A dialogue about Prophecy & doctrines between the WTS/JW & Seventh-day Adventist

coconut theology · Feb 4, 2020

kjw47 said:
The cross... in the bible ...

Yes, I am showing that the "Cross" pattern is all throughout the scriptures, even if you use the NWT it is there, for mankind cannot alter what God has done:

Let's consider another typology in the life of Moses and Joshua:

Moses and Joshua, Aaron and Hur; Exodus 17.

Exodus 17:9 KJB - And Moses said unto Joshua, Choose us out men, and go out, fight with Amalek: to morrow I will stand on the top of the hill with the rod of God in mine hand.

Exodus 17:10 KJB - So Joshua did as Moses had said to him, and fought with Amalek: and Moses, Aaron, and Hur went up to the top of the hill.

Exodus 17:11 KJB - And it came to pass, when Moses held up his hand, that Israel prevailed: and when he let down his hand, Amalek prevailed.

Exodus 17:12 KJB - But Moses' hands were heavy; and they took a stone, and put it under him, and he sat thereon; and Aaron and Hur stayed up his hands, the one on the one side, and the other on the other side; and his hands were steady until the going down of the sun.

Exodus 17:13 KJB - And Joshua discomfited Amalek and his people with the edge of the sword.

Moses, representing Jesus as deliverer, goes atop a hill, where all may see him [Exodus 17:9 KJB].

Jesus was taken to the hill of the Skull [Calvary; Luke 23:33 KJB], Golgotha [Mark 15:22; John 19:17 KJB], where all may see him [Isaiah 45:22; John 12:32 KJB].

Moses, representing Jesus as deliverer, has two persons beside him, one on the Right, the other on the Left [Exodus 17:12 KJB].

Jesus, was crucified between two persons, one of the Right hand, the other on the left [Matthew 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:33; John 19:18 KJB].

Moses, representing Jesus as deliverer, was victorious for his people, so long as his hands remained outstretched and steady, until the going down of the sun [Exodus 17:12 KJB].

Jesus, whose arms and hands were each outstretched, with a “nail” [“as a nail in a sure place”; Isaiah 22:23,25 KJB] in each hand, thus plural "nails", whose “bones were out of joint”, even “as far as the east is from the west”, that they could not move, were steady, yes even till the going down of the sun [the “ninth hour”; approx 3 PM, time of the evening sacrifice, having hung there from the time of the morning sacrifice] on the preparation day, just before the 7th Day Sabbath of the Lord God and feast sabbath began together, his victory assured, memorialized forever. Just as Joshua was victorious, this Joshua was too, over the real enemies of God, delivering the people with “mighty hand” and “outstretched arm”.

Moses - as held up, and on either side a man, with the rock below, hands raise to either side as holding the staff across and the 'army' of soldiers below.

Jesus:

Jesus Christ And Two Thieves At Calvary.jpg

Deeje · Feb 4, 2020

I am sorry but your replies are just too involved with details that to me matter little in the big picture and are the product of a mind that seems to overthink everything to the point of ridiculous....that is not the Christianity I subscribe to.

coconut theology said:
Two sides can promote a symbol, such as the "rainbow", and in [1] one instance it is God's symbol of everlasting Covenant of Justice and Mercy comingled in the character of God's light and Love, and [2] the propagandistic agenda of the LGBTQPxyz community use it also. Yet, whom borrowed from whom? That such symbol is distorted by others, does not mean that it's original intent and purpose was so distorted, right?

Since I cannot see that a rainbow was ever a religious symbol, your point is somewhat moot.

coconut theology said:
Our present symbol is the following, as found in Revelation 14:6-12:

The Three (and yea, also fourth, Rev. 18) Angels messages, which are going into all the earth even now.

And how are these angels declaring this message? If it is the same way that Jesus directed his disciples to preach the good news, then where are the SDA's in getting that message out in obedience to Jesus command at Matthew 28:19-20? According to Matthew 24:14, "the good news of the kingdom" was to be "preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations" before the foretold "end" of this world system of things.

No SDA has ever delivered that message to me the way Jesus said it should be done...personally. (Matthew 10: 11-15)
This to me is the true test of a disciple.....no one can do this work consistently without God's spirit and the backing of Jesus Christ who commanded it. The SDA Church is hardly known where I live. Very few know what you believe and you have no real visible presence in the world. The SDA's where I used to live lamented that their church was almost devoid of young people and the oldies were not bothering to come much anymore. Perhaps its different where you live? But everywhere I have lived, either city or country, Jehovah's Witnesses were there....young and old sharing in worship and in the all important preaching work.

coconut theology said:
Yes, but that "angel of light" has to borrow from God in every single case. The only thing which is original with satan is "sin".

The devil is a mimic. Whatever God does, he copies....but makes a very inferior job of it.

coconut theology said:
I agree, that there are false ministers, and false signs, wonders, etc. Yet, knowing that, does not negate that there are the true ministers, the true signs and wonders and true symbols.

If there are "signs and wonders" in this era, it isn't from God. The era of miracles is past.
As Paul wrote, concerning the foretold apostasy........
"True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who is right now acting as a restraint is out of the way. 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence. 9 But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness."

coconut theology said:
Sanctuary:

Psa 77:13 Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God?

Psalm 77:13...
"O God, your ways are holy.
What god is as great as you, O God".......??

The KJV makes no sense of that verse.

coconut theology said:
we need to test even that "spirit" which claims to be the Holy Spirit, by what is written, yes? For no marvel that even Satan masquerades as an holy spirit, but is the unclean spirit.

I wish you would lose the KJV. It is an outdated and extremely biased translation that belongs to a dark age of ignorance. Do you speak in Archaic English? Neither did Jesus. Please don't quote it to me as I find it extremely annoying to be preached to in a language I do not use.

Deeje · Feb 4, 2020

coconut theology said:
Disagree. The texts cited, Genesis 3:15,21; Revelation 13:8) show that Adam was the first to sacrifice a lamb, by which God clothed Adam/Eve with coats of skins. The sinner always had to slay the animal, though it was God which had to teach them. Adam/Eve then taught Cain and Abel, and later Seth, etc., to do so, just as Abraham taught Isaac and household (Genesis 18:19).

Where will I find Adam slaying a lamb? Genesis says that God provided the garments of skin.....not because of a sacrifice but because modesty dictated that their loin coverings were no longer sufficient now that a knowledge of good and evil had been unleashed. It was to ameliorate their feelings of shame. An added benefit would have been as a protection from the hostile environment outside the garden on cursed ground, with "thorns and thistles" to contend with. The particular animal whose skin was used is not named.

"The Lamb, slain from the founding of the world" was contained in the prophesy of Genesis 3:15.
Lambs and goats were used for sacrificial purposes from the time of Abel who is the first one in scripture mentioned to have made a blood sacrifice to God.
The reason why Adam and his wife never made a sacrifice to God was for the same reason why they never uttered a word of remorse or repented of their sin.....being willful and deliberate, there was no basis upon which to forgive them. Their lives changed dramatically once they were expelled from the garden.

coconut theology said:
God took the lamb, and brought it before Adam/Eve and showed them how to slay it, in answer of God's promise of Genesis 3:15, as a symbol of covenant:

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
These "coats of skins" came from the lamb slain from the foundation of the world", which was a symbol of the covenant and promise of what Jesus would come to do

This is absolute nonsense IMO. You are reading into scripture something that is not there. When Adam and Eve walked the earth the 'players' in the prophesy of Genesis 3:15 were unknown. Not until Jesus came and John identified him as "the Lamb of God", did the Jews know who was represented by the Passover Lamb whose blood saved the Israelites from losing their firstborn in Egypt.

coconut theology said:
As stated, be that as it may (and the Ankh is not actually the "T" or "t", but a twisted version thereof), but even still, a twisted version of truth, does not negate the truth which existed before the perversion of truth. Again, see the example of the Rainbow above.

The cross does not belong in Christianity. It is not found in the catacombs at all until the 4th century and we all know why that was. Jews were forbidden, as were Christians, to make images to use in worship.

coconut theology said:
I understand about 'new light', but want to make sure we understand these things.

