If God is our Father

74x12 · Jan 29, 2020

MJFlores said:
What was Jesus before becoming a man?
Your assumption as well as the billions of people assumption was he was a God?
That happens when people don't use the Bible and take their answers on the assumption of others.
Again, what was Jesus before becoming a man?

John 5:38-40 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
38 The Father’s teaching does not live in you, because you don’t believe in the one the Father sent. 39 You carefully study the Scriptures. You think that they give you eternal life. These same Scriptures tell about me! 40 But you refuse to come to me to have that life.

Jesus was the prophecies that came true
Jesus was in the mind of God even before the world was created

1 Peter 1:20 Expanded Bible (EXB)
20 Christ was ·chosen [destined; L foreknown] before ·the world was made [L the foundation/creation of the world], but he was ·shown to the world [revealed] in these last times for your sake.

Who chose Christ before the world was made?
Who destined Christ before the world was made?
Who foreknown Christ before the world was made?
God chose Christ before the world was made
Hence Christ isn't God who made the choosing.

Jesus Christ is the firstborn of all creation
And as such he is not God but the first born of all creation.
Is that found in the Bible?
You betcha.

Colossians 1:15 New International Version (NIV)
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

If he is the firstborn over all creation then he is the reason why all creation exists.
He was created first by God Almighty and as being created, Jesus Christ is not the creator.

Now going back to who are the ANTICHRIST

2 John 7 New King James Version (NKJV)
7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

in another translation the same verse is written like this:

2 John 7 The Message (MSG)

7 There are a lot of smooth-talking charlatans loose in the world who refuse to believe that Jesus Christ was truly human, a flesh-and-blood human being. Give them their true title: Deceiver! Antichrist!

So if a person, people or an organization refuse to believe
that Jesus Christ was truly human, a flesh-and-blood human being
Then the Bible says they are deceivers and antichrist
And we all know that such persons do not have eternal life.

Now how can we regain eternal life before everything ends?
Remove yourself from such antichrist doctrine and follow the right teachings of Jesus Christ

John 17:1-3 New King James Version (NKJV)
Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

I can see you don't really understand the scriptures you quote from. But I'm not judging you; despite how you insist on judging me and others.

For me to remove myself from what I believe would be blasphemy and denial of Jesus Christ. I would never do that. I know to much now. You haven't blasphemed; because you say all this ignorantly in unbelief.

But I wish you well ...

MJFlores · Jan 29, 2020

Redemptionsong said:
In your opinion [MJFlores], was Jesus anointed with the Holy Spirit at his baptism?

If you would ask my opinion, I could be mistaken
However, if we would check the answer from the Bible then we would arrive at the truth.

And this is written:

Acts 10:37-38 New International Version (NIV)
You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

MJFlores · Jan 29, 2020

74x12 said:
I can see you don't really understand the scriptures you quote from. But I'm not judging you; despite how you insist on judging me and others.

For me to remove myself from what I believe would be blasphemy and denial of Jesus Christ. I would never do that. I know to much now. You haven't blasphemed; because you say all this ignorantly in unbelief.

But I wish you well ...

I think there is no language barrier whatsoever in our use of the Bible and between our posts.
I believe I have used a vernacular which is understood by all

Now, it is not my opinion that a person, a group or an organization belongs to the category of the ANTICHRIST
We could deduce and categorize such by the actuation, sets of beliefs and convictions to arrive at the classification
And the ANTICHRIST classification is not exclusive to people who don't believe Jesus Christ was truly human, a flesh-and-blood human being but also classed in other respects:

1 John 2:22 New International Version (NIV)
Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.

Here, the antichrists are the atheists, pagans and other religions which do not believe in Jesus Christ - it is all encompassing. However, they are enemies of Christ for the moment but it might not be true if they later on believe in the Father and his Son.

Conversely the Bible identifies who are teaching things from God and those who aren't. And we could see this in:

1 John 4:2-3 The Message (MSG)
Here’s how you test for the genuine Spirit of God. Everyone who confesses openly his faith in Jesus Christ—the Son of God, who came as an actual flesh-and-blood person—comes from God and belongs to God. And everyone who refuses to confess faith in Jesus has nothing in common with God. This is the spirit of antichrist that you heard was coming. Well, here it is, sooner than we thought!

So it is not a mere assertion but an assertion backed by the Bible. Who are the antichrists and who are of God. Who are going to the lake of fire come judgement day and who are going to be saved. It is not a biased judgement because the Bible has been there for the longest time. The thing is people like to deceive, be deceived and hear lies to feel better - even if it is devoid of the truth.

Redemptionsong · Jan 31, 2020

MJFlores said:
If you would ask my opinion, I could be mistaken
However, if we would check the answer from the Bible then we would arrive at the truth.

And this is written:

Acts 10:37-38 New International Version (NIV)
You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

I agree that the scriptures must be our evidence. The answer from the Bible invariable gives us a number of different passages to pool in order to provide a definitive answer. I like the fact that Jesus said, 'scripture cannot be broken'; for scripture to be so tightly framed, it should be possible to draw on evidence from multiple passages.

