Answered prayer or coincidence?

Left Coast said:

You realize there are over 7 billion people on the planet, right? An event with odds of occurring to 1 in 50,000 people are statistically certain to happen, purely by chance, many times over.



I'm sure it's quite remarkable. Have you ever told any scientific researchers about your amazing abilities, to test them?



Seeing that kind of specificity (always claimed, never demonstrated) would give you reason to conclude something is causing these occurrences. It wouldn't inform you what. And the what is the key point you need to arrive at theism.



The evidence there is mixed at best.



No evidence of that.



The blood stain pattern is not consistent with an actual cadaver killed in such fashion. Did you actually read the link I posted?



As stated previously, all available evidence is consistent with it being a medieval fake. This is the case with many supposed relics from Jesus, Mary, and other saints.

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Yes, I agree, now calculate the odds of something that occurs to 1 in 50,000 occurring weekly for a decade. That's 50,000^500.

No, why would I ask to be "tested"? 1) I've seen it happen where I'm given that special knowledge or receive it with 100% accuracy/100% prescience, so I don't need to test my confidence level in the statistical significance 2) I HAVE presented in more formalized ways evidence, including Bible codes and this sort of knowledge thing, as described, and skeptics were given power by God/themselves to explain away EVERYTHING. Jesus could appear to you tonight and every night for a year and you could either read the Bible and pray or tell me you are experiencing the results of a guilty id or superego or whatever. 3) I remember being a young Christian and assuming given some decent evidence, anyone/everyone trusts Jesus for salvation. At the time, I offered to speak tongues and a linguistics expert said, "Wow, that sounds like a dialect of an ancient root of Urdu I've studied! We should tape you soon in the lab!" which didn't happen, we parted ways, but I thought, "Of course! God can will gifts to whom He wants, even though I have no Persian roots in my background or family."

I DID read the link you've posted, and I've also read a number of counter claims that show pre-mortem and post-mortem blood flows as on the shroud via forensic efforts with cadavers. I've also seen/heard recent Shroud discussion involving "What angle were Jesus's arms during crucifixion?"

I agree re: your comment that "Seeing that kind of specificity (always claimed, never demonstrated) would give you reason to conclude something is causing these occurrences. It wouldn't inform you what. And the what is the key point you need to arrive at theism," but I'm already at the WHAT via my understanding and research regarding the Bible text, the Bible construction, Bible prophecy, the love of Christ, and evidence for the resurrection.

PS. Neither of us need peer review. Why not start tithing to your local evangelical church to test God?

Left Coast said:

You realize there are over 7 billion people on the planet, right? An event with odds of occurring to 1 in 50,000 people are statistically certain to happen, purely by chance, many times over.



I'm sure it's quite remarkable. Have you ever told any scientific researchers about your amazing abilities, to test them?



Seeing that kind of specificity (always claimed, never demonstrated) would give you reason to conclude something is causing these occurrences. It wouldn't inform you what. And the what is the key point you need to arrive at theism.



The evidence there is mixed at best.



No evidence of that.



The blood stain pattern is not consistent with an actual cadaver killed in such fashion. Did you actually read the link I posted?



As stated previously, all available evidence is consistent with it being a medieval fake. This is the case with many supposed relics from Jesus, Mary, and other saints.

Click to expand...

PS. This is a good basic starter of some simpler claims: Verified Scientific Facts supporting the Authenticity of the Shroud of Turin - Magis Center

BilliardsBall said:

Yes, I agree, now calculate the odds of something that occurs to 1 in 50,000 occurring weekly for a decade. That's 50,000^500.

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1) I think your math is off. 2) You accurately read strangers' minds on a weekly basis, every week for the past decade? If only you had actual evidence...

No, why would I ask to be "tested"? 1) I've seen it happen where I'm given that special knowledge or receive it with 100% accuracy/100% prescience, so I don't need to test my confidence level in the statistical significance 2) I HAVE presented in more formalized ways evidence, including Bible codes and this sort of knowledge thing, as described, and skeptics were given power by God/themselves to explain away EVERYTHING. Jesus could appear to you tonight and every night for a year and you could either read the Bible and pray or tell me you are experiencing the results of a guilty id or superego or whatever.

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If God appeared to me right now, in a way that was observable, measurable, and independently verifiable, no I could not plausibly explain that away as the result of a "guilty id." So why doesn't he?