Yet you still refer to something that was done 90 odd years ago...we are way past that now.
When Daniel foretold that God's would cleanse, whiten and refine a people in this time of the end, (Daniel 12:9-10) It is clear that these are processes that take time. Slowly over decades our beliefs and practices were refined and cleansed of all the pagan rubbish that had crept into Christendom's teachings over many centuries.

coconut theology said:
This is not actually true. There will be no opportunity to speak then, as all time for that is past, for God will open the book (Revelation 20:13), gaze upon it, and then upon all the finally impenitent, the lost, and instantly all their deeds will be brought to remembrance

Jesus said it, not me....
“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’"

Here they are offering their excuses which are instantly rejected.

Deeje · Feb 4, 2020

coconut theology said:
Therefore, I ask you, as a WTS/JW member, why do you transgress the 4th commandment, and teach people to not keep it (Matthew 5:19; Luke 16:17)?

You do not think that they make 'excuses' to not keep God's explicit will? I would like to hear from you on that.

Matthew 5:19....
"Whoever, therefore, breaks one of these least commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in relation to the Kingdom of the heavens. But whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in relation to the Kingdom of the heavens."

These words were spoken by Jesus who was a devout Jew. He was bound by the Mosaic Law until he inaugurated the "new covenant" on the night before his death.

Luke 16:17..."Indeed, it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to go unfulfilled.".... this is confirmation that Jesus "fulfilled" the Law, just as he said just a couple of verses before...

Matthew 5:17...
“Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill".

The 10 Commandments are part of the Law that is no longer binding on Christians.
When the circumcision issue arose in the first century and Jewish Christians were trying to force Gentiles to undergo circumcision, the Apostles and Elders in Jerusalem responded with this directive....
"For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you except these necessary things: 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper. Good health to you!”

There is no mention of a Sabbath observance because it was only of significance to Jews. (Exodus 31:16-17)
It was not incumbent on Gentiles, neither was circumcision....not a "necessary thing" for them.

coconut theology said:
Jesus, as we both agree, was 'crucified'. Therefore, I am asking about the translation of "tree", as again, God teaches from the natural to the spiritual, and I would like to share more on this in a bit, about what it is important to also understand the word "tree".

"Why Jesus Had to Die on a Stake. At the time Jehovah God gave his law to the Israelites, they obligated themselves to abide by its terms. (Ex 24:3) However, as descendants of sinner Adam, they were unable to do so perfectly. For this reason they came under the curse of the Law. To remove this special curse from them, Jesus had to be hanged on a stake like an accursed criminal. Concerning this the apostle Paul wrote: “All those who depend upon works of law are under a curse; for it is written: ‘Cursed is every one that does not continue in all the things written in the scroll of the Law in order to do them.’ . . . Christ by purchase released us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: ‘Accursed is every man hanged upon a stake.’”—Ga 3:10-13."
Torture Stake — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

Deeje · Feb 4, 2020

coconut theology said:
Wouldn't it be more appropriate to cite the more modern and up to date research that has the greater evidence, as I have done?

Why do you cling to an outdated Bible translation that is only confusing to the modern reader? The KJV has been revised too you know.

coconut theology said:
I noticed that the NWT especially has gone through many 'revisions'

As new understandings come to light the Governing Body clarified what we had published formerly and provided explanations as to why some alterations were made. Would you rather we had stayed behind and corrected nothing, like Christendom?

coconut theology said:
I understand about present truth and greater light, but present truth and greater light cannot negate that which was gone before, unless it were to correct an previously held error.

Nothing was negated...it was clarified...big difference. Our understanding was enhanced and we expect that this will occur from time to time as the refining process continues. Our beliefs are not stagnant.

coconut theology said:
what shall be the final authority, man or scripture? I would like to suggest it is scripture, the word of God (Isaiah 8:20, etc).

So, can we look now at what scripture says?

I get the feeling that you don't think we have, so lets just allow our differences to stand and let God do the deciding. I am not going to convince you and you will never convince me.

coconut theology said:
I agree, and thus the 'food' we are fed needs to be tested by the word of God

We have tested it thoroughly, thank you.

coconut theology said:
I am not saying that the symbol is everything, but I am speaking about what is the truth of the matter, that is all. For presently we have two opinions, between us, and we need to know which is correct, based upon scripture, that we may be as Jesus prayed, "one" mind/heart in truth.

Jesus did not come to unite us...but to separate us. I am OK with that. The unity that exists is between Christians in a brotherhood who all hold to the same truth....you and I obviously do not.

coconut theology said:
I would like to present my first (of at least 12) examples of the "Cross" being in the scripture itself, as used by God (JEHOVAH Elohiym):

Let's see the "Cross" throughout all of the scripture, even as scripture says:

No thanks...its just a waste of space....your copious and ridiculously detailed posts are wearing me out....
I will not continue...sorry.

coconut theology · Feb 4, 2020

Deeje said:
I am sorry but your replies are just too involved with details ...

Yep, the details matter. Should be the next popular catch slogan. Here is another example of the "cross" in scripture from another typology - Samson:

Samson; Judges 16.

Samson carrying bars of the Gate at Gaza, old mosaic.

Just as Samson, representing Jesus as deliverer, was born specially, by promise from God, to a woman which could not bare, and he was to be filled with the Holy Ghost, and to be dedicated to the Lord from birth to death, and to be deliverer of the people [Judges 13 KJB].

Jesus, a holy child, was born of the virgin Mary, by Holy Ghost, to be dedicated to the Lord forever [Luke 1:35; Acts 4:27,30 KJB], and to be the Saviour and deliverer of all people, who would accept the sacrifice [Matthew 1:21; Acts 13:23; Romans 11:26, etc KJB].

Just as Samson, representing Jesus as deliverer, was attempted to be taken many times by his enemies, but could not be until betrayed by a woman [harlot] he loved, for silver [Judges 16:5,18; KJB even as the type of Christ, Joseph was sold/betrayed by Juda for silver [Genesis 37:27,28 KJB]], into the hands of his enemies as a slave, even though he had “shewed [her] all his heart” [Judges 16:18 KJB].

Jesus, also could not be taken, until his appropriate time [Daniel 9:24-27 KJB, in the Year AD 31, in the First Month, Abib/Nisan, on the 14th Day of the Month, being the 6th Day of the week [aka Friday, preparation day], dying at the 9th hour [roughly 3 PM, the time of the evening Sacrifice], to enter into the 7th Day the Sabbath rest of Creation/Redemption] betrayed by a woman [the harlot Church, physical Israel, even at the hands of Judas], for silver [Zechariah 11:12,13; Matthew 26:15, 27:3 KJB], into the hands of the enemy, for the price of a slave [Matthew 27:9 KJB], even though God had revealed all His heart in Christ Jesus to the world.

Just as Samson, representing Jesus as deliverer, carried “the bar” of the “gate” [the place of judgment], even the great weight, across his “shoulders”, up to the top of a “hill” [Judges 16:3 KJB].

Jesus, also carried the cross [John 19:17 KJB], after a manner [Simon of Cyrene, being an example for us, to take up that Cross and bear it for Jesus; Matthew 16:24; Mark 8:34; Luke 9:23 KJB], up to the hill of Golgotha [Matthew 27:33; Mark 15:22; John 19:17 KJB], the place of the Skull [the very place of the mind/heart of man; even Calvary; Luke 23:33 KJB], bearing the weight of the not merely the cross, but the sins of the whole world [Isaiah 63:9 KJB], the government and judgment should be upon his shoulders [Isaiah 9:6, 22:22 KJB].

Just as Samson, representing Jesus as deliverer, was blinded [Judges 16:21 KJB], that he could not see, and was ill-treated and mocked of his enemies [Judges 16:25 KJB], the LORD being departing from him [Judges 16:20 KJB].

Jesus, also was blind-folded [Luke 22:64 KJB], that he could not see, and was ill-treated and mocked of his enemies [Job 12:4; Matthew 27:29,31; Mark 15:20; Luke 23:11,36 KJB], apparently forsaken of God [Psalms 22:1; Matthew 27:46; Mark 15:34 KJB].

Just as Samson, representing Jesus as deliverer, then in the last moments of his life, was taken out, placed between two pillars [Judges 16:25 KJB] and leaned upon them with his hands outstretched, to the right and to the left [Judges 16:29 KJB], east and west, praying [Judges 16:28 KJB], and dying with the enemies [Judges 16:30 KJB], destroyed the Temple [Judges 16:30 KJB], slaying his enemies more in his death, than in his life.