You have chosen one passage from Acts that says that, through the anointing of the Holy Spirit, 'God was with him'. The question that remains unresolved by looking at this one passage is whether or not God was indwelling, a Spirit in instant or constant communion with the soul of Jesus.

Do you understand, from scripture, that Jesus had God's Spirit within, and that communion was not broken following his anointing (the one exception being during his crucifixion)?

MJFlores · Jan 31, 2020

Redemptionsong said:
I agree that the scriptures must be our evidence. The answer from the Bible invariable gives us a number of different passages to pool in order to provide a definitive answer. I like the fact that Jesus said, 'scripture cannot be broken'; for scripture to be so tightly framed, it should be possible to draw on evidence from multiple passages.

You have chosen one passage from Acts that says that, through the anointing of the Holy Spirit, 'God was with him'. The question that remains unresolved by looking at this one passage is whether or not God was indwelling, a Spirit in instant or constant communion with the soul of Jesus.

Do you understand, from scripture, that Jesus had God's Spirit within, and that communion was not broken following his anointing (the one exception being during his crucifixion)?

God was with him. Immanuel!!!

Jesus is God because God was with him.
Is that it?
If God dwells in me, would that make me a God too?
If God dwells in a group of people will that make them Gods?

Ephesians 2:21-22 New International Version (NIV)
In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

Revelation 21:3 New International Version (NIV)
And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.

Please compare your assumption with the scriptures:

Redemptionsong said:
The question that remains unresolved by looking at this one passage is whether or not God was indwelling, a Spirit in instant or constant communion with the soul of Jesus.

74x12 · Jan 31, 2020

TrueBeliever37 said:
You evidently didn't read the verse I referenced. James 2:24 says we ARE saved by works and not by faith alone.

MJFlores said:
God was with him. Immanuel!!!

Jesus is God because God was with him.
Is that it?
If God dwells in me, would that make me a God too?
If God dwells in a group of people will that make them Gods?

I notice you change a word from the Bible. The scripture says that Immanuel means "God with us" and you change it to "God was with him". That's a key difference wouldn't you say?

MJFlores said:
Ephesians 2:21-22 New International Version (NIV)
In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

Revelation 21:3 New International Version (NIV)
And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.

Please compare your assumption with the scriptures:

Yes in the Lord. Jesus is the original stone of the temple. Without Him we're "nothing" and we have no access to the Spirit but through Him. What does that tell you about Him?

If you receive the holy Spirit you might be the hand, maybe the foot. But there is only one head of the body. (Colossians 1:18)

And if you receive the holy Spirit you might be a living stone of the temple of God. But there is only one Chief Cornerstone upon which the whole edifice is built. (Ephesians 2:20)

If you do receive the holy Spirit you know where the Spirit came from? Well John 15:5 gives us the hint. The Spirit --likened to nourishment-- flows from the vine --as sap flows-- into the branches. And if you the branch are cut off from Jesus Christ the "vine" then you aren't receiving any holy Spirit. So Jesus Himself is the source/fountain of the Spirit. Without Him we're nothing. So Jesus wasn't only filled with the holy Spirit like we can be. He's the source of the Spirit.

In John 15:26 Jesus claims He(Jesus) will send the Comforter(the holy Spirit) And He claims the same thing in John 16:7. So Jesus twice claims that He; Himself will send the holy Spirit. Yet, in John 14:26; He claims the Father will send the holy Spirit. So which is it?

The answer is clear. Jesus and the Father are one and the same. Jesus sends the Spirit, the Father sends the Spirit. There is only one God.

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

Here we see the same thing:

In Matthew 10:20 the Spirit of your Father will give you the words to say.
In Mark 13:11 The Holy Spirit will give you the words to say.
In Luke 21:15 Jesus Himself will give you the words to say.

Conclusion: these three are One and the same.

Iymus · Jan 31, 2020

The Son is not our God the only true God; but declared and represented him.

Foundation: Duty of Men under Grace & Love

1.
Heb 13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

1Co 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2.
Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
Joh 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

3.
Joh 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Joh 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

4.
Mar 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

5.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Joh 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not

MJFlores · Jan 31, 2020

74x12 said:
John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

Here we see the same thing:

In Matthew 10:20 the Spirit of your Father will give you the words to say.

In Mark 13:11 The Holy Spirit will give you the words to say.

In Luke 21:15 Jesus Himself will give you the words to say.

Conclusion: these three are One and the same.

Lots of things thrown there.

It is apparent that people who refuse to believe that Jesus is truly flesh and blood human, would really want to be antichrists at the cost of their very soul.

Maybe it is not time for you, but please have an open mind.
We are talking about the real Jesus not some Jesus invented by some pagan Emperor and his 300 bishops in 325 AD.

ON JOHN 10:30
Did Jesus admit divinity when He said “I and My Father are one” in John 10:30?

THE proponents of the Christ-is-God theology so confidently believe that Jesus’ statement in John 10:30 is an admission of His “divinity.” However, a careful study of the verse itself, comparing it with the truth written in other verses of the Bible, and an analysis of the Greek text of the verse will show us the error of believing that John 10:30 confirms the so-called “divinity” of the Lord Jesus Christ.