3) I remember being a young Christian and assuming given some decent evidence, anyone/everyone trusts Jesus for salvation. At the time, I offered to speak tongues and a linguistics expert said, "Wow, that sounds like a dialect of an ancient root of Urdu I've studied! We should tape you soon in the lab!" which didn't happen, we parted ways, but I thought, "Of course! God can will gifts to whom He wants, even though I have no Persian roots in my background or family."

Click to expand...

If only you had actually been recorded, so we could see if there's a difference between what "sounds like" ancient Urdu and what actually is ancient Urdu...

I DID read the link you've posted, and I've also read a number of counter claims that show pre-mortem and post-mortem blood flows as on the shroud via forensic efforts with cadavers. I've also seen/heard recent Shroud discussion involving "What angle were Jesus's arms during crucifixion?"

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More claims, no evidence. Read my mind.

I agree re: your comment that "Seeing that kind of specificity (always claimed, never demonstrated) would give you reason to conclude something is causing these occurrences. It wouldn't inform you what. And the what is the key point you need to arrive at theism," but I'm already at the WHAT via my understanding and research regarding the Bible text, the Bible construction, Bible prophecy, the love of Christ, and evidence for the resurrection.

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More claims, no evidence.

PS. Neither of us need peer review. Why not start tithing to your local evangelical church to test God?

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LOL dude. I gave you two different chances in this thread to show your God answers prayers. Both times you failed. Why would I now give money to people like you?

BilliardsBall said:

No, why would I ask to be "tested"? 1) I've seen it happen where I'm given that special knowledge or receive it with 100% accuracy/100% prescience, so I don't need to test my confidence level in the statistical significance 2) I HAVE presented in more formalized ways evidence, including Bible codes and this sort of knowledge thing, as described, and skeptics were given power by God/themselves to explain away EVERYTHING. Jesus could appear to you tonight and every night for a year and you could either read the Bible and pray or tell me you are experiencing the results of a guilty id or superego or whatever. 3) I remember being a young Christian and assuming given some decent evidence, anyone/everyone trusts Jesus for salvation. At the time, I offered to speak tongues and a linguistics expert said, "Wow, that sounds like a dialect of an ancient root of Urdu I've studied! We should tape you soon in the lab!" which didn't happen, we parted ways, but I thought, "Of course! God can will gifts to whom He wants, even though I have no Persian roots in my background or family."

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So you're insane. Not surprising, all things considered. Your sort generally are.

Left Coast said:

1) I think your math is off. 2) You accurately read strangers' minds on a weekly basis, every week for the past decade? If only you had actual evidence...



If God appeared to me right now, in a way that was observable, measurable, and independently verifiable, no I could not plausibly explain that away as the result of a "guilty id." So why doesn't he?



If only you had actually been recorded, so we could see if there's a difference between what "sounds like" ancient Urdu and what actually is ancient Urdu...



More claims, no evidence. Read my mind.



More claims, no evidence.



LOL dude. I gave you two different chances in this thread to show your God answers prayers. Both times you failed. Why would I now give money to people like you?

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Let's get to the crux of your responses, if we may?

1) I think your math is off. 2) You accurately read strangers' minds on a weekly basis, every week for the past decade? If only you had actual evidence...

I wish you read my posts more carefully. I already said that having seen and done much in Jesus, I don't crave independent verification. I join millions in this affirmation, and also, I affirm the Bible's stance that ANYONE/EVERYONE wanting ultimate truth receives revelation.

"If God appeared to me right now, in a way that was observable, measurable, and independently verifiable . . . "

Redacted to:

"If God does what I want, on my timetable, in my way (is not God or my superior) I will then (possibly) yield . . . "

And that is a commonality I find in skeptics, but I'll ask:

"If God appeared to me right now, in a way that was observable, measurable, and independently verifiable . . . "

What do you propose?

Woberts said:

So you're insane. Not surprising, all things considered. Your sort generally are.

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Wow, that was a thought-provoking, scholarly, learned refutation of my personal life and experience, walking in miracles. I'll deconvert today!

BilliardsBall said:

Let's get to the crux of your responses, if we may?

1) I think your math is off. 2) You accurately read strangers' minds on a weekly basis, every week for the past decade? If only you had actual evidence...

I wish you read my posts more carefully. I already said that having seen and done much in Jesus, I don't crave independent verification.