Jesus, also then was placed between two persons, one of the Right hand, the other on the left [Matthew 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:33; John 19:18 KJB]. Jesus said that He would destroy the Temple [John 2:19 KJB], by which he slays in/by his death the enmity between God and mankind [Genesis 3:15; Ephesians 2;16, etc KJB], forever magnifying the Law of God, making it honourable [Isaiah 42:21 KJB], demonstrating its eternality. His hands and arms outstretched, with a “nail” [“as a nail in a sure place”; Isaiah 22:23,25 KJB; thus plural "nails"] in each hand, whose “bones were out of joint”, even “as far as the east is from the west” to save and deliver, even unto a gainsaying people.

sooda · Feb 4, 2020

Deeje said:
The cross is a pagan symbol used centuries before Jesus was even born. There is no "cross" in the Bible.

Here is our explanation....

Why Jesus Had to Die on a Stake. At the time Jehovah God gave his law to the Israelites, they obligated themselves to abide by its terms. (Ex 24:3) However, as descendants of sinner Adam, they were unable to do so perfectly. For this reason they came under the curse of the Law. To remove this special curse from them, Jesus had to be hanged on a stake like an accursed criminal. Concerning this the apostle Paul wrote: “All those who depend upon works of law are under a curse; for it is written: ‘Cursed is every one that does not continue in all the things written in the scroll of the Law in order to do them.’ . . . Christ by purchase released us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: ‘Accursed is every man hanged upon a stake.’”—Ga 3:10-13. (Excerpt)
Torture Stake — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

“did not the early Christians regard the cross as a symbol of Christianity?” No, they did not. It was not until about the middle of the third century of our Common Era that professed Christians began to use it as such. An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words by W. E. Vine states on page 256 of volume one: “By the middle of the 3rd century A.D. the churches had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith. In order to increase the prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols. Hence the Tau or T, in its most frequent form, with the cross-piece lowered, was adopted to stand for the cross of Christ.”

The Cross Is of Pagan Origin — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

We are not alone in bringing to people's attention that Jesus was put to death on a "srauros" which never involves two pieces of timber placed at any angle. It is simply an upright pole or post.
The cross has a very sordid history.

That makes no sense at all. The Romans were PAGANS.

sooda · Feb 4, 2020

The cross is thought to have originated from the ancient Babylonians before its spread to other parts of the world such as Syria, Egypt, Greek, Latin, India, and Mexico. The pre-Christian cross was used as a religious symbol and as an ornament among the Egyptians, Syrians, Greeks, Persians, Europeans,...

The History of the Christian Cross - WorldAtlas.com
www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-history-of-the-christian-cross.html

coconut theology · Feb 4, 2020

Deeje said:
I am sorry but your replies are just too involved with details ...

It is when we lose sight of the details, that we begin to makes mistakes, such as the WTS/JW in citing Justus Lipsius in part, rather than in the whole, for in so doing, the WTS/JW org had misrepresented that author, and also the Roman Catholic encyclopedia., please notice, as we continue our journey of the "cross" through scripture and history:

Now let us consider a bit of history, even using the WTS/JW material that they (incorrectly) cite:

For example, the Watch Tower and Tract Society, cites Justus Lipsius' work “De Cruce Liber Primus” [Link] and cite* merely one small section of the work, pointing to a possible type of crucifixion that was historically known, this being the Crux Simplex, Page 19, seen here - http://brooklyn.org.pl/00000003.gif or here - https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Justus_Lipsius_Crux_Simplex_1629.jpg , which is also seen in a more modern rendition, in the WTS material “What does the Bible really Teach?”, Page 52 [to which I had been given a copy of from a Jehovah's Witness, whom I knew briefly,and fully read], and also may be seen here - http://download.jw.org/files/media_books/97/bh_E.pdf

Yet Justus Lipsius work cites many types of crucifixions, that were historically known and used, not simply the one pointed out by the WTS, and he also does not point to the Crux Simplex as the one Jesus was crucified upon, but rather to another, being one with a cross beam, as may be seen here [Begin on Scanned Pages 1157-1234] - Opera omnia, postremum ab ipso aucta et recensita, nunc primum ..., Volume 3

- Specifically see Pages:

The WTS/JW org says:

* “... the Watchtower's 1985 Kingdom Interlinear Translation, of which the above woodcut is shown as an illustration:

"`Cross'" is only a later meaning of crux. A single stake for impalement of a criminal was called in Latin crux simplex. One such instrument of torture is illustrated by Justus Lipsius (1547-1606) in his book De cruce libri tres, Antwerp, 1629, p. 19, which we here present. ... Crux simplex illustrated."” - [1]

[and for more on that work, see here] - Jesus is Jehovah!: Justus Lipsius' De Cruce Liber Tres

According to WTS theology, Jesus died on a 'torture stake' [pole. "i"], and not a "Cross" ["t"], when they say:

"... The Imperial Bible-Dictionary says that the word staurosʹ “properly signified a stake, an upright pole, or piece of paling, on which anything might be hung, or which might be used in impaling a piece of ground.” The dictionary continues: “Even amongst the Romans the crux (Latin, from which our cross is derived) appears to have been originally an upright pole.” Thus, it is not surprising that The Catholic Encyclopedia states: “Certain it is, at any rate, that the cross originally consisted of a simple vertical pole, sharpened at its upper end.” ..." - [Link]

"... [Picture on page 18]

A 17th-century drawing of an execution on a staurosʹ, from Lipsius’ De Cruce ..." - [Link]

coconut theology · Feb 4, 2020

Deeje said:
I am sorry but your replies are just too involved with details ...

It is when we lose sight of the details, that we begin to makes mistakes, such as the WTS/JW in citing Justus Lipsius in part, rather than in the whole, for in so doing, the WTS/JW org had misrepresented that author, and also the Roman Catholic encyclopedia., please notice, as we continue our journey of the "cross" through scripture and history:

[Question] Given, those citations from the WTS/JW

Evidence, which the WTS ignored, and altered, ending a sentence with a period, when it should have been either a 'comma' or a set of 'ellipses' because the remainder of the sentence changes the entire thing, 'prominent part', meaning there was more than one part, more than the "pole"/'stake", there was the "cross piece", or "patibulum". More than this, the Imperial Bible Dictionary of Patrick Fairbairn [a trinitarian], does not choose a single upright stake, but rather agrees generally with one of the latter of the three: "T", "X", "t" forms.:

The Imperial Bible Dictionary, Historical, Biographical, Geographical, and Doctrinal: Including the Natural History, Antiquities, Manners, Customs, and Religious Rites And Ceremonies Mentioned In The Scriptures, And An Account Of The Several Books Of The Old And New Testaments. Edited By The Rev. Patrick Fairbairn, D.D., Author Of "Typology Of Scripture," "Commentary On Ezekiel," Etc. Illustrated By Numerous Engravers, Volume I, London: Blackie And Son, Paternoster Row; And Glasgow And Edinburgh. MDCCCLXVL., pages 376, 377

"... CROSS, CRUCIFY. The Greek word for cross, σταυρός, properly signified a stake, an upright pole, or piece of paling, on which anything might be hung, or which might be used in impaling a piece of ground. But a modification was introduced as the dominion and usages of Rome extended themselves through Greek-speaking countries. Even amongst the Romans the crux (from which our cross is derived) appears to have been originally an upright pole, and this always remained the more prominent part. But from the time that it began to be used as an instrument of punishment, a transverse piece of wood was commonly added: not, however, always even then. For it would seem that there were more kinds of death than the one by the cross; this being sometimes accomplished by transfixing the criminal with a pole, which was run through his back and spine, and came out at his mouth (adactum per medium hominem, qui per os emergat, stipitem, Seneca, Ep. xiv.) In another place (Consol. ad Marciam, xx.), Seneca mentions three different forms: "I see," says he, "three crosses, not indeed of one sort, but fashioned in different ways; one sort suspending by the head persons bent toward the earth, others transfixing them through their secret parts, others extending their arms on a patibulum." There can be no doubt, however, that the latter sort was the more common, and that about the period of the gospel age crucifixion was usually accomplished by suspending the criminal on a cross piece of wood.