WHAT THE CONTEXT SAYS

If a person has an open-mind for truth, in just a glance of John 10:30 he can immediately see that it was only the opinion or interpretation of those believing that Jesus is God in saying that this verse confirms that Jesus is God. Nothing in the verse that says “Jesus Christ is God”:

John 10:30 NKJV
“I and My Father are one.”

Clearly, nowhere in the verse says that “Jesus is God.” It is only their interpretation (or should we say misinterpretation) or conclusion that the verse confirms that Jesus is God. Actually, if we carefully study the context, it clearly shows that Jesus is not talking about his “divinity.” Let us take a look of the previous verses of John 10:30:

John 10:27-28 NKJV
“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.”

Here, the Lord Jesus promise that He will give His “sheep” eternal life, and “they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.” Then in the next verse (verse 29), this is what He said:

John 10:29 NKJV
“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.”

The Lord Jesus said in verse 28 that “they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.” And in verse 29, He also said, “no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.” Thus, Jesus concluded in verse 30:

John 10:30 NKJV
“I and My Father are one.”

Thus, the previous verses (verses 27-29) explained why Jesus said, “I and My Father are one.” Jesus and His Father (the one He referred to in John 17:1-3 as the “one and only true God) ARE ONE because as much as no one can snatch the “sheep” from His hand, also no one is able to snatch them out of His Father's hand. Therefore, the context of the verse shows us that Jesus is not talking about his alleged “divinity”, but He is talking about how He and His Father will take care of His “sheep” – no one can snatch them from their hands.

WHAT OTHER TRANSLATIONS OF THIS VERSE SAY

Based on the context of John 10:27-30, it is clear that the Lord Jesus is talking about how He and His Father are one in taking care of His sheep. Further strengthening this position, many versions of the Bible support our position that when Jesus said in John 10:30, “I and My Father are one,” He is not referring to His alleged divinity, but rather on how He and his Father are one in taking care of His sheep.

THE MESSAGE:
“I and the Father are one heart and mind.”

CONTEMPORARY ENGLISH VERSION:
“I am one with the Father.”

SIMPLE ENGLISH BIBLE:
“My Father and I are united.”

LAMSA TRANSLATION:
“I and My Father are of one accord.”

WHAT THE OTHER VERSES OF THE BIBLE AFFIRM

For the Iglesia Ni Cristo, Jesus is not talking about His alleged “divinity” in John 10:30, but rather on how He and His Father are one in taking care of His sheep. However, the proponents of Christ-is-God theology insist that Jesus statement in John 10:30 (“I and My Father are one”) is an admission that Jesus and the Father are “one in number,” “one in nature (state of being”), “one in power or authority,” and “being one God.”

Saying that Jesus and the Father are “one in number,” “one in nature or state of being,” “one in power or authority,” and “being one God,” is truly UNSCRIPTURAL. The verse doesn’t say such things:

John 10:30 NKJV
“I and My Father are one.”

The interpretation or conclusion of the proponents of “Christ is God” regarding Jesus’ statement in John 10:30 are not only unscriptural but also AGAINST THE TRUTH written in the Bible.

Are Jesus and the Father one In Number?

Nowhere in the verse that Jesus said “I and My Father are one IN NUMBER.” Actually, the interpretation that when Jesus said “I and my Father” means they are “one in number” contradicts the very words of the Lord Jesus in John 8:16-18:

John 8:16-18 Amplified
“Yet even if I do judge, My judgment is true [My decision is right]; for I am not alone [in making it], but [there are two of Us] I and the Father, Who sent Me.
“In your [own] Law it is written that the testimony (evidence) of two persons is reliable and valid. [Deut. 19:15.]
“I am One [of the Two] bearing testimony concerning Myself; and My Father, Who sent Me, He also testifies about Me.”

Here, it is clear that Jesus and the Father are NOT ONE in number. Jesus explicitly said, “…for I am not alone [in making it], but [there are two of us] I and the Father…”

Are Jesus and the Father one in state of being?

It is also wrong to say that when the Lord Jesus said “I and My Father are one” they are one in nature or state of being. Jesus Himself explicitly said that the Father is spirit:

John 4:23-24 NKJV
“But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

The Lord Jesus Christ attests that the Father is “spirit”, while Jesus Himself also attests that a spirit has no flesh and bones which He has:

Luke 24:38-39 NKJV
“And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.’”

Although Jesus is now in heaven, He continues to be flesh and bones or human in nature. This is what the Bible says regarding the one at God’s right hand in heaven:

Psalms 80:17 NKJV
“Let Your hand be upon the man of Your right hand, Upon the son of man whom You made strong for Yourself.”

Jesus is the one referred to as the Man at God’s right hand:

Colossians 3:1 NKJV
“If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.”

Are Jesus and the Father one in power and authority?

In the previous verse of John 10:30, this is what Jesus said:

John 10:29 NKJV
“My Father, who has given them to Me, IS GREATER THAN ALL; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.” (Emphasis mine)

Jesus clearly said in John 10:29 that the Father is greater than all. Is Jesus co-equal of the Father? This is what Jesus Himself attested:

John 14:28 Amplified
“You heard Me tell you, I am going away and I am coming [back] to you. If you [really] loved Me, you would have been glad, because I am going to the Father; for the Father is greater and mightier than I am.”

