever tell me with proper source listed and linked if possible, even when it is the first thing I ask)

[01] 10 days of Revelation 2:10

[02] 5 months of Revelation 9:5,6,10

[03] hour, day, month and year of Revelation 9:15

[04] 3 1/2 days of Revelation 11:9,11

[05] Does the WTS/JW org see the 1,260 of Daniel 7:25, 12:7; Revelation 11:2-3, 12:6,14, 13:5 and Luke 21:24 a the same time frame, or do they see them as differing, and if so, when and how with official sources with links if possible please.

[06] hour of Revelation 3:10

[07] hour of Revelation 17:12

[08] about the space of half an hour in Revelation 8:1

[09] hour of Revelation 14:7

Therefore, if you really want to help, and dialogue, then I am seriously looking for official WTS/JW org information on these last 09.

The Seventh-day Adventist movement, being the chroniclers of prophetic time, we know what these times mean, but I want to know what the WTS/JW think they mean as I have never heard them explained by WTS/JW member (ever, and I have asked for many years now):

1Ch 12:32 And of the children of Issachar, which were men that had understanding of the times, to know what Israel ought to do; the heads of them were two hundred; and all their brethren were at their commandment.

coconut theology · Feb 5, 2020

kjw47 said:
A translated greek word is the only existing proof. I showed you many errors done by the religion that came out of Rome--You will have to put your trust into them. Does that put your eternal life into them as well by trusting them?

You are mistaken. I am not placing my trust in the translation of any word as translated by man. My trust is in the word of God, by which God translates and interprets God's own word (Genesis 40:8; 2 Peter 1:20; Isaiah 8:20, 28:10,13, etc). I trust in the "pattern" given by God in the Sanctuary of Heaven and shown on earth. The same question was asked about John by Jesus to the Pharisees, the pattern of baptism was it of Heaven or of men, and so I, as a member of the final Elijah spirit, ask you, is the pattern of Exodus 25:8-9,40; Numbers 8:4; 1 Chronicles 28:12,19; Ezekiel 43:10; Hebrews 8:5, etc) of Heaven or of men?

My position on the "cross" (as a shape from God) has nothing to do with Roman Catholicism, 'Orthodoxy', etc. It is entirely separate as shown in my replies. I am not a Roman Catholic (any longer).

coconut theology · Feb 5, 2020

kjw47 said:
It doesn't matter to me if was a cross or stake.

I do not believe you. Your next statement says it all.

kjw47 said:
I believe my teachers-

Yes, the 'rabbis' of today. Peter warned:

2Pe_2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

kjw47 said:
Pagan false god worshipping murderers used a cross--

Yep, as satan loves to counterfeit the truth, as your own self and others have admitted. I have shown that the shape of the cross existed before their abuse, and that it (pattern) came from Heaven, directly from instruction from JEHOVAH Elohiym (Exodus 25:8-9,40, etc)

kjw47 said:
Why would Jesus use it as a front for his religion?

Jesus doesn't use it as a "front" for His religion. Well meaning persons, who are a little confused on the subject do that. The real symbol of Jesus is the Sabbath, the 7th day.

1Jn_5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Deu 5:10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

Notice what Paul said in parallelism:

Gal_5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Gal_6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

1Co_7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Faith which works by love (and the love of God is to keep His commandments), shows that we are the New Creature, and the old things of the man of sin are passed away, and no longer live the life in rebellion to God, but by the Holy Ghost keep the commandments of God, as Jesus did.

kjw47 said:
Its the same in their pictures of Jesus.

Look, are you really so worried about peoples portrayals of Jesus? Most of it is guess work. Some are better looking (personally speaking) than others. I can't stand most of the gothic, or 'orthodoxic' and Roman Catholic art. I think it is filled with paganism (like Jesus coming out of the "Yoni", or Mary etc), looks bad, and of mostly nudes (pornography).

You say you are not concerned with this or that, but in reality that is all you are focused upon, and keep bringing it up.

kjw47 said:
The NT is clear. Its a dishonor for a male Israelite to have long hair.

Define, from scripture, "long hair" (as found in 1 Corinthians 11:14). Would you say hair to the top of the shoulder is "long"? If so, show that from scripture, Book, Chapter, Verse. I do not want your opinion, nor WTS.JW org mumbo jumbo. I want Bible, preferably the KJB (but even if you cite the NWT, I will consider it).

From what I understand of scripture (KJB), and study on it (very briefly), hair to the top of the shoulders is ok, as it would cover the nakedness (symbol of sin; which God was concerned about covering) of the back of the neck.

I could share very much about dress reform from the scripture, and through the Sanctuary (Psalms 77:13, as all True doctrine is found therein) if you wanted me to.

For instance, here is a presentation by a palagi on a related subject, diet:

Or on Death (you probably have never heard anything so deep in any of your Bible studies at any WTS/JW hall):

kjw47 said:
Jesus would never bring dishonor to his Father name or his own.