But this does not of itself determine the precise form of the cross; for crosses of three different shapes were known to have been in use. One, and that probably the most ancient, was in the form of the letter T, which as commonly written consisted simply of a perpendicular line with another laid across the top, making two right angles, T. In the earlier Christian writers this letter is often referred to to as a symbol of the cross, and, on account of such a resemblance, Lucian, in his usual style, prefers a charge against the letter (Judio. Voc. xii.) The letter X represents another sort, which has received the name of St. Andrew, from a tradition that on a cross of this description the apostle of that [Page 376-377] name suffered martyrdom. But the commonest form, it is understood, was that in which the upright piece of wood was crossed by another near the top, but not precisely at it, the upright pole running above the other, thus t -- and so making four, not merely two right angles. It was on a cross of this form, according to the general voice of tradition, that our Lord suffered; but there is nothing in the narratives of the evangelists which determines this to have been the form employed, rather than either of the other two. It is, however, the one most commonly met with in the paintings and sculptures that have survived from the earlier ages. ..." - Imperial Bible dictionary : historical, biographical, geographical, and doctrinal including the natural history, antiquities, manners, customs, and religious rites and ceremonies mentioned in the Scriptures, and an account of the several books of the Old and New Testaments - https://archive.org/stream/imperialbibledi00fairgoog#page/n402/mode/1up/search/"an+upright+pole"

The Roman Catholic Encyclopedia actually says:

"... The penalty of the cross goes back probably to the arbor infelix, or unhappy tree, spoken of by Cicero (Pro, Rabir., iii sqq.) and by Livy, apropos of the condemnation of Horatius after the murder of his sister. According to Hüschke (Die Multa, 190) the magistrates known as duoviri perduellionis pronounced this penalty (cf. Liv., I, 266), styled also infelix lignem (Senec., Ep. ci; Plin., XVI, xxvi; XXIV, ix; Macrob., II, xvi). This primitive form of crucifixion on trees was long in use, as Justus Lipsius notes ("De cruce", I, ii, 5; Tert., "Apol.", VIII, xvi; and "Martyrol. Paphnut." 25 Sept.). Such a tree was known as a cross (crux). On an ancient vase we see Prometheus bound to a beam which serves the purpose of a cross. A somewhat different form is seen on an ancient cist at Præneste (Palestrina), upon which Andromeda is represented nude, and bound by the feet to an instrument of punishment like a military yoke — i.e. two parallel, perpendicular stakes, surmounted by a transverse bar. Certain it is, at any rate, that the cross originally consisted of a simple vertical pole, sharpened at its upper end. Mæcenas (Seneca, Epist. xvii, 1, 10) calls it acuta crux; it could also be called crux simplex. To this upright pole a transverse bar was afterwards added to which the sufferer was fastened with nails or cords, and thus remained until he died, whence the expression cruci figere or affigere (Tac., "Ann.", XV, xliv; Potron., "Satyr.", iii) The cross, especially in the earlier times, was generally low. It was elevated only in exceptional cases, particularly whom it was desired to make the punishment more exemplary or when the crime was exceptionally serious. Suetonius (Galba, ix) tells us that Galba did this in the case of a certain criminal for whom he caused to be made a very high cross painted white — "multo præter cætteras altiorem et dealbatam statui crucem jussit". ...

... Among the Romans the cross never had the symbolical meaning which it had in the ancient Orient; they regarded solely as a material instrument of punishment. There are in the Old Testament clear allusions to the Cross and Crucifixion of Jesus Christ. Thus the Greek lefter (tau or thau) appears in Ezekiel 9:4, according to St. Jerome and other Fathers, as a solemn symbol of the Cross of Christ — "Mark Thau upon the foreheads of the men that sigh". The only other symbol of crucifixion indicated in the Old Testament is the brazen serpent in the Book of Numbers (21:8-9). Christ Himself thus interpreted the passage: "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of man be lifted up" (John 3:14). The Psalmist predicts the piercing of the hands and the feet (Psalm 21:17). This was a true prophecy, inasmuch as it could not be conceived from any custom then existing; the practice of nailing the condemned to a T-shaped cross being, as we have seen, at that time exclusively Western. The cross on which Jesus Christ was nailed was of the kind known as immissa, which means that the vertical trunk extended a certain height above the transverse beam; it was thus higher than the crosses of the two thieves, his crime being judged a graver one, according to St. John Chrysostom (Homil. v, c. i., on I Corinth.). The earliest Christian Fathers who speak of the Cross describe it as thus constructed. We gather as much from St. Matthew (27:37), where he tells us that the titulus, or inscription containing the cause of His death, was placed, "over", the head of Jesus Christ (cf. Luke 23:38; John 19:19). St. Irenæus (Adv. Haer., II, xxiv) says that the Cross had five extremities: two in its length, two in its breadth, and the fifth a projection (habitus) in the middle — "Fines et summitates habet quinque, duas in longitudine, duas in latitudine, unam in medio". St. Augustine agrees with him: "Erat latitudo in qua porrectæ sunt manus longitudo a terrâ surgens, in quâ erat corpus infixum; altitudo ab illo divexo ligno sursum quod imminet" (Enarration on Psalm 103; Serm. i, 44) and in other passages quoted by Zöckler (Das Kreuz, 1875, pp. 430, 431).

Nonnus confirms the statement that Jesus Christ was crucified on a quadrilateral cross (). St. Irenæus, in the passage cited above says that the Cross had a fifth extremity, on which the Crucified One was seated. St. Justin calls it a horn, and compares it to the horn of a rhinoceros (Dialogus cum Tryphone, xci). Tertullian calls it sedilus excessus, a projecting seat, or shelf (Ad. Nat., I, xii). This little seat (equuleus) prevented the weight of the body from completely tearing the nail-pierced hands, and it helped to support the sufferer. It has never been indicated, however, in representations of the Crucifixion. On the Cross of Christ was placed the titulus, as to the wording of which the Four Evangelists do not agree. St. Matthew (xxvii, 37) gives, "This is Jesus the King of the Jews"; St. Mark (xv, 26) "The King of the Jews"; St. Luke (xxiii, 38), "This is the King of the Jews"; St. John, an eyewitness (xix, 19), "Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews". In representations of the Crucifixion there often appears beneath the feet a wooden support (, suppedaneum); that it ever existed is very doubtful. The first express mention of it occurs in Gregory of Tours (De Gloriâ Martyrum, vi). St. Cyprian, Theodoret, and Rufinus hint at it. ..." - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Archaeology of the Cross and Crucifix - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Archaeology of the Cross and Crucifix

And then, the follow up Question was asked previously, in regards the Biblical evidence on the shape of the instrument of the Cross, how do you account for these things, in relation to the WTS position, and their mis-representation of the two sources just cited?:

sooda · Feb 4, 2020

Deeje said:
Matthew 5:19....
"Whoever, therefore, breaks one of these least commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in relation to the Kingdom of the heavens. But whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in relation to the Kingdom of the heavens."

These words were spoken by Jesus who was a devout Jew. He was bound by the Mosaic Law until he inaugurated the "new covenant" on the night before his death.

Luke 16:17..."Indeed, it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to go unfulfilled.".... this is confirmation that Jesus "fulfilled" the Law, just as he said just a couple of verses before...

Matthew 5:17...
“Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill".

The 10 Commandments are part of the Law that is no longer binding on Christians.
When the circumcision issue arose in the first century and Jewish Christians were trying to force Gentiles to undergo circumcision, the Apostles and Elders in Jerusalem responded with this directive....
"For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you except these necessary things: 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper. Good health to you!”

There is no mention of a Sabbath observance because it was only of significance to Jews. (Exodus 31:16-17)
It was not incumbent on Gentiles, neither was circumcision....not a "necessary thing" for them.

"Why Jesus Had to Die on a Stake. At the time Jehovah God gave his law to the Israelites, they obligated themselves to abide by its terms. (Ex 24:3) However, as descendants of sinner Adam, they were unable to do so perfectly. For this reason they came under the curse of the Law. To remove this special curse from them, Jesus had to be hanged on a stake like an accursed criminal. Concerning this the apostle Paul wrote: “All those who depend upon works of law are under a curse; for it is written: ‘Cursed is every one that does not continue in all the things written in the scroll of the Law in order to do them.’ . . . Christ by purchase released us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: ‘Accursed is every man hanged upon a stake.’”—Ga 3:10-13."
Torture Stake — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

The word "crucifixion" (pronounced krü-se-fik-shen) comes from the Latin crucifixio, or crucifixus, which means "fixed to a cross.".