Are Jesus and the Father “one God”?

The Lord Jesus Christ Himself does not agree in saying that He and His Father are “one God” because Jesus Himself taught us that His Father alone is the One and Only True God:

John 17:1 and 3, The Message
“Jesus said these things. Then, raising his eyes in prayer, he said:
Father, it's time…
“And this is the real and eternal life: That they know you, The one and only true God, And Jesus Christ, whom you sent.

The Lord Jesus explicitly stated that the Father is the one and only true God, and He is whom sent by the One true God. These words of Jesus clearly refute the conclusion of the proponents of Christ-is-God theology regarding John 10:30.

CONCLUSION

Thus, the context of John 10:27-30, the Greek Text of John 10:30, other English translations of the said verse, and the truth written in the Bible support and strengthen our position that the words of Jesus stating “I and My Father are one” refers not to the state of being or nature, not proving His alleged divinity, but that the Lord Jesus and the Father are one in taking care of the sheep.

Redemptionsong · Jan 31, 2020

MJFlores said:
Jesus is God because God was with him.
Is that it?
If God dwells in me, would that make me a God too?
If God dwells in a group of people will that make them Gods?

The first point to be made is that the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit. If God dwells in you by faith, it makes you a son of God, and joint heir with Christ [Romans 8:17]. It is worth noting, however, that Christ was only an heir up until he ascended the throne.

A son of God is a man with God's Spirit dwelling within. 'Sinners saved' are sons of God by adoption. Jesus Christ is the only man in whom the fulness of the Godhead dwelt.

Are the sons of God called 'gods' [elohim]? Yes [Read John 10: 33-36].

You'll often hear Jews claim that Israel is God's Son. The truth is, Israel is both an individual, the Messiah, and the body, the believers sanctified through the indwelling Holy Spirit. The idea that Israel as a people are talked about as gods is not without support. This does not mean that they should claim any power of their own, because the power to become 'as gods' is given them by God! Paul made this clear when people tried to worship him after he healed a man in Lystra [Acts 14].

When Jesus Christ, who was sinless, was raised from the dead, he was raised as our Lord and God. All power and dominion was given to him over heaven and earth. It is right that we should serve him, for in heaven He and the Father are as one.

Redemptionsong · Jan 31, 2020

MJFlores said:
Ephesians 2:21-22 New International Version (NIV)
In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

It's interesting that you should choose to quote this passage from Ephesians.

'In him' is an expression used twice in this scripture, and in both cases refers to Jesus Christ. So, this means that 'in Jesus Christ' the holy temple of God is built. Jesus Christ is the cornerstone, and the rest of the building consists of stones [saints] in the household of God. This temple is spiritual because the SPIRIT unites all within the temple. It follows that to be in Christ you have to have received of his Spirit, which is the Spirit of God.

74x12 · Jan 31, 2020

MJFlores said:
Lots of things thrown there.

It is apparent that people who refuse to believe that Jesus is truly flesh and blood human, would really want to be antichrists at the cost of their very soul.

Maybe it is not time for you, but please have an open mind.
We are talking about the real Jesus not some Jesus invented by some pagan Emperor and his 300 bishops in 325 AD.

ON JOHN 10:30
Did Jesus admit divinity when He said “I and My Father are one” in John 10:30?

THE proponents of the Christ-is-God theology so confidently believe that Jesus’ statement in John 10:30 is an admission of His “divinity.” However, a careful study of the verse itself, comparing it with the truth written in other verses of the Bible, and an analysis of the Greek text of the verse will show us the error of believing that John 10:30 confirms the so-called “divinity” of the Lord Jesus Christ.

WHAT THE CONTEXT SAYS

If a person has an open-mind for truth, in just a glance of John 10:30 he can immediately see that it was only the opinion or interpretation of those believing that Jesus is God in saying that this verse confirms that Jesus is God. Nothing in the verse that says “Jesus Christ is God”:

John 10:30 NKJV
“I and My Father are one.”

Clearly, nowhere in the verse says that “Jesus is God.” It is only their interpretation (or should we say misinterpretation) or conclusion that the verse confirms that Jesus is God. Actually, if we carefully study the context, it clearly shows that Jesus is not talking about his “divinity.” Let us take a look of the previous verses of John 10:30:

John 10:27-28 NKJV
“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.”

Here, the Lord Jesus promise that He will give His “sheep” eternal life, and “they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.” Then in the next verse (verse 29), this is what He said:

John 10:29 NKJV
“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.”

The Lord Jesus said in verse 28 that “they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.” And in verse 29, He also said, “no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.” Thus, Jesus concluded in verse 30:

John 10:30 NKJV
“I and My Father are one.”

Thus, the previous verses (verses 27-29) explained why Jesus said, “I and My Father are one.” Jesus and His Father (the one He referred to in John 17:1-3 as the “one and only true God) ARE ONE because as much as no one can snatch the “sheep” from His hand, also no one is able to snatch them out of His Father's hand. Therefore, the context of the verse shows us that Jesus is not talking about his alleged “divinity”, but He is talking about how He and His Father will take care of His “sheep” – no one can snatch them from their hands.