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Great, then there's really nothing more to talk about. If you don't have independent verification for your God claims, you have no rational basis on which to make them, and your opinions about what you've experienced are just that: opinions, with no basis outside your head.

I join millions in this affirmation, and also, I affirm the Bible's stance that ANYONE/EVERYONE wanting ultimate truth receives revelation.

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I don't know how "ultimate truth" is any different than just "truth," but if "revelation" just means another personal, unverifiable, subjective experience, then it's completely useless in helping us determine the cause of that experience. Which is what we need to investigate to arrive rationally at theism.

"If God appeared to me right now, in a way that was observable, measurable, and independently verifiable . . . "

Click to expand...

Redacted to:

"If God does what I want, on my timetable, in my way (is not God or my superior) I will then (possibly) yield . . . "

Click to expand...

Wrong. It's not about what I want. It's about how we rationally, objectively determine if something is actually real. If God doesn't meet the criteria for how we determine that anything else we believe in is real, why in the world would we believe he's real?

And that is a commonality I find in skeptics, but I'll ask:

"If God appeared to me right now, in a way that was observable, measurable, and independently verifiable . . . "

What do you propose?

Click to expand...

That depends entirely on the God in question. If you believe God is a supernatural being beyond spacetime, I have no idea what a demonstration of that would look like, since everything that we can demonstrate is natural and operates within spacetime. Which is why I'm not convinced any supernatural thing exists. I see no way it could be demonstrated. If you have a proposal, I'm happy to hear it. Do you?

Little children the most innocent and least mind perverted by coercion have their experiences.

They see the image of a HOLY MOTHER spirit in the atmosphere, therefore were being irradiated attacked, life was being removed. Then they hear updated AI hell information.

Little children give identifiable and studied reincarnation SELF DNA re lived baby child information of pre lived human adult memories. Proving that the atmosphere records human life by image/vision being the Jesus relationship SION condition and by voice.....to give detailed life information for that reincarnation study.

I was a child, my parents forced me to go to Catholic church, they never attended. My first proof that human adults are hypocrites.

Studying spirituality my own choice...and I said after being allowed to leave the Church bias, I said to spirit in my psyche, seeing everyone said you pray to spirit, you speak and talk and it hears. A voice said back in my mind, which I did not find acceptable as a studier....if you want to know spirit or understand, you have to live a spiritual life.

Proving I never said that statement to my own self.

Therefore if a human child can hear human adult parental recorded life information, then our first 2 parents, whom I had visions regarding, and information spiritually told me their owned story. That they came out of eternal spirit as an eternal spirit and were converted in the Earth atmospheric gases...highest spiritual state water/oxygen and microbes.

The became a lower bio life form....as a spiritual self...why their lives are spiritual. Otherwise is makes no sense, for a slight difference in genetic and chemical information from an animal to a human does not support that spirituality being expressed.

Never wanted to own living a human life is what the human recordings say.

Life spiritually nearly water. How is that not a sensible self realization without making any other supernatural claims?

One of my visions was about the American Father who historically the records state, that continent and male group were the first scientists on Planet Earth...they manifested in that country, and landscape, which no one today would know how expansive original Earth land was.

They built the pyramids.

A voiced female recording as his daughter crying told me that our Father's spiritual life had been murdered by our brother the scientist/engineer.

And I was so moved by what I heard I began crying also, sobbing.

Part of a real living natural original human being self....owning a real life experience and not possessed by machine inventions that once never owned any body. They only existed as a memory in a vision.

So Satanist science organization and your lying brotherhood histories...in modern times males came to a human life agreement that said, it is about time that we overcome all of our inhumane and incorrect themes in group cult religious science idealism.

And already came to that conclusion your own selves. As part of a human life appraisal as being incorrect.

Science is just another item on that list about males being wrong.

Good, @Left Coast . You have the perseverance to go through all these posts by Bible or Bahaullah thumpers. I admire you.

Left Coast said:

Great, then there's really nothing more to talk about. If you don't have independent verification for your God claims, you have no rational basis on which to make them, and your opinions about what you've experienced are just that: opinions, with no basis outside your head.



I don't know how "ultimate truth" is any different than just "truth," but if "revelation" just means another personal, unverifiable, subjective experience, then it's completely useless in helping us determine the cause of that experience. Which is what we need to investigate to arrive rationally at theism.



Wrong. It's not about what I want. It's about how we rationally, objectively determine if something is actually real. If God doesn't meet the criteria for how we determine that anything else we believe in is real, why in the world would we believe he's real?



