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Abraham should have said, 'No.'

Galateasdream

Active Member
Well, since after I showed that I did understand your argument, and you dismissed my argument, on the basis that you claimed, I did not understand, I think you have not really addressed the arguments against you, and I see three or four posters clearly refute your argument, but I don't expect that you would consider that, or agree with it... I think I called it correctly before. :)

I think I'm going to say, 'No.'

And I genuinely don't believe that you can actually believe what you just wrote, it's just too, well, unbelievable to me. Which places me in an odd situation, since that leaves nowhere for discussion to go.

Take care :)
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
I think I'm going to say, 'No.'

And I genuinely don't believe that you can actually believe what you just wrote, it's just too, well, unbelievable to me. Which places me in an odd situation, since that leaves nowhere for discussion to go.

Take care :)
First, it was, "I don't understand your argument".
Now it's, I'm basically a liar - I don't believe what I wrote. Funny.
 
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Galateasdream

Active Member
First, it was, "I don't understand your argument".
Now it's, I'm basically a liar. Funny.

Sad, really.

Because I'm not saying those things just out of spite, I actually hold them to be true. :(

Which is why I said, in sincerity, that leaves our discussions with nowhere to go.

Don't you find this thread a somewhat sad tale?

What do you think I've learned from the interactions I've had here?

And I'm asking honestly.

Don't just respond with a glib jab and say something like, 'you've learned you're wrong' or whatever, because clearly I don't think that and you clearly don't believe I think that.

What do you really think I'm going to take away from this thread and these interactions?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Sad, really.

Because I'm not saying those things just out of spite, I actually hold them to be true. :(

Which is why I said, in sincerity, that leaves our discussions with nowhere to go.

Don't you find this thread a somewhat sad tale?

What do you think I've learned from the interactions I've had here?

And I'm asking honestly.

Don't just respond with a glib jab and say something like, 'you've learned you're wrong' or whatever, because clearly I don't think that and you clearly don't believe I think that.

What do you really think I'm going to take away from this thread and these interactions?
The same thing you came in with. :D
Gotta go eat. Over and out. :)
 

Galateasdream

Active Member
The same thing you came in with.

If you genuinely believe that then it's even sadder than I first thought. :(

What a sad state of affairs.

I came into this expecting something better than what I found. Not that people would agree, but that people might be better behaved and more capable of sensible discussion. I was too optimistic. And I think I had forgotten just how blind, perhaps willfully blind, and duplicitous and callous some can be - especially those who seem to belong to the evangelical persuasion.

Internet discussions, and probably any discussion with certain types of people, are utterly futile and just basically toxic.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
If you genuinely believe that then it's even sadder than I first thought. :(

What a sad state of affairs.

I came into this expecting something better than what I found. Not that people would agree, but that people might be better behaved and more capable of sensible discussion. I was too optimistic. And I think I had forgotten just how blind, perhaps willfully blind, and duplicitous and callous some can be - especially those who seem to belong to the evangelical persuasion.

Internet discussions, and probably any discussion with certain types of people, are utterly futile and just basically toxic.
Oh my. :(
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Ai (Canaan) - Wikipedia

excerpt:

Up through the 1920s a "positivist" reading of the archeology to date was prevalent — a belief that archeology would prove, and was proving, the historicity of the Exodus and Conquest narratives that dated the Exodus in 1440 BC and Joshua's conquest of Canaan around 1400 BC.[3]:117 And accordingly, on the basis of excavations in the 1920s the American scholar William Foxwell Albright believed that Et-Tell was Ai.[3]:86

However, excavations at Et-Tell in the 1930s found that there was a fortified city there during the Early Bronze Age, between 3100 and 2400 BCE, after which it was destroyed and abandoned;[5] the excavations found no evidence of settlement in the Middle or Late Bronze Ages.[3]:117 These findings, along with excavations at Bethel, posed problems for the dating that Albright and others had proposed, and some scholars including Martin Noth began proposing that the Conquest had never happened but instead was an etiological myth; the name meant "the ruin" and the Conquest story simply explained the already-ancient destruction of the Early Bronze city.[3]:117[6][7] Archeologists also found that the later Iron Age I village appeared with no evidence of initial conquest, and the Iron I settlers seem to have peacefully built their village on the forsaken mound, without meeting resistance.[8]:331–32

There are five main hypotheses about how to explain the biblical story surrounding Ai in light of archaeological evidence. The first is that the story was created later on; Israelites related it to Joshua because of the fame of his great conquest. The second is that there were people of Bethel inhabiting Ai during the time of the biblical story and they were the ones who were invaded. In a third, Albright combined these two theories to present a hypothesis that the story of the Conquest of Bethel, which was only a mile and a half away from Ai, was later transferred to Ai in order to explain the city and why it was in ruins. Support for this can be found in the Bible, the assumption being that the Bible does not mention the actual capture of Bethel, but might speak of it in memory in Judges 1:22–26.[9]:80-82 Fourth, Callaway has proposed that the city somehow angered the Egyptians (perhaps by rebelling, and attempting to gain independence), and so they destroyed it as punishment.[10] The fifth is that Joshua's Ai is not to be found at et-Tell, but a different location entirely.