WHAT OTHER TRANSLATIONS OF THIS VERSE SAY

Based on the context of John 10:27-30, it is clear that the Lord Jesus is talking about how He and His Father are one in taking care of His sheep. Further strengthening this position, many versions of the Bible support our position that when Jesus said in John 10:30, “I and My Father are one,” He is not referring to His alleged divinity, but rather on how He and his Father are one in taking care of His sheep.

THE MESSAGE:
“I and the Father are one heart and mind.”

CONTEMPORARY ENGLISH VERSION:
“I am one with the Father.”

SIMPLE ENGLISH BIBLE:
“My Father and I are united.”

LAMSA TRANSLATION:
“I and My Father are of one accord.”

WHAT THE OTHER VERSES OF THE BIBLE AFFIRM

For the Iglesia Ni Cristo, Jesus is not talking about His alleged “divinity” in John 10:30, but rather on how He and His Father are one in taking care of His sheep. However, the proponents of Christ-is-God theology insist that Jesus statement in John 10:30 (“I and My Father are one”) is an admission that Jesus and the Father are “one in number,” “one in nature (state of being”), “one in power or authority,” and “being one God.”

Saying that Jesus and the Father are “one in number,” “one in nature or state of being,” “one in power or authority,” and “being one God,” is truly UNSCRIPTURAL. The verse doesn’t say such things:

John 10:30 NKJV
“I and My Father are one.”

The interpretation or conclusion of the proponents of “Christ is God” regarding Jesus’ statement in John 10:30 are not only unscriptural but also AGAINST THE TRUTH written in the Bible.

Are Jesus and the Father one In Number?

Nowhere in the verse that Jesus said “I and My Father are one IN NUMBER.” Actually, the interpretation that when Jesus said “I and my Father” means they are “one in number” contradicts the very words of the Lord Jesus in John 8:16-18:

John 8:16-18 Amplified
“Yet even if I do judge, My judgment is true [My decision is right]; for I am not alone [in making it], but [there are two of Us] I and the Father, Who sent Me.
“In your [own] Law it is written that the testimony (evidence) of two persons is reliable and valid. [Deut. 19:15.]
“I am One [of the Two] bearing testimony concerning Myself; and My Father, Who sent Me, He also testifies about Me.”

Here, it is clear that Jesus and the Father are NOT ONE in number. Jesus explicitly said, “…for I am not alone [in making it], but [there are two of us] I and the Father…”

Are Jesus and the Father one in state of being?

It is also wrong to say that when the Lord Jesus said “I and My Father are one” they are one in nature or state of being. Jesus Himself explicitly said that the Father is spirit:

John 4:23-24 NKJV
“But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

The Lord Jesus Christ attests that the Father is “spirit”, while Jesus Himself also attests that a spirit has no flesh and bones which He has:

Luke 24:38-39 NKJV
“And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.’”

Although Jesus is now in heaven, He continues to be flesh and bones or human in nature. This is what the Bible says regarding the one at God’s right hand in heaven:

Psalms 80:17 NKJV
“Let Your hand be upon the man of Your right hand, Upon the son of man whom You made strong for Yourself.”

Jesus is the one referred to as the Man at God’s right hand:

Colossians 3:1 NKJV
“If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.”

Are Jesus and the Father one in power and authority?

In the previous verse of John 10:30, this is what Jesus said:

John 10:29 NKJV
“My Father, who has given them to Me, IS GREATER THAN ALL; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.” (Emphasis mine)

Jesus clearly said in John 10:29 that the Father is greater than all. Is Jesus co-equal of the Father? This is what Jesus Himself attested:

John 14:28 Amplified
“You heard Me tell you, I am going away and I am coming [back] to you. If you [really] loved Me, you would have been glad, because I am going to the Father; for the Father is greater and mightier than I am.”

Are Jesus and the Father “one God”?

The Lord Jesus Christ Himself does not agree in saying that He and His Father are “one God” because Jesus Himself taught us that His Father alone is the One and Only True God:

John 17:1 and 3, The Message
“Jesus said these things. Then, raising his eyes in prayer, he said:
Father, it's time…
“And this is the real and eternal life: That they know you, The one and only true God, And Jesus Christ, whom you sent.

The Lord Jesus explicitly stated that the Father is the one and only true God, and He is whom sent by the One true God. These words of Jesus clearly refute the conclusion of the proponents of Christ-is-God theology regarding John 10:30.

CONCLUSION

Thus, the context of John 10:27-30, the Greek Text of John 10:30, other English translations of the said verse, and the truth written in the Bible support and strengthen our position that the words of Jesus stating “I and My Father are one” refers not to the state of being or nature, not proving His alleged divinity, but that the Lord Jesus and the Father are one in taking care of the sheep.

Flores, Flores ...

Those who add words to the Word of God should not call themselves translations. That is against he Word of God as we read in Proverbs 30:6. They should at best call themselves a supplement to the Word of God. That is just their opinion/view on what the scriptures mean. Not actual scripture or fact.

And anyway, of course the Father is greater than Him. He's flesh and blood human! Of course Jesus is still the Son of man(human) in heaven. Even though he's now immortal and His face shines like the sun. But why is He still human?