That is already agreed, and non-sequitur to all the OP and following posts.

kjw47 said:
God made a special covenant with the Nazarites( Samson) not to cut their hair.( 2Chronicles 21:12-15 Jesus was a Nazarene not a Nazarite.

Already agreed. Yet, Jesus has taken a vow not to drink the fruit of the vine again until we drink it with Him new in the Kingdom.

kjw47 said:
Their pictures prove they do not know the real Jesus.

Every single 'picture' of Jesus is simply an artists rendering of what they thought Jesus looked like, whether closer or further from the reality of the real Jesus.

coconut theology · Feb 5, 2020

coconut theology said:
If you really want to speak about the Son, ok, let's do this properly. Ready? Proverbs 8 (so also 1 Corinthians 1:15) says nothing about created in relation to "wisdom" (the Son). How do I know? Details, prayerful study. Do you want to look at it with me, Yes or No, please. I do not need a long reply, just answer, either yes or no, and if yes we can then begin.

@kjw47 awaiting the answer, or do I move on?

coconut theology · Feb 5, 2020

kjw47 said:
The first and last directly created by God-Prov 8, 1Cor 1:15)

The NWT corrected many errors found in The religion that came out of Romes translating.
...
Wrong comma placement
Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.= error
Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise.= correct

Jesus was in Hades for 3 days--So unless Hades is Paradise they erred placing the comma.

That is not a translation error, it is a printers error (and God never said anything about preserving commas/punctuation, but God did say that He would preserve His words; Psalms 12:6-7, etc). (which printers errors also exist in the NWT, still - Error found in new "Silver Sword" revised New World Translation - JWsurvey , and so also the same comma error still exists in the NWT, for it is still not appropriately placed there either, and I can demonstrate from scripture that this is so).

Where was Jesus? Jesus lay in the Grave/Tomb the entirety of the time:

Mat_28:6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

"Hades" is simply a 'transliteration' of the koine Greek (αδου) and is no help to anyone except those who actually speak, read and understand Greek. "Hell" is actually the appropriate word in translation, as it means a 'pit dug', as one would go "helling potatoes".

Psa_16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Act_2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Act_2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

kjw47 · Feb 6, 2020

coconut theology said:
If you really want to speak about the Son, ok, let's do this properly. Ready? Proverbs 8 (so also 1 Corinthians 1:15) says nothing about created in relation to "wisdom" (the Son). How do I know? Details, prayerful study. Do you want to look at it with me, Yes or No, please. I do not need a long reply, just answer, either yes or no, and if yes we can then begin.

Jesus became wisdom-1Corinthians 1:30-- Collosians 1:15--The firstborn of all creation--Creation began before man or the earth came. Jesus was created first-direct-and last. He tells you so at Prov 8

kjw47 · Feb 6, 2020

coconut theology said:
@kjw47 awaiting the answer, or do I move on?

I will start a thread-- 7 teachings from Jesus.

kjw47 · Feb 6, 2020

coconut theology said:
That is not a translation error, it is a printers error (and God never said anything about preserving commas/punctuation, but God did say that He would preserve His words; Psalms 12:6-7, etc). (which printers errors also exist in the NWT, still - Error found in new "Silver Sword" revised New World Translation - JWsurvey , and so also the same comma error still exists in the NWT, for it is still not appropriately placed there either, and I can demonstrate from scripture that this is so).

Where was Jesus? Jesus lay in the Grave/Tomb the entirety of the time:

Mat_28:6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

"Hades" is simply a 'transliteration' of the koine Greek (αδου) and is no help to anyone except those who actually speak, read and understand Greek. "Hell" is actually the appropriate word in translation, as it means a 'pit dug', as one would go "helling potatoes".

Psa_16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Act_2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Act_2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

a printers error for over 1500 years? Fact--Sheol( Hebrew)= Hades( Greek) both translate--The grave.

coconut theology · Feb 6, 2020

kjw47 said:
a printers error for over 1500 years? Fact--Sheol( Hebrew)= Hades( Greek) both translate--The grave.

You are mistaken about the number of years. The Latin of Jerome had no such punctuation, neither the koine Greek or original Hebrew. The KJB was originally 1611, with several editions for correcting printers mistakes (such as punctuation, not all are caught) and for standarization of spelling (English was still in forming) and going from Gothic type to Roman type. The present edition is generally 1769. Yet as I said, the NWT still has a printers error at the same place. They simply moved the comma to the other place, but that is not entirely correct either, as I said I can demonstrate from scripture.

Also, as I said, "hell" is the appropriate English word (not a transliteration of Hades or Sheol), and means a hole of dug pit (even as defined in scripture, or if you prefer Websters 1828)

coconut theology · Feb 6, 2020

kjw47 said:
I will start a thread-- 7 teachings from Jesus.

That was not what was asked for. It was either yes or no, and we would begin in this thread. I will not be chasing you to another. If you flee from this thread, you flee alone.

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