In Roman crucifixion, a person's hands and feet were driven through with stakes and secured to a wooden cross.
6 Facts About the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ
www.thoughtco.com/facts-about-jesus-crucifixion-700752

coconut theology · Feb 4, 2020

Deeje said:
I am sorry but your replies are just too involved with details ...

Ah, yes, the "details". Here is a detail that several WTS/JW members have attempted to bring up to me, in response, but they never bother with the "details", which is why I have to show them:

Let's look at another typology, Moses and the Brazen Serpent upon a pole:

Num 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

Num 21:9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

Joh_3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

Joh_8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

2Co_5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Gal_3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

These are no mere images of men's imagination, but are studied from the word "pole" itself.

What of the Serpent upon a Pole? Did it have any cross piece or branching?

Yes!

The Hebrew H5251, "נס", "nês", is also used for a "sail" on a Mast of a ship, which is not merely an upright pole, but is an upright pole with small corssbeams to hold the sails, and top sail, crows nests, etc. and is the same word used for "banner" as we saw before:

Even the ancient writers, like Justin Martyr understood this (and I did not even know this quote existed until recently!, but JEHOVAH Elohiym had showed to me in the scriptures the same!):

First Apology, CHAPTER LV (55) -- SYMBOLS OF THE CROSS:

"But in no instance, not even in any of those called sons of Jupiter, did they imitate the being crucified; for it was not understood by them, all the things said of it having been put symbolically. And this, as the prophet foretold, is the greatest symbol of His power and role; as is also proved by the things which fall under our observation. For consider all the things in the world, whether without this form they could be administered or have any community. For the sea is not traversed except that trophy which is called a sail abide safe in the ship; and the earth is not ploughed without it: diggers and mechanics do not their work, except with tools which have this shape. And the human form differs from that of the irrational animals in nothing else than in its being erect and having the hands extended, and having on the face extending from the forehead what is called the nose, through which there is respiration for the living creature; and this shows no other form than that of the cross. And so it was said by the prophet, "The breath before our face is the Lord Christ." And the power of this form is shown by your own symbols on what are called "vexilla" [banners] and trophies, with which all your state possessions are made, using these as the insignia of your power and government, even though you do so unwittingly. And with this form you consecrate the images of your emperors when they die, and you name them gods by inscriptions. Since, therefore, we have urged you both by reason and by an evident form, and to the utmost of our ability, we know that now we are blameless even though you disbelieve; for our part is done and finished." - Philip Schaff: ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Tertullian clearly identifies the use of a cross in his writings dating from A.D. 190-220

"You hang Christians on crosses (crucibus) and stakes (stipitibus); what idol is there but is first moulded in clay, hung on a cross and stake (cruci et stipiti)? It is on a patibulum that the body of your god is first dedicated" (Apologeticus, 12.3). "For this same letter TAU of the Greeks, which is our T, has the appearance of the cross (crucis)" (Apologeticus, 3.23.6) "Every stake fixed in an upright position is a portion of the cross; we render our adoration, if you will have it so, to a god entire and complete. We have shown before that your deities are derived from shapes modelled from the cross. But you also worship victories, for in your trophies the cross is the heart of the trophy. The camp religion of the Romans is all through a worship of the standards, a setting the standards above all gods. Well, as those images decking out the standards are ornaments of crosses. All those hangings of your standards and banners are robes of crosses. I praise your zeal: you would not consecrate crosses unclothed and unadorned." (Apologeticus, 16)- Philip Schaff: ANF03. Latin Christianity: Its Founder, Tertullian - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

coconut theology · Feb 4, 2020

Deeje said:
I am sorry but your replies are just too involved with details that to me matter little in the big picture and are the product of a mind that seems to overthink everything to the point of ridiculous....that is not the Christianity I subscribe to. ...

I subscribe to truth. Jesus was very concerned about the little details:

Joh_6:12 When they were filled, he said unto his disciples, Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost.

Joh_20:7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.

Every little ray of light is precious truth. I gather every single ray I can.

Deeje said:
Since I cannot see that a rainbow was ever a religious symbol, your point is somewhat moot.

At least you say that you cannot "see". Allow me to help you:

Gen 9:12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:
Gen 9:13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.

It is the very symbol that surrounds God's throne, a symbol of justice and mercy mixed perfectly together, the glory of God's own perfect Character of Light, a coat of many colours, the wedding garment, even God's weapon:

Eze 1:28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

You may see more here in Powerpoint Form - "The "Cross" Bow" (PowerPoint):

Deeje said:
And how are these angels declaring this message?

Angels are symbols of messengers (as David was called an Angel, and Paul, as Jesus, etc). They (Angels) are the members of the "remnant", as seen in Revelation 10:1-11, 12:17, 14:6-12; Joel 2:28-32, which are doing the reaping right now, separating the wheat from the tares (Matthew 13:39).

Deeje said:
If it is the same way that Jesus directed his disciples to preach the good news, then where are the SDA's in getting that message out in obedience to Jesus command at Matthew 28:19-20?

Knock ... knock ... Hi, my partner and I were in the neighbourhood doing some surveying about health in matters physical, mental and spiritual. (Hands book in the midsection) Here take a look. ...

The internet is one such place, among many, such as door knocking, colporteuring, surveying, leafleting, tracting (which I have done some of each and still do), etc in fact last summer, I was in charge of the youth Tracting and some Colporteur training, and the summer before that we were door to door all over in greater Sacramento, CA, Oak Park (a very rough neighbourhood), CA, etc, and even up in Washington area):

The Everlasting Gospel produces a harvest:

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Mar 13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Rev 10:10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.
Rev 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

Seventh-day Adventists are in practically every nation, now. Look up the statistic (and that is just the visible numbers, not the invisible numbers).

"... Countries and Areas of the World as Recognized by the United Nations 235

Countries and Areas of the World in Which Seventh-day Adventist Work is Established 213 ..." - Quick Statistics on the Seventh-day Adventist Church

An older listing - Countries Compared by Religion > Seventh-day Adventist Membership. International Statistics at NationMaster.com

The only other church that even compares with us (Revelation 12) is the Great Whore of Revelation 17.

Notice the Harvest and the Reapers:

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

The Messages of the Three Angels

Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

The Harvest of the Earth

Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Rev 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

You are being told right now, if no one has told you before:

The First Angels Message, take heed:

The Third Angels Message, take the warning sent from God:

Seventh-day Adventists are the only ones preaching it.

coconut theology · Feb 4, 2020

Deeje said:
According to Matthew 24:14, "the good news of the kingdom" was to be "preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations" before the foretold "end" of this world system of things.

Yes, and even it is so now. Door to door, marketplaces, internet, television, radio, printed page, newspaper, tracts, satellite and God's providence.

Deeje said:
No SDA has ever delivered that message to me the way Jesus said it should be done...personally. (Matthew 10: 11-15)

What do you think I am doing with you now? This is person to person, via the medium of the internet. Will you reject the providence of God because it doesn't meet what you think it ought to be? The Pharisees rejected Jesus for the same reasons ...

I am right now living in a foreign nation, in a such an house a described in Matthew 10:11-15.

Deeje said:
This to me is the true test of a disciple.....no one can do this work consistently without God's spirit and the backing of Jesus Christ who commanded it.

Yea, well, LDS and Baptists claim as much as you do. Simply going door to door, is not the fulness of the truth, is it? Notice the characteristics, "keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus".

WTS/JW do not keep God's commandments, and say so themselves.

Deeje said:
The SDA Church is hardly known where I live.

Yes, a "remnant". Not the "broad" way., but the "narrow". The "few" that found it. That is one thing. The other things is satan has placed all his might against us, to cover us in darkness and impede the work in every possible way from without and within, see Revelation 12:17. Yet, we are still moving forward, onward and upward.

Deeje said:
Very few know what you believe and you have no real visible presence in the world.

It is not us you should be focusing upon, but what we are saying, as it doesn't come from us. There were very few that believed in Noah's day. So too again in ours. Billions will perish, because they refused.

Deeje said:
The SDA's where I used to live lamented that their church was almost devoid of young people and the oldies were not bothering to come much anymore.

Yes, it can happen, and if you understood what satan has done within and from without you would begin to see why it is so, so watch this series and you will know exactly why, nothing is hidden:

Deeje said:
Perhaps its different where you live? But everywhere I have lived, either city or country, Jehovah's Witnesses were there....young and old sharing in worship and in the all important preaching work.