In order that God may put all His enemies under His human feet. This is necessary so that the enemies of mankind may be subdued under a human being. And so He can save all who believe in Him. This is God taking our enemies as His own. That is a powerful thing. Because He is our hope and in Him we find Life everlasting. It is through Him we obtain the victory and it is He who will make us worthy by cleansing us in His own blood. And this is so that He can then at the end of the age present the bride to God perfect and without blemish or spot. And she will be acceptable and beautiful to God. This is when the Son will deliver the Kingdom (complete, restored and holy) unto the Father. Then the Father will be all in all.

When a man and woman are married the scripture says these two become one flesh. And how do you think God will marry us?

THis is how:

GOD >>> joining with man is Jesus Christ <<< humanity

So Humanity will be joined to God in marriage and one with God through Jesus Christ who is the link! He's both God and man. We are supposed to be made one with God through Him. Without Him it's impossible.

This is why all power in heaven and in earth are given to the Son of man: Jesus Christ. It's not because He needs it for Himself. But it us we who need it! God has no fear of death or the devil or Hades. But we do. And so He came like us to do what we could not ever hope to do. That is defeat our enemies and place them under our feet. But through Jesus Christ we have access to all power in heaven and in earth and so we have become stronger than death and hell itself so long as we trust in Him. And we have authority over all the evil through Him. And access to God through Him.

MJFlores · Jan 31, 2020

Redemptionsong said:
When Jesus Christ, who was sinless, was raised from the dead, he was raised as our Lord and God. All power and dominion was given to him over heaven and earth. It is right that we should serve him, for in heaven He and the Father are as one.

74x12 said:
In order that God may put all His enemies under His human feet. This is necessary so that the enemies of mankind may be subdued under a human being. And so He can save all who believe in Him. This is God taking our enemies as His own. That is a powerful thing. Because He is our hope and in Him we find Life everlasting. It is through Him we obtain the victory and it is He who will make us worthy by cleansing us in His own blood. And this is so that He can then at the end of the age present the bride to God perfect and without blemish or spot. And she will be acceptable and beautiful to God. This is when the Son will deliver the Kingdom (complete, restored and holy) unto the Father. Then the Father will be all in all.

If you mixed things up, it would really end up gooey.

Thanks for you thoughts. But tell me why apostle Paul says Jesus Christ is different from God - even if Judgement Day comes?

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 New International Version (NIV)
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Apostle Paul wrote to the Corinthians long after Jesus Christ was taken to heaven
On these verses, apostle Paul said:

Death comes to people because of what one man did. But now there is resurrection from death because of another man. Who is that another man????
As the Scriptures say, “God put everything under his control.” When it says that “everything” is put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself. If Jesus Christ is God, this said Christ does not control God. It means the Son is different and God is different.
And Christ will be put under God so that God will be the complete ruler over everything. Christ will still be under God at the end of the world.

It is a historical fact that the doctrine "Jesus is God" was composed by the Roman Catholic Church when they convened the First Council of Nicaea in 325 AD. This council was called for by Emperor Constantine [who by the way is pagan] and 318 bishops during that time. First Council of Nicaea | Description, History, Significance, & Facts
Now since the Catholic Church is the main proponent of this doctrine, let us check their translation of the Bible to see for ourselves if it differs or not.

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)
But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have died. For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, after he has destroyed every ruler and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is plain that this does not include the one who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to the one who put all things in subjection under him, so that God may be all in all.

Please check your paperback bibles if these translations were made in good faith.
Now sometimes the truth is painful at first, but it is the truth we all have to face.

That truth is Jesus Christ is a human being
Jesus Christ will rule everything but it would not include God
Jesus Christ will put himself subject to God
And with these 3 aspects that will happen in the end of the world as written in the Bible
The Biblical Jesus Christ is not God and different from God.
Further the HS is not mentioned here at all in the scheme of things.

Redemptionsong · Feb 1, 2020

MJFlores said:
1 Corinthians 15:20-28 New International Version (NIV)
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

What this passage tells us is that everything came from God, and everything will return to God. But it is still God who comes amongst, and within!

Let me try a different tack with you. We seem to be reaching an impasse with this approach.

Do you think that you can be saved [from sin and death] without Jesus Christ as the mediator, and personal Saviour? You have claimed that only the Father is the true God, so surely the only true Saviour is the Father.

Why did the Father feel the need to resurrect Jesus Christ? If Jesus was no more than a man, surely his role would have finished at death, at the point at which he had been sacrificed. Why does the Father give Jesus Christ authority in heaven?

MJFlores · Feb 1, 2020

Redemptionsong said:
Do you think that you can be saved [from sin and death] without Jesus Christ as the mediator, and personal Saviour? You have claimed that only the Father is the true God, so surely the only true Saviour is the Father.

No matter how many cheer leaders we invite to chant
Give me a J, an E, S, U, S - Jesus is God!
Ra ra ra sis bumba!

If the reality is Jesus is a man and the Father alone is God
What could the cheer leaders and good old fashioned positive reinforcement do?
Based on your reply, you no longer have a bible verse/s to throw.
I know you can do better than that.

Redemptionsong said:
Why did the Father feel the need to resurrect Jesus Christ? If Jesus was no more than a man, surely his role would have finished at death, at the point at which he had been sacrificed. Why does the Father give Jesus Christ authority in heaven?