Most archaeologists support the identification of Ai with et-Tell. Koert van Bekkum writes that "Et-Tell, identified by most scholars with the city of Ai, was not settled between the Early Bronze and Iron Age

One big problem with connecting the dots between the bible and archaeology is the
dates. We have dates for Moses from ca 1500 BC to 1200 BC. Also, cities weren't
just destroyed by Joshua, they were destroyed in earth quakes, inter-Canaanite
wars and later Hebrew, Egyptian, Assyrian etc wars.
But just the names in Old Testament fascinate people. Many are not Hebrew, from
what culture do they come? Moses is easy - it's an Egyptian name. Some scientists
will take Philistine names like Goliath and employ it in studying Philistine culture -
and a the same time say the story of Goliath is a myth.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Ah, right, so you're a moral relativist, in which case this argument is not for you, since it presumes from the outset both moral realism and that you think child sacrifice is wrong.

If you think that it is culture that determines the morality of an act then sure, anything becomes permissible. If Hitler had won and the world was majority Nazi, the holocaust would have been seen as a good and under your moral relativism the guards following orders would have done the right thing.

If you genuinely think that child sacrifice can be morally acceptable I have no argument and simply shrug.

As always, it's Complicated.
It was Abraham's view that was moral equivalence, not mine.
People can't grasp how their sense of morals is predicated on what society thinks -
just asking someone this question often causes offense, "When did you decide
that gay marriage was acceptable"?
It suggests the person once thought otherwise about something they now feel
fully convinced of.
Polygamy was considered right, then it was considered wrong and soon it's going
to be considered right again (see my profile below.)
And Abraham had two wives (though even here, it's complicated)

Abraham probably felt child sacrifice was gross but he deferred to what the culture
said. It was God who had to disabuse him of his culture's viewpoint.
And I suspect he had an issue with polygamy too.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
God asks Abraham for blind obedience and rewards him, Jesus and Paul ask that you question your obedience to the law, and dismiss those who don't. What do you want god, obedience or reason
 
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Galateasdream

Active Member
It appears Abraham always believed Isaac would be o

Ok in the same sense that if a Christian murders children he can believe they'll be ok.

I don't see heaven as a way to justify murder, but ok. *shrug*

Like I said, if people genuinely believe that killing kids is acceptable there's not much for me to say. I guess there's not much for me to say here.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Then you should believe that Abraham should have said, 'No'.

Look, child sacrifice in ancient communities was a moral imperative.
It was felt the loss of one life could benefit or save many lives.
And only the devout were truly prepared to offer their child.
Abraham showed his worth by accepting his son must be sacrificed.

The current notion that it's "wrong" is a recent invention. We simply
have a different world view - we aren't more moral than those
people were, far from it (note my out-of-date Gallup Poll profile)

Our drug addled and adulterous world loves to condemn slavery
or child sacrifice - a kind of virtue signaling. Jesus spoke about
this phenomena, "If we had been in the days of the prophets we
would not have taken part in the shedding of blood..."
and
"every generation is wise in its own eyes."


So in Jesus' own day there was this same conversation going on.

You have two choices
1 - you don't believe in God, therefore there exists no absolute moral standard
2 - you believe in God and understand that God does not accept child sacrifice.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Ok in the same sense that if a Christian murders children he can believe they'll be ok.

I don't see heaven as a way to justify murder, but ok. *shrug*

Like I said, if people genuinely believe that killing kids is acceptable there's not much for me to say. I guess there's not much for me to say here.

What Christian murders?
You are a Christian if you follow Christ - how can you murder
and still think you are a Christian?
 

Galateasdream

Active Member
The current notion that it's "wrong" is a recent invention.

I already agreed this.

But it's irrelevant because, under moral realism, it was factually always wrong whether people realised it or not.

It's simple really. Do you think child killing is wrong even if no one agrees with you? If so, then to be consistent, you have to say that Abraham should have said no. There is no get out clause. There is only incoherence if one tries to both exonerate Abe and hold that child sacrifice was always wrong. You literally can't have both together without being inconsistent.
 

Ayjaydee

Active Member
I already agreed this.

But it's irrelevant because, under moral realism, it was factually always wrong whether people realised it or not.

It's simple really. Do you think child killing is wrong even if no one agrees with you? If so, then to be consistent, you have to say that Abraham should have said no. There is no get out clause. There is only incoherence if one tries to both exonerate Abe and hold that child sacrifice was always wrong. You literally can't have both together without being inconsistent.
Child killing does not always mean sacrifice
 

Galateasdream

Active Member
how can you murder
and still think you are a Christian?

Because under halbh's system murder doesn't exist because people don't die merely sleep awaiting resurrection. And if they are guaranteed to resurrect to eternal bliss then you've actually done them a favour. Under that ethic infanticide is not only not wrong, but a good thing.
 
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