Busy-ness, doesn't mean truth. Martha was busy. Mary was listening to what Jesus wanted her to know. It doesn't mean we shouldn't be busy (as I am most busy, doing much by God's grace), but it means we should be busy in the right way. Christ's method alone.

Deeje said:
The devil is a mimic. Whatever God does, he copies....but makes a very inferior job of it.

Yes, and thus what I stated about the "cross" is then true.

Deeje said:
If there are "signs and wonders" in this era, it isn't from God. The era of miracles is past.

You will then miss out on what is about to take place, and attribute that which is of God to the devil, when there will be both going on.

Deeje said:
As Paul wrote, concerning the foretold apostasy........
"True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who is right now acting as a restraint is out of the way. 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence. 9 But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness."

AntiChrist is already here, and been here for over 1,000 years.

Roman Catholicism - Counterfeit Sanctuary - AntiChrist 02 - With Notation.jpg

Deeje said:
Psalm 77:13...
"O God, your ways are holy.
What god is as great as you, O God".......??

The KJV makes no sense of that verse.

I see that the NWT had to change even that text. Notice the words translated:

Psa 77:13 Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God?

Psas 77:13 élohiym Ba Qodesh Dar'Kekhä miy-ël Gädôl Kë lohiym

It doesn't say "are holy". It says, "in [the] Holy", which refers to the Holy Place of the Sanctuary of God, and is even translated as such in the NWT in other places (such as NWT Exodus 30:13, etc). The NWT is wrongly translated in Psalms 77:13, for the Sanctuary is directly connected with the plan of Redemption, see Psalms 77:15, and speaks of Moses and Aaron also in Psalms 77:20.

Jesus understood, when He said, "I am the Light ...", "I am the door", "I am the way", "I am the bread", etc. All sanctuary language.

coconut theology · Feb 4, 2020

Deeje said:
I wish you would lose the KJV. It is an outdated and extremely biased translation that belongs to a dark age of ignorance. Do you speak in Archaic English?

You are most mistaken:

I have plenty of research on this issue, and can directly cite from the sources themselves - Library of Resources: - SDA Maranatha Multicultural Church in American Samoa

Archaic? I think it is time you learned something about every modern translation, including the NWT (currently revised edition).

Archaic words? You supposedly mean like these? as commonly given?

abode kernels ancients laden aright lance asunder lusty away with mantle beckon mattock begotten naught bier nurtured bewitched odious bowels osprey calved pangs celestial phylacteries coney plowshare confections rend convince respite cormorant rushes decked soothsayer deride spoil distill suckling dung temperate effect tetrarch estate trafficked forevermore unto fowl usury girdle vaunt hallowed vestments haunt vex heresies wanton infamy yokefellow inasmuch insatiable jeopardy

abase deride heresies pipes temperate abated didst hinds plowshare tenons abode distill importune presbytery teraphim adjure doest impotent principalities tetrarch alms dost inasmuch putrefaction thee ancient doth issue raiment thereon apparel dung jeopardy rampart thine aright effect know ravening thou art eminent laden remission thy asunder engines laud rend timbrel away with estate layer reprobate trafficked backbiting evermore lightness requite travail beget familiar litters riot unto beseech feigned lordly rushes usury bewail fetch lunatic seemly vagabond bewitched firstlings lusty seest valor bondwomen fleshhook mail seethe vaunt bowels footmen maintenance shalt venture breeches forbearance mammon sherd verily brimstone fowl mantle shod vermillion calves fuller maranatha shouldst vex canst gaiety mattock shouldest virtue cleave garners milch smith wanton comely gavest mill solace warp constrains girdle nether soothsayer wayfarers cormorant graven nurtured sore whence couches gross odious speakest wherewith covert guile offscouring stay woof crib handmaid pangs strait wrought dainty harrow paramours suckling yea dearth hast perdition swaddling yonder deck haunt phylacteries tares

abase daubed henceforth principality vestments abode dayspring heresies prognostication vex alms debased immutable psaltery virtue amiss decks impudent quarter visage anise deride inasmuch rampart wanton apparel dispensation issue rid warp aright disquiet jeopardy rifled wayfaring austere distill jot riotous whence away with dung know rushes whereupon backbiters effect laden satiate whet beckoned epistle laud shamefaced winebibber beggarly eventide laver shod woof begot evermore litters smith wrought bemoan familiar lordly soothsayer yea beseech fan lusty spoil yonder bewail feigned mail straits bewitched fetch mammon suckling bittern flanks mantle tares bondwomen flay mattock temperate brimstone footmen mill tenons calves forbearance mite terrestrial carnal foursquare nativity tetrarch celestial fowl offend therein circumspect fuller offscouring timbrel cloven gad omnipotent tittle comeliness godhead or ever unto concourses graven pangs usury confederacy greyhound paramours vagabond convince gross phylacteries valor covert hallowed pipes vehement crib haunts plowshare verity dainties hemlock potentate vermillion

abase disquieted henceforth ravening abate dissembles hoarfrost remission abode distill impudent rend adjuration dromedaries inasmuch riotous alms dung isles rushes apparel effect know sacrilege assuaged enjoined laden satiate asunder ensign lance seethe augment ensues laud sherd away with estate laver sloth backbiting eventide litters smith beget evermore lusty solace beggarly execration mail soothsayer bemoan familiar maintenance stay beseech firmament mantle straits bewail firstling mattock stripling bewitched flagon milch suppliants bier flay mill surfeit bowels footmen naught swaddling calving forbear noontide temperate cleft foursquare obeisance teraphim clemency fowl oblation thereupon comely fuller odious thrice coneys gad or ever timbrel constrains garner pangs trafficked cormorant goodly paramours unshod covert gross perdition crib guile phylacteries dainty hallowed pipes debased haltingly plowshare decked harrow pound delectable haunt rampart

None of those are being cited from the King James BIble [though they exist therein].

Row 1 is the NIV 1973.

Row 2 is the NASB [from revised ASV 1901].

Row 3 is the NKJV 1982.

Row 4 is the NRSV 1999 ["milch"].

What was that argument from "archaic" again? Tell me please ... as even from the NWT it also may be easily shown also.

You are speaking from ignorance (no knowledge), while I am speaking from evidence (and there are hundreds of more pages of such evidence to share).

As told you already, the NWT follows the RV (1881) and ASV (1901), of the Westcott and Hort variety.

Deeje said:
Neither did Jesus.

The Bible is inspired of God, preserved by God. The language therein is specific to the men who were inspired, and so the language of thee, thou, ye, you, etc are very specific in their intent, in matters of perspective and persons.

Joh_3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Joh 3:7 μη θαυμασης οτι ειπον σοι δει υμας γεννηθηναι ανωθεν

Jesus was saying to "thee" (singular, Nicodemus) that "Ye" (plural, the whole nation of Israel, rulers of Israel) must be born again. Modern translations lose this, in simply saying "you". The koine Greek is specific, in its singular and plural places. The same goes with Hebrew:

Exo_16:28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

Ye (plural). God was referring to the nation. Modern version absolutely destroy this distinction with the less identifiable 'you'.

See the previous playlist about so-called archaisms, which God allowed to remain in scripture itself:

1Sa_9:9 (Beforetime in Israel, when a man went to enquire of God, thus he spake, Come, and let us go to the seer: for he that is now called a Prophet was beforetime called a Seer.)

Go ahead, update "seer" to the modern word "prophet" and see if the sentence makes any sense whatsoever...

You are greatly ignorant (no knowledge) on this subject. Please see the playlist and read the materials, otherwise I will have to give a lot more detail in print.

Deeje said:
Please don't quote it to me as I find it extremely annoying to be preached to in a language I do not use.

It is written:

2Ti_4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

Psa 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Psa 12:7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Reject the inspired and preserved word of the LORD God (JEHOVAH Elohiym) and you will reap what you have sown, and always more than you have sown, some 30, some 60 and some 100 fold. Sow to the wind, and you will reap the great storm, the whirlwind.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

coconut theology · Feb 4, 2020

Deeje said:
...No thanks...its just a waste of space....your copious and ridiculously detailed posts are wearing me out....
I will not continue...sorry.