The mere fact that someone [the Father] resurrect Jesus Christ means Jesus Christ is not the God written in the Bible. On Judgement Day, Jesus will be back and he is not coming back as God but as a man [a human being] because he was not God from Day 1 and he is not God at Judgement Day.

Now if my opinion is without Bible backing then it is not the truth. So I should show my proof from the Bible:
Let us use a more understandable Bible, a Bible that even a 4 year old would understand.

Acts 17:30-31 International Children’s Bible (ICB)
In the past, people did not understand God, but God ignored this. But now, God tells everyone in the world to change his heart and life. God has decided on a day that he will judge all the world. He will be fair. He will use a man to do this. God chose that man long ago. And God has proved this to everyone by raising that man from death!”

Who is that man???
I know you know the answer.
Acts of the Apostles were written by apostle Luke and he wrote these under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
And he wrote it long after Jesus was taken up to heaven.
Are these words in your Bible, check them out.
Now let us see a more scholarly Bible version and the same verses say:

Acts 17:30-32 Expanded Bible (EXB)
·In the past, people did not understand God, and he ignored this [or God overlooked such times of ignorance]. But now, God ·tells [commands] all people in the world to ·change their hearts and lives [repent]. [L Because] God has ·set [fixed; established] a day that he will judge all the world with ·fairness [righteousness], by the man he ·chose [appointed] long ago. And God has ·proved [or given assurance of] this to everyone by raising that man from the dead!”

When the people heard about ·Jesus being raised [L the resurrection] from the dead, some of them ·laughed [mocked; scoffed]. But others said, “We will hear more about this from you ·later [L again].”

Did the Bible say God, he appointed another God? No, God appointed a man he chose long ago.
God chose this man even before his grand parents of his mother was born.
Did the Bible say God, raised another God from the dead? No, God raised that man from the dead.
And that man is Jesus Christ.

Now the Bible speaks and we should go beyond what is written.
If the Bible speaks Jesus is that man chosen by God long ago and he is the same man, God raised from the dead - then we can only conclude - Jesus is not God
and that is the truth
the whole truth
and nothing but the truth

Redemptionsong · Feb 1, 2020

The mere fact that someone [the Father] resurrect Jesus Christ means Jesus Christ is not the God written in the Bible. On Judgement Day, Jesus will be back and he is not coming back as God but as a man [a human being] because he was not God from Day 1 and he is not God at Judgement Day.

Now if my opinion is without Bible backing then it is not the truth. So I should show my proof from the Bible:
Let us use a more understandable Bible, a Bible that even a 4 year old would understand.

Acts 17:30-31 International Children’s Bible (ICB)
In the past, people did not understand God, but God ignored this. But now, God tells everyone in the world to change his heart and life. God has decided on a day that he will judge all the world. He will be fair. He will use a man to do this. God chose that man long ago. And God has proved this to everyone by raising that man from death!”

Who is that man???
I know you know the answer.
Acts of the Apostles were written by apostle Luke and he wrote these under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
And he wrote it long after Jesus was taken up to heaven.
Are these words in your Bible, check them out.
Now let us see a more scholarly Bible version and the same verses say:

Acts 17:30-32 Expanded Bible (EXB)
·In the past, people did not understand God, and he ignored this [or God overlooked such times of ignorance]. But now, God ·tells [commands] all people in the world to ·change their hearts and lives [repent]. [L Because] God has ·set [fixed; established] a day that he will judge all the world with ·fairness [righteousness], by the man he ·chose [appointed] long ago. And God has ·proved [or given assurance of] this to everyone by raising that man from the dead!”

When the people heard about ·Jesus being raised [L the resurrection] from the dead, some of them ·laughed [mocked; scoffed]. But others said, “We will hear more about this from you ·later [L again].”

Did the Bible say God, he appointed another God? No, God appointed a man he chose long ago.
God chose this man even before his grand parents of his mother was born.
Did the Bible say God, raised another God from the dead? No, God raised that man from the dead.
And that man is Jesus Christ.

Now the Bible speaks and we should go beyond what is written.
If the Bible speaks Jesus is that man chosen by God long ago and he is the same man, God raised from the dead - then we can only conclude - Jesus is not God
and that is the truth
the whole truth
and nothing but the truth[/QUOTE]

[That video, it looks like a nasty injury. Please wipe it!]

What was your take on the verses [posted by lymus] from the synoptic Gospels [Matt. 19:16; Mark 10:17; Luke 18:18]. Do you understand the comments of Jesus to mean that Jesus is not good?

Redemptionsong · Feb 1, 2020

The question is whether or not God has made himself known to us in Jesus Christ. If we get to know God in Jesus Christ, our first desire should be to serve Jesus Christ. And we have every reason to believe that God is in Jesus Christ, making Himself the image of God.