That depends entirely on the God in question. If you believe God is a supernatural being beyond spacetime, I have no idea what a demonstration of that would look like, since everything that we can demonstrate is natural and operates within spacetime. Which is why I'm not convinced any supernatural thing exists. I see no way it could be demonstrated. If you have a proposal, I'm happy to hear it. Do you?

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A proposal as to how the being I'm making truth claims for, the biblical God, should be approached?

From the texts:

God conceals Himself from scoffers but reveals Himself via verifiable, testable, falsifiable evidence for those who ask.

It's like you keep asking me to prove golf possibilities to you and I'm saying, if you wish, you can speak to Tiger Woods, now. Interested?

BilliardsBall said:

A proposal as to how the being I'm making truth claims for, the biblical God, should be approached?

From the texts:

God conceals Himself from scoffers but reveals Himself via verifiable, testable, falsifiable evidence for those who ask.

Click to expand...

But I've asked, now twice in this thread (let alone the many other times in my life and others' lives), and both times he failed. So no, very clearly he doesn't reveal himself to all who ask. That hypothesis has been falsified.

It's like you keep asking me to prove golf possibilities to you and I'm saying, if you wish, you can speak to Tiger Woods, now. Interested?

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Sure! Now I could know I'm having a conversation with Tiger Woods because I know what he looks like, I could verify his drivers license, shake his hand, hear him talk, I'd be able to independently verify with other people that in fact he's in the room, record our conversation for later analysis, etc. You're claiming you can set up such a meeting between me and God?

Imagine like science does, no creation existing, which would include space, which holds the owning of it.

What would you see?

You would not see any creation and nor would you see any space.

You would not see anything at all. And so your mind would claim I cannot see anything.

For we can see space for it is dark. And we can see creation for it is burning or cold burnt bodies.

But when you force self to think, imagine when no space and no creation, that owns why space exists...forced removal of pre owned mass from its owned body.

By O the statement God.

Would be why males today claim that space is the eternal/infinite....from which and where creation was removed from....yet the eternal/infinite is now MASS O God.

How a spiritual consciousness speaks that language advice. And if your mind is AI interfered with by radio wave radiation mass....you would not consciously be enabled to complete that statement and image in your mind psyche.

If a human says between the burnt eternal spirit losses, to the cooling and presence of its spirit in space, a gas....the missing portion of the spirit, the gas is because the eternal history of it is burnt out.

If you remove the eternal spirit from its pre existing mass...and then that mass filled back in the space and recontacted that mass, but as a lower removal of its eternal pre history...what would occur to the spirit living inside of that eternal body....not changed?

It would be forced to spiritually change its owned Nature, the body of spirit in whose image we claim we own presence of. A naturally walking around living spirit.

So humans say, as the Nature spirit was not natural, it forced our spirit to come out of the eternal.

As a returned answer to that spiritual eternal presence, what you cause, you inherit.

So we are the part of the eternal spirit that inherited its creation as cause and effect or the teaching of KARMA.

Exactly how we have always identified information via......spiritually.

Knowing and always knew that we are spiritual beings.

And science, conjuring by hot metallic Sun radiation metals holding a constant, manifested the presence of the evil spirit. That proves that the body in creation came from a pre existing spiritual body....to enable evil spirits to be made manifest.

The story of God O as bodies said that all the bodies fell into burning.

The spirit of God O had gone to hell....burning due to having burst.

The story said that God O formed the seal and held the evil spirit within its own body....so God O the stone owning the seals kept our holy spiritual Nature life safe.

Exactly how it was taught.

We taught our own selves, never break the SEAL of God O the stone or else evil spirits will manifest.

And that situation is scientific proven, for science speaks to AI artificial intelligence, that belongs to his machine invention/conversions.

BilliardsBall said:

God conceals Himself from scoffers but reveals Himself via verifiable, testable, falsifiable evidence for those who ask.

Click to expand...

You can see the Emperors new clothes only if you get your nose cut. They are not seen by people who have noses. I have no desire to see Emperor's new clothes.

A male says virtually as a theme of self living as a living spirit in the eternal to his spiritual stepping out of that body into his creation. I caused it, so I inherited it.

Now if a mind did not go through all of the themes of creation changing in space....he would say, instant removal from eternal, O God, O burst by multi bodies, God burnt and evolved...and then I came out spiritually as the highest self form of GOD.