Do you even know that the entire Reformation from Martin Luther, Philip Melanchton, etc believed and taught that Michael Archangel is another designation for the Son of God, Jesus, at the same time that Jesus was also by nature eternal Deity (God, person/being of the Son) and that the WTS/JW org has a mixture of Roman Catholicism and Reformation on this issue? That even all the way back to Melito of Sardis, who said of the Son, "Among the angels, Archangel" - Here is the Proof I personally researched (you know, those details) and wrote for all to see, and even now wikipedia acknowledges this truth (after years of fighting the Roman Catholics mods there), see Chapter 11 and Appendix 2.-

coconut theology · Feb 4, 2020

In Pay Attention To Daniels Prophecy, page 96, we read from the WTS source,

"... [28] Since the "seven times" are prophetic, we must apply to the 2,520 days the Scriptural rule: "A day for a year." This rule is set out in prophecy regarding the Babylonian seige of Jerusalem. (Ezekiel 4:6,7 compare Numbers 14:34.) ..."

However, when it comes to the 1,260; 1,290; 1,335 and 2,300 prophetic timelines in Daniel, here is what the same material states:

Pay Attention To Daniels Prophecy, page 177, of the WTS material we read,

"... The 2,300 days constitute a prophetic period. Hence, a prophetic year of 360 days is involved. (Revelation 11:2,3, 12:6,14) This 2,300 days, then, would amount to 6 years, 4 months and 20 days. ..."

The WTS timeline, as already provided has the 1,260; 1,290; 1,335 and 2,300 beginning and ending on the following times:

1260 - 1914 CE December to 1918 CE June. (see PATDP page 301)

1290 - 1919 CE January - 1922 CE September. (see PATDP page 301)

1335 - 1922 CE September - 1926 CE May. (see PATDP page 301)

2300 - 1938 CE June 1st or 15th to 1944 CE October 8th or 22nd (see PATDP pages 177,178,179,301)

So, in one place, Daniel 4, and the "seven times" of Nebuchadnezzar (the 7 years), they make into thousands of years, in a "private interpretation", of which neither Daniel nor the angel Gabriel ever mentions, turning Daniel 4's inspired interpretation on it's head, and when they come to the actual time prophecies which encompass hundreds to thousands of years spanning multiple nations, from Babylon, to Medo-Persia, to Greece to Pagan Rome, etc the WTS disregards their own mention of the "Scriptural rule" and equate each period (a mere subsection of the greatest and longest time prophecy in scripture, the 2,300 day/years) into mere regular days, and throw them all at the end of time, ignoring/disregarding the context in which those times were given, in regards "the daily", etc. of Daniel 8-11.

It is also interesting to note that the WTS position, basically disassociates any connections of the 1,260; 1,290; 1,335 and 2,300 from each other with the possible exception of the 1,290 and 1,335. They also disassociate them with the "Seventy weeks" as found in Daniel 9, which is "determined" from the greater time period. How then can they be outside and disassociated?

coconut theology · Feb 4, 2020

One will also notice on the WTS/JW time chart, that they say from WDTBRT pages 198-199,

"... Historians confirm that the year 474 B.C.E. was Artaxerxes' first full year as ruler. Therefore, the 20th year of his rule was 455 B.C.E. ..."

But there are no reputable "Historians" worth their salt, having studied the actual historical sources, that "confirm" any such thing as that the WTS/JW promote. All "Historians" (except WTS) actually "confirm" that the first year of Artaxerxes I Longimanus/Machrocheir was in 457 BC, fall, while his 20th year was in 444 BC. This is "confirmed" by the astronomical materials we still have from that era:

There are several ways to correlate data, first we can use the scriptural ages, given from Genesis, in the genealogies, ages of kings, etc, and combine with known dates in history (as seen here - Age of the Earth/Mankind Chronological Study), such as the 7th year of Artaxerxes I Longimanus/Machrocheir, being in the Fall of 457 BC (by astronomical sources, Ptolemy's Canon, Elephantine Papyri, - Artaxerxes I of Persia - Wikipedia

And according to multiple, cross-checkable, sources:

VAT 5047 (No. -453 in ADT I), dated to year 11 of Artaxerxes I (454/453 BCE). - Chronology Persia

LBAT 1419 (No. 4 in ADT V), with one entry dated to year 21 of Xerxes (465/464 BCE). - Chronology Persia

LBAT 1387+1388+1486 (No. 56 in ADT V), mainly dated to the reign of Artaxerxes I. - Chronology Persia

Saros Tablets - LBART *1419; Accession of Artaxerxes I, pages 80-81, citing, J. N. Strassmaier in reports in ZA, VII [1892], 200, 201; VIII [1893], 106) - https://www.andrews.edu/library/car/cardigital/Periodicals/AUSS/1968-1/1968-1-05.pdf

The Chronology of Ezra 7 (1953), Siegfried H. Horn, Ph.D; Lynn H. Wood, Ph.D, page 28-30 (Conclusion) - http://www.friendsofsabbath.org/Further_Research/e-books/THE CHRONOLOGY OF EZRA 7 (Siegried H Horn).pdf

Elephantine Papyri - Siegfried H. Horn and Lynn H. Wood, "The Fifth-Century Jewish Calendar at Elephantine," JNES 13 (1954):14-16 - http://adamoh.org/TreeOfLife.wan.io...th_Century_Jewish_Calendar_at_Elephantine.pdf

Zondervan Illustrated Bible Dictionary, by J. D. Douglas, Merrill C. Tenney, section, "Nehemiah, book of", page 1008, par. 3 (Left-hand Column) - Zondervan Illustrated Bible Dictionary

Aramaic Ritual Texts from Persepolis, Volume 91, University of Chicago Press, 1970 pages 143-144 - Aramaic Ritual Texts from Persepolis

Ancient Israel: Its History and Meaning, by Heber Cyrus Snell, page 203 - Ancient Israel

Babylonian Chronology: 626 B.C. - A.D. 75, Part 75, by Richard A. Parker, & Waldo H. Dubberstein, page 32, Table for Artaxerxes I, 7th year, far right columns, for 1-3 months of reign (fall) - https://books.google.as/books?id=ww1KAwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=457+BC+Artaxerxes+I&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjyjObAq9HhAhWMtp4KHe_wC4s4HhDoAQhKMAg#v=onepage&q=457 &f=false

The Apocrypha of the Old Testament, Revised Standard version, by Bruce Manning Metzger (1965), Oxford University Press, page 16 - The Apocrypha of the Old Testament, Revised Standard version

An Epitome of General Ecclesiastical History: From the Earliest Period of Antiquity to the Present Time, by Rev. John Marsh A.M. (1828) & Adam Clarke; Chapter 6, page 75 - https://books.google.as/books?id=AznvRpKRVAYC&pg=PA75&dq=457+BC+Artaxerxes+I&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj93uC1rdHhAhW9FjQIHQ5wA4I4MhDoAQhPMAg#v=onepage&q=457 BC Artaxerxes I&f=false

We also know that John the Baptist began his ministry in AD 26 (which places Jesus ministry begun in AD 27):

“...to determining when the reign of Tiberius Caesar started.[38] The traditional approach is … that the reign of Tiberius started when he became co-regent in 11AD, placing the start of the ministry of John the Baptist around 26 AD. ...” - Wikipedia; "Baptism of Jesus" - Baptism of Jesus - Wikipedia

"... John the Baptist was born about 5 BC, and now about 26 A.D. about the age of 30 he appears in the wilderness of Judea. ..." Bible-History; John the Baptist - John the Baptist Appears - Story of The New Testament (Bible History Online)

The reason that the WTS/JW material must teach what they do, in total error, and in contradiction to all known historical sources, is because of their error in regards the reign of the Babylonian Kings.

Even worse still, is that the "command" of Daniel 9:25 to "restore and build Jerusalem" was not accomplished in WTS 455 BE (really 444 BC, the 20th year of Artaxerxes I Longimanus), as the entire book of Nehemiah makes no mention of any such "command", but only mentions certain "letters", which were in regards other things given to Nehemiah. The real "commandment" is found in Ezra 6:14 and Ezra 7:1-28, notice in the 7th Year (457 BC) of Artaxerxes I Longimanus/Machrocheir:

Ezr 6:14 And the elders of the Jews builded, and they prospered through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they builded, and finished it, according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the commandment of Cyrus, and Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia.

The "commandment" of Artaxerxes I Longimanus/Machrocheir is found in Ezra 7, not Nehemiah (for no "commandment" is therein given in the whole book, only "letters").