God alone is the Word [John 1:1]
Jesus Christ is the Word [Rev. 19:13]
Jesus Christ is God

God alone is good [Matthew 19:16]
Jesus Christ is good [1 Peter 2:22]
> Jesus Christ is God

God alone is perfectly faithful [Deut.7:9]
Jesus Christ is perfectly faithful [Rev. 19:11]
Jesus Christ is God

God alone is truth [Psalm 96:13]
Jesus Christ is truth [John14:6]
> Jesus Christ is God

God alone is the Rock [Deut. 32:4]
Jesus Christ is the Rock [1 Cor. 10:4]
> Jesus Christ is God

God alone baptises with the Holy Spirit [Psalm 51:11]
Jesus Christ baptises with the Holy Spirit [Luke 3:16]
> Jesus Christ is God

God alone is Judge [Psalm 96:13]
Jesus Christ is Judge [John 5:22]
> Jesus Christ is God

And there are many more syllogisms that can used to make the same point!

What we should also be asking is,
Can a man be the Word of God, without also being God?
Can a man baptise with the Holy Spirit, without also being God?
Can a man be truth, without also being God?
Does a man have the knowledge to judge perfectly, without also being God?

The answer must be, No!

74x12 · Feb 1, 2020

The fact Jesus is God is seen in Philippians 2:6-11. Here we see He was indeed in the "form of God" and made Himself a man. Then we find that as a man He was exalted to the highest place by God and given a name above all names that are named. And it is written and therefore it is infallible that whoever confesses Jesus Christ is Lord glorifies the Father. That's a fact. So we know that when we exalt Jesus Christ we exalt only the Father. As even Jesus said "Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me."

So according to Jesus when you believe in HIM(JESUS) you are believing only in the Father.

Philippians 2:6-11
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Matthew 28:19 says to baptize in the name (singular tense) of the Father, and of the Son and of the holy Spirit.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Acts 2:38 says to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. So the two scriptures must be harmonized. And the truth can be revealed. Jesus is the name(singular tense) of the Father and of the Son and of the holy Spirit. These three are one and the same.

MJFlores · Feb 1, 2020

Redemptionsong said:
What was your take on the verses [posted by lymus] from the synoptic Gospels [Matt. 19:16; Mark 10:17; Luke 18:18]. Do you understand the comments of Jesus to mean that Jesus is not good?

Mark 10:17-19 Good News Translation (GNT)
As Jesus was starting on his way again, a man ran up, knelt before him, and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to receive eternal life?”

“Why do you call me good?” Jesus asked him. “No one is good except God alone. You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit murder; do not commit adultery; do not steal; do not accuse anyone falsely; do not cheat; respect your father and your mother.’”

The Lord Jesus Christ is correct in saying that “No one is good except God alone."
It does not imply that he is bad.
God is good all the time from the creation of the universe to the present day
Jesus never sinned from the time he is born to the present day

The only God has no beginning while Jesus had a beginning
The only God is immortal and cannot die while Jesus died
The only God cannot be seen while Jesus was seen when he walked the earth

1 Timothy 1:17 New International Version (NIV)
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

That is the teaching of the apostles of Jesus Christ about the only God
Jesus was born, he was killed, and he was seen - therefore Jesus is not God

MJFlores · Feb 2, 2020

Redemptionsong said:
The question is whether or not God has made himself known to us in Jesus Christ. If we get to know God in Jesus Christ, our first desire should be to serve Jesus Christ. And we have every reason to believe that God is in Jesus Christ, making Himself the image of God.

Redemptionsong said:
What we should also be asking is,
Can a man be the Word of God, without also being God?
Can a man baptise with the Holy Spirit, without also being God?
Can a man be truth, without also being God?
Does a man have the knowledge to judge perfectly, without also being God?

The answer must be, No!

74x12 said:
The fact Jesus is God is seen in Philippians 2:6-11. Here we see He was indeed in the "form of God" and made Himself a man. Then we find that as a man He was exalted to the highest place by God and given a name above all names that are named. And it is written and therefore it is infallible that whoever confesses Jesus Christ is Lord glorifies the Father. That's a fact. So we know that when we exalt Jesus Christ we exalt only the Father. As even Jesus said "Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me."

Please be reminded that the Bible also accuses:

2 John 7 The Message (MSG)
Bible Gateway passage: 2 John 7 - The Message
There are a lot of smooth-talking charlatans loose in the world who refuse to believe that Jesus Christ was truly human, a flesh-and-blood human being. Give them their true title: Deceiver! Antichrist!

The Message (Bible) - Wikipedia

74x12 · Feb 2, 2020

MJFlores said:
Please be reminded that the Bible also accuses:

2 John 7 The Message (MSG)
Bible Gateway passage: 2 John 7 - The Message
There are a lot of smooth-talking charlatans loose in the world who refuse to believe that Jesus Christ was truly human, a flesh-and-blood human being. Give them their true title: Deceiver! Antichrist!

The Message (Bible) - Wikipedia

Maybe if you used a more literal translation you wouldn't be so confused on your theology.

2 John 7 World English Bible (WEB)
7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who don’t confess that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the Antichrist.

Yes, I love that scripture. Interesting it says He "came" in the flesh. That means He probably came from somewhere ... just a thought.

Here is another one to consider:

Philippians 2:6-11 World English Bible (WEB)

6 who, existing in the form of God, didn’t consider equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to the point of death, yes, the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also highly exalted him, and gave to him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, those on earth, and those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

If God is our Father

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