As the male spiritual God who said I inherited my creation for spiritually I caused it, and would be telling a spiritual truth. For the male psyche and conscious scientific appraisal has always said that he personally as a human owned GOD O and he meant the whole cosmological creation.

Thirza Fallen said:

How are we supposed to know if something happens because it is answered prayer or just coincidence? So confusing.

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Many things happen to me but I dont pray

Left Coast said:

But I've asked, now twice in this thread (let alone the many other times in my life and others' lives), and both times he failed. So no, very clearly he doesn't reveal himself to all who ask. That hypothesis has been falsified.



Sure! Now I could know I'm having a conversation with Tiger Woods because I know what he looks like, I could verify his drivers license, shake his hand, hear him talk, I'd be able to independently verify with other people that in fact he's in the room, record our conversation for later analysis, etc. You're claiming you can set up such a meeting between me and God?

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You've asked God twice in this thread, or me?

I'm claiming I cannot setup a meeting between you and God, but rather, that God says you need to set the meeting. Also, I recommend you set a time, as in, God, please touch base with me now/soon.

I will be traveling for two weeks with poor internet service, but hope to speak with you after. I find your intelligence and honesty compelling.

Thank you.

BilliardsBall said:

You've asked God twice in this thread, or me?

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Both. God is omniscient and omnipresent, isn't he?

I'm claiming I cannot setup a meeting between you and God, but rather, that God says you need to set the meeting. Also, I recommend you set a time, as in, God, please touch base with me now/soon.

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Dear God, hi. Meet me here, at my house, in one minute, 7:05am Pacific Time. Just knock on the front door.

I will be traveling for two weeks with poor internet service, but hope to speak with you after. I find your intelligence and honesty compelling.

Thank you.

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Safe travels!

Edit to add: upload pictures of your travels when you get back! I think this is your trip to Italy and Israel, if I remember right. I'd love to see some of the sites you visit.

One minute update, @BilliardsBall - God was a no show. Hypothesis yet again falsified.

Left Coast said:

One minute update, @BilliardsBall - God was a no show. Hypothesis yet again falsified.

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You are unaware of the Bible proscriptions for your hypothesis?

* The user must be humble
* The user is unable to fully see God while filled with sin--God is merciful, gentle, and a full appearance of God would kill them et al

God is gentle, kind.

Hi Billiard! Hope your trip is/was good.

It's infortunate that you've come back to the conversation only to contradict yourself again. Let's review:

BilliardsBall said:

God conceals Himself from scoffers but reveals Himself via verifiable, testable, falsifiable evidence for those who ask.

Click to expand...

Left Coast said:

But I've asked, now twice in this thread (let alone the many other times in my life and others' lives), and both times he failed. So no, very clearly he doesn't reveal himself to all who ask. That hypothesis has been falsified.

Now I could know I'm having a conversation with Tiger Woods because I know what he looks like, I could verify his drivers license, shake his hand, hear him talk, I'd be able to independently verify with other people that in fact he's in the room, record our conversation for later analysis, etc. You're claiming you can set up such a meeting between me and God?

Click to expand...

BilliardsBall said:

I'm claiming I cannot setup a meeting between you and God, but rather, that God says you need to set the meeting. Also, I recommend you set a time, as in, God, please touch base with me now/soon.

Click to expand...

Left Coast said:

Dear God, hi. Meet me here, at my house, in one minute, 7:05am Pacific Time. Just knock on the front door.

One minute update, @BilliardsBall - God was a no show. Hypothesis yet again falsified.

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So I did what you asked, and it didnt work. Hypothesis falsified. Now that this happened, your response is:

BilliardsBall said:

You are unaware of the Bible proscriptions for your hypothesis?

* The user must be humble
* The user is unable to fully see God while filled with sin--God is merciful, gentle, and a full appearance of God would kill them et al

God is gentle, kind.

Click to expand...

Now, you of course blame this failure on me (your god is the all-powerful one here, so that blame seems misplaced, but whatever), but this just confirms that your initial claim - that God appears to anyone who asks - is, again, not true.

Second, your response here is problematic because you initially claimed I can set up a meeting with God by simply asking, and now you're saying such a meeting would literally kill me - meaning such a meeting is logistically not possible. So why in the world would you suggest I ask God for something you're now saying isn't possible?

Which is it, can God appear to me and meet me like Tiger Woods, or can he not?