Ezr 7:8 And he came to Jerusalem in the fifth month, which was in the seventh year of the king.

Ezr 7:9 For upon the first day of the first month began he to go up from Babylon, and on the first day of the fifth month came he to Jerusalem, according to the good hand of his God upon him.

Ezr 7:13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.

Ezr 7:23 Whatsoever is commanded by the God of heaven, let it be diligently done for the house of the God of heaven: for why should there be wrath against the realm of the king and his sons?

Ezr 7:26 And whosoever will not do the law of thy God, and the law of the king, let judgment be executed speedily upon him, whether it be unto death, or to banishment, or to confiscation of goods, or to imprisonment.

Governmental autonomy was given back, even unto the Death Penalty, or Executive Justice.

Therefore, the WTS/JW 455 BCE (really 444 BC) has nothing to do with the prophecy of Daniel 9:25. Furthermore, the "Seventy weeks" which were "determined" (sectioned, cut from) come from a greater prophecy, namely the 2,300 of Daniel 8:13-14,26; Revelation 9:13-15, etc. Daniel was even studying Jeremiah's prophecy of the "70 years", and God told Daniel, through Gabriel, that there was yet to be a far greater period, 7 times 70 years, or "70 weeks", or 490 years.

coconut theology · Feb 4, 2020

Deeje said:
Where will I find Adam slaying a lamb?

I provided the texts already and you did not believe them and simply said "IMHO", which means you left scripture and relied upon yourself, and fallen thinking.

Read them again, slowly:

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Paul said:

Heb_9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

The "coats of skins" come from the "slain" lamb, and the shedding of its blood by the sinner (*). Forgiveness of sin always costs something. God does not 'poof' 'coats of skins' out of thin air. No. It required "death", for the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), and thus "death" reigned from "Adam" (Romans 5:14). In order for God to make "coats of skins" it required sacrifice of the life of the animal, which in type, represented the anti-type (Christ Jesus). It was an object lesson to Adam about the Adam to come. The natural lamb was slain, teaching about the spiritual Lamb (John 1:29,36) that was to be slain, 4,000 years later (4 days with the LORD, in the "midst of the week" (Great Cosmic Week).

(*, God doesn't change) Lev 4:27 And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty;
Lev 4:28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.
Lev 4:29 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.

Adam, was also the head and priest of the household and marriage, as made so by God from the beginning, which is why God came to Adam first, for it was he which had the "dominion" (Genesis 1:26,28; Ephesians 5:23). Thus as priest and head of the household, it was Adam's duty and role to offer the sacrifice in that instance, and from that time forward, in faith in the promise of Genesis 3:15. Even Eve believed, thinking that Cain was the Messiah promised, "the man" "from the LORD" (Genesis 4:1). To her great disappointment, Cain turned out to be the murderer of his brother (Abel).

The entire family, of Adam, Eve and later Cain and Abel would bring their sacrificial offering to the Gate of Eden (type of the Sanctuary pattern) (even though they could not enter any longer physically, they could by faith, for it was to be restored to them, Ezekiel 47:12; Revelation 2:7, 22:2,14, for God took that which God had "planted" (Genesis 2:8) back to Heaven (3rd) just before the flood of Noah to preserve it in the New Jerusalem above). Adam and Eve had taught their children, as Noah for his children, and Abraham did for Isaac, etc.

That you do not believe this (as I know what the WTS/JW actually believe here) shows you do not understand the first thing about the plan of redemption.

Deeje said:
Genesis says that God provided the garments of skin.....not because of a sacrifice but because modesty dictated that their loin coverings were no longer sufficient now that a knowledge of good and evil had been unleashed. It was to ameliorate their feelings of shame. An added benefit would have been as a protection from the hostile environment outside the garden on cursed ground, with "thorns and thistles" to contend with. The particular animal whose skin was used is not named.

See previous response.

Deeje said:
"The Lamb, slain from the founding of the world" was contained in the prophesy of Genesis 3:15.

Yep.

Deeje said:
Lambs and goats were used for sacrificial purposes from the time of Abel who is the first one in scripture mentioned to have made a blood sacrifice to God.

As stated, they learned this form their parents, Adam and Eve. See previous response.

Deeje said:
The reason why Adam and his wife never made a sacrifice to God was for the same reason why they never uttered a word of remorse or repented of their sin.....being willful and deliberate, there was no basis upon which to forgive them. Their lives changed dramatically once they were expelled from the garden.

You are quite mistaken. Both Adam and Eve repented. And believed the promise (see Genesis 4:1 for example).

Deeje said:
This is absolute nonsense IMO. You are reading into scripture something that is not there. When Adam and Eve walked the earth the 'players' in the prophesy of Genesis 3:15 were unknown.

Hardly. Adam had spoken directly to Christ (the Son) and understood that the "seed" (Genesis 4:25) to come would be the Son taking upon the fallen flesh of fallen mankind and to die in his own stead (and Eve at first thought it was to be Cain, later Seth). Adam knew directly of the serpent (Satan), and of his "seed", having first hand experience with the devil. Also, there were "Angels" (Cherubims) present with the "voice (Son) of the LORD (Father)", in the Garden (Genesis 3:24) whose duty was also to further instruct Adam and Eve as they would come to the gate ("in the process of time"; Genesis 4:3).

Deeje said:
Not until Jesus came and John identified him as "the Lamb of God", did the Jews know who was represented by the Passover Lamb whose blood saved the Israelites from losing their firstborn in Egypt.

This is also nonsense, as the prophecies for many years had foretold this, long before John, who was citing prophecy:

Isa_9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

etc.

Mal 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Moses, knew of the pattern also, and even wrote Genesis.

Joh_5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

Abraham knew:

Joh_8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Deeje said:
The cross does not belong in Christianity.

I have shown in at least 12 examples that it most certainly does, as it was given by God from Heaven, even the "pattern" in the Sanctuary itself (Psalms 77:13). It doesn't belong in the WTS, because it (WTS) is not Christianity.

Deeje said:
It is not found in the catacombs at all until the 4th century

It is found in the writings of those persons that existed long before the 4th century, and they are already cited, to which you did not even bother to address even once.

Deeje said:
and we all know why that was. Jews were forbidden, as were Christians, to make images to use in worship.

You do not know the sanctuary, nor the commandment itself. In the sanctuary were images of Angels (as made of gold and as drawings) and Trees and Fruit, etc. It was God that commanded the bronze serpent to be made. You are greatly ignorant of even the simplest things in scripture. You are trapped in the mindset of WTS.

Deeje said:
Yet you still refer to something that was done 90 odd years ago...we are way past that now.

Yet the WTS flip-flop on so many things, including dates/times. Even now they (WTS) are attempting to re-evaluate their last known date.

Deeje said:
When Daniel foretold that God's would cleanse, whiten and refine a people in this time of the end, (Daniel 12:9-10) It is clear that these are processes that take time. Slowly over decades our beliefs and practices were refined and cleansed of all the pagan rubbish that had crept into Christendom's teachings over many centuries.

Daniel 12 is about character. I have an entire study on it. Again, you assume that because pagans twisted that which was given by God in the Sanctuary, it was evil. No, the reality still exists, even though pagans (and even some Christians) abuse it.

Deeje said:
Jesus said it, not me....
“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’"

Here they are offering their excuses which are instantly rejected.

You do not understand the "when" of that verse.

Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

It is at the beginning of Jesus return, just as He is about to come out of the Most Holy Place of the Heavenly Sanctuary:

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

They speak those things as they receive the plagues, when probation is closed ...

Deeje · Feb 4, 2020

@coconut theology .....whatever you reckon....do you really expect anyone to wade through all of that.....seriously?

After I tell you that I do not wish to continue this “discussion” (lecture) and you blather away anyhow, post after post (and still they come!)....if you turned up at my door and did that, I would close the door in your face. It is very rude to force your beliefs on people who are not buying what you are selling. When someone tells you it’s enough....please be told.

If you’ve got it all worked out, then good for you. We can let God be the judge of that, and he will let us know who’s got it right and who hasn’t. I don’t think we have long to wait....

You are obviously intent on forcing your beliefs here by your copious use of cut and paste. How many other sites have you posted all that stuff on? (Rhetorical question)

If you believe that this substitutes for the global preaching that Jesus foretold, then I’ll leave you to it.

Separation is what it’s all about.....so, I will consider us ‘separated’. OK?

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